Why People Matter More Than Anything Else in Small Towns

You are listening to the Growing Small Town Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Today's episode is kind of ushering in a new era at Growing Small Towns. And to help us tell our story, we're joined by a very sparkly guest host, my dear friend Winona DeMaio-Ediger. Winona founded a national talent attraction company and she's worked in the field. In that work, she worked in economic development. So she just gets it. And we happen to share a really strong perspective and alignment about the fact that we feel humans are often neglected in this kind of broader conversation about how to grow a community. So I couldn't really imagine a more perfect person to join me in this episode to help us discuss the shift that we're making at Growing Small Towns. I'm Rebecca Undum, and I'm the founder of Growing Small Towns, and I've been your podcast host from the start. I have nearly two decades of experience in the field of organizational development. And at its core, what that is, it's the, the industry that helps companies think about, consider, develop, and prioritize the humans that choose to work for them. So back when I started Growing Small Towns, I just had this deep feeling that a lot of the things that I was talking about in C-suites that are the things that make companies great places to work, that those conversations belong on Main Streets because they're a lot of the same things that make communities great places to live. We also renovated a historic building on Main Street in my hometown, which is Oakes, North Dakota. Our population's about 1,800, and it has become Growing Small Towns headquarters. Over the past 4 years, I have supported, or my goal was to support, the dreamers and schemers in small towns all across the country. And through this podcast, we've actually reached people globally, which is just like never ceases to be cool to me. Today, uh, Winona and I are discussing how all of these different parts of my life have intersected up to today, uh, what I've learned along the way, and what we're dreaming about next. So whether this is your first episode or your 154th— and that actually is how many episodes we've released— we're so thankful that you're here. And we've never wavered in our belief that human development and investing in people is how small towns grow. So please, friends, enjoy this delightful chat about the past, present, and future of growing small towns and what it means for you and your community. Enjoy, friends. Hi, Winona, welcome back.

Hi, Becca! Oh my gosh, thank you so much.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Having you here today, we're kind of like switching roles. You're gonna, you're gonna be the host today, and I'm so excited about that. Um, you joined the board for Growing Small Towns this last year, and I did. I know we've been jamming a lot about what's to come, and so that's kind of what we're talking about. Yeah, today. You take it.

Yeah, we're gonna—

it's your show now. I'm just along for the ride.

My goodness, it's my show? Okay.

Have you always wanted to do this?

Welcome to the Growing Small Towns podcast. Uh, I am your host for the day only. My name is Winona, and we have here today the founder of Growing Small Towns, Rebecca Undum. Rebecca, today is, shall we say, the first podcast of the rest of your life, you could say. Yes.

It's really—

it's the new show in, in the new format and kind of we wanted to get into talking about some changes that are being made, some updates, some just really exciting kind of programmatic stuff, but also just what listeners can expect going forward. So tell us about it. How, how are things changing? How are things different?

Yeah. So a couple of big changes, I think. First of all, Just anybody that's done this or started one and quit. Yeah, I mean, that's really common because it's— yeah, it's kind of grueling, to be honest, to put out a cadence that you feel like you can really stick with. And I don't know, a few years we've done this now. This is our fourth year. We're going into our fourth year of podcasting, and I kind of landed on a biweekly cadence, but then I couldn't even actually fully stick to that, to be honest. Sourcing all the guests and just staying on top of it beyond like regular life was really hard. And so one of the things that we're doing is moving to a season-based format. And so technically, folks, you're listening to Season 5, Episode 1.

All right.

And we're going to— we're going to do a season in a year. So they'll start over in a calendar year, but there'll be two parts. And the reason for this— so, so, okay, back up. We're gonna do two parts. The, the show will be published from February to May, and then we'll take the summers off for planning and production. And then the second part of this, the season will air from September to December, and on a weekly cadence. So you'll get like a burst of shows in the spring, the summer will be off. It gives us some— it gives us not only good planning time, but I think good creative time.

Absolutely. Because I really—

I love a good theme. That's like a big deal to me. And I've never themed the podcast, so to speak. And now that we're breaking them into these specific parts, I think it allows us to be more adaptable to what's going on in the market. Like if something— if there's something really challenging kind of on the whole, then it might make some sense for us to devote part of a season to actually tackling that thing. So that's, that's the, that's the first thing. And then we are breaking up our content buckets a little bit so there's kind of a general cadence to what they should hear, what our guests or listeners will hear in episodes, like in terms of content too.

And tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so, um, we're going to continue with our general format of having cool people doing things in their small towns because that's what we like. Um, at the beginning of this episode, you should have heard, uh, a small town shout out, uh, which is a little piece of content where we can stand on this platform that we have and shout from the rooftops how cool you are. And so there's a Google number, you're going to hear that in the middle of this episode, that you can call and share with us. Because like, one of the things I know about people in small towns is we don't, we really don't celebrate enough. And I think the people that are doing great things, sometimes it's like, you want to be, you feel really proud of yourself. And maybe people are happy about your thing for like a minute. And then People move on really fast, and so I just want people to know that we are actually in their corner. And so to shout out our listeners is a really fun thing to get to do. So we encourage people to do that. Um, then, and in terms of actual episodes, cuz the small town shoutouts will be at the beginning of every episode. Um, so that's really cool. Then, um, there may be some just general topics that we feel need to be addressed. And so you may hear again, like our listeners may hear from people that have already been on the show. Um, and it used to be like we joked all the time about having like a 5-timers club. Like you've been on the show 3 times, your jacket's forthcoming, right? It's now more just like these are the, these are anchor guests that I know I can have a great conversation with and that have a unique perspective or position on the topic we want to discuss. Um, and then the third is the other thing with the Google number that you can call in and leave us a message specifically for the show, uh, is that if you have a specific people challenge that you're dealing with in your community, um, we wanna hear about it and we wanna try to offer some ideas or suggestions or strategies, uh, about how you might go about that differently. Um, because that's really, to me, I, Growing Small Towns, when I started it right in 2019, I, I've, I've actually said that in organizational development where I'm working with companies to help, uh, improve or sometimes define their employment culture, I, I would have these rich conversations with leaders in businesses and I would think to myself like, how do we take these conversations out of just C-suites and bring them onto Main Streets. Because this is— yeah, these are people. These are people are people. And in a community like mine of 1,800 people, the more that every single one of us is leveling up every day as— and when I say leveling up, I'm talking about incrementally getting better, like just a little bit better. You get a little bit better at knowing, let's say, your triggers, or you get a little bit better at regulating a response instead of kind of flying off the handle. To me, that is the quickest way for our communities to get better.

