Paula Rizzo and Gretchen Rubin discuss how remote work creates a chance to rebuild habits from scratch. Rubin's Four Tendencies framework sorts people into Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, and Rebel types, each needing different strategies for accountability and boundaries. Concrete tools like "don't break the chain" trackers and the 1-minute rule make habits stick.
Chapters
Hey everybody, welcome. We're so glad to have you here today. My name is Paula Rizzo. I'm an Emmy Award-winning television producer and the author of two books about productivity, Listful Thinking and Listful Living. I really love lists. You'll get to know that about me. I'm also a LinkedIn Learning instructor and I have several books about, you know, books and courses all about, you guessed it, lists and productivity, but I also have courses about hybrid and remote work, including Enhanced Productivity in a Hybrid Work Environment. And I'm going to be joined in just a moment by another LinkedIn Learning instructor, Gretchen Rubin, who's a bestselling author and has a course all about habits. She'll be joining me in just a second for the second installment of LinkedIn Learning's 6-part series on the future of work. We're going to dive into this question: How can we harness this moment of change because we're in a moment of change, right? A lot of you don't know if you're going back to the office, when you're going to go back to the office, if you're going back to the office, there's a lot going on. So how do we harness this moment of change to determine our habits and which ones serve us and which ones don't? And if you're, you know, out there and you have developed a new habit, I'm, I'm sure you have, all of us have, in how you work, how you live, put your, whatever that new habit is in the chat boxes or put a Y for yes if you've, created a new habit over, you know, quarantine and during the pandemic and all of that because we've had to adapt, we've had to change. Some of us have taken up new hobbies and new habits. Maybe it comes in the form of puzzles, right? A lot of us have taken up puzzles and that kind of thing during the pandemic, or maybe reading a chapter of a book before you go to bed. That's mine. That is something that I now do and I look forward to every single day. Uh, there might be some new ruts also as we develop these habits. It might come in the form of the Instant Pot, which I have to say, I loved the Instant Pot and then I overdid it. I got into the Instant Pot rut and I made way too much Moroccan chicken and my husband was like, enough, we can't do the Moroccan chicken anymore. So, you know, these habits, these things that we go into, sometimes they serve you, sometimes they don't. So no matter whether or not you're going into the office full time or perhaps you're going to be doing a hybrid work model where sometimes you'll be in the office and sometimes you'll be remote or working from home, Or maybe you'll be like me, working from home all the time, which I love. This is going to be a change. So either way, no matter where you're going to be working, let's take this moment of flux to really shape our habits, to serve us where we are and where we want to go next. And I want you to be involved in this conversation. So throughout this conversation, when I bring Gretchen on in just a moment, we want to hear from you. So leave us your questions, your comments, your thoughts in the chat boxes. And if you're watching the replay, Leave it for us there too. We'll check it out afterwards. And I also want you to tag somebody, tag a friend, tag a coworker, maybe tag your boss, tag whoever you think would really benefit from this conversation and would want to get in on this and talk about habits. So without further ado, let me bring in bestselling author Gretchen Rubin, who has written The Happiness Project. Of course, many of you know her from that. And Gretchen, that's how you and I first met was through The Happiness Project. I, at the time, was a senior health producer at Fox News Channel, and I booked you as a guest to talk all about happiness. And there we are. That was in 2014 in the green room chatting up about happiness and list-making because you're a listener just like me, which I love.
Absolutely. I remember that well. After the interview, we just hung out and kept talking and talking. We were interested in so many of the same things. That was so fun to— Totally. Reconnect over and over through the years.
Oh, absolutely, for sure. And, you know, since then you've gone on to create your own podcast and become a real authority on habits and human nature. So I'm excited to get your perspective on this new future of work. Why is this right now? Why is this such a critical moment for habits?
Well, you pointed it out in your introduction, like we're in such a point of transition. There's so much flux. And what research shows is that often a really good time to change a habit is when there's a clean slate. When old habits are wiped away, new habits can rush in. Now, there's a negative side to this, which is that when you have a disruption, you may find it hard to keep up a habit that has served you well. So, like, during the current disruption, some people had trouble maintaining a habit of exercise because maybe they went to the gym that was across the street from their office. And now that they're not going to the office, they had to recreate, rebuild a habit of exercise. And so that was a challenge. Now a lot of people are going back, starting to go back, or kind of rethinking what do they want their work life to be. And this is a great time to say, I want— I was looking at what people were suggesting. I want to have meditation in the middle of the day. I want to start my day with a cup of coffee and kind of sitting and enjoying nature. Or whatever it is. And because this is a clean slate and you're sort of in a new environment and you, you're not part of those old habits, new habits can form more easily. And here's the thing that I would say if you're going back to the office, however you start is very much how you're going to continue. So right from that first day, do it the way you want. If you want to say, hey, I'm going to have a boundary, I'm going to leave every day at 6:30, leave every day at 6:30 that first day, that first week, because that's what's going to start to cement. The vending machine, you could just say to yourself, I haven't been to that vending machine in 18 months and I'm never going back. I'm never going to even walk down that hallway. Because if you never do it the first time, if you start the way you want to continue, that will start to be the habit and that will start to have that kind of automatic autopilot habit that can make our lives so much easier.
That takes some planning, though. That takes some preplanning and thinking ahead and thinking through before you step through those doors or before you start this new thing. Right. So how do we develop these habits? How long does it actually take? And what is the pre-planning process? Because you know me, I'm all about, as a producer, I'm all about let's talk about the plan beforehand before it actually happens. So, what do you suggest?
Well, one thing is sometimes people think that there's a magic number like 21 days or 66 days to form a habit. And the fact is there's no magic number. A hard habit can take a long time to set into concrete. A habit like having a donut with your morning cup of coffee, that probably 2 days is probably enough for that habit.
Totally. Delicious habit. Yes.
Yes. So, so there's no magic number, but you're exactly right. One of the things to do is to think ahead about what you want, like what would your perfect day look like or what do you want to have get done over the course of the week? And because a lot of times we fall into default habits like you mentioned, reading a chapter before bed, you may just be in the habit of scrolling through social media before you go to bed and you've just sort of developed that habit thoughtlessly. It's not even like you care about it that much, but by stepping back and having a set, like thinking like, What do I really want to do with that time? Where would I get the biggest bang for my time, energy, and money? Well, I think I'd get a lot more out of reading a chapter of a book. And so then you can start to think about it. So a lot of it is about thinking about, well, what would make me happier, healthier, more productive, more creative? And how does that translate into concrete and manageable habits that I could follow? And it's really important to be concrete. What exactly are you asking of yourself? Because it's very easy to say, like, well, I want to eat healthier.
