Behind the Scenes of a Bestselling Book

Hey there, Scoop! I'm Paula Rizzo. Have you ever read a book where you're like, I love so many things about this book? Maybe it's the characters, maybe it's where it's located, maybe it's, you know, what you learn. For me, Where the Crawdads Sing was one of those books. I loved it so, so much, and it's becoming a movie, which is happening more and more these days where some of your favorite books are going to the big screen. To the small screen, all of the above. And I was curious about the behind the scenes because as many of you know, I've spent my career as a television producer, which is, you know, running things behind the scenes. And so I know there's a whole team behind putting that broadcast together. Same thing for a book. And I was curious to see, hmm, how does this happen? How does a bestselling book become a bestselling book? So today I have an editor who I'm going to bring on in just a moment. She's not just any editor. She is the editor of Where the Crawdads Sing and many other bestselling books. And I will bring her on in just a minute. And speaking about books, as you may or may not know, I am the author of two books about productivity, Listful Thinking and Listful Living. And I actually am at work on a fiction book right now, which is totally different, which is really fun. And the journey for all authors is different. This I know. I work with a lot of authors to media train them and get them ready to get their books out into the world. But here's the thing I know for sure. Media and how you use media when it comes to your books makes a big difference. And so, so your book could be fantastic, it could be great, but if you are not the best seller of that book, if you're not out there talking about it and putting it in the best light, people might not find it. Uh, so you want to make sure that you are using media as best as you can. So I do have a free resource for you if you're thinking about, you know, putting your, your stuff out into the world. If you go to paularizzo.com/checklist, you'll get my checklist to become a go-to media expert. And media these days means much more than traditional media. We're talking about like this show I'm doing right now is considered media, uh, podcasts, anything like that, uh, videos that you produce. So if you go there, you can check that out and, uh, stay in touch. And, uh, I want to hear from you throughout the broadcast. So if you're watching on any of the platforms, uh, why don't you share it with whoever it is, uh, you know, on your timeline so that they know this is happening as well. And if you have any questions throughout this broadcast, or even if you're watching the replay, leave it in the chat boxes below. We will get to it for sure. We're going to hold some of those questions, uh, so that when we bring our guest on, which is right now, it's happening, uh, I want to bring on Tara Singh Carlson, who is an executive editor at, uh, GP Putnam's Sons. And I'm thrilled to have you here. Thank you for coming.

Hi, Paula, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Of course, of course. Okay, so you have worked obviously on Where the Crawdads Sing, and many other bestselling books. What are some of the other books you've worked on as well?

I worked on a book called The Light We Lost by Jill Santopolo, which was also a Reese Witherspoon Book Club pick. I worked on a book called The Family by Naomi Krupitzky, which this past November was a Read with Jenna pick. We Must Be Brave, and a number of other books over the course of my career.

So great. Well, so when we're talking about these books, which have done really, really well, what is it that you're doing as the editor So you're the one who's acquiring this book. You're the one who's saying, "Hey, I would like to work on this with this author and get it out into the world and publish it with our company." What do you see? What is that spark?

What is something that you see and you know and you're like, "This is it." I wish there was a formula that I could give people because I would be one of the richest people in publishing if I could. But I will say that my experience of reading a book that I fall in love with is almost always the same. If it is a book that keeps me up past my bedtime and I just have to finish it, um, I know that there is something really special there. And that has happened across a variety of genres, but it is always something about just caring about those characters enough that I need to see their story through to the end. Um, some other books that, uh, you know, have been successful, they haven't necessarily had that like immediate emotional response but the topic is so interesting, or I think that the, like, elevator pitch is just so good, the hook is so good, that I just really feel like I have a vision. I feel like you'll have a lot of your— you'll hear a lot of editors talk about their vision for how to bring that book to the market and how to find that book's audience. And so it's either like I need to completely fall in love, or I need to have that crystal clear vision. If I don't have either of those things, then it the book's, you know, gonna not gonna be with me. Go nowhere. Someone else might have that vision for that same book, uh, because it is so subjective.

But it's a lot of pressure for you, I would think. I mean, honestly, like, you are picking books that people will be reading and be, you know, I mean, like, this, this became a big deal. Everybody I know has read this book, you know.