And so, and yeah, and Rebecca, I'll say too, just being, being in this space and working in economic development and talent attraction and community development nationally, you were one of the first people that I ever encountered who was really talking about personal development as community development. Right. And the overlap between those two things, the fact that effective and impactful and meaningful community development also has to encourage people to be their full selves, right? And be able to express themselves. And the way you were talking about that was so striking to me because I just wasn't hearing it anywhere else. And so I think it's really fun to hear you talk about weaving some of these things into not only the work that you're going to be doing with GST moving forward, but also the podcast format, making sure that these are touchstones, you know, that are being featured.

Well, okay, I love that. Thank you for that. I think I think it's interesting. I don't— I really don't believe that I say anything or provide anything that's actually revolutionary. It's actually very elementary and it's, it's foundational to like life. And I think it just gets kind of set aside, cast aside and forgotten about.

Yes.

Especially in, especially in the industry of economic development where The entire metrics of success for economic development are almost anti-people related. Like they are, they, they, they have nothing, you know, if you, if you go, okay, like we're killing it according to all the standards, even, even tax-based growth, which is, is absolutely paramount if especially for small towns, Winona, like if, if they do not grow their tax base and, and do that in a meaningful way where like revenues actually grow, right? Community revenues grow so that because the expenses side aren't going to shrink, that's— I mean, so again, that's the only ways you make money in a community. But that doesn't mean that anybody is actually happier living in your community, right? It doesn't equate to well-being, like holistic well-being. And so it's not that I'm saying those things don't matter, right? I'm actually just saying don't forget about the humans. So the last, you know, 4 years, I, I, you know, and I just, I just gave up the economic development contract for my own community at the end of this last year of '24, and I did it for 4 years. And I, I just, I, and, you know, and I then I got to network with a lot of people in economic development and I saw a lot of even where money goes, granting organizations. And what I still feel is truly missing is like there should always be parallel development for the humans receiving that money. Because like, I don't know, and I get that sounds nuts, but to me it's like, does it?

Isn't that interesting? I think it's interesting to acknowledge that an idea like that is actually revolutionary. Based on the status quo of today, right? But, but what you're saying also is it shouldn't be revolutionary. It actually is, if anything, just a return to really the basic human-centered, how do we support and nurture human beings, right? And their, their full selves, their ability to connect and thrive and prosper. And, and that's, that's the most important thing.

That's the thing. That, that allows people to call a place home.

Yeah.

That exact set of feelings that you just described, right? A sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense of fulfillment, and a sense of community. Yes. Right. It's literally social, emotional, intellectual, physical. It's holistic wellbeing. When people feel that way, they feel also then that connection to the environment that supports that for them. And so it's wild, right? Like, we're talking about residents, our population declining in rural communities, or it's like we're lucky if it's stagnating, right? Because urban centers tend to draw. And I mean, these are, you know, you can look this up as far as the census is what's happening. And like, my county, I think for the last 10 years hasn't actually lost much population, but it's declined. Right. And so we're all talking about, like, attracting residents, and I, I always want to chuckle, and I just want to be like, how exactly do we do that if we're not thinking about humans and how humans behave and how humans make decisions? I mean, yes, it's a— it's an incredibly human decision to choose to move.

It's I think it's one of the most human decisions. It's, it's, it has, you know, the greatest impact on your life, probably just, you know, closely behind who you marry. Like, right. Like just who and that. And they're both kind of the same thing. It's like, who are you spending your life with? Who are you spending your day-to-day time and energy with? And who are the, who are the people and the humans that you're interacting with? And it's So those, those choices are just so central to, to happiness. Right.

And yet, like, programmatically, there's not a state that I'm aware of that has any sort of program that would help anybody think about that.

It's—

and so what's, what's interesting. So again, okay, org development, I've, I've, I've been in for all of my career and that just means that I like, again, I work with companies, we talk about culture. So when we think about like, all culture is, is just how we do things around here. Okay. Like even if it's a company, it literally boils down to that. It's the unspoken rules that you kind of pick up just watching how people interact. And so I think what people forget is that culture and the absence of definition, like if you don't take hold of it and say, this is who we are, a culture still ends up evolving. Like some, you still have a culture.

Mm-hmm.

And the cultures that weren't defined or intentionally designed are the dysfunctional ones.

Mm-hmm.

So I think in communities, why wouldn't we at least apply that line of thinking? There's, there's a lot of barriers, Winona, that make it, that make it harder, right? Like in a company, you've got a boss, you've got a structure, you, you've got a way to like, step it out and walk it out. It's harder to do that in kind of a democratized society, like a community. And I, I get that, right? There's— and also, let's just be real. Like, I always say to companies, like, hire and fire to your values. Like, you decide who you are, you hire and fire to. There are a few people in my town I wouldn't mind firing.

It's like, hey, you heard it here first, folks. Yeah.

I mean, it's— I, I'm honestly, like, for real, not talking about specific people in my brain. But when you have those moments where you're just like, you get out of here, you know? Yes, it would be.

If only. Yes. Only.

Um, and so like that actual, that level of control doesn't exist in community. And so these things like building culture in a business and building culture in a community are not a one-for-one exchange. I still truly believe that there's value in thinking about the parallels and looking for ways like, what could we do? What, what could we do to positively shape the culture of this community? What's missing? What do we need to provide? What do people need and how do we get that for them? And, you know, we do communities, economic development, community development. We do a great job of thinking of like services, right? Key services. Those are just, those are, those are not what's gonna set you apart in any way. Like they're not. Yes, you're ba— the basics have to be covered, but if all you're doing is covering the basis, there's a lot of room for dreaming and scheming, right? Like what else do we need? Um, and I think the best, the best thing about this is that, uh, according to Gallup, by 2030, 30% of our workforce is gonna be Gen Z. That's only 5 years from now.

Wow.

And I don't know about the folks listening to this, but I don't feel like we're exactly ready for that. It's a really cool time to me that we anchor down into this and start talking about it. Like, what is our strategy for becoming a more friendly community for that generation? What do they need? What do they look for? And how do we How do we find ways to give them more of that without sacrificing everything you've been? Because who we were matters. I mean, really, I know that. And we're not going to outpace our population decline. We're not going to become a place that young people choose without some intentional effort.

I love this. I think there's so much to all of this that honestly, we could do 30 more episodes based on just the last few sentences you said. There's just so— it's so— there's so much substance there. I feel like it might be helpful to actually back up a little bit. And we talked about this episode almost being a little bit of a how the sausage is made at Growing Small Towns episode, right?