I want to help—
I want to make time for fun. I want— I don't want to— like, I want to make sure I make time for friends. It's like, okay, which Monday— it's Monday night. Did you do it right? Something like, I'm gonna pack a lunch and bring it from home instead of ordering fast food. You know whether you did that or not. But did you eat healthier? You're like, well, in some ways I ate healthier, in some ways I didn't. I don't know. But if it's very concrete and very specific and manageable, then you can measure it.
And, you know, look, I love a good list, and I feel like this is a good time for some list-making because a lot of times people, as you're saying, I mean, this is why a lot of New Year's resolutions don't work because people will say things like, "Oh yeah, I want to be healthier." What does that mean? What does that look like specifically, right? So to notice yourself and to start saying, "Hey, here's the things," putting this on a list, even over time, to be able to say, "Oh, I wish I could do more like this," or whatever. I mean, what do you suggest for people to really capture these ideas wherever they are? Because I think sometimes when we're put on the spot, yes, you can't think of it.
Well, this is a huge question. And I actually created a journal for this, this Don't Break the Chain tracker, because a lot of people like you who like to make lists and also like the feeling of checking something off, that can be very powerful. It's sort of a sense of self-accountability, but also kind of that gold star that you give yourself. And it forces you to be specific because you're like, did I or did I not do that? Do I get to check off this day? And you also learn from yourself, like you say, well, I really do better during the weekday than on the weekends. Maybe I need to rethink about how I'm going to exercise on the weekend because that seems to be the place where I don't follow through. And you can start to see patterns or, wow, when I go to bed before 11, I feel a lot better all day than when I go to bed at, you know, 12:30. You start to see patterns and, and by checking it off, This kind of streak mentality, this kind of don't break the chain for many people is very effective. And I think for people like you who love a list and love kind of like the feeling of tracking, don't break the chain is particularly powerful.
Yeah, it is. It definitely— I can see that because, you know, you do sort of— I mean, I do this with packing lists. I don't sit down and make a packing list. I make a packing list over time because, oh, I'm going to— I want to make sure to bring this. This stuff takes a little bit of time. And in my second book, Useful Living, I do have a few journal entries there too for for people to think about what do you want your life to look like?
Yes.
What would you like to feel? How would you like— you know, and some of this is kind of like woo-woo, and I don't want to get too into it. You know, it doesn't have to be all, you know, about, you know, meditation, and which I love, but it, it's not just that you're just thinking of an idea and then it will happen. You have to actually do things to make it happen. You have to, you know, writing the list is not enough. You have to get, get down, down to business on it.
Absolutely.
What about our personalities? Because, you know, for me and you, like, we're kind of, you know, similar. And so people will say, oh, you guys find this easy. Yes, I work at this. You work at this. You know, this is not something that it's just like, oh, it comes innately, always, something. So tell us about personalities and how we can evaluate our own personalities to know how can we create better habits tapping into ourselves, really?
Well, I mean, this was a question that was like the million-dollar question when I was working on my book Better Than Before, which is all about habit change, because I was like, there are all these patterns that I would see where people would or wouldn't successfully develop a habit. And I could tell that it was falling— that people were kind of in groups. And I was trying to understand why that was. And a friend of mine said to me, I don't understand it. I know I'm happier when I exercise. And when I was in the— on the on the track team in high school, I never missed track practice, so why can't I go running now? So what I realized is that people fall into 4 categories: Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, and Rebels. And I'm gonna explain it briefly and we'll talk about it. Most people know what they are and their coworkers and family members and friends, Game of Thrones characters, Parks and Rec characters. These are very blatant once you're looking for them. But if you like a quiz and like to get a little report, you can go to, uh, gretchenrubin.com/fourtendencies and take my free quiz. Like 3 million people have taken the quiz, but most people don't need to take the quiz. I will describe this and why it matters for your habits. So what we're looking at is how people meet expectations, outer expectations like a work deadline, inner expectations like I want to read a chapter of a book before bed every night.
Sure.
Upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They keep the work deadline, they meet the— they meet a New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to keep their expectations for themselves just as much as they want to meet expectations from others. Their motto is discipline is my freedom. Hmm. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do it if they think it makes sense. They resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified. They have to know why. If something meets their inner standard and makes sense, they'll do it. No problem. If it fails their standard, they will push back. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. An obliger is the biggest tendency for both men and women. You know many obligers, or you are an obliger. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And so to meet an inner expectation, they must create a system of outer accountability. You want to read more? Join a book group. You want to exercise more? Work out with a trainer, work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up, raise money for a charity, think about your duty to somebody else, your duty to your future self. But the key thing is to create that outer accountability. And so their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. This is the smallest category. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And they typically don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't sign up for a 10 AM woodworking class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday, and just the idea that someone's expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me. And neither can I. So once you know your tendency, you can really dial into that tendency to help you keep a habit. So if you're an obliger, as I said, it's the biggest tendency and you want to exercise, you don't want to say things to yourself like, well, other people can just get up and go for a run in the morning. I should be able to do that. It's like obligers really struggle with that. That doesn't work for them. Develop a system of outer accountability. But rebels, they don't like a system of outer accountability. They don't like meeting a friend every morning. They're like, I want the freedom to do what I feel like. Maybe One day I'm doing yoga, one day I'm doing calisthenics, one day I'm doing weight training. Like, I do what I feel like. I, I'm a, you know, I'm a person who takes care of their body. That's why I'm doing it. That's what I feel like doing. So if you fight against your, your nature, you can make it harder for you to follow through even on aims that are very, very important to you. And a lot of people get discouraged. Whereas if you're like, okay, I'm a questioner, I really have to believe that this form of exercise is efficient and effective for me. It needs to be customized for me and I have to really believe in it and understand it and like acknowledge the expertise of the person who's telling me to do strength training. Because somebody just hand waving and being like, oh, you know what, you should do this, it's like, yeah, it's not very— why would I do it? Yeah, why would I?
