Inside Scoop: Sustainable Remote Office Strategy

Hey there, welcome to Inside Scoop. I'm Paula Rizzo. It feels like people are working everywhere and anywhere, and maybe you're confused about where you're working from today. In the beginning, you know, the pandemic, everybody was working from home, and now everybody's doing a little bit of everything. We were in triage mode, but today we're going to talk about how to create a sustainable remote office strategy. I have a great expert to bring on, uh, in just a moment, but it's important to think this through because this is the way the world is going. So you want to make sure that whether you're a business owner of one or a business owner of many, you have a strategy in place to make sure that you're, you're doing business in the best possible and most efficient and productive way. So we'll talk all about that today. Uh, if you have questions throughout the broadcast, if you're watching the replay, leave the questions below. Uh, we'll, we'll get back to them. We'll make sure to, to to, uh, answer those. And, uh, share this with anybody who you think might be interested. Just tag them below and make sure that they know all about this conversation, because I'm sure there's going to be some great little tidbits in here. And I do want to share a freebie with you that I know will be helpful. It is my list-making starter kit, because I love lists. You know, I'm the author of two books about list-making. So if you go to paularizzo.com/list, you can check out my list-making starter kit, because guess what? If we're going to create any kind of plan, it starts with a list. I'm going to be honest, just, you know, not to toot my own, my own list-making horn, but it's the truth. It really, really does. It does help. And I'm also a LinkedIn Learning instructor, and so is my guest, who I'll bring on in just a moment. But I do have a course all about enhancing productivity in a hybrid work environment. That's what we're talking about right now, right? We're talking about how can you live here, work there, maybe live here and work here. And so this is just some strategies for you to be able to do that. To do that better. If you go to paularizzo.com/linkedin, you can check out those courses. And without further ado, I would love to bring on my guest, Mike Gutmann, who is a remote work expert. Hey there, Mike.

Thanks for being here, everybody. And hi, Paula. Happy to be here.

Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad for you to be here. You are also a LinkedIn Learning instructor, which is how we met each other. And we were on a panel recently in LA talking all about you know, empathy in the, in the workplace and all this kind of stuff. But, you know, I think it's important for us to have this conversation now and to really think about how to have a sustainable remote strategy. So tell me, what are people, you know, especially business owners and leaders, what do they need to be thinking about most?

Sure. And just let's break down the word strategy. Strategy is something we measure. Strategy is something we plan ahead for. Not something we react to. So I think a lot of what people have been experiencing is that reactive mode where, hey, we're in an ever-changing world environment. We have to pivot very quickly. We don't have time to really think about the next 6 months, the next year, the next 5 years of how we want to ingrain remote work as a viable piece of our culture, as a piece of how we measure productivity. So I think if people aren't measuring their remote workers and their productivity related to the remote workers and their culture and everything else that you can measure around a strategy, you're not measuring it. It's not a strategy at all. So I would ask business leaders, what are you measuring? How are you tying these key metrics to your remote work strategy? And that's the starting place.

I see. It's interesting because, you know, I know we talked about this a little bit in our panel, but we were talking about how a lot of teams were tracking how people were working, how productive they were, uh, with like keystrokes and cameras and very invasive types of things. This doesn't work, right?

Yeah, this feels pretty gross, um, especially because there isn't transparency if that tracking software is on someone's computer. Oftentimes workers don't know how they're being tracked. So I think maybe let's define what tracking means. It means, you know, are you hitting your success metrics? Do you know what your goals are? Do you know what success means? And do you know what productivity means? Because if you're hitting those metrics that are defined within the responsibilities of your job, then it shouldn't matter how many keystrokes you're putting in per minute. It shouldn't matter how many— how much time you're putting in front of your screen.

Yeah.

You know, if you're in a creative role and you need to go on a run and you can help solve those problems creatively when you step away from the machine, you're working.

Yeah.

And oftentimes those, those moments where you're away from your computer really add to your productivity and can unlock some problems that you're trying to solve. So measuring keystrokes and butts in seats equals productivity does not work in this day and age.

Yeah. And also kills your soul, you know?

Oh, please. Yes. Agreed. It feels like Big Brother.