It's—

and you read it, one of the first readers, really. I mean, I'm sure many other people read it before you to make sure it was good, and, you know, there's agents involved and all that. But yeah, I, I don't know, how do you feel about that?

I mean, the pressure is real. Yeah. I remember when I first even got into book publishing, I got to have an informational interview with someone and I said to them, I was like, how do you deal with the pressure of this? Because it's just gambling.

Yes. Yeah.

You have no idea if a book is ultimately going to be successful because you, as much as you love a book, there is just, there are no levers that you can pull and know that a book is going to become successful. All of the stars have to align.

So it helps that it's not my money that I'm using to write the book. Yeah, totally.

It is the company's money. But still, the company is trusting me with that. And anyone who gets into book publishing, it's because they love books and stories affected them in some way in their life. And I'm no different. And so the books that I put out into the world, I want them to be books that inspire people in some way. So in that way, yes, that is a lot of pressure to feel, wanting to make sure that your books are doing good things in the world.

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Right, exactly. No big deal. Just make sure it's changing everybody's lives and inspiring them beyond belief.

Or entertaining them. Thankfully, I am also like, I just want to be entertained sometimes. Everybody needs an escape.

That's true. That's true. And you mentioned loving books, and so we're getting a couple of comments in from LinkedIn. Adisha saying, love reading books. So we agree. We love reading books too. That is— yeah. So what specifically, though, about Crawdads did you— kept you up? I mean, I know what kept me up. But for you, who you're looking at it as a different thing, what was it?

Yeah. You know, it was sort of surprising to me when I started to hear that book reviewed as like a crime novel or a thriller. Because for me, what really drew me in was the love story between Kya and Tate. I always describe myself as a bit of a romantic. That doesn't just mean, like, romantic love. It's sort of about a way of viewing the world. But for me, it was that love story between Kya and Tate and then having— and where that went. So that's really what kept me reading. And also the natural scenes. I mean, the nature writing is just so beautiful.

For me, too. I think just having nature as a character, I thought was, like, So clever. Obviously, I mean, this is a nonfiction writer who had been writing about nature and, you know, animals and things for many, many years. So it was no surprise to me that she described this place I've never been to in such an interesting way that I felt like, hey, this is a part of the story as a character here. I'm excited to see the movie. I think it's going to be really fun to see what they did. I mean, for you as an editor, and I want to get more into, you know, the ins and outs of what your day-to-day is like working with people, but because so many books are now being acquired, and then turned into TV and movies. I mean, is that something that's in your mind at all while you're reading it?

Um, and not in the initial read because it's just so— I mean, as hard as it is to get a book published, it feels like it's 10,000 times harder to then have like a movie or a TV show actually made from that. Um, but that being said, it does feel like with the explosion of different streaming services. There are a lot more companies who need so much more content that we are hearing from, um, those companies a little bit more directly, whether through their scouts, um, just that they are looking for IP, they're looking for intellectual property and stories that they can bring to the screen. Um, but that can't be a part of the initial experience because the experience of reading a book is so different from watching something on the screen. So my focus is always going to be on what does this read like, who are the readers that are going to want to come to this book, um, because that's the industry we know. Of course there's overlap between readers and people who watch TV and movies, but I have to be thinking about the reading audience.

Yeah, for sure. And, um, you know, speaking of, of audiences, if anyone in our audience has questions, leave them for us in the chat boxes below and we will get to those, uh, in just a minute. But I want to dig a little bit more into the, the role of an editor. It It sounds like, oh, an editor, you're editing. That is what you do. But there's so much more to the job than that. So walk me through what your day-to-day is like. And then I want to talk a little bit about acquiring books and what that looks like too. Sure.

Yeah. I wish that editing is what happened in my day-to-day. That's more often what happens after hours and weekends.

Sure. Your day-to-day.

So as an editor, you're working on so many different projects that are in a different stage of publication. Because something else, just to touch on that previous question about can you be reading for TV when you're reading a book for potentially publishing it, part of what makes that also impossible is that the runway to publication is so long. 18 months is probably— is like average, but it wouldn't, you know, surprise me if it was longer from when I'm reading something to when it's actually going to be published. And the time the marketplace can change a lot within those 18 months. But so I'll acquire, for me personally, I acquire between 8 to 12 books a year, which means I'm, sorry, I'm publishing between 8 to 12 books a year. But those, you can't be working only on one book at a time. So in my day-to-day, it's a lot of email, like so much.