Yeah, it's so important to, to look at yourself in this way, you know, and to know this about yourself. Because a lot of times people will beat themselves up and be like, why can't I just be more like so-and-so? Yes, she gets up in the morning, she goes to the gym at 4 AM, and she does, you know, she feels happy. It's like We're not all the same. You know, a lot of times people will ask me, oh, what notebook do you use to write your list? Do you do it this way? And I'm always like, it doesn't matter what I do. It matters what works best for you, your own personal productivity style. This is the same thing. No, I couldn't agree more. Right? I mean, and, but with teams, this is interesting because if we're talking about a team dynamic and now you sort of know this about someone on your team, how can you work better together? Because you know, you may have thought like, oh, that person is just like, they don't like me. They don't do anything I tell them to do. Like, but that might not be the case.
No, it's enormously valuable with teams because it lets you think about why people might need something to be different from what makes sense to you. So to just give a familiar example, let's say I'm a manager and corporate has said we're going to switch to a different kind of accounting software. And I have to tell the team, hey, we're going to switch. You're going to use this, this software instead of that software. So I'm explaining it and people's heads are nodding and some people's hands going up, going up, going up, going up. And then everybody else is starting to roll their eyes and say, "Oh my gosh, why do we have to sit through this?" Well, if I know that some people are Questioners and they're not going to do it if they don't understand why it makes sense, I, as the manager, could say, "If you feel like you've heard enough about why we've decided that it makes sense for us to make this change, please feel free to return to your desk and get back to work. If you would like 'If you want to hear more about the logic and the reasoning behind why we think this is the right way to go, I'm happy to stay here and answer all your questions.' I'm answering the questions for the people who need that extra bit of rationale, but I'm not forcing everybody to sit through it who doesn't feel like they need to have it. Or let's say I'm a boss and I'm dealing with somebody who I can tell thrives. A friend of mine said that when she applies for jobs, she says to somebody, 'I thrive with a tough boss.' boss. Are you a tough, demanding boss? Because that's how I do my best work. She's an obliger. She thrives in that. And a lot of workplaces kind of automatically have that because you have deadlines and deliverables and teams and all that.
Sure.
But some people are rebels and they're like, I don't want to be micromanaged. Don't look over my shoulder. I got the chops for this. Back off. Tell me what you need done and I'll do it and I'll blow you away with what I can do. And if I'm managing that person, I mean, I'm like, let's not have a weekly check-in. Maybe if I think that that's going to build up a spirit of resistance. If I don't really need it, if I'm thinking, oh, well, this will just help this person. Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't. I need to have that insight. And if I'm working with a team member and I'm thinking, wow, this person seems really cold, like we had to hand in our reports. And I said, hey, can you take 45 minutes and proofread my report? And the person said, no, sorry, I'm working on my own report. I don't have time to help you. I mean, like, what kind of coworker is that? Well, I would say that's like me. I'm an Upholder. And one thing that people often say about Upholders is they can kind of be cold. Because they think, well, I have to meet my expectations for myself, so maybe I can't meet the expectation for you. Whereas an obliger would be like, I absolutely am going to help you because you've asked for my help. Okay, I'm going to go that extra mile for you. That's why people love working with obligers, because they tend to like really go that extra mile. Yeah, but they feel frustrated because they're not meeting their expectations for themselves. So once you know this, you can kind of see how to harness everyone's strengths and then also how to buttress up people's limitations or weaknesses. So that we can all create an environment where we all thrive and we can all do our best work together.
Yeah, you answered the question that many people had in the, in the chat here is, you know, which one are you? So you're an Upholder.
Oh, I'm an Upholder.
Upholder, yeah.
This is the second smallest. Rebel is small, smallest. Upholder is second smallest. These are like the kind of extreme personality types.
Yes.
Ledger's biggest and Questioner is second. And Paula, I think that you're an Upholder too.
I think I am, yes. I, and I, you know, did take the quiz quite some time ago, but I am also an Upholder.
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.
But I, you know, I do find myself, and most people will, there's some things here about this, you know, in different situations I feel that I handle things a little differently sometimes, you know, and some people in the chat were saying, you know, I think I'm an Upholder on the weekends, but I'm a Rebel during the week. I don't know, is it possible to be more than one?
Well, certainly, like, no one likes to do anything that's just arbitrary. So in a way, we're all like Questioners. And no, everyone likes autonomy. So in a way, we're all like Rebels like that. And all of us in certain situations will do what's important to someone else, even if it's inconvenient or difficult for us. So we're like Obligers in that way. Um, but I do think that for most people, kind of like in the general stream of life, they do fit into a core tendency. And I don't think that you're one at work and one at home. And if you look at it, it's— you can probably tell. Like, if someone's like, oh, I'm an Upholder at work, but I'm a Rebel at home, I'm like, well, you're probably an Obliger, because you're finding that When you've got all this outer accountability from work, you follow through very well. When you're at home and the person who's telling you what to do is your sweetheart, well, turns out obligers consider sweethearts to be inner expectations, so they don't have any trouble saying no often to a sweetheart. Sweethearts don't make good forms of inner accountability. They can be resisted. And so a lot of times I think that patterns that look like, oh, I'm one here and one there are actually explained by the different kind of structures that you'll experience. I remember somebody saying to me, when I was a teenager, everybody would have said I was a rebel, but actually I was an obliger and I was doing exactly what all my friends expected me to do. So you have to go inside someone's head and really understand what's going on. Oh, and I should also say, with each of the tendencies, they all overlap because, like, Upholders are like questioners in that they both meet inner expectations, and upholders are also like obligers in that they readily meet outer expectations. So you can tip one way or the other. You can, like, you can be a questioner who tips to rebel or a questioner who tips to upholder. Like, Steve Jobs was a questioner who tipped to rebel. My husband is a questioner who tips to upholder. So it kind of flavors your tendency, even though you're still in that core tendency.
I see. Well, I'd be curious to see if people take the quiz, let us know in the comments below what you are and if it was surprising or not. I think sometimes people know, like you and I, we're pretty self-aware. We're like, "Yeah, I get it. That's how I am." But for other people, sometimes it's surprising when they look at it and they're like, "Oh, I didn't— I guess that's true about me." Yeah.
