Paula Rizzo interviews attorney Lisa Frawley about protecting small businesses legally without breaking the bank. They cover client agreements, trademarks versus copyright, refund policies, and when DIY legal templates actually work for entrepreneurs.
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Hey there, welcome to Inside Scoop. I'm Paula Rizzo and, uh, we're talking about starting a small business, but beyond that, how do you protect that business? I know it's super scary. Finally, you have this baby out in the world and you love having it out there and you're doing your thing and you're working with clients or you're writing books or whatever it is that your business is. But you have to think smart. You do have to think legally to make sure that you are covered. And I know a lot of you are cringing right now saying like, oh, I don't want to talk about it. It's like taxes, right? I get it completely and totally. But I have a guest today who I'm going to bring on in just a second who's going to make it super easy and show us the way. And it will not be scary, I promise, because it is important to make sure that you have these things mapped out and that you know what you have. And so you are legally covered. And we're going to revamp our legal mindsets. Believe me, it has to happen for all of us, myself included. And we're going to get to it today. But first, I have a free resource for you that I know you're going to love, and it'll help you to put yourself at the top of your list this year. If you go to check out my free list-making starter kit, you can get even more done with lists, of course, because you know how I love my lists. So if you go to paularizzo.com/list, you can check out my list-making starter kit and there's all kinds of stuff there. I'm also a LinkedIn Learning instructor and I have a whole bunch of courses that that can help you get your life in order, be more organized. One is how to set boundaries and protect your time. And you can check all of those out on LinkedInLearning.com to make sure that you can get, you know, get yourself a little bit organized and make sure that you're doing the right things, putting the right things on your list. That's what it's all about. And while you're watching this, you know, if you're watching this on the replay, we would love to hear from you. Leave some questions below in the chat boxes or tag a friend. Tag someone who you're like, eh, I know somebody who is a little bit scared, who is starting a new business and has no idea what she's doing legally, or she should know. And this is the kind little nudge that we're going to give her. Okay. Uh, so that is, uh, something, a niceness that you can give to your friend. Without further ado, I'd love to bring on my guest, Lisa Frawley. Thank you so much for being here. I've known you for quite a long time. We talk about things other than legal, but I'm so glad that you're here today.
Thank you for having me, Paula. Thank you so much.
Of course. Of course. And remind me the name of your book, because I know it just had a little birthday, right?
It did. In fact, I have it right here. Perfect. It's called Easy Legal Steps That Are Also Good for Your Soul.
Excellent. Excellent. And through the years, you and I have sort of been in the same circles and things like that. And you've always been so lovely when I have questions or I think, oh my gosh, I should be thinking smarter about this. You work with a lot of entrepreneurs. But what are some of the common fears and the common worries that people have on the legal side?
Yeah, so there are several. First of all, I think people are afraid, first of all, just of lawyers. They're afraid that lawyers are cold and corporate and scary, and that they are afraid that they won't know what to ask, they won't know what to say, that lawyers won't understand what it is that they do in their business, and so therefore may not offer them the right legal protection. So I think the first thing to realize is that lawyers can be warm and loving and caring people, and that What our whole mission on the planet is, or at least my mission on the planet, is to actually help you protect yourself and your business so you can show up and create anything that you want. You don't have to worry, you don't have to stress, you have all your legal protections in place, and that frees you to go create what you want without worrying. I think the second main worry, Paula Rizzo, is that people think it's just going to be ridiculously expensive and that they think that lawyers charge a fortune. And some do, no question about that. But it doesn't have to be that way. Not all lawyers do that. There are lawyers out there who charge just by the hour, by the project, or even do things like I do where we have do-it-yourself legal templates and things designed for entrepreneurs so that you don't have to start, start from scratch every time you're trying to find a legal document to match your needs. So those are the two biggest worries. I think people are just afraid of the law in general, and they're also just afraid it's going to cost a lot of money, and that doesn't have to be the case. Yeah.