Yeah, right.

And at the risk of maybe taking this metaphor too far, I think it might be an interesting and helpful exercise. There might be some people listening to this this is their first episode. This is their first interaction with you, right? Yep. And I think that talking about sort of what have been all of the different ingredients to the Growing Small Towns sausage, if you will, that you have been making behind the scenes for the past few years. I'm thinking about your background in org development. I'm thinking about your building. I'm thinking about the local economic development, some of the consulting on a broader scale, all of that kind of stuff. Just giving people a picture of what have all those ingredients been and how are we sort of reorganizing them going forward. But let's talk about where you have been, right? And where Growing Small Teams has been.

Yeah, I love that. Okay. So, and the reason I felt this was important, by the way, is just because one of the things I think if we can, if we can support more people in community to adopt a generally entrepreneurial mindset, which is, is a way of thinking about the world. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have to start a business, but it's actually a way of thinking about the world, right? That's actually one of my core premises is like, if we could—

I love it.

We could help more people kind of open up their thinking and think more creatively, flexibly, and they could—

we—

they would feel kind of the room, whether psychologically or just in, in practice, like in reality, to be more iterative, like actually iterate. Just know that, like, because I, I, you know, all the these times I've worked with people that are starting businesses, one of the things I see that, that slows them up or just stops them completely is that they somehow think that somebody has all the answers that they're supposed to. And then they, they, you know, they feel like, well, if I don't have all the answers, I'm not ready to start. And it's just like Oh, love, you're never actually going to have all the answers. And you— it literally, by its very nature, you learn as you go.

And that's one of the most empowering truths, I think, to really, really take in. And it's one of the hardest ones to learn and believe and integrate. But once you do and you kind of move through the world in a way of there's no one out there holding all of the you know, the answers on high and, and I don't have them and someone else does. And it kind of also creates a we're all in this together mentality because we all are just figuring it out, right? Yep.

And I think the other thing with that is, and I've said this over the years, that like there, there are absolutely processes that you can learn to do things better. I mean, there's no doubt about that. And I encourage that, right? But when it comes to actually running your business, everything that's involved in it, from what you offer to where you show up in marketing, to how you communicate, to who you're actually trying to reach.

Mm-hmm.

There, there, I mean, if we look at it this way, Winona, like, there actually are not two exact businesses that are exactly the same on the entire planet. And the reason for that is because humans are involved.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And so pesky, complicated little humans. Yep.

Humans that just refuse to be robots. Dang that.

Yeah.

So I, I think that's a truth that I get. I mean, clearly I get very excited about this topic, but it's like that actually uniquely positions you in a way that nobody, like you have, you have a set of advantages that actually nobody else has. Your exact design, right? So there's, there you can have a perfect process and like do it imperfectly because of the way you do it. It's different than what the person who created it wanted. You know, it's just, it's so fascinating to me. So when I started Growing Small Towns, I definitely had, um, kind of, again, these core beliefs have always driven the work actually.

Right.

Um, but I'll be honest, you know, So we, we start, we have a building, right? The build the building and kind of having a home base for this work, having a place that I owned and controlled and could like fill with the vibe that I wanted to bring to this community. It was really important to me, you know. And then of course, there's all like the history and the love and that it was my grandparents, like of all of that, right? That comes along too for this conversation. But I mean, the questions I get the most from people that reach out, if they've listened to an episode or we've talked about the renovation itself, was just like, financially, how did you do it? And so I'm going to share a couple of things about that just because I think it is really important. So our building, uh, is not owned by the nonprofit. That was kind of the first decision that I had to make, and it was a hard one. And I talked to our attorneys, I talked to our accountants, and, and all honestly what it came down to is that, um, I, my husband and I were going to have to sign a personal guarantee on this loan either way. Like whether the nonprofit owned it or an LLC, a separate LLC owned it. We were going to have to personally guarantee the note. And it's not a small note, I'll just say that. Like, the renovation— we personally financed this renovation. That's, yeah, that's how it got done. So when it, you know, so, so then the accountant was simply like, it actually doesn't make any sense that you would personally guarantee something that you don't then own. Because she said, then you have no, you have no because a nonprofit, and I think too, it's a, it's a way of running a business. It's not a business model. I think people need to understand that, right? Growing Small Towns as an, as a 501 has a charitable purpose. The building is separate from it. Growing Small Towns rents out the facility from the LLC. So, um, so all of like the donations that we got early on Didn't go into the renovation. They went into equipping the building with what we needed to carry out the mission of the organization. And so I, I even think locally that has not never been clear to people. And again, if they listen to this or they don't, that's not really my deal. I tell this to the people that are genuinely trying to figure this stuff out on their own because it is so hard.

It is so, it's so complicated. And, you know, I think in hindsight that you absolutely made the right call with, I think, good you know, good information that you had. And it's also, it's also, I think, one of those things that there's not necessarily a right answer, right? Like you were just navigating totally what you were doing and you were taking on a huge project.

The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston in Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small. It's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701-203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait. To hear from you. Today's small town shout out is for Celia Simpson in Sherburn, Minnesota, population 1,137. Celia shared with us, uh, that they just passed a successful brand new school build referendum. If you've never been through a local referendum for anything related to your school. Maybe you don't know how big of a deal this is, but Celia, congratulations, and congratulations to the town of Sherburn. Way to go, guys.

I'm curious, Rebecca, like, when you were starting the, you know, taking on the building renovation, and how did— did you just envision Growing Small Towns being anchored out of the building? Were those things always in, like, closely intertwined? Did one not exist without the other in your mind? Like, yes, tell me more about that.

The latter is true.

Okay.

I can't see Growing Small Towns existing without a home base.

Mm-hmm.

Um, 4 years later, I feel differently about that. And that's part of, again, why we're sharing, because you learn as you go. And so I, so really right away, I mean, I started doing economic development in the beginning of '21. We were still renovating our building. Growing Small Towns had the contract for that work, not me personally. And that's because I had enormous— I had an enormous overhead. I had an enormous bill to pay and take care of. That was no joke at all. And so that was so— and also it was like, well, that's adjacent and close enough to what we're trying to do. Like, there's a lot, there's a lot of overlap.

Right.

