Literary agent Lucinda Halpern explains what agents want from nonfiction writers (a proposal) versus fiction writers (a finished manuscript), and why platform matters less than actual engagement. Most books sell under 5,000 copies, but they can open doors to speaking gigs and courses.
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Hey there, welcome to Inside Scoop. I'm Paula Rizzo. What does every author want? They want to be published. I know this myself as an author of two books about productivity, Listful Thinking and Listful Living. You know, it's a bit of a mystery though if you don't know publishing, which I did not know. You know, I come from television news, so I did not know the publishing world. I had to learn quite a lot about it, uh, and so I wanted to know, how do you published when, when you're, you're looking to do this. This is a bucket list item for many, many people, so we're going to talk about it. We're going to dive in, um, because it's a little different for everybody depending on if you're going to traditionally publish or self-publish, if you're doing fiction, non-fiction, uh, and every book is brought into the world in a different way. You know, my story is different than another author's story. So today we're going to share the keys to getting published. We're going to talk to a top literary agent in just a moment, but First, I have a free resource for you that I would love to share. It's my freebie for authors. As a media trainer and coach, I work with lots and lots of authors, and I have a freebie at paularizzo.com/10Q. That is the number 10 and then the letter Q. This episode is brought to you by the number 10 and the letter Q. That's for the Sesame Street fans out there. And what you'll find there is the 10 questions that every author needs to be able to answer about their book. It sounds simple, but believe me, this is some of the deep work that I do with authors. So you can get that freebie right there. I'm also a LinkedIn Learning instructor and I have a lot of resources for all areas of your life. But as far as presence go, I do have a course all about media training and it is called the, uh, External Communication Skills for Leaders. There are also other courses there as well that you can, that that you can grab, like Boundaries. This is a course that I have on how to set boundaries and protect your time, because if you're going to be an author, you need to protect your time and you need to be able to, to do that really, really well, because otherwise you really will not be able to get the book done, which is step number one. I would love to hear from you throughout this broadcast if you're watching the replay, so please leave your questions below because we want to make sure that you get them answered. And if you have a friend out there who's thinking about writing a book, tag them below so we can give them information as well. And without further ado, I would love to bring on my friend Lucinda Halpern, who is the president and founder of Lucinda Literary. She represents authors writing in all areas— health, business, lifestyle, narrative fiction, memoir, etc., etc. Welcome!
Thank you, Paula Rizzo. Hi! Hi!
I'm excited to talk books because, you know, I feel like it's a mystery for a lot of people, uh, if you're on the outside looking in. So what do people need to know about literary agents, specifically and what they do and how they can help to bring the book into the world?
Okay, great question. So people need to know that there is no traditionally published book without a literary agent. There are exceptions to that rule, but by and large, if you want to get a book deal and you want to get your book in the hands of lots of readers and in bookstores, you're going to need a literary agent. Historically, they've been pretty hard to reach, right? We've been based largely in New York, which is where publishing is centered. And you send out lots of queries and you hope that someone responds. If you're a new writer without any connections into that industry, that can be incredibly difficult. You know, hopefully that's changing. Now with the pandemic, it's a virtual environment. Paula Rizzo, as you know, I offer courses and coaching to get writers to understand this very sort of wacky and esoteric world of publishing and how to get an agent specifically. But in terms of what they do, you know, it's really your shepherd, it's your doula, it's your long-term partner, not unlike a marriage. It's someone who you trust to be your dealmaker. Fundamentally, agents are dealmakers, but we're more than that. We're more than brokers, right? We're also your advocates throughout the process, which means that at the time we sell your book, now someone needs to explain everything that's going to happen. They need to advocate for your interest to the publisher. They need to stay true to your vision. They need to protect all of your creative rights and your IP. So there's a lot we do after that deal, and there's a lot we do before the deal. So you might submit a manuscript that you think is completely done. You've spent years writing it. We will probably tell you this needs some editing. You know, we need to change some of these characters. We need to make the, um, promise to the reader more clear if you're writing a self-help book. So there's a on the editorial side that agents help with and where you're—
and I want to talk about that specifically in a minute because I want to dive into the when do— when is this ready kind of thing. So yeah, just a minute. Sure. The other question I have for you too is, you know, the process, right? So, um, this is something that I think a lot of people don't, don't realize or don't know. There is a long process, you know. Coming from TV news, things happen right away. Publishing, not so much. Kind of takes a long time. Um, but so if you're writing, let's say, nonfiction The game is that you write a, you know, a book proposal, right? You write a book proposal. I did this for my books. You write the book proposal and then you get the agent to say, yes, I love this. Then the agent takes it and puts it out to all the publishers to try and get an editor to buy it, right? Um, with, with fiction, it's a little different. What is the process with fiction? How is that different?
