GoalChatLive: Communication Keys

Welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Deborah Eckerling, creator of the DEV Method for goal setting simplified. I'm also the author of Your Goal Guide and 52 Secrets for Goal Setting and Goal Getting. And if you are watching this live, it is book launch eve. Very exciting. If you're watching this as Gold Chat, which is released on Thursday, it's 2 days after launch. It doesn't matter. We're very excited. And my panel today is one of— is a— unless it's on purpose, my people don't know each other, but I had the same wonderful panel talking about pitching last June, and now they are back, and they are also a part of the new book. So for 52 Secrets, I interviewed awesome peeps in entertainment, film, food, tech, etc., to get their best secret for setting goals and getting goals. And like I said, the, the people in this amazing panel are 3 of the wonderful people in the book. So I'm thrilled to have you all back and to have you in 52 Secrets. We have Dave Bricker, we've got Paula Rizzo, and Michael Roderick. And you were back in June talking about pitching. And of course, pitching and communication go hand in hand. Communication is like the essence of everything because when you can communicate, hello, you could do pretty much anything. So really excited to have you all here. And why don't you all introduce yourselves? Because all I said is you're awesome, and I feel like we owe people not much more, but a little more. So, Dave, welcome back to Goal Chat. Who are you?

Who am I? Well, how much time do you have? I'll try to sum that up.

An hour.

I am a business storytelling expert, and storytelling is business. Basically what to say, how to say it, and why they'll buy it. So if you want to say it, share it, or sell it, bring me your story, I'll help you tell it.

Have you been rhyming on purpose for like ever?

More or less, yes.

I guess that's another part of communication, you know, when you're able to articulate what you do, it is also super, super helpful. So Really glad to have you here in this conversation. Paula Rizzo, another one I only see when you're on my show. So great to see you.

I know. Good to see you too. We share a publisher, which is how we know each other, Mango Publishing. So I'm the author of two books about list-making, listful thinking, and listful living. I love lists, clearly. And I— my background is as a television producer. So through the years, I did all kinds of segments and all kinds of stuff. Now I'm a media trainer and coach, so I help authors to be able to tell the story of their book easier through video and through media. And I'm a guinea pig myself. I try and do a lot of this on my own and test things out and see, do these lists work? Does the soundbite work? All of that.

Yeah. And spoiler alert, Valhalla is in the productivity chapter, which surprises no one.

That's right. Yes. Very efficient.

Well, wonderful to have you here. And like I said, always great to see you. Mike.

Yeah. Welcome.

Thanks.

So yeah, so I'm Michael Roderick. I went from being a high school English teacher to becoming a Broadway producer in under 2 years, and a lot of people were very curious as to how. So I started to study referability. I started to look at why is it that people talk about ideas and concepts when you're not in the room. And most of the work I do these days, I like to think of it as pre-marketing. Before you get into the weeds of trying to figure out how you're going to market yourself. You need to think about your IP, your identity, and your positioning. And I help you think through that process and nail that down.

Awesome. And you, I believe, are in the networking chapter because that just makes sense, right?

Yes, it did.

Well, and the whole, the whole purpose of the new book is the secret to success is there is no one secret. So I gathered everybody's secret so people who are reading it can pick and choose what they need to enhance their life, to bring them to the next step of their career or thought leadership, or even like they want a better work-life balance. Balance. Yeah, balance. Because if you feel good, you're able to do all of the things. And as we stated before, I love repeating myself to myself. It's communication, really. It's the heart of everything. And the last time you guys were on was in June. And before the show, I was explaining you were on June 3rd. June 6th, I got the green light of the book, which comes out on January 28th. And that is really the essence of the book, communication networking, because I brought all these people, many of whom who've been on GoalTech to share what their tips are. But communication, it's so many things. I feel like we need to ask the question, what is it?

I bet you Dave has something. I feel like he does. This is the thing though about ready to go, right? Right. It's so good because you know he's got like a memorable little quip ready to go, which is amazing for him. And amazing for us because it's memorable. Dave?

Oh, well, I love this.

I'm just going to watch.

After that buildup, I don't know what to say. What is communication? I think we're all kind of alone in the world and we see the world through our own eyes. We perceive it through our own senses. And communication is that assurance that somebody else gets us. Somebody hears us. They see us, that they understand us. And as a result of that, we feel less alone in the world. Without communication, we're by ourselves. How was that?

That was beautiful.

Made me feel nice. I liked it.

Well, double value then.

So, Paula, you want to tackle this one, or should we go to Mike next?

I mean, maybe Mike next, but I just— something that Dave said, knowing that people get us. It's interesting, there was an interview that I had heard that Oprah gave, you know, I mean, she's interviewed a zillion people through the years, and she said the same thing, that people say the exact same thing after every show, after the taping is done, after they're done. They say, was that all right? Was I okay? You know, they just want to know, did that land with you? Was it okay? Was I all right? I just— I, I— and she's, you know, interviewed heads of state and, you know, huge celebrities. She's like, always the same question right after.

Interesting. Um, well, well, we do want to put our best foot forward and we want— you're right, we want to—

but they want to know, did it land? Like, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Well, I think Dave's definition definitely landed with all of us.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say that communication is the, is the very first thing we learn, but the one thing we never truly master. You know, we come out and we basically are like, "I need food," right? And it goes from there. But if you look at just all of the interactions that we have and the possibilities of miscommunication, the possibilities of somebody not necessarily understanding where we're coming from or what we're looking for or understanding what somebody else is looking for and needs, it's this thing that we are a constant student of. I feel, and, and I feel like it just constantly kind of evolves as we develop our own communication styles and ways of doing things, uh, and it just keeps going is, is the way that I like to think about it.

