How to Clear Clutter Forever with Paula Rizzo and Tracy McCubbin

Hey there, Paula Rizzo here from listproducer.com, and I am joined by my friend Tracy McCubbin, who has this amazing new book coming out. Congratulations. It's called Making Space Clutter Free, the last book on decluttering you will ever need. Very definitive. I love it. That is it.

Yep. This is it. This is the one. This is the one.

Gosh, I love it. So you and I have known each other for years and years and years. If I don't know if people have read my book, Listful Thinking. You will see Tracy in the pages of Listful Thinking, talking all about list-making and the best way to do it. And so I'm glad that we were able to stay in touch and now talk about your baby coming out.

It's so exciting, yes. I mean, you know, I am a huge fan of what you do and lists come up so much with my clients. There's so many of them that it's like, there'll be stacks of note pages and things. And I'm like, what's this? And they're like, those are my to-do lists. And I'm like, okay, like lists are so valuable. If you use them in the way that works for you. So the conversation of lists is a big topic. So I love the synergy of what we're talking about here.

Yes. And you're in the trenches. You're working with people to help them clear their space. And actually, you know, you're a professional organizer, so you're in there. It's not— I don't do that. I don't go in people's homes. I just tell people, "Oh, you should do that. That'd be good." You know, but you're actually in there with them doing it. So what was the thing, I mean, the theme of the book really is a lot of emotion is connected to the things that we have, right? You keep it 'cause you're like, oh, I might want it, but I'm connected to it somehow. So this is a theme that was ongoing with your clients. So tell me about how that inspired the book.

I saw people getting stuck in the same way. I saw them reaching out to me and wanting help and realizing that their home wasn't working for them in the way that was making their life successful. They weren't getting dressed in the morning, they weren't getting out the door, they were coming home to piles of clutter and they were feeling so much stress. And it was like, okay, they know they want to fix it. They know they want to change it. And they call me to help them, but they can't. So there's a block there. There's something blocked. And as I started to observe more and more, I realized that these blocks are emotional. That, that, that's the thing, that it's sentimentality or frugality or self-worth or these 7 emotional blocks to letting go of their stuff. And it really, they just started to come up over and over again. I was like, people need to see this. People need to realize that it's not just them, right? It's not just—

That's the interesting part. You feel like, oh, that's just my quirk. You know what I mean? Oh no, I just really like those, you know, I don't know, baubles or whatever you have, right? And it's like, no, this happens to a lot of people. You're not on your own, you know?

Exactly. And you know, the other thing that, people, look, there are forces working against us. I mean, it's never been easier to shop. Stuff has never been cheaper. Oh yeah.

Shows up in an hour.

In an hour. And so if you have a propensity for too much stuff, you're being bombarded with this message. So it's understanding why you can't let go. And then also looking at why are you bringing more in? Like how much do you really need to make your life successful and happy?

Yes. And that's, you know, one of the things too that I've sort of stopped myself because it is so easy to buy things like the drop of a hat, right? Is to pause and really stop myself and say, do I need that? Do I love it that much? Am I going to get that much use out of it? Is it really worth the space it's going to take up? You know, I live in New York City, I'm in a small space, you know, and so everything has to really be worth it to find a space. Spot in this apartment.

Exactly. And so that's one of the great things about the book that I'm super excited about is not only do I talk about the blocks, the 7 emotional blocks, but I also talk about moving forward.

You know, I remember speaking to Julie Morgenstern, who's also a bestseller.

Aha, best, yes.

Who I've known for years. She wrote the foreword to my book, wonderful, wonderful woman. And she had told me once that she kept a lot of cookbooks. And she didn't cook and she wasn't good at it. And the reason she kept it was because that was the kind of mother she wanted to be. Wanted to be the mom who went to the cookbooks and cooked things for her kids. So she kept them. And then finally she's like, I'm not doing this. I'm getting rid of these, you know? But it made my heart hurt. Cause I said, I get it, you know?