Sure. I mean, the basic difference is that you have to supply a completely written manuscript. To agents. So, you know, what's nice about the book proposal for nonfiction authors is you're supplying the vision, you're supplying the roadmap. It's more like a marketing document with some content attached. So if you're a business person, entrepreneur, thought leader, this will come pretty naturally to you. It's your bio, it's your marketing plan, it's the outline for your book, and it's some sample of your writing. But for fiction, all of your writing's out there. Yes, editors are going to fall in love with what they see on the page, or they won't. So, um, you know, this may be a bit of an shoot, but what makes fiction picked up by an agent is something that seems sort of what we call popular and new. So something that has been proven to be popular by other bestselling books for that genre, but also lends something new. That's a new contribution in some way, maybe a new twist or, you know, just pages that keep us reading. So everything's got to be there and ideally even professionally edited before you're sending your manuscript to agents.
Ah, okay. So that was my next question because, you know, a lot of writers join writing groups and these are, you know, amateur writers who are all looking to get, you know, to get their books published. And so people will give feedback or they'll say, oh, I love this character or whatever. Um, that can be good and dangerous because these are not published people. So how important is it to get some help from professionals, like professional editors, before you submit? Because, you know, you don't want to get rejected. You want, you want to give it its best shot.
Yes, absolutely. So I find it incredibly important for fiction and nonfiction authors. You want to get that expert trained perspective. You want that person to be your most skeptical best friend. Here's what didn't work for me. Here's why it didn't follow linearly. Here's where I could afford to be organized. And ghostwriters likewise for nonfiction. People say, I'm writing a memoir. Why would I have another writer do it? Well, maybe that person has some distance and objectivity from a very painful story for you, um, can make it really come alive on the page. You know, there's no stigma around getting help. Yeah, help— asking for help is not a weakness, it's a strength, as one of my authors says. And I think that's more true than ever before in the book publishing industry, where so many books are already on shelves. It's very crowded.
Yes, it's very, very true. I mean, you know, especially for non-fiction, I would say people think I mean, maybe they don't think this anymore, but I feel like they, for a long time, even when my book came, my first book Listful Thinking came out 8 years ago now, people were saying, "Oh, write books because they're glorified business cards. This will get you speaking gigs. This will get you..." What can a book do for business or do for a person who's looking to build a brand?
I love this question. I mean, I spoke with one of my authors who has a book out today and I'll just give him a little tout. His book is called Buy Back Your Time. It was originally called The Buyback Project. Principal. I love it. I have it over there on my desk, but it's a little hidden. He is a SaaS CEO and entrepreneur, has successfully built and exited many companies, and he helps founders to really understand their deepest pain point, which is they don't have enough time and they can't clone themselves. This is a lot what you do.
I love it. I was like, maybe I need to have him as a guest on the show.