And, and Michael, I agree with you. I think that many of us are students of it, and too many of us sort of flounder around trying to figure it out because we have these amazing computers sitting on our necks And they don't come with a manual. They just come with this instinct, this deep desire to feel listened to and understood. And it starts when we're babies, as you mentioned, crying out for food, touch, attention. And we spend, many of us, our entire lives doing something not much more sophisticated than that, crying out for attention.

And there's so many different mediums now for it, right? Like, that's the other thing, you know, you mentioned miscommunication, right? So something that you would say to someone if you were to text it to them and they don't hear your voice or they don't see your facial expressions, it could be, you know, misconstrued 100 different ways depending on the tone. And so that, that has to be taken into account too.

Yeah, the all caps didn't mean I was angry, it meant I was excited.

Yeah, I, I just had this flashback, uh, to a very bad first date I had years ago. So we're talking like 10, 15 years. So and I was telling a friend about it. I'm like, he didn't want to pay the server. She kept going for the check, and I'm like, you know, it's so frustrating. Why won't he pay? And he's like, my friend said, if you were having a good time, it would have been, isn't that nice? She's not ready to pay. So we've got not only the intonation, But the context is another part of communication.

And the subtext.

Yeah. So, Paula, what would be your definition?

I mean, communication is back and forth. I think it's listening as much as it's hearing or talking. I think communication is really about the give and take of it all. And so often I think people get stuck in one or the other. They listen too much or they talk too much and they're not doing it equally. We talked about balance and, you know, work-life, but all of it, it's all a balance. It's all a little bit of a, you know, tightrope walk.

And you just— I'm sorry, go ahead.

Well, I think it's also just a sense that somebody is listening, and it's a very intuitive thing because people will meet me— this happens way too often, it's a blessing and a curse— but people will meet me and And the next thing, you know, I've never told anybody that before. I just met you. I don't know why I'm telling you. And I'm thinking, I don't know why you're telling me, but, but it happened to me last night at a concert sitting next to a complete stranger. And all of a sudden she's spilling her guts to me and I'm thinking, okay, well, I'd rather listen to James McMurtry, but I'm offering you some value. But there's a sense we feel that empathy.

I think it was just a premonition that she knew you were going to be on a live show the next day and wanted to give you a good story.

Yeah, there you go.

Maybe that was that different kind of empathy, right?

What is it?

Universal mind must have tapped into that. And Paula tripped over what was my next question, which is what makes a good communicator versus a bad one? So which should we tackle first?

Well, bad, of course.

I feel like you always kind of lean towards bad, right? Like, that's just kind of— that's what people pay attention to, right? If we think about it, when it comes— when it comes to that, um, I definitely have my, my list of bad communication, uh, you know, things, as I'm sure everybody else does as well.

OK, so I'm going to yes and the question, what makes a bad communicator? And I would love an example.

Sure.

Go ahead. You have one.

You definitely have one. Yeah. Yeah. So I've often referred to this as the, like, the steamroller conversation where the other person is basically like Bruce Willis-ing you in The Sixth Sense, like the whole time, right? Like they're literally just like they're going and going and going and you're like, I'm not even here. They're just like pitching or presenting sort of whatever it is. They're never asking you anything about, you know, yourself or anything else. And they're just kind of pushing things on you. And I think that that aspect of the steamrolling is probably one of the bigger turnoffs when it comes to communication. And I always just go back to, you can't underestimate the significance of making other people feel significant. And when somebody basically like steamrolls you and doesn't really listen to what you say and just kind of pushes or dominates, the other person doesn't feel as significant. They feel like they're sitting back. They feel like they just have to listen. And I think like that's an experience that you walk away from and say, I don't want that again.

It's the opposite of making someone feel seen. Yeah, it makes them feel pushed aside.

Exactly.

And have you been steamrolled lately? Do you have a good story? Because I don't see you as a steamroller type.

So yeah, it's been, it's been a while. I've gotten very good at the curating piece of like, I'm— most of the people that I get connected to are introduced through friends or sort of networks that I already have vetted and that I understand. I'm trying to think of the last time. I think there was definitely one where it was more of sort of like a tech, you know, you get these people who reach out to you on LinkedIn and are like, they've got a tech platform and they talk about collaborating. I just got one today. Yeah, and then you get on the phone, right? And it's like they open up the little doc and they spend the entire time talking you through it. And saying, "This is how much it is." They don't ask you any questions whatsoever unless like, you know, "Do you want to buy it?" So I think that that's what pops into my head probably the fastest when I think about that experience.

Yeah, it's like the one-track mind, right? Like they know this is the goal. I mean, good for them for the focus, right? Like they know what they want to get out of this, but it's a terrible experience for those of us who have to endure that conversation, which is why I'm like, "Eh, I don't know that I want to get on the phone with you and, you know, do any of that." Yeah, I had, and this gets me, so I'm going to yes and this before throwing it over to Paula Rizzo.

It's the people who don't do their— the steamrollers especially, who don't do their research before they reach out to you. I just got pitched again today, attend my goal setting workshop. It's like, have you met me?

Oh, man.

I mean, at this point, it's just kind of amusing. But still, it's like— and usually when it's a message rather than an invite, I will say, as a matter of fact, I speak on the subject. So you let me know when you want me to come talk to your audience. That would give me a little bit of satisfaction. But yes, the steamroller who didn't do their research is the only thing worse than the steamroller.

Love that.

And so, Valhalla, what is your biggest no-no?