So originally, uh, we took on the contract for economic development here locally at the beginning of '21. Like, the building was still under renovation. And, and actually, again, I don't, I don't know that a lot of local people even understand this, which isn't really all that important, but Growing Small Towns had the contract for economic development. Um, and that's because Growing Small Towns had real bills to pay, you know, like they had rent to the LLC to pay. Um, and Growing Small Towns, like, per the lease agreement, has all of the overhead. And so, so realistically, and I'm sharing this because it's like, you will figure out what you have to do to pay the bills. And it wasn't like an enormous— it wasn't like an enormous departure from the work in any way. Um, but I've said this publicly too, which I feel like Banker people are like, don't give that woman a microphone anymore. Like she is not allowed to talk. But I have said to get the loan, I had to create a business plan, but your business plan, and everybody actually knows this and, and practicality, but for some reason we act as if you can perfectly plan your business model. You're you. I, I put all sorts of things in there of things that I wanted to offer and what I thought we maybe could generate for revenue. What we actually ended up doing, there's pieces of it that are, that are true, but there, the rest of it is just like, well, okay, we tried that and it's not, it's not really working. And then you tweak and you adjust and you shift. So big picture, I'm just like, I'm not telling you to lie when you make a business plan, but just—

No, give it your best shot. But it also, I mean, it's going to change. It's going to look different. It's going to look like a best shot from someone who doesn't have a business yet. Right? Exactly. I made my business plan, like, you know, sipping whiskey in my co-founder's basement. And that's, you know, I, we definitely departed from the original, uh, plan, but it also evolved in ways that were really beautiful and we stayed true to some of the core things as well. Right, right.

It isn't, uh, I, I just think we're not, I don't know that we talk about that enough.

Mm-hmm. Yes. The, and I think in your case with Growing Small Towns, it, you know, we've been talking about this a lot the past couple months of just, you got, you've got this thing off the ground in amazing, special ways and lots of different ways as well. Like you, you have a beautiful restored historic building, right? In the, on the main street of your town. You have a nonprofit, you've been doing org development and speaking, you've been doing local economic development. There's all these different buckets, and it's really, it's really impressive work, and it's a really impressively diverse, um, you know, sausage of work, we could say.

It's just so diverse.

Exactly. If I had a dime, you know, um, but I think that also just You have been doing what, what I consider to be very courageous, um, work recently of really examining each aspect of that work and figuring out what actually does make sense here. What is aligned with the work that I want to be doing the way I can be most valuable? And also, how do we make it make sense to the outside world? Because that's the other thing you were so— there were these aspects of Growing Small Towns that were so anchored in Oakes, North Dakota, because you had the building and you had the local economic development. But, you know, as we've talked about, it was a little bit confusing to people outside of the region sometimes that you aren't just a local provider of sort of services and physical space, right? And tackling that has been tricky and complicated. And, and I think you'll be fine talking through this too, pretty emotional, right? Like, there's been a lot to kind of unravel there.

So yeah, of course. Of course I'm fine to share all of this because I think, again, it's like a woman in a neighboring community, she and I were talking and she really just let it all out, like how hard of a time she's having. She's a busy mom. She's got 3 kids. She's got a business. Her husband farms. There's a lot of comparisons between me and this woman. And I looked at her and I was just kind of echoing kind of my reflections, kind of again, like, truly just listening and creating a space that she, that she could have this conversation. And she looked at me, she goes, I always just thought you had your shit together. And I was like, yeah, well, nobody does. Like, like, first of all, like, truly nobody does. And there's a part of me that wants to, like, recoil at that because I certainly am not out here, like, putting on airs, right? Like, oh, like, look, look at me, I'm so successful. But I think just the fact that I do show up, especially through a podcast, it probably does give some sort of illusion that I really have this on lock, right? But that is not— that is not an intentionally built facade. It's just, especially on the podcast, I think the podcast lets me show up in my most authentic way. And I do feel like I have that on lock when I'm— when I'm super aligned, like when my work and who I am is super aligned. I do. Then it's— there's nothing— there's no facade about it at all. You're actually just seeing who I am. So I think there's lots of lessons in there. Like, again, my God, we could unpack that one for—

Absolutely.

But yeah, this, this, so this kind of call to instead of just let's get in, you, you on my board along with the rest of my board at our in-person retreat last October, what you challenged me to do was almost say, okay, what if we, what if we just allowed you, Rebecca, as the owner and the kind of the person trying to pull all this together, what if we let you or allowed you some time and space to not just hustle your face off to hold it all up? And like, yes, what if some of the things you're holding up you could drop or shift? You know, what, what if some of the ways that you were cobble, like cobbling this whole business together, what if there, where, where can we align it? Where can we streamline it? Where can we simplify? What can we let go of? Like, those were all questions that were a part of this process, and it was brutal, Winona. I'll tell you that honestly, the hardest thing was that I felt like a failure. I felt silly and I felt stupid for not having— for not taking that time sooner, for not doing it somehow at the beginning. I just felt—

Right.

Which is as if you could have.

Right. Right.

And I guess I want to share that because at any point, especially those of you listening to this that have businesses, um, I, oh, I just encourage you to listen to your, to your intuition and listen to your inner voice. Um, because I had lots of moments in the, especially, especially in the local work, the very localized economic development work. And I, of course, I'm, I'm one to like, um, dispel. This is something I'm working on in therapy. I'm working on this in therapy, Winona. Where—

shout out to therapy!

Shout out to therapy. We love our therapists.

Is—

and by the way, I've said this so many times, I feel like every chance I get I've got to say it— I do virtual therapy, and it is warm, and it is safe, and it is lovely, and it is therapeutic and healing. And so if you need help, don't be afraid to find a virtual therapist. It's not as weird as it feels.

Okay, so absolutely, right?

So, so one of the things that I had to, I had to work out though, um, was that— so one of the things I'm working out is that I, I tend to deflect pain with humor. Okay, so I said all the time, like, either almost every time I was either on a stage or in a thing, I would be like, Yeah, I don't really belong in economic development. Like, I'm a reluctant economic developer. These are words that I used to say, right? And there was a truth to those words that deserved and warranted a bit more attention a bit earlier.

Mm-hmm.

Because it—

what do you think that would have looked like, Rebecca, to give those— to give that a little more attention sooner?

Oh man, what a great question. I, I mean, I think, I think I, I, I would have needed to carve out a bit more intentional time.

Mm-hmm.

To, to, okay, so, so an, a way to practically do this would even be to take a moment at the end of every week and reflect back on what were the times this week that you felt the most you, right?

And then I love that prompt, right?

