Alex Pellew, Co-Founder @ UNTIL

Welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Alex. Alex, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

So you are the founder of Until. A good place to start is, what is Until and, and why does it exist?

So Until, effectively, we're a growth platform for independent health and wellness practitioners. So So we provide them with physical infrastructure and digital infrastructure to start their own thriving business, right? And so what that looks like is 3 super premium central London clubs, digital support tools to help you, you know, run and manage your business. But I think what's quite unique about what we're doing is we're combining the best of healthcare and wellness under one roof. So our clubs combine medical, dental, gym facilities, treatment rooms, and what that means is we can bring together all of these practitioners from really different professions and have them collaborate and work together, um, and, and provide them with best-in-class infrastructure to run their business. And I think that's why we're doing really well, is like that community aspect, which is— I mean, it's that time-old freelancer problem, right? Which is, um, you know, it's a lonely road. You know, you want to— and I think what's great about your— what you're doing is maybe this is going to inspire people to take the leap and do their own thing. But starting a business, your own business, can be lonely in the early stages. And we're trying to give these guys just a much better way of doing it. It's a better infrastructure, community, and support.

I was reading your book last night. It's excellent, by the way. But I think something that really stuck out to me was you spoke a lot about solving real problems for real people. And I wonder how that fed into Untill and what you're solving.

A lot, actually. And I'd have to credit another company called What If, where my co-founder and I worked before, which is an innovation consultancy. We'll talk about that. But I guess to, to answer your previous question as well about, you know, why did we start this business, I think we had a hunch that health and wellness practitioners are the people that make the world go round. They're life changers, life savers, right? I mean, it's, it's pretty obvious hunch. Um, but we felt like actually, if you want to go and do good in the world, how about you pick an audience which is going to exponentially change lives? And that is those guys, right? But also, at the same time, we saw a problem that needed solving, which was traditionally it's a fragmented market, right? And so a of these guys work for small providers. There's some bigger brands obviously in fitness, like, you know, your Third Space and whatever. But actually there's not a lot of choice for them. And so they get stuck in this kind of like trap where they develop and develop their skills, but they're working for someone else. And the industry really isn't— doesn't have the structures to allow them to really spread their wings and fly. And for many of them, the best leap is then starting their own business. But before we came along, that's pretty hard to do, right? You have to think about physical infrastructure. So taking a lease on a space, operations, sales, marketing. And actually on our platform they can get support with all of that and reduce all of their risks, right? I mean, they pay a monthly rolling membership fee and buy space flexibly as they need it. And so that's the bit that I'm and my team are really excited about is by setting those guys free and helping them do what they do better. I mean, our mission is we look after the people that look after you, right? If we look after them better, they will go and change and save lives better.

And the result for the consumer then, I was telling you before this episode that my, my back has just suddenly got very bad from playing a game of football, which I don't normally play. And I find it really debilitating because exercise is incredibly important to me, you know, just for mental well-being. And I've not been able to do it for the last week. And, and I think everybody thinks about going to the gym as, you know, somewhere you lift weights, you exercise, you run. But I think the combination of a place where you can do that but then have everything to allow you to do that like the longevity of it.

That's absolutely— and I mean, I think there are two big benefits for consumers. The first is, and this is true for health and wellness practitioners or even a tradesman coming to fix your house, if that person is happy in a really good space, ready to do a brilliant job because they're not worried about money, they're refreshed, their well-being is on point, they're going to do a better job than someone that's stressed and worried. And so just actually even at that baseline level, having someone who's ready to do a brilliant job and can do it 20-30% better because they've also got the tools they need. So that's one thing. So we hope people get better outcomes when you have a practitioner who's got great facilities and is in a great mental space as well, and their well-being is on point. But the second bit is, is what you're alluding to, which is, you know, as a consumer, you can access all of these services. We have a, we have a product called Health Concierge, which does literally what you're talking about. It takes the hassle out of finding the right practitioner for you because it is a minefield. And you, I don't know how often you've seen a physio, right? But I remember when I was at Nike and, and, uh, leading, running, and I hurt my knee. And Nike had all these physios I could talk to. I must have seen 6 before one finally fixed my knee. Right. And that was me not being able to run for 3 or 4 months. It's a lot of time, money invested in it. Actually, that fit between practitioner and consumer is really important. And as we have 600+ of UK's best health and wellness practitioners, we're in a much better place to give you the right practitioner for what you need versus we've got 4 physios, pick one of these. Right. And so definitely better consumer health outcomes. And it's why we think this is the future model. For the industry.