Well, I, I think the person who's not actually listening, which could be a subdivision of the steamroller, you know, because it's sort of like you're having the conversation, you've mentioned something maybe that's— you think is interesting, and they just ask the next question that they had on, you know, on their list, or they just are like, okay, well, back to me, kind of thing. And, and it's like, well, that could have been like a— that's a missed opportunity right there, you know. I see it all the time, you know, with people who are interviewing other people right? They have their list of questions that they want to get through, they have a fixed amount of time, and they just like boom boom boom. But they don't wait and hear like, wait a minute, that thing you just said is going to take us all the way over here, and I'm ready to go. Like, I think people sometimes are a little too afraid to, to go off topic or, you know, veer from— look, I love a good list, but maybe they like, you know, they're upset to move from their, from their list or whatever it is. But it, it's a missed opportunity because it's like, that's a richness. Like Dave was saying, you know, people tell him things because you probably listen and you probably ask great questions that other people don't. And so it's like, okay, well, that opens up the conversation, that takes things in a whole different direction. And people don't always do that.

Yeah.

You do have a fan watching. Susan Montgomery is tuning in on YouTube. Basically says she loves learning more about communication.

From you.

She's a big fan. So thank you, Susan, for tuning in live. Um, Paula definitely knows her stuff. I— the, the other part is the script people. You know, we've all been on the phone with the telemarketer when you're asking them something and they don't know the answer. Oh yeah, it's not in the script, right? Talk about—

you've thrown them off.

Don't you just want to like call their supervisor and say, you need to train your people? Yeah, I'm, I'm guessing Paula feels that way all the time.

Oh, it's difficult. It's difficult to have most conversations with people, you know, because you, you're thinking like 10 steps ahead, like, oh well, that was interesting, maybe you could ask me this, or maybe this could happen in that. It's just the way, you know, your brain is trained from, from watching and working in television for so long. Like, you're thinking of the next, the next piece and the next thing and the next thing. And I get it, you know, people want to be prepared, they want to get through whatever they're doing, but And, you know, I can imagine too, like, if people are going on, on interviews for, for jobs or whatever, you know, the same thing. It's like there could be a missed opportunity of not getting something from somebody that you could possibly really use, or they could be a real asset to the, to the company or whatever it is, because you didn't have that part of the conversation.

And it goes back to there are two sides, the talking and the listening, and the best kind is when you go back and forth and then organic, authentic, whatever buzzword we want to use, fill in the blank way. Dave, what is your bad behave about bad communicators?

Well, I'll adapt a principle that I use a lot with speakers, which is lecturers deliver information and speakers deliver transformation. And so often somebody is just trying to give you the data. Without worrying about whether or not that is of value to you or something you can use. They're trying to meet their numbers or whatever it is. And I used to feel kind of railroaded by that. And I've just reached a point in my life where I'll be polite about it, at least to a point, but I don't know how much time I have left on this planet. I'm not going to waste it being carpet bombed by somebody who's just going to run their mouth. And I'll just, I'll just tell them. And there's another principle in there, which is that begging never helped any relationship. So if somebody's just going to ramble on and try to persuade me to buy something, especially if they haven't done their homework, I mean, if it's a telemarketer, I'll just hang up. That's part of their job is to get hung up on and find a sucker. Well, it's not me. Move on and find somebody else. If, if that's how you make your living, I'm sorry for you. If that's how you think sales sales works, I'm sorry for you, but I'm not here to educate you. I've got stuff to do for people who value it. But this—

and you just spoilered your tip in 52 Secrets, but you have to read the book to see which of those tips is the one he's talking about.

Well, I forgot what I wrote. It's been a while. But the other side of that Communication, I think, is successful relationships are built on boundaries. And when we meet people who are poor communicators, if we don't set those boundaries, we become complicit in their bad communication habits. If we can gently, at least at first, gently but diplomatically, say, nope, this is, this is going to be a different kind of exchange. And if they won't listen, then okay, right? You know, everything I haven't got is yours. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. But we have to take an active role in facilitating that communication partnership or it won't work. We just become victims of that assault.

I should not be surprised about the colorful wordage. But you mentioned the assault of words, and I just, you know, not salt and pepper. That's the other— food is the other show. But the visual of being assaulted by words really is very powerful in terms of communication. And I think setting boundaries is a great way to at least try to fend off the bad communicator. Bahala, Mike, what are your recommendations for dealing with, reeducating, uh, protecting yourself from a poor communicator?

Gosh, I mean, a lot of it I hope can be done before, like in, in the vetting of the— before we even get on the call. Like, even as I'm thinking of this, that person who reached out who wants me to look at their tech thing or whatever, I'm already like, okay, what 10 questions can I ask ahead of even getting on this call to see if this is worth worth the time, to be able to say, "Hey, here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I do." Or just to sort of— they may ignore that, but just to at least give myself that edge to be able to say, "Well, at least I tried to vet first if this was something that's worth having." Because a lot of times in the beginning too, let's say you're a new business owner, you want to have all the conversations. You're a new author, you want to talk to everybody about your book. Everybody's your audience. And then you start to say, "Okay, well actually, let's Let's just see who exactly, you know, is the best use of my time. And I think, you know, Mike, you sort of alluded to that before of saying, you know, you've curated your network so that people are— if someone's introducing you to somebody, you know, that's a quality person.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think it's a little bit of that. Like, there's some work that has to be done before you even get on that call or you get in that situation.

You bring up, if I can jump in, I think a really important point because there are so many people out there just— okay, it's the sawed-off shotgun emails to 10 million people. It's the— it's, it's that kind of thing. And 99% of the business I've ever gotten has come from introductions and referrals. It has not come from emails. It has not come from really anything else. And there are so many people And I think especially some of the younger people who are raised by cell phones who are out there going to— they're not going to the networking, they're not building connections. They're just spray and pray marketing and wondering why it doesn't work. And I think it's those personal connections where you do get to have that conversation with somebody that leads to, yes, this sounds good, let's have a larger conversation.