I mean, you know, you hate to think about worst case scenario, right? Uh, but when you're doing these types of things, you think to yourself, like, would you rather have this happen or would you rather have that happen? Right? So thinking through this and pre-planning is really, really important. And it might not be the first thing you think of, you know, as a business owner, but it, it should be. And, you know, what is it about the legal mindset that we really, as entrepreneurs, that we need to switch and, and turn around?
Yeah, I think the idea is that the law actually helps to protect and support your business. A lot of times I think people do come looking for lawyers when something's gone wrong after the fact, and they're in a panic, and it's stressful and it's scary. But here's the thing, you know, it's just like taking care of your body or your money. The more you do on the front end to protect yourself and to put contracts in place or disclaimers or trademarks or website documents, the more that you'll feel relaxed as you move forward in your business and fewer things will go wrong on the back end because you have these protections on the front end that you can rely on. I always talk about the law being an and actually, and that's that it can be both protecting you in practical ways and energetically. So when you protect yourself with legal documents, you're giving yourself limited liability and reducing your risk and keeping yourself safe. And you're also switching the way that you actually show up in your business. People find this hard to believe. My clients find this hard to believe, Paula Rizzo, but you actually show up with greater confidence, with greater protection, with boundaries like you were talking about in the beginning intro. You have greater policies and boundaries for your business so that clients know how to show up for you. They know how to pay on time. They know what to do if they, if they're asking you for a refund, you know how to respond to That gives you policies and boundaries for your business in a way that can help you feel more confident and secure as a business owner.
Yeah, I love that. It's very clear. It's like, here are the rules. This is what we've set in place. This is how it goes. And it does make you come across much more confident, much more polished. Like, you know what you're doing as a business owner. Um, you know, I mean, I liken it a lot to, you know, knowing the money situation of your business, right? Like a lot of times people stick their head in the sand and they're like, oh, I don't want to know how much did I make this month? I'm not sure. I don't know. Did I pay myself? Like, this is a terrible way to run a business. You know, you really need to know those numbers. You need to understand it so that you know what are you working towards, what do you need to do. Um, you know, so for me, one of the first things I did was I got a bookkeeper because I was like, I don't like doing that myself, so I need somebody. Same thing, you need to get lawyers involved and people that you know that you can trust to be able to say, hey, here's what I'm looking to do, what should I be thinking about? Um, you know, it's not the sexiest thing, but it is something that we, we do need to do. So how do we change though that mindset? How do we feel more secure? Like, what are things that we can, that we can do as business owners?
Right. So first, I think, is really realizing that part of what enables you to be more productive, part that enables you to move forward in your business, is to actually take action steps, right? So even if you are a little afraid or a little apprehensive or a little concerned, what you want to do is be protecting yourself so that you can show up in a bigger way and relax even more. So the steps that you want to take are things having to do with Putting contracts in place for your clients, having website documents on your website so that people can't come and take your content. And if they do copy your content, you have language to fall back on. Protecting your brand with trademarks, making sure that you are— if you're building a team, that you're using contracts for your team to make it clear about expectations and responsibilities and payment and how that works. So the more that you actually take steps moving forward, small steps, one step at a time, just like how you build a business, Paula Rizzo. It's no different than how you build a business and you take one step each time as you go. Or just like crossing things off your list since you're the list expert, one thing at a time on your list. It doesn't have to feel overwhelming or exhausting or scary. You just go one step at a time. And that is the most important thing, is to actually get into action and get the protections in place.
And when you talk about trademarks, I think people are often, you know, have don't really understand what that means, what they should be trademarking if they have a program or if they have a book. I don't— can you trademark a book title? I don't think you can. Can you?