It's so, it's so centering and grounding, right? And then on the flip side, it's like, what are the things that you were involved with this week that completely depleted your energy and made you feel like an outsider or made you feel like you didn't belong? I continually said out loud that I didn't belong in economic development. So it was like But I was doing it in kind of a tongue-in-cheek way, and I literally used to be like, one of these things is not like the other. And I mean, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so cute and funny. But there's pain under that, and there was reality under that. And I'm not going to say I wish I had or I should have. I'm not going to do that to myself because this all came about exactly as it was supposed to for me.

It definitely did. It definitely did. And I think even the, the fact that you had, you, you had a group of people at that board retreat who are all not only kind of shining a light on some of these truths for you, but at the same time offering to carry some of the weight or, or catch the things that you, that we were inviting you to consider dropping, right? And I think even that is worth acknowledging that, that to do that on your own might truly just not have been available to you. That didn't feel safe. It wasn't safe. It was, it was big. It was scary. You were, you were going and going it alone and holding so much alone. And that's just real. And I think a lot of people listening probably feel that way in some area of their life. And I think that's important.

It's a huge, it's a huge deal. It's a huge deal because I also don't think it doesn't serve us that well to look back on something that we actually maybe wish we had done sooner or had done differently with, like, with the lens of shame.

Right. It's so easy to do that, though. I am such a regretter. I'm like an Olympian-level regretter. I do that all the time. I click into that so easily. But it is so important to just to look back with compassion for the self that you were and the reality that you were in, which is you didn't have the tools or the space or the safety or the support. Exactly. You know, to explore that. Right, right.

And just because maybe with some shift that you've made now, just because you have a relief, it's kind of like you can look back and be like, I wish I could have given myself that sooner. Yes, that's an okay way to look at it because you're showing compassion and grace for your previous self. Right. But I just— I can't let your comment about support go kind of just kind of glossed over. That's one of the things I spend a lot of time when I go on the road and I'm talking to small towns. I kind of have, you know, one of the, one of the key audiences I love to talk to are like the dreamers and schemers in a small town. Like, oh yeah, people that literally wake up and are like, oh my God, it'd be so cool if we— and those people just exist. And they're not necessarily like city council people or chambers of commerce. They're not necessarily those people. Now it's the raddest thing in the world for a town. When those people are all—

when they are schemers.

That's so correct. But I think it's a mistake to be like, the only place that things happen in a small town is economic development. Wrong. Nope.

That's so wrong.

Patently not true. So like, talking to those people and helping them curate the support that they need, because the truth is, I didn't have the support to make the changes I needed to make. But this whole thing exists. Because of the support I had in place to begin with. And the support you need to start something, it might shift to different kind of support that you need to sustain something. It's also just recognizing that one of our primary jobs is to know— I mean, again, this is my opinion. I think the reason I was put on the planet is to figure out who I really am and figure out how to use what I've been given. Right? Role number one. And then the second thing is to figure out how do I find or get the people around me that see that, honor that, support it, and just that network of support, because nobody can do any of this alone. It's absolutely impossible.

Yeah. And I think this past year, I think, has been a real reckoning for you that I've been honored to be a part of, which is really looking at how did I I, I, I made this all work, but is the way that it's currently working working for me? Right? And, and that I think is a question that it, it naturally opens when you're an entrepreneur that you reach a juncture like that. I, I would say it probably naturally happens every few years that you really have to, or just start, maybe you don't have to, but you're invited to look at things, right? I remember when we did. It was kind of our first round of hiring at my company, and all of a sudden these new brilliant people that I respected so much and was so excited they were joining the team were asking me things like, why do we do it this way? And I had to both, you know, explain the why, but also pause and sit in, is this the best way to do it, or is this just kind of, we were trying to get a company off the ground and this is how we did it, and maybe it's not the best way. And, and, and You know, speaking of how do we honor what was real in the past and how things have been done, and then exploring how do we want to do things in the future, I think that is a very relevant question for small towns to be asking themselves. And it's what— and it's the question you, as the leader of Growing Small Towns, have been asking yourself these past few months. And I really admire the honest and courageous way you've been doing that.

Thanks. It's, it's hard. It's hard to—

it's hard.

Economic development, you're also— it's public sector work.

Yes.

And, and one of the things that I shared with, like, when I kind of made the announcement to the public, like, hey, this is what's happened, like, the Economic Development Board knew in June. I mean, I gave them a 6-month notice. Um, I just hadn't really shared, like, you guys knew it, the board knew it, we were behind the scenes, people knew it. Um, but one of the things I shared was just that, um, as, as the economic development person, I often felt— now some of this I'm going to say, it's probably just me and how I'm wired. Right? But I felt this compulsion and almost burden, which is a strong word, but it's kind of bordering on like a burden. I felt like this mantle of responsibility to get involved with and somehow care about everything going on in the town because a lot of that was reflected to me. Like, if I would do something in good faith, like celebrate something going on with the business, I would get messages from people asking me why I've never called them out or shout them, you know, shouted them out. Like I would get that. And I, it just, it was just so exhausting and hard and hard for me. And I don't think everybody in economic development has that experience. I don't, I mean, I think it really depends on who you are. But what I know is that at the end of the day, I would like not have the energy for the things I really was passionate about. And that's a disservice to my town.

Yes.

And to myself. Right. Like, because, I mean, one thing I've joked about over the years is like, I'm the kind of person like, you want me in your corner because I—

Oh, yeah, I really— there is no cheerleader as amazing as Rebecca Undum. I really do.

And I love to stand in people's corners. Right. I, I didn't like how public sector work kind of forced me to distill that. Like, it was like, there are no corners here. It was kind of how I—

Right. Yes.

You can't wholeheartedly with your whole self get behind things because then other people feel alienated. And I was like, no, but this is, you know, so it was that, that was, that was a big, that was a big thing for me. And then to, for heaven's sake, like, I quit working for other people. In 2016. And I always joke, like, I just don't really like to be told what to do. There is some truth to that for sure. But I think the other thing is that, like, I really love the flexibility of having a brain spark and being able to do something with it, you know, without a bunch of red tape and without a lot of extra.

Well, there's nothing better than following a brain spark, right?

I mean, we love a good brain spark around here.

We do. We do.

And economic development, by its very nature, because it's often funded with public sector dollars, like taxpayer dollars, it won't move that fast. And I actually logically understand that it can't and really realistically probably shouldn't. But I always felt at odds with that. Yeah, I hated how I felt a lot. It was like brutally honest, right?

It was.