You just described the genesis of 52 Secrets because everybody who I interviewed in the book was someone I know or an introduction from one of these valuable friend people. And that, that's how we roll because you're— it's the, like, the best time saver, which I, I'm guessing Mike's gonna say in a second, is knowing the people that you reach out to knowing their value and knowing that the people who come from them have value. And the, the, the, well, first point to that, and then we're going to talk about spray and pray because I've got a pet peeve on that one big time this, this last month. So go. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think that the, the thing that I always come back to is that your life is always better if you curate. Right? Like, it's just, you will always make things better if you curate, if you make a decision about what you want and what you don't, and you— and then you are firm with those, you know, with those boundaries. And I think, you know, the, the thing that I'm reminded of, there's this children's book called If You Give a Mouse a Cookie. And basically the idea is that if you give the mouse a cookie, mouse is going to ask for some milk, then it's gonna— then it's gonna ask to sleep in your bed, and then it's gonna wake up and it's gonna want a cookie again, and it's just gonna keep kind of going.

Right?

And when somebody reaches out and says that they want to have a call, if you give that mouse a cookie, you are going to end up on that, you know, on that conversation. But if they reach out and say you have a call and then you ask them, what would you like this call to be about? Most of them ghost you.

Yeah.

Like most of them won't even, you know, respond. And if they do respond, a lot of the time they're just like, they're sending you their like massive, you know, massive pitch, which you can just ignore, right? Like, you know, kind of where it is. But every once in a while there's somebody where it's like they actually do want to talk to you about something specific and they've come back with, I was reading your thing, you know, I listened to this interview that you did, etc., and I was thinking about how we might be able to do something together, you know, those types of things. And again, I think the more questions you ask, the easier it is to figure out who the, you know, bad actors are and who the people are who are really trying to develop a relationship and get to know you.

I have a friend and people wanna talk to him all the time. He's a very successful copywriter. And when people call and they want that half hour or an hour, he says, okay, I need to get your billing in. Information. Well, what for? Well, the first call is $500, and of course then they split, right? But you think if they had something really valuable to sell him that he could use, the $500 would be nothing to invest in that transaction. He's wealthy, successful. You got something, some real value, you're gonna save me more than $500, and no problem. No, but nobody, nobody takes it. So you think it's an interesting form of paywall.

Yeah, I was gonna say it's a great boundary.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a coach once who, you know, people would say, oh, you know, oh, I just want to get on the— get on a call with you and pick your brain. And she would have said, oh, I already picked it for you. And then she would send like, you know, here's my blog post, here's my book, here's my whatever, here's my, you know, and all the, all the resources and all the things that she's already done, that it's like, you got any other questions, let me know, but basically everything I talk about is already out there and you can just read it or hire me one-on-one, you know. And it's like, it's so true. I mean, all of us are just, you know, we, we are producers of content and producers of what we know. Like, you know, it's not a secret of the things that we, that we think. You can find out at, you know, many places, many videos, many written, uh, you know, things. So it's just like, who, who is going to take the time to do that homework? Work. That's the difference. That's like, then that's more worthy of my time. Someone who's already listened to something or already has, you know, done a little bit of that homework. It's all about, you know, the audience, right? Like you were saying, Deb, before you get these, these emails or whatever saying, you know, about goals and things. I get emails all the time like, hey, would you love to be an author?

It's like, oh yeah, I get those too.

You know, have you ever thought about writing a book, right?

I know. Oh gosh, this is just too much.

Have you ever thought about a book tour?

Yeah, right.

It's definitely— there's a special place. I don't want to call it hell, but there's special places for people who don't unabashedly call it that. Well, okay, so I'm in LA and I am super judgy of everybody who sent an email in that second week when we were dealing with the wildfires. Or as I say, Santa is not the only one with a list, especially people— and some people out of town, you know, you could forgive the first day when they didn't before it made the national news, but especially people living in LA, the hitching people in LA, I just found it so baffling to be tone deaf. So that's my, my biggest pet peeve is not being self-aware or aware of what's going on in the world.

They wouldn't even think to look it up though. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're just like on autopilot, just send, send, send, send, send, try, you know, it's, it's all, you know, quantity over quality for sure.

And I think those people, if, if I got something that was— and I actually, somebody I reply asked me for something and I'm like, I live in LA, I don't think I'm gonna have to evacuate, but I'm a little busy. And I got up. I'm so sorry. I should have asked you how you were doing before I went. I mean, okay, she gets a pass. Yeah, but you need to— I think the self-awareness is— and we can talk now about what makes a good communicator. I think self-awareness is really at the top of the list, or awareness of the surroundings and the surroundings of the people that you're reaching out to.

Yeah.

So, so let's talk some good people. Dave, what makes a good communicator? What puts people on the nice list?

A good communicator is there to offer value. They understand that the transaction is a result of the sale. It's not part of the sale. And they open up with, what can I do for you? Are you dealing with this or that? 'Based on XYZ research, it looks like you might be. Is that you? Well then, it's not. Sorry to bother you.' That's all right too.

It's not like, 'Oh, I've got to close this sale whether this person is appropriate or not.' Value, while that leads to those good conversations that might result in something, or they could result in something like down the line. You just don't know.

Or, or a referral.

Mm-hmm.

In— there was— in 1995, back when people still thought internet was a hair product, I started a web design company. And I mean hand coding. Photoshop barely had layers. It was really primitive. And I started calling around town and there was a restaurant that I called very popular restaurant here in Miami. And they said, oh no, we have this agency already working on our website. I said, you're in good hands. I mean, people— I had to explain to people at the time what a website was. Nobody knew. I was very early in that game. Well, I got a call from that advertising agency, and he said, I spoke with the proprietor of the restaurant, the owner, and they told me you called. And told them they were in good hands. I just want to thank you. You could have tried to pitch our business or whatever. And I lost touch with that person and then got reintroduced to him, and for the past 10 years he's been one of my dearest friends.

Wow, I love that story. You can tell that one in the next book.

I do dabble in storytelling.

Very good. Meant to be.

That was meant to be, right?