Good question. Yeah. So what can you trademark? Yeah. What you can trademark is actually things related to the marketing of your business. So trademark is for marketing. People don't realize that. Copyright is when you're copywriting like an entire book. This is what you use copyright protection for. But trademark for short things like the name of your business, your tagline, your logo, small tiny things. Um, you cannot trademark the name of a book unless it's part of a series in which the series has a brand identity that is separate from the book name itself. So for example, Harry Potter has turned into a whole brand in and of itself. It's not just a book, it's also a series of books. So you can trademark a series of books with its own brand identity. Otherwise, we'd have a lot of freedom of speech problems because so many book titles are so similar, even if they're about the same or different topics. So, but trademarking does help you protect yourself from a marketing and branding standpoint so someone can't come along and use your brand without getting your permission first.
That is the clearest I have ever, ever heard that. So thank you, because it is, it is very, very confusing. And I do think that it doesn't have to be confusing if you find the right expert like Lisa. Now you understand why I've kept her around for so long, you know, Because it really does help. Because otherwise, if this is not what you do all day, every day, and you're not thinking that in the context of how does this work for my business, it is very overwhelming. And it is, you know, it's difficult to understand. And you don't want to become an expert in these legal things, right? That's not helpful for your productivity. Um, what about some legal, legal documents to actually help support productivity? What, what, what do you suggest for people to, to get there?
Yes, the very first document to support your productivity is if you work with clients one-on-one, is to have a client Client agreement. I can't say it enough. Why? Because you're putting in writing your agreement with your client as to what's included in your program or services that you're offering, the payment, whether they can ask for a refund or how your refund policy works, how does communication work. You've put a lot of disclaimers and limitations of liability in place into that contract, and you're both signing your name to the dotted line. And that's important because it makes it very clear— again, clarity is key— that you both are agreeing to certain terms of the contract, and you both are going to show up in a in a better way. And when your client shows up knowing the expectations that you have for them, they show up and that helps them get their best. And that's what you want as a coach or an entrepreneur is to help them get the best out of them so that they get better results. That's one of the biggest piece. So using client agreements is critical as well as using other legal documents in your business. We've talked about before, like your website documents on your website, or if you have a group program or an online course, or you sell a do-it-yourself study course from your own website, you want people to agree to what I call terms of use so that they check the box when they're purchasing your program and agreeing to your terms. This, all of these contracts also, by the way, have intellectual property protections in them or should. And the reason for that is so that you're telling people they can't swipe or take your content. They can't use it in their own business without your permission. And it allows you to protect your content. So protecting your income and protecting your content are two of the ways to help yourself free your energy from worry and you go on to be more productive.
How did you come to do this work, Lisa?
Well, my background is I started as a healthcare attorney, actually in a large corporate law firm and a very coveted, cushy job. I was very honored and fortunate to have. I worked there for several years and like a lot of people who've worked in corporate America, I just felt very burned out. And so I switched and moved into the field of life coaching and then eventually health coaching. And what happened is that I had so many friends in the online space 10 years ago who were like, Lisa, most lawyers don't understand entrepreneurship or online entrepreneurship or coaching. Like, they don't get it. And so even though I was resistant at first, my own coaches helped me see that I could return to the law and actually be supportive and encouraging and freeing for coaches and entrepreneurs to understand that the law is there to be a tool to support you and to love up your business, not to scare you or to make you even more fearful. So I pulled the two together, Paula, back in 10 years ago and brought the expertise of an attorney with the love and care of a coach. And I've been a legal coach and attorney ever since.
I love it. Well, I mean, you've helped many, many entrepreneurs, so we are all happy to have you on this side of the legal field.
Thank you.
But one of the things that you do that I think you do so, so well is to template a lot of the things that people will need. I think people sometimes will be afraid of that, like, oh, it won't be exactly what I need. What do you say to that?