Yeah.

Office life in the year 2022. It's a lot of email. It's a lot of making sure that everybody knows what they need to know. About different projects in their various stages because, um, you know, I'll edit a book for several months, but then once I put it into what we, we say we put it into production, that means we send it over to managing the managing editorial team for it to be copy edited and then proofread and then hopefully turned into, you know, something we can put up on NetGalley, um, and then sent out for reviews. And, you know, marketing starts at it. You're talking with marketing, you're talking with publicity, you're launching it to sales, your, um, you know, agents are having questions. The literary agent for the project will be asking like, what's happening with this? What, you know, tell me about this. Um, so, you know, I'm following one book for 18 months, but that's happening, you know, I'm probably touching like 18 projects at a time.

Wow, so it is a lot. So if people think like, oh, my book is going to be the only thing on the person's plate, this is not the case, right? Yeah. There's a lot more going on.

There's a lot going on. Yeah, there's a lot going on.

8 to 10 books per year that you're, that you're publishing.

8 to 12.

Yeah, 8 to 12. Okay, so walk me through what the, the— so you mentioned NetGalley. So for those people who are not, uh, do not know NetGalley, this is where you would go to read, uh, the, the, um, advanced copy of the book. So this is where members of the media go, this is where bloggers go, this is where people who want to like get a feel for, hey, what's coming out in the next 6 months or whatever, so we can write a review about it or we can know if we want to interview that person in the media. That is kind of an industry insider thing. I love reading books on there. It's always fun to kind of get the first look. But let's talk about acquiring this. So for people who are not familiar with fiction and being able to get that out there, you do need to write the entire book as the author, have the whole book done, ready to go in its best outfit. And then acquire somebody, get somebody who can be on your team and help you on the agenting side. So you need an agent, and then that agent will then help you to shop the book around to different publishers. So that's where then Tara comes in, right? So someone, an agent comes to you and says, hey, we have this great project, we love this book, what do you think? Then what happens?

Um, so then first, based on the pitch, sometimes I'll recommend that they actually send it to a colleague, um, because not everyone, you know, knows exactly what you're looking for in that moment. And, um, but then if it's the right pitch for the kinds of books that I'm publishing, if it seems like the kind of story that I'm looking for and doing, um, I'll read the, the novel. Um, along with, you know, you're probably receiving, I don't know, at least 15 submissions a week, I would say. Um, but that, that number can vastly differ. There are some— publishing is cyclical. There are some times of year when you're going to be receiving a lot more projects. Those are sort of based around two big international book fairs that happen. So in April there's the London Book Fair, and then in October there's the Frankfurt Book Fair. And those, um, are where publishers will— publishers from all around the world will come and want to hear about the new books that are going to be coming down the pipeline that everybody is excited about. So there's a big flurry of submissions in advance of those two book fairs. But I read it, and if it's not for me, I will write, you know, an email explaining those thoughts to the agent. If it is for me, then I will share it with my publisher, sometimes also with my marketing director and my publicity director, and I will bring it up at our editorial meetings. So every imprint, I think, probably across the industry has a weekly editorial meeting at which all of the editors at that imprint will talk about the projects that they have been receiving. And you don't only bring up the projects that you're— well, the way that these work, it depends imprint by imprint, but typically you, you don't only bring up the project that you're interested in. You'll bring up projects that, you know, maybe it wasn't right for you, but you know the agent has interest, so it's definitely going to be placed somewhere, and you just want everybody to be aware of it. Yeah.

Hang on one sec. I just want to pop in on what you said there with the editorial meeting. So it's, you know, everybody across the whole imprint is there. So you're able to say, hey, this book is about XYZ thing. I really like it because of this. Hey, marketing and PR, what do you think? So that those people can weigh in. Does that help make your decision? Do you make different decisions based on what people in the room are saying about that type of book?