I like that.

Because you never know when a relationship is going to become a business relationship. And sometimes, like you said, they make great referral partners. Not everybody is going to be your client. Most people aren't. But when you surround yourself with quality, which you can vet through people or just by opening your eyes and doing a little research on your end, it does make the time you spend together Or, I led, I led a networking exercise once and I called it Lead with a Need because in networking everybody comes to sell and nobody comes to buy.

It's a really artificial situation. I said, get in your group of 3 or 4 people and talk about something that you're bad at or something that you're looking for. And instead of trying to sell your services, see if somebody else in the group can either help you or connect you to somebody. I could not pry them away from that exercise. I was blowing my whistle and ringing my bell. They were just stuck in that. So yeah, it's not there. You're not there to talk about yourself. You're there to serve others. And when you give other people that chance to serve, when you lead with a need, so to speak, instead of a pitch, it's amazing the power. People love to be helpful.

It's true. I always say be of service, right? You know, how could you be of service? How can you serve the audience? What does the audience need? Not what do you need, right? As far as, you know, if you're going to be in the media and you're going to be interviewed, you know, so many people think, oh, it's about me and my book and I want you to buy it. And it's like, yeah, it's not about you, it's not about your book, it's about them and what they need. And let's just, you know, be of service. Um, but you know, I think another, another piece of the good communicator part, of course, listening, having someone who's a good listener, but someone who actually retains the information is really important too. Because to your point, some of these relationships, it's a slow burn. You know, you could know somebody for years before you do any business with them or they refer any business to you or whatever it is. But people who, who remember you for something, being memorable, and then they're able to retain that and say, you know what, when I know that I need somebody for this, you're my person. And having that, or, you know, I know this about you, or whatever it is. And, you know, that's happened to me. There speaking engagement that I got probably 5 years after I met the woman. And, and we had met at the Javits Center. It was Book Expo America when they used to do that in real life, you know, and it was great. And I met her and I pitched her and I was like, I could talk about this and I could talk about that. And she was like, yeah, okay, whatever. And I kept, you know, pitching her again on email and then didn't hear from her. And then like 5 years later, she reached out. She said, hey, do you still do that thing? Because we could really use it now. And I was like, yes, I still do that thing.

I can do it still.

And it's been like a great relationship, but it took all that time, you know.

Yeah. Some things are just a not yet.

Right.

And, you know, I help people with nonfiction books and nonfiction book proposals. And I shouldn't admit this, but, you know, sometimes it's 5 years.

Yeah.

I think once it was like 8. Deb, I'm finally ready. Let's work together.

Yeah.

Great. And just for those who just— I think it's always a gift when people come back to you because you are that memorable.

And Deborah, that honest. You absolutely should admit it because too many people in the— are— there's this hype in the publishing world that you're gonna write this, your book's going to be a bestseller because it's a good book, right? It's— and, and then you're gonna do this.

Are you telling me something?

No, I'm kidding. No, but there's so many charlatans out there, and I would rather tell especially a fiction author can come to me, I'll say, I will help you craft a really wonderful novel or a memoir. You're going to feel great about it, but you're very likely going to pay me more money than you're ever going to make off the book. Are you okay with that?

Right.

Some people are. They want to publish their book, but I would rather decline the project than have somebody feel like that they got ripped off.

Yes. And this is where I put the caveat. This book that I got the okay on in June that I turned in in August, that's out January 28th. That's not normal. Mango is really good at putting books together. And when I got the green light on the book, I said, when do you need it to be out in January? Because goal setting equals me. I mean, I talk about it year round, but to jump on the new year, new you, that is not normal. I know a woman whose book is coming out that she's been working on for as long as I've known her. I've known her like pre-pandemic, a couple of years. So, and her book's coming out after mine, but she's been working on this memoir. Beautiful writer. I will shout you out, Shannon Lüders-Manuel. I'm so excited and proud of you. I met her at a goal-setting workshop I led. It has to be 2016-ish because it was before I rebranded as Deb. She was new in LA and attending the event, and she had this great idea. And the fact— and I've had 2 books traditionally published since I met her. So that is not normal. And thank you for bringing that up, Dave, because it's the same thing with nonfiction people. I'm going to teach you how to write your book in a weekend. Why would you want to write your book in a weekend?

Enjoy it.

This is a labor of love. You want to put that time and attention into it if you can. I'm not going to stop you, but that should not be the impetus. And also, making a lot of money, also not the impetus for writing a book.

It all comes back to service, doesn't it? It comes back to offering value. And now it's even worse. Write your book with AI. 5 minutes. How much of that garbage is flooded?

Get me started. Yes.

And this is where I shout out and thank Paula, who introduced me to the good people at Writer's Digest, because I've got— I've wrote— I've been writing, um, articles on writing a book proposal because of what you said drives me nuts. You want to use AI as a tool to clean something up, to research, fine. Those are not your words, right? Right. Like anything, um, it's a tool. Use it, um, in a way that enhances what you do, not as a replacement.

I always think of it like a very eager intern. They really want to do a good job, really trying, but they're just not there yet, you know? You know you're gonna get something that's like kind of okay, but you're gonna have to fix it up and you're gonna have to give some more instructions and all that. So that's sort of the caveat I always have every time I'm trying to, you know, let's see what they come up with. It's like, I'm gonna have to double and triple check this just to be sure.

Yes. Anytime an email starts with, I hope this letter finds you well, I know it was written by ChatGPT.

Yeah. So Mike, what do you think makes a good communicator?