Yeah, so I have created over 45, I think we're up to 47 now, do-it-yourself legal templates designed for online entrepreneurs and coaches and those who are working in one-on-one relationships with clients or hiring team members or offering group programs or online courses. And the reason for that is because going to a lawyer is, can be just be really expensive to have the lawyer create the whole document from scratch. And what I was finding, Paula, was that so many of my clients and there have now been thousands and thousands of them who would go to their local attorney and get a document and then bring it to me and say, can you configure this for the online space? And it was ending up costing them more money and more time. And I thought, wait a minute, we need to reverse this and start with the language we need for the online coaching space or online entrepreneurship space, and then have people take it back. And if they need to have it reviewed by a local attorney in their state, they can do that and just have a few tweaks made rather than the other way around. So even though legal templates don't always meet your needs exactly, like any template cannot do that, but because I've been doing this for so long and have such a targeted group of people that I work with, I understand from both sides, being a coach myself and also being a lawyer, so that we have really headed off a lot of that, a lot of those weird quirks that might happen and created documents that work pretty well for most people in most cases. Of course there's, there are situations where it may not be the case, but in general, we've really tried to design documents that don't need very much tweaking at all.
Yeah. And we've talked a lot about the documents that you need, you know, on the front end when you first start working with somebody. So everybody is clear. Uh, there does come a time every once in a while when someone wants a refund and they are not happy with their service and they want to go do their thing. So let's talk about refund policies and why you need to have one.
Oh, refund policies are one of the most important concepts and one of the most important sections you need to have in any contract you have with the client. Because whether you give a full refund, a partial refund, like halfway through a course or program or services, or no refund, you want to spell it out and make it really clear. Because here's what happens, Paula. I had a client once who offered a $15,000 coaching program, and she had a contract that came from another lawyer, which is totally fine, but did not have a refund policy in it. And what happened was she had nothing in writing and the coach had to refund $15,000 back to the client because there was no refund policy in writing to say that you don't get a refund or here's a partial refund or here's how it works. So that happens all the time. And it can be very stressful when you've either spent the money already or you weren't anticipating that refund coming and you need that money to pay your rent or your bill, your or whatever. So it's, it's very disconcerting. So having a refund policy is critically important to make it clear and spelled out in your client agreement, your terms of use, anywhere where you're selling any type of service to a client. For sure.
Yes, absolutely. Again, clarity is key here. And this ties into your— you have a free refund policy guide on your website. If people— I would just wanna tell everybody about what they can find when they go to see you at lisafrali.com. Refundproof.
Yes, this is a guide that tells you the 4 key parts that all refund policies should have so that you can know how to make sure that the refund policy in your current contract is up to speed. Or if you don't have a client agreement or you don't have a refund policy, it will tell you what you need to have in the refund policy so that you're not going to feel that there are gaps where you have to give money back if you don't want to. So this is designed to help you check your own refund policies to see if they're up to snuff, Or if not, then how to have a refund policy that's constructed properly.
Perfect. And you are also a podcast host, which thankfully I have been on the podcast. Thank you for having me. And so I encourage everyone to check out that episode and all the others. And if you're on Lisa's email list, you'll find out all about it. But this is so helpful because I think it just takes a little, a conversation like this to just shake someone up and be like, hey, it's not that big a deal. Just do it., and you'll feel so much easier and you won't lose all of that time worrying after the fact if you're proactive.
That's right. It's always about being proactive, being clear, feeling safe, feeling secure, to help you feel more confident and empowered as a business owner so that you can let the legal documents do the heavy lifting for you. So you can just relax and create whatever it is that you want to create in your business without worry, without stress, without fear. So thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this today and for sharing the legal love with you and everyone. Um, I really am honored to be here and share these tips with everyone.
Of course. And I hope, uh, you know, anyone watching, if you have questions, leave them in the chat boxes below. We will be checking for those. So thank you for, for, uh, being here and hanging with us. And I also have a freebie for you as well, uh, for you to get my list-making starter kit. If you go to paularizzo.com/list, you can check that out and get yourself all situated with your lists to be more productive and successful and less stressed course. That is— that's the main goal here, be less stressed. Uh, thanks so much for watching, and we will see you next time.