That can really depend. And so again, that depends a little bit. Imprint by imprint based on how, um, how publicity or marketing driven they are. Um, I think that at Putnam it can also depend on the project. Like, for nonfiction projects, you definitely need publicity and marketing to weigh in because so often that's like a platform-driven kind of book, and they will need to do a deep dive into what that person's audience and connections already are and what their exposure has already been. On the fiction side of things, 100%, it can— it would be amazing to be able to have publicity and marketing read and be on side from the get-go. But the thing that happens with fiction is, and as an editor, is that sometimes you're buying a project and you have a vision for how it's going to read when you're done with it, but it's not that project yet.

I see, I see.

And, and so the reading experience is not necessarily going to be what you know it will be or you can make it at the end. And so that can just be something that you have to sort of negotiate with people. And sometimes, you know, my publisher reads everything that I'm going to want to acquire, but it sort of depends on whether, you know, where the project is in terms of how good it's reading at the time.

I see, right. So it's like, hey, the future, the future iteration of this book will be like this. Yeah. And, you know, it's an important distinction between nonfiction and fiction, uh, you know, when, when you write nonfiction books, it's very much about, you know, who the author is, what their platform is. Uh, fiction, right, you need to make sure it's the best story ever, and it doesn't even matter if the person has ever written a book, the author has ever written anything ever before. So it is a little bit of a different animal there. Um, we're getting some questions about media, which I'll get to in, in just a minute. Um, but if anybody else has any questions, please, uh, leave those for us in the chat boxes below. But I just wanted to ask about, um, You know, we mentioned the agent. So the agent is the one who sort of then pitches you. Do you ever take pitches from authors directly or does it just have to go through an agent?

It has to go through an agent. The volume is already so high that to also consider receiving things directly from authors would make it almost impossible for me to actually consider anything.

Totally. And there's a level of this has been vetted already, you know, someone who is respected in the medium. Do you work with the same agent? Agents over and over again, or what, what is that relationship like?

Um, there are a couple of agents where we've had more than one book deal together, and I think that will continue to kind of, you know, grow as my career continues. Um, but I'm always open. I think you can discover something anywhere. It really is just about the read and the story. So, um, I think that, you know, it's sometimes surprising, or there are agents that I, um, you know, there are probably agents I've never done work with that I really should do work with. There are, there are just so many literary agents out there, honestly, and, um, we don't all know each other, which is why it is such a business of, um, of connection and needing to connect with people. Because, you know, this one agent might have a project that could be perfect for me, but if we've never emailed before or heard of one another before, we're just not gonna—

it's never gonna— yeah, it's never gonna pass. Yeah, yeah. The relationship, uh, of the author with you, with the editor, right? So now you have acquired the book. Actually, wait a minute, I'm not gonna ask that yet. I want to know about the vat of money that you have, but then you decide who's getting this money. How does that work? Like, do you get like a bunch of money in the beginning of the year that you're like, now I've got to spend this? Or how does that work?

No, I, I do not have any kind of budget, and I actually, I don't know if like Putnam as an imprint has an advance budget or if Penguin or Penguin Random House that has, like, an advanced budget. I don't know. Um, I just know that when a project comes in and I am like, this is, this is something I want to do, um, I go to my publisher and we talk about sort of where we think we might value it at. Um, and to do that, you'll look at— you do what's called comp research. So, um, we'll use BookScan, or if it's something that's been published by Penguin Random House, we'll use our internal systems to look up what the sales of that book have been, and we'll try to find books that are in a similar sort of category, published by, really just in a similar category. And, you know, do we think we could do similarly with this book? And that's what helps us a little bit to figure out what the level will be. But also, this is where that gambling comes in. Yeah. Because sometimes it's just whatever price the market will bear, and you will be super surprised by something going for so much more money than you, than you thought it would. Yeah. So we run, probably most people won't have heard of this, but we run what's called a P&L, which is a profit and loss statement. And we'll use all, using all of our comp research, we'll put in a number of sales that we think we might, a number of copies we might be able to sell for this book.

Right. So it's like how successful you think this will be.

Exactly.

Where you think this will land. Okay. So my ideas of you like Scrooge McDuck with your vat of money, not totally how it works.

Okay. Got it.

Well, thank you for clarifying. Um, but so, but there are some tricks that you have, right, as an editor, to be able to say like, hey, this is so good, I don't want any other publishing house to get this. Uh, and so there are some ways which you did use with Where the Crawdads Sing. Uh, this was— this book was a preempt. So could you explain what, what that means and when you pull out that card?