It was just like, this can't— this, this doesn't feel— it didn't feel like the best of myself could come to that position, could or was able to like easily land in that position.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, acknowledging the truth of that, what can you also say about what doing that work locally, you know, the perspective that it gave you or how it helped you grow or understand the experience of, of people that you'll be working with going forward?

I thank you for beautifully segueing into what does this mean?

Of course.

Oh, you're so— you're so good at this.

Oh my goodness. Thank you.

I'll bring you back and have you do this again. Hit hit.

I can't wait to get my jacket.

Oh my gosh. I'm already working on the embroidery, so it's on its way. What it did was, I think, I think if nothing else, I definitely have a deeper well of compassion, empathy for people that are doing this work in very small places.

Yeah.

Because I, again, and I don't, from that empathy, I wanna be a place for those people where you can commiserate with me, but then please let's figure out something to do about it. And like, and I don't ever wanna feed into the narrative that big cities get everything and we get nothing. There's a lot of sentiment around that that I think gets perpetuated, and it just doesn't feel good to me.

It's very defeatist. And of course, there is some truth to it. Of course, that frustration is real and valid.

Yep, absolutely.

However, where does that get us to kind of live in that space for too long? I don't think it gets us very far.

I don't think so either. And the idea of having to convince anybody else that we're worthy of something, it's just like, what if instead we just anchored down into the belief that we are worthy and that we've maybe got what we need and we just haven't tapped into the potential that's already here, right? And the potential lives in the people that are there. And I just—

I don't know.

I mean, again, I've absolutely been accused of being Pollyanna about this, and the truth is, I might be. And I'd rather move through the world with that much hope and belief in humanity than skepticism, doubt, and fear. It just doesn't work for me. And I honestly, unless you're actually being chased by something that could kill you, fear, I don't think, is a good motivator for most of our decisions, right?

Yeah, we definitely hold reverence and space for people being chased by bears right now. Like, we absolutely validate your fear. You can be afraid and you should be. But if there's not a bear behind you, let's not live in that space. Let's try to move, move out of that. And I think, I think you, you anchoring into the work locally and really living out some of those very real frustrations day to day with what it does look like to do the work locally has allowed you both just a deep, yeah, a deep well of empathy and understanding for people doing the work in that capacity and also just a path forward and sort of upward, right, out of that. And, and that's, that's a big, that's a big thing that's informing the future of GST. And so I'm very glad that you did that work, and I'm very glad that you are closing that chapter as well. I think it's— I think the timing of it is, uh, just spot on.

It's exciting, you know. It is exciting now, kind of knowing that instead of— if I— so like, if Growing Small Towns ends up at IEDC, for example, the, you know, the Economic Development Conference, like national conference in the United States. To know that we'll be showing up there not as a peer, like we're not there to get better at economic development. We're there to help you do a facet of economic development. Better. And it, yes, the people development piece of it is a facet that truly I think we aren't seeing a lot of people focus on. I mean, you know, one of the things we talked about, um, is if, if you're doing business retention and expansion visits as an economic development person right now, again, some of our smallest towns are like, we don't do those cuz we don't have time. And I full, fully understand that, right? But my question is just like, are you asking your employers if one of the barriers to their growth is their own leadership or their own culture, because that's what we're trying to figure out, right? Like, how do we, how do we help you stay here and how do we help you expand? What's getting in the way of letting you expand? Right now, a common answer is workforce.

Mm-hmm. In fact, it's often the number one answer.

Correct.

And the data reflects that. And And yet it's often put on the back burner or not addressed in a human-centered way. Right.

And so one of the things I'm encouraging— I mean, and again, it's a lens that I've lived for a couple of decades now. So this is not just like, oh, I discovered this yesterday. Right? Like, this is the work I've been doing all along. But it's—

We are live. Rebecca is discovering this right now.

Immediate brain spark. Let's record a podcast about it. It's, it's, it's thinking about the fact that, um, well, and again, I, as an economic developer, how do you say that to your businesses? Like, you might be the problem. Again, my joke is like, well, what if you suck to work for? Is it that people don't wanna work or do you actually suck to work for? Actually, and let's fill in, like, do you suck to volunteer for? These are, these are people problems that communities have. We can't get anybody to volunteer. I hear that all the time. And again, I can't look at them and be like, I bet you suck to volunteer for. But the question is like, what if we do?

Right?

And have we, have we considered that we're the problem? Because the other thing here, Winona, is like, there's agency in that. Yes, absolutely. I always want people to take a look at what they can do. And you know what we can't do? We can't make people do stuff. No, whatever it is, if it's working for you or volunteering for you. And so we do, we've gotta, we've gotta think differently about what motivates people, what gets people to say yes to stuff, and be willing to change the way we're doing things.

Yes, absolutely. And I think you're, you're hitting on another facet of Growing Small Towns evolution right now that I think would be fun to touch on and give a little preview of as well, which is, um, some new work and some new offerings that are really focused on, uh, kind of org development through a small town lens and supporting the business communities of small towns in their professional development and growth in a very Rebecca way. So tell, tell us more about that.

Yeah, so kind of going back to that question of like Are we asking questions about culture of our employers?

Mm-hmm.

Um, I'm gonna guess that most aren't. And, and sometimes honestly it might be because why ask a question that you don't actually want the answer to? Because if you don't, yes. You know, if you, if they say like, oh God, yeah, we haven't done any sort of leadership development on our team ever, you know, then you have that answer and you're like, well, now what? And so I'm hoping that Growing Small Towns can be a potential source of an answer for that if you have the courage to ask and you get that answer, right? Mm-hmm. So we're looking at partnering with local, either local economic development groups. I really think this makes sense for kind of associations that are regionalized because oftentimes there's a hub that's in a bigger community and then they want to provide resources and support to those rural communities, but they a lot of times don't know how, right?

Correct.

But that's where, that's kind of where the hub is. And so we would be able to partner with those people and offer good leadership development and just general people development as an extension of their association, basically saying this is a support service that you get to offer your economic development or your local employers, excuse me. And we are the ones providing it. So there's kind of two, two things. And again, these are tests. Yeah. The work itself is not a test. It's been tried and true for two decades. I— so, and again, I, I follow Gallup, I follow workforce trends. The things that I've been doing internally with companies for 20 years matter just as much today as they did 20 years ago, if not more, actually. Because absolutely there's a few other trends that we need to be aware of. And there's— on this, uh, in our show notes, we'll make sure to link to a couple of podcasts. So there's a couple of podcasts, um, that I've listened to recently just about the actual critical level of isolation and loneliness that's like just perpetuating everybody. So, you know, there's technology that's limiting our social skills. And because this is— people development is social skills, like relationally working with other humans, right? It really matters if you're the leader of humans in the sense that people report to you and look to you for direction. Then this is— it is— it is your responsibility. I also think there's just good relational human skills that all of us can get better at, right? So for sure, we're testing out, we're testing out these ways of offering this, but the material is solid and has been, it's steeped in research and it's great. Um, so kind of the two ways is like if virtual is what you need to do because you just either don't have the budget or can't pull people together, you know, maybe, maybe you've tried to host events and you can't get people to come. Oh my God, I know that feeling. It's the worst.