Oh, you absolutely should. But he said to me today, he said, I had no idea that the power of a book would 10x my business, that I was really missing the chance until now to meet my goals and make an impact and be of service, which is such an interesting thing for someone who is already so successful, already touches the lives of so many founders, has now been able to scale this important, valuable message to thousands of people that he didn't reach within his existing audience. So that's the most, you know, that is the most powerful thing you can do, whether you're looking to gain new customers, whether you are looking to increase a mission. We have another author who talks about women taking unconventional paths after the Great Resignation. Her goal is not to make a lot of money. Her goal is to provide women with a touchstone and a guidebook for how to do this. So it's advancing a mission, advancing your business. The most obvious is speaking that comes from it for business authors, for entrepreneur authors, even for memoirists and narrative nonfiction authors. Now you have an opportunity to monetize again and again and again. What's in your book. And guess what? Your publisher doesn't own that. Your agent doesn't own equity in that. That is all you. Uh, courses can come out of it. I think it's a book is fundamentally the most crystallizing brand exercise you can do to really understand what's clear about your message or, or clarify and focus it further and who really needs it. You know, a lot of really successful business people have not actually done that work to the point that you thought they might have. And a book proposal at a book itself. Does that work for you?
Yeah, it really makes you go through it. It makes you, you know, figure it all out and all that. And, you know, we're going to talk about errors, uh, mistakes that first-time authors make in a second. But, you know, for me, one of the things working with so many authors as a media trainer and coach, uh, that I find is that people don't want to talk, don't want to give away too much about the book. They try to keep it, and they say like, oh, Noel, it's in chapter 4. And I'm like, that's the worst answer you could ever give. I mean, you want to say that things are in the book, but you need give it away. You know, you're talking about this client of yours who, you know, is, is seeing this as a public service. That's how I look at media. Media is a public service. It's a way to get information out there, and you should give, give, give whether or not anyone ever buys the book. And look, we want them to buy the book, of course, but you want them to feel like, hey, I really learned something. If that's what she's giving away for free, let me read the whole book. Let me see what else is in there. So it's, for me, it's like a little bit of a mindset switch as far as promoting the book, putting it out there. What are some of the issues that you see with first-time authors?
I love that learning. It's one that we really preach a lot in the publishing world because there has to be so much free content and so much value that authors deliver before someone is even compelled to trust them enough or pay that $26 to $28 purchase price to buy a book, right? Like, you need to have either a deep fascination in the area or a very deep painful problem to solve in order to press buy. So I think that value you're talking about in giving free content has never more been true. And what we've also found is some of the most successful authors have given lots of pieces away. You think of Mark Manson, you think of James Clear, you think of Gretchen Rubin, people who have long built communities giving out content that they've now repackaged in their book. And guess what? Their fans don't care. Their fans come very hungrily for that content because it's been rendered in a different way, maybe with their personal story, maybe packaged a bit differently. They're probably buying the book in hardcover and they're listening to the audio on the subway, and they're also reading the ebook when they travel. So there's a lot of ways in which that free content can, uh, can travel. I guess you would ask the question about mistakes, uh, challenges that first-time authors have. There are so many. Um, you know, it's a really interesting topic, and, and we, you know, all of our events are, are sort of centered around this because the The revelations to authors are kind of immense. So, um, one would be that you need a huge social media following to get a book deal.
Hmm.
Um, not true. It's certainly not true of novelists and it's not true of memoirists even. Uh, you know, it's, it's really in those categories about what's on the page and how well you write and is the idea fresh. Um, and that fresh idea is going to be, uh, also true for nonfiction, but it's more about engagement, less about the, the numbers and the, just the visibility you have on Instagram or TikTok, and much more about how are people engaging with your idea set, what's resonating with them, how are they commenting and really need more of, of what you have to offer. So engagement, engagement, engagement is the order of the day over numbers.
So platforms— and when we hear platform, because that's the thing, right? A lot of authors are like, oh, platform, platform, I don't have a big enough platform, I need a bigger platform, what is the number I need to have, what's my email list need to be? And it really drives people insane. But you're saying. I mean, and I know that to be true too. I mean, again, when I published my book, it was— well, how long does a book take to come out? 2 years or something. So we're talking about 10 years ago, you know. I had a following, but I didn't have a huge following. Sure. You know, I also, you know, was published by an independent press, which is different than if you're going with one of the big, big, big ones, right? I mean, that— does that matter? Like, what, what about as far as what kind of publishers you do?