I think the biggest insight is from obligers who often are very discouraged and don't understand why it is that they're not— they're like, "Why do I keep my promises to everyone else?" I break my promises to myself. And they have all kinds of theories about why that is, usually that are not, that are not very positive. And I'm like, no, this is like a big number of people feel this way. What they need is outer accountability. It's just, it's like, it's not either good or bad. It's just something to work with.
It is.
But one of the things about obligers, and if we've got obligers, um, weigh in in the comments because we can all learn from each other, is like what they use for outer accountability because they are so imaginative and ingenious in coming up with outer accountability. Because sure, it's one thing to have a work deadline, but sometimes you're in situations where it's, it's not so easy to figure out how to create outer accountability. So if there are any obligers who like are like excited about a cool form of accountability they've created, put it in the comments because that's something that everybody can really learn from.
For sure. And if you have questions as we're going through, Gretchen and I are going to answer those at the end. So make sure you stick those in there so we can check those out. Talking about habits and how to create them, how to maybe change them. Are there signs that we should look out for if a, if a habit is no longer really serving us? What should we look for?
Well, sometimes that's easy to spot because you can tell that a habit is starting to crowd out activities that are, that, you know, in the end make you happier, more energetic. So like my sister was, went through a serious, like a very, very stressful period at work. And she's like, oh, now I'm in zombie mode and I just like sit on the sit on my bed and play two dots all day, you know, because— and that's not serving her well. Like, she's like, that's okay to do that for a day or two, but like, I need to like go for a hike with a friend and read a book and, you know, clean up my office and do all the things that in the end would be more restorative. So sometimes you can tell that something's like not a good use of your time, energy, and money, and it's time to rethink what that could look like. But then I think what's harder is when you're not sure, and Paula, you mentioned that you love meditation. Well, I have to confess, I've tried meditation twice. I mean, for months at a time, every single day, because as an Upholder, I find it easy to form that habit. And it just didn't do any— tell me in the comments if you've struggled with meditation and find that it's not a good tool for you. I find that it's just not a good tool for me.
How long did you do it for?
Like months?
But no, but each session?
10 minutes or Was either— I think one time I did it 10 minutes and one time I did it 5 minutes. So I didn't do it for like 20 minutes.
No, but that's— I was going to say you have to do it for less time, but you did it. I mean, that's what I do, 10 minutes. So I'm not like crazy doing it an hour a day or something, you know.
But well, I mean, to your point earlier, like every tool doesn't fit every hand. And I don't think there is a universal notebook and that there's like, you know, and people say to me like, oh, the fact that it didn't work for you means that you need to do it all the more. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, at a certain point, I mean, this is your question. At a certain point, I was just like, I don't feel like this is working for me. I don't feel like it's moving in a direction that suggests that at some point I'm going to reach some kind of breakthrough. Maybe I would, but maybe I would rather use that time and energy towards something that I know would make me happier. Because like, there are things where I'm like, I would like to spend more time reading, or I would like— one of the things I do right now, um, because I'm working on a book about the five senses, is I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day that it's open. That's great, I love doing that. Yeah, it takes time, so I'm like, well, okay, I got some time I can reclaim. It's only 10 minutes, but it's something, right? Um, but I do feel like sometimes when you feel like, well, this should be working but it's not working, or sometimes night people try to turn themselves into morning people and they spend a lot of energy trying to like reset their clock. Look, sometimes you can do that But like 30% of people are owls. They are at their most productive, energetic, and creative later in the day. Yes. And that's biology and a question of age as well, often. And like, oh, answer in the comments. Are you a lark, a morning person, a night person, or are you kind of in between? Because 30% are owl— are night people. 40% are morning people like me. And then everybody else is kind of in between. But you can spend a lot of energy trying to turn a night person into a morning person. And this is something that like parents try to do to children. For sure. And you know, their, their biology, their age is as they get, you know, as they get to be like teenagers, young adults, it's, it's, it's really making it hard for them.
Yeah, it makes everybody cranky. You know, I always say that too, because people are like, oh, I should be a morning person because I read, you know, that morning people, it's the best way. It's the best thing and I should be doing this and I should be doing it. And it's like, that is not true. If it's not your personality type, if it's not your, you know, your, your your chronotype, and you're most, you know, you're not feeling so fired up at that time, why are you trying to do that? Like, I am not a morning person. And for years when I worked in corporate America, you know how it is, you got to get up, you got to go, you got to be there, and all of that. But I would notice in the afternoons around 3, 4 o'clock is when I would start to be my most creative. See, that's when I would write my scripts. That's when I would start, you know, and I thought at first, I thought it was because it was getting close to 5 o'clock. So I wanted to like finish my work and leave. It's not. Now that I work for myself as an entrepreneur, I find it the same. I get going a lot later in the day and I've now embraced that instead of trying to change it.
Yes. Well, and you can see how in a workplace, whether it's virtual or in real life, how you could take this into account because you could have a team and you're like, hey, just raise your hands. What, who are we dealing with? Because if, if 4 out of 5 people are night people, why are you having an 8:15 brainstorm? Brainstorming session. When you could just as easily make it at 11:15 or 2:15, right? Um, because a lot of times what people— that works for them, they assume works for everybody. And so they're like, look, everybody— and I used to make this mistake all the time myself— do it first thing in the morning when you're fresh. Like, if it's a challenge, like, do that first thing, get it done. And like, but it's like, but a lot of people, that's not when they're at their most fresh. It's not when they're most energetic and creative. And so sometimes we can't accommodate. Sometimes we can't shift things around, but sometimes we can. And so you want to think about, well, if I could do it later, could I do it later? I, I was just talking to somebody the other day about exercise, and she said, oh my gosh, I thought like the best way to exercise was like first thing in the morning, and now you're telling me I could go in the afternoon? And I'm like, yes, you can go anytime you want. You can go anytime. That's the best kind of exercise, is the kind of exercise you do.
Yeah.
And if you're going to go at 3, like that for me, I'm trying to develop— I'm experimenting with a habit of napping. Anybody who's a napper, please tell me if you have a good experience. But there's so much research that suggests that napping is really good. And I'm like, oh my God, on a day where I can take my nap— because you get going at 3, but I have a slump at 3. That's hard for me. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it is interesting though, too, because this is a habit when we talk about meetings. We talk about work. Workplace things, right? It's like they have a meeting at 8:30 in the morning because it has always been that way.