Yep.

It's not a great feeling. So you can, you can work with us virtually to offer this kind of development to your local employers, or you can actually bring us for kind of a day-long intensive where we come together. I come to you, you coordinate the people, and we work together to develop them. And for both of those offers, we actually do offer a deep dive with the economic developer, or if it's a couple of you, depending on what your association's organized like, Um, because we want to customize as much of the material to your specific needs as we can. Those are, those are a couple of things that we're testing out. And yeah, I'm really excited about it.

It's so exciting. And I, I really just want to invite the listeners right now to close your eyes and just imagine, imagine every employer, every leader of a business in your town getting together in a room and imagine all of them getting a day's worth of training in people-centered leadership and how to relate and take care of each other and social skills and org development and culture. And then they disperse back out into the community and they each take even a thread of that day with them, rock with them, and they treat their employees a little bit different because of it. We can, I mean, Rebecca, one of your Rebecca-isms is, is same rock, bigger ripple, right? So imagine the ripple of just a business community kind of lifting up to another level of, of treating people better, of, of embodying their own agency and leadership and, and power in a way that is healthy and evolved and I mean, I hope everyone is feeling very tingly while they're imagining that in their, in their town, because I think it's a really big deal. It is.

You know, earlier we were talking about how hard it is kind of to conceptualize the transference of like good org development principles with culture to a community. That's how we do it. Yes. I think one of the easiest ways to shift the culture of a town is to help the employers shift their internal culture in a positive way. Because like you said, so those leaders— so let's just take the leaders. The leaders go out and they treat their employees a little bit differently. The most beautiful thing about the investment in humans is that they take their improved skill sets with them everywhere.

Mm. I love it.

It doesn't— yeah, I get like, I literally got a lump in my throat when I said that.

I know I'm tearing up. We're crying about leadership development over here. Yep.

And again, Like, leadership development doesn't sound sexy or interesting at all. And, and the other thing too is it's one of the first things to get cut and cast aside. And I am so freaking tired of that, Winona, because again, they take this improved skill set everywhere. So then they go home and they treat their families a little bit differently. Every committee or group that they're a part of in the town, they, they bring that lens of thinking differently about how to interact with people. They take it with them everywhere and then they come back. They treat their employees better and that employee leaves changed.

Yes, it's literally— that's not an overstatement. No, it's, it's, it is. It's just, yeah, if anything, it might be, it might be understating the impact of something like that. Of just, I think, I think there's so much potential here to really, to really make waves. In, in small communities and really affect change and not also just have the same people who are always in the room. What do you say? The same 10 people, same 10 problem, right?

Like just kind of the—

because they're, they're already doing the work. They're already, they're already doing the, the self-reflection and the development and the, they, they have that want. But a lot of people who are running small businesses and small communities, they also don't have the time and the energy and the budget to pursue this type of development for themselves and their teams. Right. And that's, you know, just circling back even to how we've been talking about the evolution of your business, Rebecca. Like, you understand that viscerally. But this is a way that we can get, get everyone in a room and really invite them into this work in a collective way. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, it's taking C-suite conversations to Main Streets.

Yes.

Our local employers. They don't just need technical development, they need people development. And it's just to be clear, I'm not saying that nobody has a good culture, you know, but I am saying I don't, that I, I haven't seen where this is a very clear, like economic development, they're not prioritizing this. And I, and one of the things you and I talk about a lot is just like, I, I believe in my soul that the metrics of economic development need to change and shift and adapt to encompass some of these, like, quality of life indicators and metrics. I do.

Today, I believe that so, so deeply as well. And just so the listeners know, this is a frequent topic of, you know, dirty martini-fueled 10-minute audio messages back and forth at 10 PM to each other. We will be—

yes.

Just ranting and raving about what this could look like, what the metrics could be, and how that could just crack open so many things. Um, that is the level of nerdery happening. It's happening here.

Pretty dang geeky. But when I got into it, I was like, I had this sense of, I'm gonna help change this industry from the inside. Yes. And after 4 years of taking a run at that I'm kind of back to, and maybe I can shift it from the outside, you know. I still have my eye on that general prize though. I do. Um, because I just think, I'm not saying tax-based growth doesn't matter. I'm going to say that again for all of my hardcore traditionalists that are out there like, but what about tax-based growth?

Yep, absolutely.

Matters. And so does— I'm just going to call out something that is really, really prevalent in North Dakota, and I think the Midwest in general, is our passive-aggressive nature in meetings. So I don't care what meeting you're talking about, I've seen this level of passive-aggressive behavior happen at church council meetings, like church meetings. It's, it's an inability to Speak your mind and do it in a way that's honest and open. So we call it North Dakota nice or Minnesota nice, and really it's just passive aggression, and it's one of the most damaging kind of sets of behaviors that govern people. I mean, really, it's so— so what if that, again, tax-based growth and less passive-aggressive meetings?

Yes, absolutely. And business attraction and nurturing your current employees and, and taking care of their growth and advocating for them, you know. Yep.

And same with on the community level, right? New resident recruitment and the development, love, care, and nurturing of the people that already live here. It's a both-and thing, right?

It totally is.

And it's just, it truly is just recognizing that I, and I again, uh, help it, like anybody that wants to like directly challenge me on this, like please do. What better investment can we make?

Mm-hmm.

Than in the humans that are making stuff happen in our towns, right?

Every new business that's the heart of it.

It's a human. Every new idea that gets, you know, actually implemented and funded, if it was grant funded or otherwise, That was a human.

Mm-hmm. Those big, impressive, splashy job numbers, right? With a new business attraction win and we are bringing in 100 jobs, 500 jobs, 50 jobs. What we're really talking about is a human being working a job, being able to provide for themselves and their family, and hopefully not having terrible experience for 8 hours of their day, 5 days a week, right? Like that, talking about that in an honest way. Addressing that.