Yes. But, you know, thinking, thinking through like redefining productivity, thinking through because it used to be in the old days, it was like 8 hours a day. You go to work for 8 hours. That is a productive day because you were at work for 8 hours. That is not how we define and, and deal with productivity now. So how can we start to think about productivity differently? Maybe in goal setting or saying, you know, here's, you know, I love a good to-do list. So maybe like the to-dos are done or, you know, what do you advise?

Well, let's talk about that, you know, hey, everybody be productive between, you know, 8 and 5 or whatever it is. Well, raise your hand if you've ever felt like you needed to take a nap around 2 o'clock. That's not my most productive time. But so why should I be sitting in front of my computer during those slumps just to show face for my boss? But you mentioned goal setting. That's a huge one. Understanding what your metrics are and being held accountable to those metrics is really an important piece. And also alignment. How do we make sure that whatever metrics I have align with the teams that are on either sides of me and that are aligned with the overall strategy of the company? And I think if we know what alignment looks like, we know what our metrics are, we know what our timelines are, then it shouldn't matter where we work or how we work, as long as the quality of work is being done. In the time that is allotted and those metrics are being hit. That is what paints a picture of success, not time in, it's results out. So a results-based environment is one that teams should strive for.

OK, so results first. That's the way to do it. I remember, and you, I mean, you've studied this a lot, so you probably know this even better than me. But I remember that years ago, Netflix was one of the very first companies that allowed people to sort of work whenever they wanted. I don't know if it's— I mean, now everybody does this, but they were like one of the very first ones that it was like, we don't care what time of day you work as long as your stuff gets done. It could be at midnight, it could be whenever, whatever. And it was like, I remember doing stories about this like, you know, 10 years ago and people like lost their minds. They were like, what do you mean I can work at 11 PM if that's my best possible time to work? You know? Yeah. So we've, we've caught up a little bit.

I think we have. And everybody's wired differently. I am more productive in the morning. Some people are more productive at night. Yeah, I remember reading an article of when people got their work done, like famous icons like da Vinci or Galileo. And I don't know how they measure these things. We're like, yeah, da Vinci did all of his work, you know, past midnight. So, you know, who's to say when you're going to be on, be your best and where, you know, the synapses start to fire. Yeah. And oftentimes let's talk about people with families, people with different life circumstances where they just have to operate on different time schedules to make it all fit. So if you want to bring your A-players to the table and have an inclusive environment, adding that flexibility is going to allow for them to dictate and say, hey, you want me to show up to the table? Here's what I need. Yeah, here's how I can be supported. And if you're not asking the question, how can I support you to be your best, then I think organizations are missing the mark.

Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it really, it behooves them because it's like you're going to get your best work out of that person if you just let them do it at the time they want to. You know, I, I call it your own personal productivity style. And so in my book, Listful Living, I talk about it quite a lot to be able to hone in and figure out when, when are you most productive? Because sometimes people think that they know, but you really have to watch yourself and see, like, I am actually one of those people that around 2, 3 o'clock my productivity goes way up. I don't know why. It just is. I'm not a morning person. It's not my thing. I used to think when I worked in corporate America, I thought around 3 o'clock I would get this boost because I'd leave around 5. So I thought like, oh gosh, it's that like I have to finish before I leave. But now that I work for myself, it's the same thing. I just get that burst of energy right after lunchtime. And, you know, I know that to be true for me. So I stack my day that way purposely. It makes a big difference.

Well, all your other colleagues are napping during that time.

Yes.

Probably some quiet time for you to really skyrocket with your productivity.

True. Yes. I take advantage of the siesta in a different way.

That's great. That's great. And I mean, let's bring it back to strategy, right? Because I think that's what people and organizations are trying to figure out. How do we formulate an actual strategy. And I think it needs to be flexible because, you know, the Paula Rizzo of today whose productivity skyrockets at 3, fast forward 3 months, there might be some life things that happen where, you know what, that's going to change.

Sure.

So what I always recommend people do is they list out— I'm using lists, learning. I love it. I know they list out, you know, when and how they're most productive and ask their people what that is. And check in with them on a quarterly basis because that might change. And if everybody knows when everybody else is most productive and how other people like to work, then they can support each other and they can support them.