I mean, I always go back to this, this idea that people love to feel useful, they hate to feel used. And the more that you can create an environment in which you're just sort of sharing with people where the gaps are in what it is you're doing and let them share with you their creativity, their ideas as to how to help, you're always going to get much, much further. I've often thought about it in the sense that you limit the things you get in life when you limit other people's creativity. If I ask you for something directly, you're basically gonna, you know, either say yes or no. But if I say, here's this really interesting problem, do you have any ideas? Who knows what creative idea you're gonna come up with, what kind of intro you're going to create, like what's going to happen sort of within that. So I think it's that aspect of you really just live in this world where you don't ask people to do something for you. You ask them to be thought partners with you and you just get a lot more out of that.

Ooh, thought partnership. Like, like, for example, this conversation. It's all— every now and then I'll invite someone new to be in the show or people who are in the book. Are doing these panels with me, they're like, what should I prepare? I'm like, nothing. You're here because you've got a take on this topic. Go make some new friends. And with the whole of service idea in mind, I would love to know from each of you, what are you working on? What are you excited about? And what are ways in which people who are tuning in can support you? So, Mike, what are you working on and how can we contribute to making your life better?

Sure. I appreciate it. So I finally actually, like, made my website not a website that I'm embarrassed by, right? Like, we sort of have those moments, right, where we're like, oh, wait a second, you know? And now it really communicates the work that I do and there's a couple of, like, fun videos up there and, you know, and things like that. So having more folks come to the website would be awesome, you know, and just having more people kind of know about this kind of, you know, this kind of work, that would be fantastic. And I'd of course appreciate it.

Okay. And that is smallpahnenterprises.com?

That is correct. Yep.

Awesome. And of course it will be in the recap. Which you can find at thedevmethod.com/blog. And Dave, what are you working on that you're excited about? And how can those tuning in support your efforts?

Well, we were just talking a bit about AI, and I have really been fascinated by this nexus between AI and HI and human intelligence. And I've been developing a lot of AI-driven messaging tools and things like that. And recently created a new website. I've got Speakeypedia, which is full of the information, but for the consulting and training end of the business, I just created remarkable-stories.com. And it would have taken me, it would have, I would have needed a team of engineers to do that 2 months ago. And now I'm able to art direct the AI and push it along to get results I want. It's the first non-WordPress website I've created for years, and I'm just getting where I can begin to approach the things I used to do with Flash, where I could do everything but scratch and sniff. So I had a blast putting that website together, and it's a lot of fun, and Yeah, that's what I'm excited about right now.

So how can people help you? Just go check it out?

Go, go there and yeah, go check it out. And if it makes sense to have a conversation about your organization and how I can be of value, that's great. Otherwise, if it makes you smile, that makes me happy too. Love that.

Awesome. So it's putting more of what you love into the world, and when you can help people, great.

Well, not everybody's gonna be our client, right?

Well, exactly. But someone who's tuning in might know somebody who needs you. Yeah, you just never know.

Well, they might just go there and say, that's a lot of fun, that made me feel good tonight. That's good. Better than the standard brochureware that's out there. I'll take it.

Well, I frequently say, you know, the D in the DUB method is determine your mission, and your mission can be to entertain, it can be to inform, or it can be a product or service or makes things better for people, or, you know, one from each category. But as long as you love what you do and that's what you're putting out in the world. I feel like that's good. You're there to help others, and the right people will get, get there.

And education is 90% entertainment anyway.

It should be.

I was gonna say, doing it right, if they're not laughing, they're not learning.

So true.

And Bahala, what are you working on right now, and is there something we can support you on?

Well, I think we're all a work in progress, right? You see here, we've started, you start a website, you change it up, you rebrand yourself as this. We're all doing this, right? We always do. And I think people often see you further along in your journey and think, oh my gosh, how'd you get there? It's like, well, you didn't see my first website and you didn't see when I was teaching myself how to do these things, right? So much the same. I have a course called Media Ready Author that I launched 2 years ago, but just recently I re-recorded it. Recorded all the videos, and I'm very happy with every video because, you know, it's, it's, it's me now. It's like the iteration of, right? It's, it's more modern. It's exactly what I want it to be.

Um, 2.0.

That's right, exactly. You know, uh, and so I'm glad to have it out there. I'm really proud. Not that I wasn't proud of the first, you know, the first wave, but this is like I really took the best parts of the first one and just, you know, rearranged it and made it, made it really great. So it's all brand new videos um, mediareadyauthor.com. So if you're not an author, it's okay. You might know an author, you might have a friend or someone, you know, who you can help to support, um, to help them talk about their book, uh, and get out there to, you know, help people, be of service. And, um, I appreciate that you gave us the opportunity to, uh, to do these little plugs on our stuff. Thank you.

Well, I feel like I'm, I'm kind of— usually I ask this a little bit later, where can people find you? But I love I love that the answer to how can we help, um, is just come check me out and maybe I can help you. And maybe you just know somebody who I can help. Because the, the essence of— this is the ongoing thing— the essence of communication is service. It's like being in it. In the conversations, sharing what you have to offer and seeing what people need, offering help, and also uplifting and entertaining. Because you're absolutely right, it's much sort of like you can't like dance and frown at the same time. If you're entertaining— because I think years ago somebody challenged me. I was in a rare moment of crankiness. Someone said, Deb, go dance. And wouldn't you know, it was like magic. But the point being, the higher the vibration, the better the energy, the more that you're going to take in this information. So if there's— before we get into assigning goals or gifting goals, I would love from each of you, like, what is one thing people can do so independent of the goals. What is one thing people can do to get better at communicating? Listen.

That's it.

Okay.

If you're, if you're listening to this, everybody just laughed. But yes, listening is an important part of communicating.

Mike?

Yeah, I always go back to something that we did in education as a teacher, and that was the check for understanding. So basically, if this— if I was teaching something, I'd stop and I'd ask a student to tell me in their own words what I just said, so I could see whether or not they actually got it right and they sort of understood it. So I think that one of the things that we can do to help with our communication is to basically just say to people, here's what I think I'm saying here, here's what I think I'm communicating, here's what I think the value is, and But I actually, you know, may be missing something. So I'd be curious, do you think I'm missing something? Is there something I'm not addressing here or not thinking, you know, not thinking about? And I have just found so many times that gets such strong responses and you get a lot of really good information about how your communication is effective or ineffective.