Yeah. And again, like, I, I just want to be truly— the overall goal of this is a couple things, right? It's agency, it's recognizing that we all have a role to play and that we can do something to shift these things. That's first, right?

Yeah.

And then I think the second part of it is just what does it look like to operate from an actual place of hope. And because that's, to me, that's where it's at. It's not about fear.

It's really the only way.

Yeah. It's not waiting for someone else to come and save us. Right. So that's what's up, Wynne.

That's what's up.

That's what's up.

Yeah. I'm curious to know, Rebecca, this has been a year of a lot of growth and evolution for you professionally and personally. What do you know today that you didn't know a year ago?

Hmm.

What a great question.

I think so. One of the things I did at the end of '24 was I went back and looked, kind of took a long view of the previous year. And I asked myself, what would I thank the year for? Like, what would I say? Thanks, 2024. Like, I love this exercise. Yeah. And then the other one was like, uh, fuck off, 2024.

Like, important to have that balance.

That's right. Right. And so I'm going to share with you, because the thing that I know now that I didn't know a year ago was actually my thank you note. To 2024. And I think I now know in my 44th year, and so I don't know if it was that I turned 44. I mean, it is a pretty great number. I don't know.

Oh, yeah.

But I think what I know now that I didn't know a year ago is me.

Hmm.

I think I know myself in a way that I didn't exactly know. And that hasn't— that's come— that's hard fought, by the way. I mean, that's— it takes a lot of effort to really get to understand yourself. And then also along with that is kind of that universal sense of, and I really am okay. And so that once you can do that, I think, or once you get some level of that— now, let's not Again, this is not any sort of statement of like, I have got it together and look at me. But when I'm really struggling, I actually can ground back into the truth of, okay, why? And then as you start, you can ask yourself good questions like, why is this feeling not great? What's going on within me? Right? And I just think once you develop a stronger sense of self-awareness, and you, you become actually kind of at peace or centered, grounded, and like somewhat aligned internally, then the work is to make adjustments accordingly externally, right? Like, that's how we start to make more intentional choices for ourselves in terms of the work we do and the people we hang out with and the things we pursue. And maybe big picture, like we're talking the place you decide to live.

Right.

I mean, all of those things. And so that's, that's what I really feel like. And I'm, I'm excited because I think, um, when I say like, I don't belong in economic development, I think that the hard truth is, and this is hard sometimes for me because I still would really prefer everybody just really like me. I mean, if we're being honest, right?

Like, that's the dream.

Yeah, it's just everybody loves me. I think what you have to just genuinely understand is that that if you're living, if you're living your external world in a way that's really aligned with your internal one, you actually by the very, very by default will not be right for at least some people. But the ones that you are right for, it is like actual magic. Like you're one of those, you're one of those people for me, you know that I've I say that to you probably at least once a day in a message, like, hey, just in case I haven't said it today, right? That's, that's when you start to experience, like, life, truly life-changing connections, friendships, you know, even, even business, professional, like, professional network. Your network can grow like that too. And there's something that, that's— again, that's why all of this matters. If we can just help more people get a little more in tune with who they really are and start to actually make choices that support that. Oh my gosh, can you even imagine what the world would be like?

It's so, it's so inspiring to think about it because it really does. It just becomes a matter of alignment and aligning, aligning your, your world and your actions and your decisions with these deep foundational truths. And, you know, it's, and it's hard. It's hard, scary, confronting work. And it really is true whether you're doing it just solely in sort of the personal area of your life or professionally or in your business and your community, all of it. And it's, I think that both you and I just hold a lot of genuine admiration for people willing to do that and just, and honestly also a deep gratitude because it makes It makes the world better when we do, when we're willing to do that work. It really does.

It really does. And as hard as this part is, my therapist literally said to me the first time we met, she said, she asked me why I was doing something, or why it was actually why I wasn't doing something. And I listed a bunch of reasons. She looked at me and she said, not a single one of those has anything to do with you. Every single reason is about somebody else. And I was like, yep, check, check, check. That's like what I do.

Called out. Yes.

She said, so as your therapist, she said, psychologically, it is my— like, it is my job to help you realize that it is not psychologically healthy for you to continually not disappoint everybody else at the expense of yourself. And again, like, given culturally where I grew up, there's a lot of conditioning to tell us otherwise. And it, it touches on things like, well, am I, am I just a really selfish, shitty person then if I move through the world that way? And I thankfully have been surrounded by people like you. I've got a lot of people that I can turn to that when I'm questioning that, you can say, No, because we need you. We need—

we need you.

Rebecca Undum doing her thing. And that's what we need for everybody, from everybody.

And yes.

Yeah. So I just— it's, it's just, it's, it's a super exciting time.

It is. It is. And it's been, it's been so fun to be a part of it. And, and I think the heart of this work is also acknowledging that Uh, the stakes are higher in a lot of ways in small towns. And even, even in the, the process and the self-growth you're talking about, when you change or when you need different things or, um, you know, when you're dealing with, dealing with stuff or just sort of acknowledging complexities, um, you can't sort of like fade into the background or just go join a different group of people like you could in a big city. You're— it's all right there, and that's— you have to deal with it in a way that, um, that is honest and true. And the other thing I admire about the work of Growing Small Towns is I think you've also always acknowledged that small towns can be a laboratory for actually even deeper and more meaningful self-growth work and self-expression work, because we are— you, you're in it every day. Like, it's— you're living it and you can't really escape it. Like you can't avoid doing the work if you want to have a meaningful and honest life. And that's right.

Oh, I know. So 2025, baby, it's going to be a— it's going to be a great year. And it is. This was a good long episode. So for everybody still like hanging out with us, this, this medium of podcasting continues to be my favorite way to show up for our audience. And I think it's a really exciting way to continue to kind of, I think, reflect different ways of thinking, to challenge the status quo, to challenge those truths that we hold so dear and then go, well, are they really? And what if they weren't? And just spark possibility, because that's— that energy is needed. It's needed everywhere. It's really needed in small places. Um, yeah, because I do know that we're not going to save any small towns, but I really believe every single conversation we have here helps grow them.

Absolutely. Amen to that.

Thanks for joining me, Winona. I'm so thankful to have you in my corner.

Oh my gosh, likewise, Rebecca. It was so fun to— so fun to be here, and I'm excited for what's going to come next.

Me too, sis. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701- 203-3337. And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.org. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have right where you are. Your community needs you. Because we are We are growing small towns. We are growing small towns. We're right here living our best lives, as crazy as it sounds. But we are growing small towns. Growing small towns. We are growing small towns. We are growing small towns.