Yeah. Um, so that is the card that you pull when you stay up all night reading something because you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm in love with this book. And you think that there might be an advantage to not going to auction and letting other publishers, like, have a chance to even offer on it. So, um, the preempt— it's literally you are preempting an auction. So you are trying to make sure the auction doesn't happen, and you're going to make that offer to the agent, um, without, uh and you're trying to— usually you would only try that if you have read the submission very quickly after it has come in and you think you might have a head start, you know, before other people. And also, when you make a preempt, it needs to be, um, enough— like a strong enough offer that the agent would be willing to accept that rather than going to, um, to an auction.

So you make it a really sweet deal because you really want it. Got it. Got it. That's cool. So like, as an author, that's amazing. That's an amazing, amazing thing that you would definitely want to have happen to you. So let's talk a little bit about the agent, or I'm sorry, the— so many people, so many titles— the author working with you, right? With the editor. So how does that relationship work? You read the crawdads, you love it. You're like, hey, this works really well. What are the things maybe you think this didn't work really well? How do you go back and forth? How does that work?

Yeah, I mean, it's a real partnership and collaboration. You, um, so when, when I acquire a book, and I think this is how most editors operate, um, before I make any kind of offer, I always want to have a phone call or a video call now with the author to, um, make sure that we're on the same page, that we have the same vision for this book, because Even if I, you know, love a book, if, if the reasons that I love it are, or the vision that I have for what that book could become, are really different from what the author wants that book to be, that will not be a successful publication, or it will just be a very painful editorial process. Um, so, you know, first, we— I will always speak to somebody, um, before offering, because it, again, it's hopefully going to be a very long relationship that we have together. So we need to make sure we're on the same page and could work well together. Um, and and, you know, and during that call, I'll also preview some of the editorial work that I think might, you know, we might want to work on together. Um, and it ends up being really a collaboration. I always say in my editorial letter, you know, these are suggestions. This is ultimately your book. Um, you know, everything I am doing for the book, everything I have suggested, is because I love it and because I really want to help it reach its maximum potential. But ultimately it's the author's book. It's going to be the author's name on the COVID So they have to be really happy with it.

For sure. For sure. One of the things that— my camera has frozen, so I look like I'm praying. I apologize. You're very contemplative. Yes. I feel like this is— it's a very— it's a spiritual moment for me here with my frozen internet. I apologize. I'm going to try and work that out in one second. But I want to take a couple questions here from the audience because, you know, people are asking some, some really great questions that, you know, you and I have just touched on a little bit. But there's a question from Sally on LinkedIn who— it's a very long thing that she's writing here. But what, what I think she's asking here is you mentioned the editorial calendar, editorial meeting, right? And so in that editorial meeting, you may say, hey, I'm not going to take this book, I'm going to pass on this book. But do you talk through with the other editors in the room and say, hey, this is, this is something that is out there, this is what's, you know, available, I guess?

Uh, yeah, I will. Um, I mean, if often if something is not for me after I have read it, but I think it's good enough that someone else on my team might want to consider it, I will, um, say that to the agent when I, um, when I write them that email with my thoughts saying, explaining why it's not for me. I might say 'You might want to send it to this colleague of mine because I could see it potentially being for them.' So, um, and that way I never, I never want Putnam to miss out again because it is such a— it's so subjective.

Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Um, so what about— let's see, another, another one over here. Um, someone is asking, uh, let me see here. Oh, about media. Okay, let's talk about that real quick. So, um, you know, what sorts of challenges crop up for media when books build different relationships with their readers and give them those different experiences while reading. I'm not sure I completely understand, um, what this, what this is getting at. So if you're watching and you want to clarify for us, please do. Um, but, uh, you know what, let's talk about media in general. Like, how, how important is media, is doing media? Because not all authors want to do media, especially not fiction, right? They say, oh, you know, I will let the 'Let the book speak for itself.' And then that's where me, the media trainer, says, 'No, no, you need to speak for it.' So how important is doing media?