Exactly. Now is the time. Let's rethink it.
Exactly. Now is the time before you go back into the office to say, hey, does that work for our team? If we have people who are not in the office physically and who are remote, will that work for them? If there are people on different, you know, time zones, how does that work? This is the time to start thinking about that and doing that. We're getting a lot of comments in the, in the chat boxes, which is great. So if you have questions, we're going to come to those in just a second. I want to ask you a little bit about the habits that people should be including in their future of work, right? So if we're talking about hybrid work setups, so, you know, I love a good to-do list. My habit has always been, even when I worked for someone else, now that I work for myself, the last thing I do every day before I leave my desk I make a list for the following day of everything I have the time and the resources to do the next day. And that way I come in and there's the list. I have my intention. I know what it is that I wanted to get done. I mean, that comes from being a TV producer too and having like a rundown for the day and what's next, what's next, what's next. That works really, really well for me. But are there other habits that people can take into this new work world with them that will best serve them?
Well, as you say, it's hard. It's some— in some ways it's hard to make generalities. Sure. You like a to-do list. One thing I found is some people like a ta-da list. Yeah, they make a list of everything they've already done and they get very energized by that. And they're like, wow, I've done a lot. And that kind of gets them going. Some people like a could-do list. Rebels like a could-do list. I could do that if I feel like it, right? Um, it's not to-do, it's could-do. Um, but one thing, I mean, if you're gonna just say what's true for everybody, one thing I would say is think about your body. Your physical experience is always going to color your emotional experience and your intellectual experience. And so you want to think about like what puts you in the right frame of mind and through your body. So that means getting enough sleep. You want to take into account your chronotype, but you also want to think about the fact that most people need at least 7 hours of sleep. So whatever your time you wake up, the time you go to bed, sometimes people find it helpful to set an alarm to remind them to go to bed just as they have an alarm in the morning.
Interesting. Yeah, that can get you like out of your, your social media or your Netflix.
I think some people as adults, they think, well, I'll just go to bed whenever I'm tired, but then we jack ourselves up by checking our work email or watching a great television show. Like, I recently binge-watched Mad Men. I had missed it the first time, and I was like, I can stay up till midnight now because I was so wide awake. We usually go to bed at 10:15, you know, but I was like, this is great, I have all this extra time. Did I really have extra time? No, no, right. I was just missing sleep because I still woke up at the same time. Sure. And so that wasn't really very sustainable. Another thing to think about is exercise. There is just so much research and there's more research all the time showing that if you care about your immune function, if you care about your memory, if you care about your, your analytical skills, your attention, your sense of humor, your sense of perspective, so much of this is boosted by exercise. It kind of— it's magical because it like calms you down and boosts you up. And so especially if you go out in early morning light, this is— this will reset the circadian rhythm. It will help you— like, helps the body in all kinds of sort of mysterious ways that they're just starting to understand. Even something like a 20-minute walk in the morning. The people who go from being totally sedentary to even just like slightly less sedentary get a huge boost in health. And it really does. Help you stay alert and learning. And so you want to think about how can you get some exercise, even if it's, you know, modest. And another thing to think about— and I know, I know, I know you're, you're, you're, you're in agreement with me here, Paula Rizzo. But like for many people, not everybody, for many people, outer order contributes to inner calm. And especially if you're sort of like going back, you know, kind of trying to give yourself that sense of a fresh start, you know, taking the time to like clear up your desk, clean out your files, like get everything organized, bring down the visual noise around you. Now some people are abundance lovers and they like profusion and buzz and a lot going on, but great if that's what you like, you can have that in your environment to the extent that you can create it. But even you don't want like papers that need to be filed and a dirty coffee cup. And like, I don't know about you, but like during the course of the day, I just I have pens.
You accumulate. Yes.
Pens all over.
Yeah.
And I'm like, if I just take 2 seconds and put them in the pen cup, I feel better.
And it really does only take a few seconds. It's the things that we procrastinate and we're like, oh, I should do that. I should do that. I do like a whole breakdown of my like office setup at the end of the day so that the next morning I come in, it looks nice. It looks like, okay, I can sit. Because there have been studies done that if women specifically have been around clutter, you know, their stress hormones go up. So I know that about myself. I'm like, oh, I can't concentrate on what I'm supposed to be doing because I just want to clean something. You know, I just want to put this away and not have it in my face.
Okay. But here's the other thing. And this comes up especially in the open office. There are some people, and say it in the comments if this is you, some people are truly clutter blind. They don't see it. It does not bother them.
Good point.
Like my sister, she's the co-host of my podcast Happier. She's truly clutter blind, like, and on balance, she'd like things to be like orderly because why not? But it doesn't bother her. She doesn't really care. Every time I go over to her house, she lives in LA. I love to clean it up because I get immense pleasure from it, but she doesn't really care. She lets me do it because I enjoy it. She doesn't really care. So if you're dealing with somebody who you're like, how can you live like this? How can you keep your desk like this? Doesn't this make you bonkers? And they say, no, I don't care. It's like, listen to them. Yeah, they don't care. Now, it may be bothering you. And if it's a shared space, and you have to say like, well, let's create an environment where we both feel comfortable because I, Paula Rizzo, am just extremely distracted by all this the time. Well, that's something we need to work out. But for me to say to you, oh, look, a cluttered desk means a cluttered mind, you need to get this cleaned up. It's like, maybe not, right? Preference.
It could be, it feeds people to have inspiration around them and to be able to see, you know, different—
yeah, some people are like, yeah, and unexpected juxtapositions. But so, so I think, um, but for many people, I will say, I think for most people they do. A friend of mine said, um, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch careers. I know how that feels, you know, like there is this, and there is a sort of sense of like, I'm getting down to business, I'm clearing off everything that could distract me from my core, my core task.
Sure.