And before we get more into Antil and the whole journey there, I want to go back to the beginning of your own career.

Yeah.

Studying history at University of Nottingham.

Yeah.

What did you think your career might pan out to be back then?

I didn't know. I was one of these kids who kept on hoping that the answer would reveal itself. You know, I was, I guess, in the past, a little bit jealous of kids who knew what they wanted to do, right? You know, I want to be a doctor or whatever. In hindsight, as I've grown older, probably retrospectively looking back, probably not jealous actually, 'cause I think quite a lot of those kids were either not coerced, but kind of quite heavily led down those routes by their parents. Let's say if they were doctors or like work in finance because that's what my dad did and there's money in it. And I think actually not knowing what you want to do is a superpower, right? If you use it correctly, because it allows you to stay much more aware of about what it is that you love doing and are good at. And I think actually specializing super quickly early on, you might get lucky, right? You might go, actually, that's the right thing for me, and it might be right. But I think the reason you see a lot of people unfulfilled in their careers is because they pick the wrong thing early on, they stay in it. And I guess, look, I mean, the reason I picked history, uh, is I, um, I love stories, uh, and I always did. It's kind of like the medium through which I, I learned as a kid. And, and I if I was going to do 3 years at university, I was going to do something that I enjoyed. And so, I mean, I actually did ancient history because I was fascinated in— I've always been interested in metaphysics, the origin of things, and history allowed me to explore that and to learn as well. But history also teaches you critical thinking, right? So it teaches you an invaluable skill about weighing up evidence and making an argument. And then, I mean, that's nearly transferable to every industry, right, you can think of. But so I did that at university, I enjoyed it, and then it was time to get a job towards the end of university. And I don't know if it's still a thing, but it was the milk round then, right? And so, and literally it was top law firms and banks, and that was it, would come around to university and everyone would go and look at that. Other than that, there wasn't a lot of career choice. I, um, ended up going into advertising because, really, because one of my housemates was going for an interview at an ad agency. And he came back and just, just started telling stories about how, um, how like fun and different it was, like the environment. And that kind of piqued my interest. And what I realized is that advertising— so above the line advertising, storytelling— they're just shorter stories. Like, here's a story and it gets you to— it gets— it drives behavior, right? So, you know, here's a story that will get you to buy a product. And, and actually the agency I ended up working for did the Labour Party's advertising, and that fascinated me, right? You can distill down a little piece of comms, effectively a small story, and get someone to do something seismic like voting for a political party. So I decided to go into that. And also, look, I mean, I liked— I like going out. I liked, you know, having fun. And creative industries seemed like they were going to be fun places to work. I'd also done a summer work placement at a corporate recovery, like an accountancy firm doing corporate recovery. And it it really showed me what I didn't want to do, actually. And so just sitting like in these open-plan offices, and I'm not joking, at 5 PM they would all go out and get shitfaced. Like, honestly, like, it was embarrassing seeing grown men that drunk. And, you know, obviously I was getting involved as well, but I remember thinking like, why? Like, you know, what about a work environment means that you need to do this straight after work for for coming into the office to have some kind of meaning. And I think it's just because the work— and apologies to anyone who works in corporate recovery, and it's just my experience— I think the work is just not interesting enough, right? And so you have to fill the hole with something else. So I realized what I didn't want to do. And then my principle, I guess, was staying open and curious enough for long enough for the thing to reveal itself. And I don't think it really did actually until later in my career. So even past Nike. So I worked in advertising and marketing at Nike. It was a job after that, somewhere called What If. And so, yeah, I think you need to, you need to stay open enough, but that requires responsibility, right? Because you've also got to do the work about asking yourself, what is it that I'm good at? What do I find fulfilling? And trying stuff, right? So you've got to put yourself in environments where you can learn rapidly. Yeah.

To reference your, your book, and you talk about ideas being great, but then it's the actual execution of it becoming like a real tangible thing, is the momentum and how you can sort of latch on to that.

Yep.

Reapply that same thing to careers. When you're throwing a lot of things at the wall and see what sticks, it can be quite a manic depressive feeling. And actually knowing when something has clicked is like a skill in itself, right? So for you, you know, you found out what you didn't want to do.

What did it, what did it feel like?

How did you actually know this is what I want to do?