I mean, if you're good at it, it's really important. I think that sometimes the discomfort with media can show. I don't think— I mean, hopefully it would never harm the chances of the book reaching its audience. I think working on those skills can be really good, working on, on speaking skills and being able to connect with, um, with an audience over media. I mean, honestly, just securing media is really a challenge. So I don't want to talk about media as though it's a given that every single book and every single author is going to get like XYZ book events or appearances. Um, You know, I think, I think as a publisher and our publicity team certainly would love to get tons of media for every single book, but, um, that, that is a real challenge.

Yeah, for sure.

Just given the, the landscape for book coverage available, right?

Um, someone is asking also about, um Oh, about Crawdads, about editing Crawdads, uh, how different it was in the beginning and at the end of the book.

That book came in in really good shape. One of the things that we did work on was, um, the timeline and when the timeline of the past met up with the timeline of the, the present. Um, so I think it was like, you know, it starts in the '50s with Kya's childhood, and then you have the 1969 storyline. And so when those two met we moved much later so that less of the past— so that you experience the past in real time, which made it feel much more immediate rather than having it as a flashback. Um, so we worked on that, we worked on the love story, and we worked on making Chase— um, I hated Chase so much when I first read the book, but I was like, I don't even understand why Kya would be with him, I don't get it. So we really worked on trying to, um get across on the page what it is that Kya gets from that relationship, um, and why she might have, um, engaged with Jake.

I see, I see. Interesting. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with it, um, on the big screen. Yes. Will you be seeing the movie, you think?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, so fun. So, so great. Uh, I love it. Well, it's so, so much fun to chat with you. Uh, my camera is not working, so I'm staying behind the scenes. But this is a, you know, this is a show about being behind the scenes, so I'm staying behind the scenes and bringing forth those people who are, you know, the unsung heroes sometimes. You know, not everyone will know your name, it's not on the COVID of a book, but you are behind some of the, the biggest best-selling books out there today. And so, uh, I wanted to make sure that we, we knew a little bit more about who you are, what you do, and, um, you know, what are you working on now and how can people reach you if they, they want to? I mean, obviously through their agent, but you know, what sort of things do you look for? What are you working on now?

Sure. Um, so I'm— because we work far ahead in publishing, I'm working on my summer— the books that will be published in summer 2023 next year. Um, and there's a few books that I'm really excited about. Um, but I'll tell you about books that are going to be coming out, um, sooner than, than that. Um, actually, a book just came out that, uh, it's called Nora Goes Off Script by Annabel Monaghan, and I'm working on her next book, which will be published next summer. It's It's a perfect, perfect beach read. If you're a fan of Emily Henry, this is definitely the kind of book that you are looking for. But it has also sort of added layers because our heroine is a divorced mom of two kids and the love story totally delivers. But it's a perfect beach read, which I feel like now is a good time to talk about that.

Mm-hmm. For sure. And what sort of things are you looking for? If someone was watching this and they're like, hey, you know what? I'm writing something. I'm working on something. What are those things that are like, oh, that's a Tara book. Book?

Yeah, um, I look for, um, accessible but good writing. Um, and like I said earlier, I'm looking for books that are, um, when you finish them, you are reminded what is beautiful about the world and what people are capable of. Um, uh, that— and that doesn't mean that the book doesn't necessarily go to a dark place, but that in the end you end up in a place where you are sort of reminded of the, the power of people and how we can overcome. Um, or I just want to be completely entertained with like a great beach read.

Totally, right, exactly. You just want to— you want to go somewhere else right now.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, and I'm definitely an armchair traveler, so I love, um, books that are set— I, I probably don't do very many like New York, New York writerly kind of books. Um, I'm from the Midwest, my dad's from India, and I just I just, I like books that are set in other places, um, interesting family dynamics, um, but if there's a hook and a great elevator pitch, I'm there.

Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you for taking the time to chat with me, uh, and for those of you who are leaving questions, please continue to do that. We will check back on those and, uh, you know, of course see what else Tara has to offer. There's a lot of new books coming out there, so it'll be exciting to, to read those and follow your journey. Thank you for spending some time with us.

Thank you, Paula. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you everybody for the great questions.

And, uh, you know, I have a little freebie for everybody who's watching. It's my checklist to become a go-to media expert, which you can grab if you go to paularizzo.com/checklist. And I hope you keep in touch and, uh, have a, have a good one. We'll see you, see you soon.