And it's out, it's out in the open. It's like, hey, you know, I'm not waiting on something because I know that she's not going to do that until midnight or something, you know what I mean? So I don't feel like, oh, she's dropping the ball. No, that's just when she does her work. I have someone that I work with. She's a contractor. She does contracts. And so anytime I work with her, she does them very late at night because she likes to be completely quiet so she could read through the contracts. I mean, obviously that's the kind of person you want, right? Who's very detail-oriented. But I used to be like, what? When she would say end of day, to me, that was a different end of day. But as soon as I got on the same page as her, I was like, oh, you mean end of day, end of day, like midnight end of day, you know, then, then everything changed. But it really, it's, you know, we talk about also, you know, building trust. And that is, that's a huge one to just have all of this out on the table first.

Yeah, I think so. And we talk about trust. We talk about accountability and holding people to their goals. You know, we've been working remotely since we were in school, right? It's called homework. And parents trust their students to be able to do homework and they're accountable for their grades. And these are things that for some reason, when we entered corporate America, that trust just went away. Like we've all been doing it for a long time. I think when there is goal setting that is not dictated but collaborative, where people can go with their team, say, hey, here's our long-term goals, and let's chunk that up into smaller micro goals. Let's together come up with what we think we can accomplish with our bandwidth. And you can start to socialize how much bandwidth you have, what your velocity is gonna look like. And I think there's something powerful when leaders allow their team to own their goals and come up with them in a collective, collaborative environment rather than being dictated. Because when you can decide what your own goals are and have a say, you have more ownership and you can be held accountable to those goals. And that builds trust over time, right? If I'm able to hit my small micro goal, my manager is going to trust me even more. And then that trust continues to build. If I don't, then that's an opportunity for the manager to say, hey, what happened here? How can I support you again? And does there need to be a little bit more handholding?

Yeah.

So I think those conversations need to, need to happen more frequently.

Yeah. And the idea of support, I mean, that's important. It's, it's not just— there's a real mindset switch here. You know, it's not just like, hey, what can you do for me? No, no. It's like, how can I support you to work your best possible, you know, be your best possible work self, right? I mean, that is a big, that is a big differentiator, I think, for a lot of managers.

Yeah, I think this, this element of choice is what people want. And all the work that I've done around remote work, consulting with leadership teams, building policy, building strategy, it really does come down to choice and having a say. People want ownership. They want ownership again of where, how, and where they work. But they also want a choice in how and what projects they're working on. And what goals they're setting. And again, they likely want to succeed as an employee. That's oftentimes where we get fulfillment in our jobs. But having a say what goals I'm going to hit is a game changer for people.

Yeah. Well, what about the idea of, of tools to help to thrive? Because, you know, we talk about, OK, so what do you need to be successful? What tools should people have sort of like in their back pocket or what do we talk about with, with that?

Well, I think most people know the tools that you're using right now, whether it be something as simple as email and, you know, using Google Documents. People might use Slack or some sort of instant messenger, Microsoft Teams. All these are fine. It's, it's less about the tool and more about how you use it. So I guess my tips for tools would be if you're using Zoom often, are you a power user? Have you spent the time to really dive deep into Zoom and know all the different buttons and functions that your team can do it. Same with Slack, same with any tool that you're using. If you're a manager and you're not a power user and you've not spent just 2 hours, just like 2 hours, and you can go and dive deep in all the different functionality, then you're missing an opportunity to really increase your productivity with the tools they're using. And then the added piece of that is, again, for having a strategy, be intentional about how you use the tools. Think about all the different types of circumstances you might encounter during the day, whether it's you're a communication tool, you're brainstorming, or you have a tap on the shoulder question, or you want to have an asynchronous conversation. Have you asked your team how they like to use all of these tools in those different circumstances?

Right.

Because for somebody like me, for brainstorming, I might want to think about an idea first before I jump into a Zoom meeting and say, ready, brainstorm.

Yeah.