Yeah, I was going to mention that as well. I mean, the independents can actually be— and there's certain independents for which this is not the case, but the majority of independents have a less high barrier of entry for the recognition that you have to have. All publishers in nonfiction are looking for your expertise. So Paula, in your case, you brought an expertise that was evident and credible beyond your social media following. So I think that focusing on engagement, also being present and consistently on one platform versus being Spread way too thin and being present on none of these platforms is really important. If you can make the case to a publisher, I always say, what are we— what are they not seeing about you when they Google you? Is the first thing an agent or publisher does when they receive your proposal or your manuscript, if they're interested, is go to Google you. If you have no visibility there, that's going to be a bit of a problem because who is going to come to you if you don't have an existing audience or any recognition? So Focusing your platform on the strengths that you bring to the equation and really making the case for those is so important in making the case to an agent or a publisher.
Well, I guess if you're a fiction author, it's okay to be reclusive and to not be on the internet and to not have a website and to not— you know, I guess it doesn't really matter for fiction, but for non-fiction it matters. You want to be seen, you want to be out there, you want to continue the conversation with people beyond the book, right? Um, and we're going to talk about courses, yours especially, in, in a moment.
I wanted to say one thing there, Paula, about the visibility. For people in the trade of finance or psychotherapists or PhDs or other academics and researchers, for, I guess journalists is a bit different, but for those sorts of experts, a social media presence at all is still not required, right?
Yeah.
Like, they are thrilled if you have one, they're thrilled if you have an email list, but when you bring those kinds of credentials, it's long understood that those are private industries where privacy is respected. And your platform then becomes about your experience, your credibility, and your degrees. So I just wanted to bring that up for anyone in the audience who's not an expert in the classic way, but is a sort of known professional in their field.
No, that's really, really helpful. And you know, I think there's a common misconception also around self-publishing and who should self-publish. Because a lot of times people think, oh, I'll try to get a traditional book deal and then I can't get one. So I'll just self-publish, right? And so that's the way they go. But for me, I think if you don't have a huge following and people to already buy the book who already know you and love you, it is very difficult to move those books as a self-published author. Right? Would you agree?
Yes. I mean, the whole platform argument is still a pause. And just as you said, it's going to be harder without the infrastructure of a traditional pub— of any publishing arm with distribution or marketing or anything else that they are investing in you to go out as a self-published book and expect that people just read it. Right? You can count on your friends and your family. And if it's a legacy project, if it's a story dear to your heart that you just want out there, fantastic. Um, ditto if it's something more immediate, shorter form, needs to be published tomorrow, self-publishing is the way for you. But if you want that message to really scale and be distributed, um, if you want that professional support, you need to be with a traditional publisher, um, and or be prepared to learn how to be a publisher and run it like a small business.
Totally. Yes, exactly. I mean, having— being a traditionally published author is having a— is having a business. You know, when you write a book, it— you have a business. It's just the way that it rolls. That's what it is, better or worse, you know. But, you know, one of the things though too with, with self-publishing or traditionally publishing, you know, most authors actually do not sell that many books. Like, statistically, it's very low, right? Isn't that sort of the—
98% of books sell under 5,000 copies.
I mean, it's hard to sell books. It's very hard to sell books. People think, oh, it's a big deal. It is hard. You will have people come to your book signings and not buy the book. That has happened to me. People come up, they talk to you, they chitchat you, and then they leave and don't even buy the book. I'm like, what is happening? I just spent an hour pouring my heart out of my best list-making abilities to you, and then you go, you know? Yeah, never know.
You never know. You never know. And likewise, something can sort of light a match later in your career, right, Paula Rizzo? Like, you go on LinkedIn, you're an instructor there, someone might really think something you say is fantastic and they go to buy your book. And that could happen 8 years after. So you just really never know.
It is a long game, that I will say too.
Very much so.
And a lot of people put, you know, so much stock into the— and it's important— the kickoff of the book, the publishing pub day, all of that. But like, here I am 8 years later to tell you I am still talking about this book. I'm still doing media about this book. I'm still getting this book out there. It, you know, if you want it to, it can really sustain you for a long time if you, if you do the work in, in that way. And one of the ways that I think I've been able to do that as well is to give other offerings. So I've also had courses and classes and things that sort of take the book to another level. You have also decided to do this in your business and create some courses. You also have a book coming out soon about one of the courses. So can you just tell us a little bit about, you know, your decision to switch to courses and also what you, what you offer so people can, can, you know, follow you and go to your website, which we'll show in a minute.