It's kind of part of the, the, um, working yourself up But like you say, you clean up every night. I do a 10-minute closer where I clean everything up, but I also do something that's very useful. And this is useful if you're at the office or at home, maybe even more at home, is the 1-minute rule. Anything you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. If you can hang up a coat on a hook instead of throwing it over a chair, if you can take, you know, some document and put it in file instead of leaving it on your desk, if you can, you know, take your dirty coffee mug and take it into the kitchen. And these are things that, you know, you don't have to set aside special time for it. And even a very person— very busy person could just do it through just as they're going through their day. Sure. Then at the end of the day, you don't see all that— like, you're not just surrounded by all those little tasks that just make us feel weighed down. Like, you're like, oh my gosh, I can't even fight my way to my desk chair. Yeah, yeah. So much junk around, you know. But if you do it a minute at a time, I have to say, of all the things that I've ever talked about people about. This is one of the ones that people say to me, like, as small as it is, this is something that was really differentiating for them.
Yeah, because it is easy.
It's easy.
You can do a minute. It's 60 seconds. I mean, you really can make time for a minute. And I love the idea of having rules. I love, I love a good rule.
Well, you're an upholder. Yeah.
So I love it. I'm like, ooh, rules. Awesome. But it also helps with boundaries. I want to talk a little bit about boundary setting because, you know, as people are going back into the office, they may have had, you know, a free rein to show up whenever they want because they were working, you know, remotely. But now they're in office and people are going to want to talk to you. People are going to come to your desk. People, you know, it's a different, it's a different game. So, you know, I do have a whole course on LinkedIn Learning all about how to set boundaries and how to protect your time. But it is difficult. It's difficult to say no to people. It's difficult to have these rules and be, you know, I like to be rigid. Not everybody is super rigid about things, but how can you carve out some time for yourself, like create that boundary now that people are going back to the office?
Well, I will observe that typically when people are talking about having trouble with boundaries, it's an Obliger. Obligers struggle with this far more than the other 3 tendencies, because Upholders will meet their inner expectations. I'm sorry, I can't stay, stay late and work because I have my yoga class. So sorry. Questioners are like, why would I do that? You know, and Rebels are like, yeah, I don't feel like doing that. You know, like, that's That's not what I feel.
Very cut and dry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, of course, sometimes they have trouble with boundaries in some workplaces or some situations will— boundaries become an issue for everyone. I'm just saying, for the most part, or very typically, typically when people talk about boundaries, it's often with an obliger because they feel that pressure. Like someone comes— I mean, there's kind of a coldness to upholders and somebody comes and chats with me when I'm trying to work. I'd be like, hey, hey, man, like back off. I got to work now. Like, don't distract me. That wouldn't really bother me. I would try to say it in a lighthearted and polite way. But to an obliger, they might really, like, sometimes they feel more pressure to, like, you know, in that kind of situation. So one thing, and so I'll specifically speak to things that work with obligers because they work for other people as well. One thing you can do as an obliger is you can say, if I say yes to you, I have to say no to someone else. Because often it's like, you might want to say yes in the moment, but you have to think about the fact that you're saying no to someone else. So let's say You and your family talked about, hey, when I go back to the office, I'm going to be home every night at 6:30. Like, that's, that's my boundary. But then the people at the office are like, let's stay late and finish this up. Okay. Think about the fact that you're saying no to someone, right? Because your family asked you to come home. So you're not in a situation where you can just say yes. You can say yes to somebody, but no to someone else. And that's where your values come into play. Who do you choose to say yes to? Another way that some obligers find it easy to develop boundaries is to think, if I say no, I give someone else an opportunity. They want me to go present at this conference. I've already presented at many conferences. If I don't go, I'll say no so my younger colleague gets an opportunity to shine. I'll say no so someone else gets a chance.
That is a nice way to look at it, you know, without the scare. You know, people are— think sometimes in scarcity, like, if I don't take it, I won't get anything else. And this is a very abundant way of looking at it, right? There will be more. I will do something else. And this is a nice way for someone else to get their start or to try it out or whatever it is. I like that. That's a mindset switch.
And I would also say obligers often feel exploited by, by the other tendencies. And they are 100% correct. Who does an upholder, questioner, rebel go to when they need someone to go the extra mile? They go to the obliger because the obligers are those people. They are those great colleagues, those great leaders, those great team members. And it is on all of us to be fair. To be just and to not take advantage of someone's willingness to pitch in. So if you are looking around as a manager or as a team member and you're like, hey, someone's on 3 committees and someone's on 8 committees, I'm not going to the person on 8 committees, even if they're like, okay, I'll do it. If you really need me, I'll do it. No, that's not fair. If you see someone's not taking vacation time, you'd say, hey, I need you to take vacation time. You're too important to me. I don't want you to burn out. Let's talk about when you're going to go on vacation. Sometimes obligers watch out for each other. Like, they're like, maybe I wouldn't feel comfortable, like, marching in and saying, like, do you know what's going on? Do you know who's taking all the night shifts? Do you know who's doing all the unpleasant travel? But they might do it for someone else, you know. And sometimes what obligers also do is they will, like, phone a friend, and they'll be like, you know, somebody will ask them to do something, they'll be like, oh, I just need to check my calendar, you know, stall. Yes, go back, think about what is my boundary, what do I want to do, what's really right for me here and in this situation. And if I need to call someone and say, like, Do you think I should do it? And I, you know, you always have like a coworker or a family member who's kind of up to speed and they'd be like, well, would you, why would you do it for this reason? This reason, this reason, like, does this make sense to you? And kind of help talk you through, like, you know what, this is really, this is really something that I'm going to pass up.
Yeah.
Or I'm going to say, you know, this is too much, or this isn't the right thing, the right way for me to go. So there's a lot of ways that you can find ways to support those boundaries. But I think it really does help to understand, you know, how to think about them, perhaps.
Yeah, it's true. It is a mindset switch. And once you start doing it, it becomes easier. At first, it's difficult. You know, you want to be a people pleaser, you want to help people, you want to make sure that you're, you know, I will say another shout out to meditation. Meditation has actually helped me with boundaries because you're taught in meditation to pause. Before you jump in, right? So that you—
Yes. And that helps with everything.
Yes. You hear something or you have a thought and it's like, oh, I'm just going to notice the thought. I'm not going to jump on it and start then thinking more thoughts or whatever. But it helps with boundaries too. Because like you said, let me check my calendar.
Yes.
Pause.
Yes.
Check in with yourself. Say, hey, is this something that I can actually do? Is this something that I want to do? That's another thing too. Sometimes we say yes to things that it's like, This wasn't even anything I wanted to do. So doing a gut check with yourself, like, how do I feel in that moment? Uh, you know, a lot of people will think, oh, this is an extracurricular thing, but I'm not getting paid for it, but I love it, so I'm gonna— it's a definite yes.