Or for a tap on the shoulder question, that might be better in an email so I can get to it later. It might not be urgent immediately, or if it is urgent, how do you handle those? What platforms do you use?

Yeah.

So if you're not thinking about all those circumstances and the tools you would use to communicate in those circumstances, then that's an opportunity for your team to improve.

Yeah, I agree. And also, you know, to your point, like having the rules of like when we use Slack, it means this. If I'm texting you, it means it's urgent, you know, so that we all all have the same sort of communication, uh, you know, playbook. So we know when this message comes in like this, this is what that means, you know. And some people may not, um, you know, I remember having bosses who would never check their email, and so it'd be like, unless you call him or her, it is not happening, right? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Preferences too, and setting boundaries. Let's talk about your person you work with who, you know, work end of day is midnight, um, Just because that person sends an email at midnight does not mean you're obligated to respond. So understanding where your overlap working hours are, but also where you're stepping away from work and letting your team know where your boundaries are. And I remember we did a study when I was at FlexJobs of is your work-life balance ever impacted by the work-life balance of your boss? And 100% of people raised their hand, said yes, absolutely. It makes sense, right? You want to be able to impress your boss and they set the tone. So if you are a leader out there, your work-life balance is impacting your team. Just be aware of that. If you're sending emails or Slack messages after hours or after the hours that your team has said to you, that's impacting their mental health and their well-being.

Yeah.

And also, you mentioned, Paula, texting. Is texting appropriate for your team?

Right.

I think that's something that you need if that has not been said outright. Setting those boundaries. Some people don't have two different phones. Oftentimes people don't have two different phones for their work and their life. If your work is infiltrating your phone on the text level, that could be considered an invasion into your personal life and you have to protect that. And if you're a leader, you should be asking if that's an appropriate communication platform.

Yeah. Oh, totally. Well, you know, I came from the TV news world where everything was invasive. You know, it was like they were going to call you there and text you. They're going to come. Hunt you down, find you at home, you've got to come in, you know. So it's different. And that's the thing, from, from industry to industry, depending on what the, what the things that you need to do for the job are, it matters, you know. And, and I remember I had a boss once who, she had the very, like, one of the very first BlackBerrys. Remember BlackBerrys back in the day?

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

So she had one of the very first, and so she was crazy with it and she loved it, and she would do it like at night, and you would— so you come in in the morning, none of us had any phone like that, you know, you'd come in the next morning, there'd be like 100 messages. Yes, I feel so behind, and now I need to like do what I was gonna do and also make sure— and she thinks you've already like messed up because you didn't reply back. It just was like not, not a good scene.

Oh yeah, setting boundaries. And let's also— can we talk about meetings for a second? Because everybody was like, okay, I'm over it. Um, I just saw in Google Google Meetings, you can put in what your hourly rate is and you can see how much a meeting actually costs.

Oh, amazing.

Is also scary. You know, how much transparency do we want to, you know, pay scale? That's a whole nother topic. But I think setting boundaries for meetings is important, right? Do I have permission to opt out of a meeting? Has your boss given you that permission? And I think understanding, is this meeting adding value to me? Am I offering value to the team? Am I contributing in this meeting or am I just sitting in the back listening to this meeting? Could this meeting have been a Slack message or email? Is this meeting about a future meeting? Right. Thinking about all these different ways we can reduce meetings and work asynchronously is a really important thing to be mindful of, and it will help with your strategy. Again, this is all about a remote work strategy. You know, regardless of where you are on the spectrum of where the pendulum is swinging at your organization, whether you are fully remote or you're gradually moving back to the office or you're fully in the office, but sometimes you can work remote, being intentional. And that, yes, that is a really important word, being intentional with where you're showing up to do work and how you're showing up to do work and making sure that the goals that are assigned to the work that you're doing, that the behavior is supporting those goals, because oftentimes meetings do not support that behavior, does not support the goals you're trying to Definitely.

I mean, clarity will just win every single time, you know, just be clear and everybody will be on the same page. It's really helpful. You mentioned about back to the office, so let's talk about that. This will be my, my last bunch of questions for you. But I just, I'm curious because, you know, a lot of people, I have a lot of friends who work in corporate America. You know, I work for myself, so I've always been remote. I'm thrilled to be remote and not have to go into an office. Uh, but I have a lot of friends that now, you know, they're, they're forced to go back, or there's a hybrid model and they don't love it. And so what, what's your, what's your thoughts on this?