Thank you. Well, so to be brief about it, when we decided to hire more agents to do that day-to-day in-the-trenches bookselling, at the very same time, it was the pandemic that hit. And I noticed that a lot of my authors and thought leaders were leading these really successful courses and building out email lists that would sell and market their, their sort of wares and their books. And I thought that was so fascinating, and I'd learned so much. And that united actually with when I founded my company, now going on 12 years, the mission was always to touch a wide swath of writers and sort of break down the barriers of exclusive and elitist publishing that have long existed, right? Publishing now is only sort of getting onto the message that we need to be more inclusive. What most publishing professionals still haven't yet realized is that we're giving very conflicting and exclusive messages to all of these writers that potentially have wonderful stories to tell. So I went back to that initial founding mission, and I'm doing a lot of coaching coaching and some recorded courses around how you break into this industry, how you learn what agents want, what publishers want today, how you think about it from like very sort of universal tactical immediately implementable ways of just taking our— I hope to think of them as formulas— applying them to your unique work and then creating a package that is much, much, much vastly more marketable and joyful in the process, right?
Yes, you want to have fun, you want to enjoy it.
You want to enjoy it and meet like-minded people in your community and not feel terrified of social media and just feel much more motivated and educated about this industry generally. So that, um, really went under the rubric of Get Signed. The business is Get Signed, and the book is also called Get Signed, and it's going to be released in February of 2024. It's compiling ex— interviews with a lot of industry experts, best-selling authors, uh, to really talk about this process. And, you know, it's been a very meta experience.
Yes. Now you're in it.
And getting signed has been incredible and has only increased my learning and what I can now teach new authors about sort of the challenges that I'm encountering and the rewards.
It does, it does make you kind of look at your expertise and what you do and systematize it and also say, oh, I didn't realize people didn't know that. I kind of thought that that's right. Isn't it interesting when you're, when Yes, when you put it down on paper in that way. Well, I'm so excited for the book. I'm so— can't wait. And obviously for the courses. So I encourage everyone to go to your website, um, and, and, you know, get on your list and, and learn from you. Um, so thank you for being here and, and giving us such great knowledge. That is, that is the QR code. If you're into QR codes, you can, you can get onto Lucinda's list right there by hitting that, um, on your phone. Lucinda, thank you for being here.
Thank you, Paula Rizzo. I've learned so much from you, so I, I hope you know, we continue the conversation with your audience.
100%, for sure, definitely. And you know, I do have a freebie for all of you authors out there as well. It is my 10 questions every author needs to be able to answer. If you go to paularizzo.com/10q, you can grab it there because, you know, people are gonna ask, what's your book about? And I mean, I get it, I'm writing a fiction book right now and people ask, what is it about? I'm like, oh gosh, I don't know.
I don't know what it's about. You're writing a novel right now?
Yes, I am. I have 90— 94,000 words right now. I am on my third, my third go of it. I just had my, my book coach read through it. She gave me all her notes. I'm thinking about working maybe with a, with a fiction, um, freelance editor to fix some of the craft stuff, you know, for you.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah, good. We'll talk about it offline because, you know, like, maybe I change, you know, point of view in between chapters. Maybe I, you know, I kind of just whatever. I got the story out though, so I'm excited about that. So that's my—
I admire you so much for all that you juggle.
Thank you. And it's exciting to learn. For me, I feel like it's a totally new thing now. Like, I, I sort of understand the non-fiction world. Fiction is, is different. So, you know, you do have to write the whole book, you have to get it out there, all of those things. So to be able to help authors, fiction or non- You can go to paularizzo.com/10q to grab those questions so you can answer any question that comes your way about your book. You know, so if you have questions, if you're watching this, leave them in the chat boxes below. I would love to answer them. And until next time, I will see you. Thanks for watching.