Yeah.
Versus, you know, ah, it's a little bit draining and I don't feel great after I do these types of things, so I'm gonna say no, you know. But to check in with yourself and to pause— like, the power of the pause in this situation I find to be really, really helpful. But it takes work.
Yes, it does. In essence of Elijah, you might even like, like make a pact with a friend, like, okay, like I'm gonna text you and you're gonna text me, like, I did it, I did it, you know, so that you get the sense of reinforcement in the sense that somebody's kind of looking over their shoulder. Yeah, everybody says that's a great thing about meditation, and it's— and with just about everything difficult in life, if you can pause, if you can count to 10.
Yeah.
And not act impulsively, it's so much better. Um, so yes, I mean, I mean, I think that that's anything. But, but for people who are not in that place, saying, I need to check my calendar, I need to check my priorities, I need to see, like, I need to balance out a couple of things, I need to make a call, anything that gives you kind of— because then I think you can like check in with yourself exactly as you say and think about, does this serve me and my values in the long term? I feel like this impulse to say yes in the moment Let me give myself a little bit of a barrier so I can muster up the answer that I really want to.
Totally. And also learn from it. So if you say no, then look at it and be like, okay, what did I put on my calendar for that time slot instead? Was that something worthwhile? For instance, I remember there was a colleague years ago who got married and you know how it is when you work in an office, everybody gets invited to the wedding and everybody goes and the whole thing. And I was like, I don't think it's going to matter if I'm there or not and I don't want to go. And so I was quick, decisive, and I said, "I'm so sorry, I have other plans that day. I won't be able to make it." Period, the end. Didn't give a discussion of whatever.
Didn't go.
Everyone else went. I went to a Broadway show with my mother and I had a great time. And it was, for me, it was a much better use of my time. And I just felt like, that is why I do this, you know? That is why I put those boundaries and that you say no to certain things so that you can do the things you really love. But having that example, in my mind has been so helpful again and again when things do pop up and you sort of, you know, you forget and you go back into your old ways, really.
Yeah, no, it is. And to kind of know what, you know, a lot of times you can kind of anticipate what the issues are like, oh, I think they're going to come knocking on my door to lead up that committee again or whatever. So you might think about it in advance and be like, you know, I've done that enough. That's not, that's not a new challenge for me. They need to find somebody else to take on that role.
For sure. Definitely. Yes. And we're getting a lot of love in the chat. So if you have questions for Gretchen, please leave them in there. We can check those out. Pablo is saying, look for A Way to Be the Essentialist. It has tons of jewels on your own time and space and healthy matter. Yes.
That's the Greg McKeown book.
Yeah.
That's great. And he has a new book called Effortless as well.
Yes. Effortless.
If you're a fan of his work.
Yeah. I love his stuff too. I definitely do. And we have a question from Amanda. Let me see what that one is. It is for— it is, do you have a way of thinking about or approaching mental habits versus habits that are behaviors?
That is such a great question. That's a very insightful question. I do not think about mental habits like, am I optimistic or pessimistic? Because I think it's just very hard to get into your head and to direct your thoughts. What research shows, and certainly what I find in my own experience, is that it's much easier to, to, to manage our, our, our external habits than our internal habits. But by, by managing our external habits, we often will influence our internal state of mind. And so to me, I'm like, I can't like make myself like more positive and optimistic very easily, but I can get enough sleep, I can get some exercise, I can make time for friends, I can make time for reading, and that will have the, you know, that will make me feel more, you know, more positive, more energetic. Um, so I always do go at— go to it for the outside in because I feel like that's so much easier to manage, um, and to influence. Yeah, it's very easy to manage what we're doing, you know, out on the exterior. Yeah, it's not easy, but I would say it's straightforward. Um, and it's easy to tell what you're doing, whereas mental habits are, are, are much I'm curious about, I know your next book is about the senses. Yeah.
And so I love that. And I'm thinking it could be helpful to talk about senses a little bit as people are going back to the office or doing this hybrid work and maybe their desk is not their desk anymore, right? There's this thing called hoteling where you're just basically hanging out at a desk for a day and then you're sitting somewhere else. And are there things that we can do to help ourselves when it comes to being in a different different office, different setup when it comes to senses.
Well, it's very interesting. Annie Murphy Paul just wrote a fascinating book called The Extended Mind. And one of the things she talks about is like a lot of the challenge that people are going to face when they're hoteling, because there's all this research showing that, and if you could see my desk, you would see how I've done it here, that people kind of put their brains out around them and they put things on the bulletin board and they put things there and they have papers lined up. And this is how they, are helping their brains enlarge. And do you know, when you create this kind of space for yourself and you can put your hands on everything and it's kind of all around you, and then if you're packing everything up every day and then you're in a new place every day, you don't have the opportunity to do that. So that's kind of cramps your brain because you can't use your surroundings as cues and as, you know, to aid your memory and things like that. So as you're going, as you're thinking about that, you might want to think like, well, do I want to have a little setup that I do every day where so I can— I feel like I have all the tools of my trade, whatever that might be, right at hand, and I feel like I'm sort of establishing my space. And so even if I'm in a different place every— now I'm near the window, now I'm near the door, um, I see these 10 things, or, you know, these like 5 to 10 things around me. Here's my pad of paper, here's my favorite mug, here's my favorite pen, here's my scratch pad, here's my headphones, here's my charger kind of all around us, that might help you feel like, okay, I'm in my place, right? Even if you have— and maybe you have like even something like a picture of your family or something like that to make it feel like it's yours. Um, if you have to recreate that space, um, again and again, um, because I think it will be challenging for people. I mean, we all— you, you know this when you're in school, like even if you don't have assigned seatings, almost everybody goes to the same seat day after day. Somebody was just telling me at their office, they, um, everybody was away, they completely cleaned it out, they did this, they like, everybody had to take everything out because they were doing this renovation. They put all the desks back, came back, and everybody went back to the exact same desk.
Oh, that's—
even though nothing was there, it was 100% bare. And like, I could have gone in and nabbed the one by the window, right? Yeah, because now, no, it doesn't belong to anybody. Everybody went back to their— oh, that's so interesting— totally blank desk.