Interactive. So it's an in-real-time how did I do survey.

Yep, ex— exactly, exactly. And it's very, it's very different because if you're doing a how did I do survey, right, or you're sending somebody a survey afterwards, they're not face to face with you. And because they're not face to face with you, in many cases they're going to have some sort of polished response that you don't see. But if you ask somebody about something, they usually can't hide on their face if something felt kind of off to them or didn't quite work. So that aspect, it like, that is gold to understand that, to be like, oh, okay, I just noticed this like look of confusion, so there's something there. Let's talk about that. Let's dig, you know, sort of deeper into that.

I love that. So you add that body language component to it. It's not just the feedback, it's the interpretation.

Exactly.

It's like if you're at a restaurant and you're looking at the menu and you ask a server, "Ah, how's this dish?" You need to look at them because they may say one thing, but if you look at their face, you can tell the grimace means Stay away.

Yeah, yeah, especially the specials, right?

Dave?

Well, certainly to recap what Paula said, it, it— for visual learners, the word silent has the same letters as the word listen. So put that in your head, put those together and, and do that little animation. Remember. And then the other thing Michael was talking about is kick, ask, ask questions. And part of that also is give people an out. Do you mind if I challenge what you just said? They might say, yes, okay, I'm done. But they rarely will. But I remember teaching and say student would do something and I knew the rest of the students made the same mistake. And I'd say, Betsy, do you mind if I use your project as an example and critique it in front of the class? Because I'm not calling you out because a whole lot of other people— no, Betsy always said, sure, go ahead. But asking people before you offer that input really opens the door to them receiving it.

Ooh, love that.

That's good.

Yeah.

And I think that's also important. It's, it's important for both parts of the conversation. I'm a firm believer that before you even ask for feedback on something, you need to know your stuff enough so you can be objective with the information. But asking permission for before offering, you're— it's relationship development. It's trust development. Right?

Look, if you don't want to hear what I have to say, that's fine. Go with God, but go. Someone else wants to hear it. I'm fine with it. I don't— my ego doesn't need to sit here and make sure you heard what I had to say. That's about me.

If any or all of you had an experience where you communicated something and you saw like the biggest light bulb on the planet go off over someone's head, I think that's our jobs.

Yeah.

I think it would be everyone. Yeah, that is the point of communication is looking for that light, the visual light bulb that you're going to see on someone's face that they got.

But we're all in the communications business. I think if we don't see that every time we engage with people. Now, there are people who are resistant to coaching and resistant to input. They're not ready. That's fine. But for giving a workshop or something like that, I expect— I mean, if nobody comes up and says, wow, you changed the way I speak or you changed the way I write, or I never thought of it that way.

Totally.

I got to go back and do some serious homework because I'm selling this product. It's got to be valuable to people. So yes, yes, yes.

That is the feedback I feel like I get the most. You step off the stage, you finish a thing. I never thought of it that way. I never thought of it like that. And so it's like that, I think, for people is just to change the perspective, the thought process. Right.

That's cost of entry. That's our job.

And what were you saying at the top? If they're not— God, you said something. I mean, you all said wonderful things, but there's something in particular. Oh, if it's delivering, you want to deliver transformation, not information.

Right.

And by delivering transformation, you get that. Thank you.

Yeah. Somebody, if somebody gets in a room, I think with any of us at the end of the speech, the workshop, whatever it is, the majority of the people, the people not looking at their phones and hopefully not many of those, are going to feel better, faster, stronger in some way. That's what they're paying us for, right? That's why speakers and workshop facilitators charge money. We're not there to make— I mean, yeah, we're there to make them feel good, but we have to produce business outcomes or we're out of business. As with any product, the value has to exceed the price.

I feel like people sometimes think that transformation is a luxury item, and I kind of feel like it's the opposite. You know, you— if you are, if you are tuning in, if you are buying one of our books, if you are attending one of our events, you're there for a reason. We were put in your path, so soak up as much as you can of the information and not be on your phone, be 100% there, that's when you're going to get the most value. And just so the audience knows, we get as much joy from it as you do.

Yeah, that stops happening. I'm going to go do something else.

Yeah, exactly.

So Howard Brown, Howard, who's been watching. Hi Howard, also in the book. Uh, learning how to intentionally and actively listen is such a skill that many people really need to learn, especially on digital and social platforms. So before we go into goals, I think you brought up a really good point. How can people be better communicators digitally?

Write and speak out loud. Like, when you're writing it, say it out loud. I mean, that's like my life as a television producer. All I did was write scripts for people to speak. And so I'd have to read it out loud like a crazy person at my desk all by myself, right? How does this sound out loud? If someone were to read this in their mind or out loud or whatever it is, how does it land? How does it sound? So I, I do that a lot, you know, where I'll write something out and then I'll read it, or I'll send it to myself. Like, you can send things in the future to yourself as an email. I will send it to myself, forget that I've sent it, and then see how does it land. Like, how did that approached me when I wasn't ready for it and I didn't realize, like, what is this now? What did I, you know, and then I kind of catch myself off guard.

I love that.

That's great. Yeah, I mean, I always go back to this aspect of if you're going to respond, like, you've got to read. And there's a big difference between sort of reading and not thinking and reading and really thinking about what you've you know, what you've read. And I think that if there's nothing that really stands out out of what you're reading, then you probably don't want to make that comment, like, because it's going to be pretty mediocre. But if there's something that it caused some insight or some new idea, or it sparked a question that's like useful, then you contribute to, you know, to that conversation. Because I think we get especially with AI, right? Like we get too many, you know, hey, thumbs up, that was great, you're cool, you know, kind of stuff.