Right. And so that's clutter block number 4, my fantasy stuff for my fantasy life, right? I want to be this, so I'm going to buy all this stuff for it to, and then think that I'm going to do it. You know, the simplest of that is exercise equipment. Like people are like, I'm going to become a runner and I'm going to buy the most expensive shoes before they've even run around the block. And then when they do it, they hate it, but they keep it all because they're like, someday I would, I think I'm going to be this. And what I'm saying is be, your life is here and now. So your stuff should represent what you're doing now and what you want to do. And guess what? If you don't want to cook, if you don't want to be a cook, That's great. Carrie Bradshaw kept sweaters in her oven. It's okay.

Right?

Like, I don't want people to feel bad about what they're not. I want them to be realistic.

Ah, yes. Okay. So what about the idea of stopping yourself from things that do not— let's talk about Marie Kondo for a second, right? Her concept of what brings joy, what does not bring joy. It resonates with a lot of people. I find that I've used that for a lot of things in my life to be able to say, You know, does that speaking engagement spark joy? Yes or no? Am I going to do this? Am I going to do that? So it is a good way to filter. It's a quick, easy way, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Exactly. Look, I think she started a fantastic conversation. And I think that she's getting this country to look really honestly at the amount of stuff that they have. I am, I can't, you know, P.S., my business has never been busier because people are like, sure. But for a lot of people, like a huge percentage, it's an oversimplified question. You know, as a client said to me, "Is guilt-tinged sentimentality the same thing as joy?" You know, that there are deeper, more complex things. And you know, for instance, like inherited things, right? It's like, well, does it spark joy? No, but I feel guilty. You know, I think that she doesn't— Yeah, I think that sometimes for people who have a more complicated relationship with stuff, she doesn't address the other deeper feelings. Right, it doesn't, like, well, if it's not, you know, what if it's guilt? What if it's—

It's complicated.

It's complicated, it's really complicated. So my book really steps in for the people that her method didn't work for, who wanna get to the next level, and they're like, I feel bad, this should work. And it's like, it's not for everybody. You know, it's just not. And I think that the conversation is fantastic, but there is, you know, it's really complicated, our relationship.

There is another way.

There is another way. And you know, sometimes in this other sense, it's like some things you're like, you know, a hammer, I need it, I use it. Does it spark joy?

I don't know. You're right, exactly right. So you can't always like apply it to every single thing. You know, I like to be able to take what I like from different, different methods.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

What works for you, right? Absolutely. The idea of overwhelm, because this is what I find a lot of people, you know, when they're trying to get productive, they're trying to make lists, they're overwhelmed by the possibility, and then they do nothing. Yes. So if you were to say to somebody, you know, here's the one thing you need to start with when you're going to, you know, think about getting rid of your clutter or assess the clutter or whatever it is, what should they be doing?

I think the First, what I always like to tell people is sort of do a walk around your house and figure out the spaces in your house that are tripping you up the most. So like, don't start with, you know, a closet full of old photos that you never look at, but are, you know, way in the back of your head. I'm saying like, if your kitchen is cluttered to the point that you can't cook a healthy meal, maybe that's it. Or if your closet is such a mess that you can't get dressed and out the door in a reasonable amount of time, maybe it's there. Find one area and how it's tripping up your life, stopping you, and start there. You know, really kind of, yeah, really, you know, drill down. And look, I always say Rome wasn't cluttered in a day. You know, you're not going to do this overnight. So let's find the places that we can make you successful. And then you can, you know, go backwards and tackle the whole house. Oh, I love it.

I love it. I love it. So it's really like, go through your day and see where you're getting tripped up and why. Oh, it's because there's 1,000 spatulas that I'm never using that are in the way of the one thing I need to use, right? And so that's where you start. That changes the game. Well, Tracy, thank you so much for chatting with me, and everyone should go check out the book.

It's awesome. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to talk to your people, and I was just making my list this morning.

Oh, very good.

I know, and I actually wanted to ask you, do you personally, do you make your list at night, at the end of a day, or first thing in the morning?

At night. I do it the night before so that when I come in, then I'm like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah. Because then I find if I do it in the morning, I get derailed already.

Yeah, I'm an end of the— Yeah, that's, it's interesting. Clients ask me this all the time. I'm an end of the business day list maker. I can kind of like check it off my list, sort of shut down for the day, and then I know it informs my morning. But it's interesting, clients ask me that.

That's what works for us. Exactly. You got to find what works for you. But that's— we're twins in the listening. Excellent.

Thank you.

And I want you to go to listproducer.com to check out your free list-making starter kit.