Creatures of habit, you know, creatures of habit.
But we want to have that feeling of being at home.
Yes, totally. And I do love—
you want to be— you want to have your space.
Yes, I love that idea of sort of having that ritual, right? Like that, that morning ritual of like, hey, I'm going to set myself up. This is what I like to see.
This is what I want to be inspired by.
This is what I need. And you do this, you know, working in the news business for close to 20 years, hoteling is not new in, in the news business, uh, because there are so many or hot desking, whatever you want to call it, because, you know, there are so many employees, there are so many shows in live TV, there's not enough desks for everyone who works at the station. So it is very much, we would share a lot of space. You would have a locker and you would put your stuff in a locker and then you would set yourself up for the day and come in early and, you know, make sure that your desk was cleaned off, right? Even back then I was like crazy with the, with the antibacterial wipes because people are using your stuff, you know? Yeah. But You know, so for me, it's a little bit easier to think about, but not everyone. You know, a lot of people, that your desk is your desk, and/or that office has been your office for a very long time, and it's hard to, you know, think about giving up that. It's a comfort sometimes for people, you know.
Well, and just back to your point that you made a while back about sort of setting an intention or being mindful about it. I mean, you might start thinking like, well, where do I feel more comfortable? And Maybe you want to start paying attention to things like, okay, this person's pretty chatty.
Yeah.
And if I, if I plunk down next to them, it's going to be sort of a distraction. Like, try to be noticing what— or you're like, oh, you know, the light is a glare if I sit this way. Most of us are aware of that. But like, maybe there's the noise from the kitchen, or maybe you like that. Maybe you like— some people like a little bustle. Some people like to be in the, like, right in the line of traffic. Like, they like to be in the swing. So pay attention. Where do you feel the best? What is the best surroundings for you? And try to set yourself up. And again, you want to do this as soon as possible because people will start to claim even— oh, for sure— even an area, and you'll start to feel like, oh, that's someone else's turf. Um, so you want to kind of be very, um, attentive, yeah, to the kinds of things that make you, um, more or less productive and, you know, more or less comfortable in a space.
But now, now is the time.
Right away.
Now is the time to start before, you know, even before, like we talked about pre-planning the beginning of this, but now is the time. Start noticing yourself. Start, you know, do I need noise? Do I need complete silence? Like, what is it that you need? Write it down, remember it, try and recreate that as much as you possibly can because it's not always possible.
And it's going to be fascinating to see how workplaces try to adjust like this. Like, I'm like, is it going to be like the quiet car? Yeah, on the train where like these are the— I know, don't chat. And then here are the people that are the chat chatty ones and like they can all chat amongst themselves or I mean, we all have the thing where, oh, you go in the telephone booth if you're going to make the important telephone call. Then I'm like, okay, well, it's going to be really, really interesting to create out of here.
Yeah, I love that. I love it. And I'm curious actually about your writing habits as a final thought here, because as you know, I've written two books about productivity and I'm working actually on a third book now that's fiction, which is very fun and very different. Very different, totally different. And I find it freeing and just like I'm having fun with it. But the way that I started it was on Fridays, I would write my second book, Listful Living. That was the time that I had set aside every Friday to write. And then once the book was done and out and now it's in the world, I was like, "I loved having that time. I'm going to continue doing that." And I do have a writing accountability buddy. We meet on Zoom. She shows up, she's writing something completely different than me. We check in, we say, hello, how's it going? All right, we'll write for 25 minutes, we'll check in with each other, we'll write for another 25 minutes. That for me has— having that habit every Friday and knowing that she's going to be there really helps me to continue to do it. You know, I have about 76,000 words now, so I'm pretty, pretty excited about that. But what about for you? What is it that you need to continue to put out all of these great books?
You know, from, for me, it really comes from reading and from talking to other people. That's really how I get my ideas. So my process is very much like I read just like all sorts of strange stuff. I take extensive notes. I, I start to, and I keep these gigantic documents of notes. And then at a certain point, I start to feel like there's a big subject that I want to tackle. And then I pull out the notes related to that subject. And then I start organizing them, and then I start seeing what I'm, what I'm trying to get at. And the only way I can really think is through writing. And so I kind of back into it that way.
I love that.
You kind of like, if I look at my, if I look at my old books that I've written, I see now that the five senses was like a theme running under, underground that even I didn't perceive. Yeah, but I've actually been thinking about it for a long time. But so now I'm going back and like pulling that out and going deep into it. But for me, it really is this note-taking. That is kind of the creative transformation that like spurs my thinking, gets me curious, makes me want to go forward.
Oh, um, yeah, I like that because I think a lot of times people, you know, who want to be authors, who want to write books, think, oh, I have to have the idea formed in my mind right away. And, and this is more of like, it's, it's an exploratory process, and also it reveals itself when you see it. You're like, oh, that's it, that's what I want to go with.
Yes. But then I have also had the experience where like something hit me. Like I remember my first— I wrote a novel. Like I've written 3 terrible novels that are like locked in a desk drawer. But the first time, it was like I was walking down the street. I remember exactly where I was. And I thought apocalypse. And that was like my first novel. But then I was in a crowded crosstown bus on like 79th and Madison, if anybody knows New York City.. And I looked out the window and I thought, what's most important to me? I thought, well, I want to be happy, but I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I was happy or how to be happier. And I thought, well, you know, I should have a happiness project. I was like, yes, happiness project. I need to do a happiness project. So that kind of, but then to write the book, I was just, I just went to the library, got a giant stack of books and I was reading ancient philosophy and contemporary science and memoirs, anything I could get my hands on, taking notes, taking notes. And then from there I'm like, what's my structure? Which is very, very hard to figure out. But yeah, I got, I got from the idea into the notes to the final, to the final product.
Very interesting. Very interesting. I find you fascinating, Gretchen. I'm so glad that we were able to reconnect. Thank you so much for being here and for all of your thoughts on the future of work and habits and all that. And I hope that people check out your podcast. Course, if you go to happiercast.com, right? Happier with Gretchen Rubin. And also your LinkedIn Learning courses that you have here on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning, if you go check that out on habits. And for those of you who are here, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for leaving your questions. Thank you for those who are watching the replay, all of that. And we hope that you have found this session to be very valuable and that you feel prepared to cultivate these habits to best serve you as you go off into the world.