Like, so you want to be adding value when you're responding. You just, you don't want to just be saying, yeah, that's really interesting, thank you for sharing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Okay, Dave, thought?

Well, I see too many things that are just too many messages that are so obviously scripted. And a friend of mine, uh, Dr. Margarita Guri, has a wonderful saying I wish I could claim credit for. She says, when all else fails, just pretend to be yourself and write, write a message that's from the heart that's meaningful instead of Hi, first name. I see you're doing remarkable work with company name. Would you like— I mean, yeah, or my favorite is, can I ask you a question? Well, you just did. That's all you get. This onslaught of insipid connection requests on LinkedIn, and I always click I don't know this person. Yeah, because they're polluting that space. But do something original, do something clever, offer some value instead of Hi, would you buy my crap? No, I don't know you. You didn't even bother to find out if I needed it. No, get out of my face.

My favorite are the pitches I get from people to my Write On Online website. So before Write On was a, well, Write On was a live group and then an online group. But before I moved everything to Dev Method, I had the Write On Online website. Those queries, I don't even bother because if they didn't notice that, yeah, updated since pre-pandemic. No, they're not even worth the 10 seconds it's going to be to read the pitch of something I don't need because they weren't paying attention. And I think the flip side is when people are paying attention, you know that they care, they're communicating, and it makes you want to communicate.

The worst ones these days, I call them the coach roaches because Apparently the hot new business is to coach coaches on how to coach coaches to coach coaches. And everybody's got these, you know, we'll get you 100 leads a week and we'll only charge you for— I mean, get out of my face. What are you going to write my copy for me?

No.

I mean, these poor people, maybe somebody sells them on the idea that they can make a living this way. I mean, come on, go open an eBay store and get out of my way.

I feel like you just sparked the next conversation we should all have, which is because people look at the word gahoj because it's so overused that the ones who are good get, get locked in. So I don't know the name of it, but I think our next conversation is going to be a how to take back, you know, what you do as you try as trans— as Transformers. No, that's a different topic. Um, I, I love this conversation. I'm so glad to get you all back together, but I would love for you all to gift a goal to the audience. So what is something that they can do today, tonight, like immediately to get back better at the whole communication thing, as it were? And we have crickets.

I'll go, you know, I'll go reach out to somebody that you admire and show that you've done your research. Like, like just write something to them. Say no need to respond. Like, like don't put any pressure on them, but just write to somebody you admire about the fact that you really enjoy their work, their ideas, and be really, really specific. Because I think that there are lots of people who get to these places and everybody sends them something generic. And if you're the person to send them something specific, even if they never respond to you, it's going to mean something to them because so few people ever do.

Oh, that's good.

I like that.

Day goal.

Think about what you do in terms of outcomes. How can you use your time, talent, education, experience, tools, toys, whatever it is, to produce an outcome in another person that would make you feel good? Don't even worry if you can— about whether you can make money doing that. That's a secondary question. Think about the outcomes you can produce that will make you and somebody else feel good. Reverse engineer your business and your purpose from that.

I love that. Okay, now, Paula, you have to outdo both of them.

I know. Here we go. Well, make a list, of course. Okay, but it's a to-become list. So as you're watching other speakers, other communicators, I want you Notice when someone does something very thoughtful, or they've listened, or they've asked a question that was really great, or whatever it is that you admired, that you yourself as a communicator would like to have, write it down, because that becomes a goal list, right? You have this list, this to-become list. I wish I did more like that. I was, you know, I noticed that, but it forces you to really notice.

Ooh, we've got research. We've got Research, homework, and joy. I mean, but isn't that what communication is all about? Research, homework, and joy.

Yes, it's true.

We were putting a nice little bow on it. Well, I asked you before, I'll ask you again directly. Where's the best way for people to get a hold of you?

Bahala. You can go to paularizzo.com/list. My list-making starter kit is there. If you're interested in media and things like that, paularizzo.com/10Q. And I'm, you know, everywhere on social media, LinkedIn, all of the above.

Awesome. Dave, where can people learn more about you?

Two places: remarkable-stories.com and speakypedia.com would be the two places. And of course, I'm in LinkedIn and wherever quality goods are sold.

Excellent.

And Mike?

Uh, yeah, so, uh, smallpondenterprises.com, and I write a, I write a daily email riffing on all of these different types of ideas, so feel free to sign up on there. And then, uh, I'm all over LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time on there just connecting with people, getting to know people, sharing stuff, uh, so feel free to say hello and I will say hello back.

Awesome.

And I am @thedebmethod everywhere, and you can go to thedebmethod.com blog to read the recap, get everybody's links and their LinkedIn, because we all pretty much live there at least half the time, because that is really the best way to start conversations. Or as I like to call it, the Rolodex. If you do not know what a Rolodex is, Google it and make me feel a little bit more old. But really, when you meet people, you can't reach your goals on your own. You need your people. It's a great way to keep— to get and stay in touch with your people. Thank you all so much for joining me for Book Launch Eve. Dave Bricker, Paula Rizzo, and Michael Roderick, thank you for tuning in. I am live every Monday at 4 PM Pacific on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. And you can learn more about me, as I said, at thedevmethod.com. Grab your copy of 52 Secrets for Goal Setting and Goal Getting. You can learn from more from Paula and Dave and Mike and 57 other people plus me who shared their secrets. And whatever you're doing, whether— whatever your goals, communication is going to be a huge factor in it. So being able to articulate Who you are, what you love, what gets you excited, what you do is really the first step in sharing how you help in helping people make their lives better. So thank you all. Set some communication goals.

Thank you, Deborah. Great to reconnect with everybody.

Yes. And congrats on the book. Can't wait to see it.

Thank you.

Very exciting.