It's painful to watch. It's painful for a lot of people. Again, in all the work that I've done, people want choice. So there are some people who want to go back to the office.

Yes, great.

There are some people who don't. Great. What I think is happening is that people want to go back to the old way and this new normal. They're like, no, this new normal, I didn't like it. So we're putting it back in the people in leadership positions, the ones who are again dictating the terms. And you end up with people who, you know, want to be there for the company, say, okay, I'll do this, but I don't love it. And now what you've done is you've made your leadership teams and people at all different tiers of your leadership, you know, layers of leadership. You're forcing them to swallow a pill and then dictate those terms all the way down the ladder. And if you're somebody who, you know, doesn't love this idea and you're forced to put on a happy face and tell your people because that's the corporate message, think about that, what that does to your morale. Think about what that does to the trust with your company, because what that's saying is, I no longer trust you to do the work and to be able to know your goals, but I'm only going to trust you if you're in the office. This is the type of environment I want to create. And I think what it does is it's dictating the terms as a leader and saying, this is how I need you to follow, versus asking the question, what type of leader do you want in order to feel like you want to lead and follow that person?

But I feel like there will be pushback on that, right? Because leaders will say, well, I'm leading the game. I don't want, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen. I don't want to hear everybody's opinion. This is my business. This is how I want to do it. I mean, that is a very old school way of thinking.

Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, based in a military, like, hierarchical, hey, follow orders, step in line or else you're out of here. And I think that as the pendulum shifts, right, the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Everyone got a taste for remote work. It is going to shift back and forth. That's just the way it's going to happen. But my prediction is that the adoption of remote work is going to gradually rise and rise, especially as you know, tech-enabled generations, people who grow up with cell phones— I did not grow up with a cell phone— and are able to communicate electronically. And that is kind of their first nature, that as those people start to take leadership positions, people are going to be more and more comfortable with, again, investing in choice.

Yeah, definitely. I agree. I mean, I love it. I've always had a remote, remote team and I'm pro remote.

But, you know, I'm pro-choice when it comes to, you know, having a say.

Yes, exactly right. Some people do like being in the office and good, good for them. That's nice. You can, you can be in your, in your, in your cubby and your cubicle and enjoy, enjoy some stress-free work time, right? Yeah.

And some social time, right? People, some people are lonely. A lot of people are lonely. And having some sort of like camaraderie and community around work is a good thing that can be done remotely. It certainly can be done in the office. Again, it takes intentionality to do it right.

Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Well, Mike, thank you so much for being here. And I want to point everyone to your website, succeedremotely.com. You're also a LinkedIn Learning instructor. I mentioned that. But tell us a little bit about your courses that you have on LinkedIn Learning.

Yeah, so I just hit over a million learners. I mean, I have to look at my, my metrics. I'm very close if I haven't hit it yet. Very close. So I teach about remote work strategies for every type of employee that there is, whether you're in a leadership position. I've got a next level to that course which dives into a little bit more in-depth strategies of being inclusive in a remote environment. And I also teach about remote work policy and how to find a flexible job. And so you can check all those courses out just by searching my name, Mike Guttmann on LinkedIn Learning.

Perfect. Awesome. Mike, thank you again for being here. I'm so happy to chat with you about all of this stuff. It's been very, very fun to see the evolution of it.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love doing this stuff. I love promoting remote work again as a strategy. So for those of you who are out there who are looking to figure out how to incorporate this into your learning and development teams or your corporate structure, let me know. I'm open to a conversation.

Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thanks again for being here and thank you all for watching. Very happy to have you here as always. Again, you know, if I want, uh, to point you towards something that I think will help is a list-making starter kit that I have. You go to paularizzo.com/list. I have lots of, uh, great ideas, uh, if I do say so myself, on productivity and how to be more efficient no matter where you're working. So I, you implore you to check that out. So thank you all for being here, and, uh, I will see you all next time.