So we talked about this in the book. I mean, for those that don't know, the book Pete's referencing is The Idea in You: How to Find It, Build It, and Change Your Life. And effectively, it's a guide for how to start your own thing, not necessarily turn it into a huge corporation, but be able to turn your idea into a business effectively. And we talk about that. You know, one of the things we talk about in the book, I mean, it goes over 10 years old now, so it's hard to remember. But one of the things we talk about is in terms of finding your idea that's right for you is just noticing what you enjoy doing, right? And so I think all that you can do in your career is prioritize, uh, speed of learning over, over, like, money, right? And so I'll give you an example. I, um, the very first job I did actually, uh, was at the BBC. So it was the BBC's internal ad agency, um, and, you know, like, it wasn't as— I had an interview with a top ad agency called TBWA, which I ended up going to after the BBC, and they had, like, a job on the table for me. But the reason I picked the BBC was because you could do, like, 8 above-the-line ad campaigns in a year. You do, like, Wimbledon, I was doing FA up, um, whereas in a big agency you might do one or two. And so it allowed me to rapidly learn, like, in a year, is this for me, right? I'm gonna go, I'm gonna cover a lot of ground, I'm going to develop quickly. And I think early on in your, in your career, you've got to think about banking experience versus banking money, right? And so sometimes I think a big paycheck early on can be a bear trap, or chasing that is a fool's errand, right? Because you might, you might be earning a lot of money, but it is— you've got to think about it as a long game, right? You know, it's, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And so for me anyway, it was about prioritising speed of learning, exposure to different experiences and people, and then you're just noticing what I was good at. I mean, look, I'll give you an example, right? You enjoy doing a piece of work on any given project. You get a brilliant reaction from other people around that which rewards you and makes you feel great. I mean, it doesn't take a lot to notice these things, right? You don't enjoy doing the work. People like it. Well, one half is missing, right? You enjoy doing the work, but it's not having an impact in the world. You're probably not good at it, right? And so I think that, you know, it's it's not hard to stay aware of this stuff.

And I think one thing that people don't really appreciate the value of in this job market is the rise of startups and actually how viable that is to join straight out of university. And I know yourself, until you do take grads or sort of younger people in their career, what is it that you're looking for in them in terms of characteristics that actually demonstrated that they can thrive in that environment where they can try loads of different things and grow in the company?

Yeah, it's a really, it's a really good question. I, um, I mean, I definitely think startup is a, is a now much more viable career path. I mean, obviously pick your startup wisely, right? Um, what we look for, I mean, one of the first questions I always ask in an interview is, the first question I ask is, what have you done to prepare for this interview? Because what I want to see is like initiative and graft, right? And, you know, like work ethic, because I think Sometimes, like, at its worst, right, I guess some of the, you know, younger team that we've hired, some I think have an expectancy or an entitlement that the job is going to give them something. What we're looking for is the other side of that coin, of people who are going, I'm going to make the opportunity. Because look, it's a bit of a cliché, isn't it? You know, you start in the office doing the making the tea and the photocopying. But there is something about paying your dues and paying your dues also comes down to what I was talking about earlier, which is by doing that, you're really getting stuck in. And again, you're noticing about what do I like doing, what don't I? And actually doing that work, which might seem like the unsexy work to begin with, allows you to be a better manager if you get promoted because you know what it takes to do the job right. And so I think I'd say go into it ready to pay your dues. I mean, I wrote I wrote 100 letters when I knew I wanted to work in advertising. I wrote— and it was back in the day, right, 2002. So I wrote 100 letters. Might seem a bit arcane. They weren't sent by owl, I put them in the post. But I wrote 100 letters to ad agencies going, look, here's who I am, here's why you should give me an opportunity. Can I come and do some unpaid work experience?

And who are you?

Well, I was basically— yeah, I was saying, look, I'm someone who— I mean, God, really hard to remember back, back to 2002. But I think I was— what I was saying is like, look, I've got a passion for comms and creativity, and I'd give an example why. I think I mentioned about, you know, willing to get stuck in and work for free. I mean, it's probably not very ethical now. Before my job at the BBC, I did 6 months working for a tiny ad agency. Right. But, but it allowed— and they didn't pay me. Right. But it allowed me to— I worked on Virgin Media, so I was able to, to get like that on my CV. I was able to get client experience so I could go to an interview somewhere like the BBC and talk credibly about, about what I'd done. But it was, you know, it felt like paying your dues. It felt like earning your way. And again, if you think think about a career being a, a marathon, not a sprint, that kind of fits into it, you know. And I think often if you're looking at TikTok or whatever and you're seeing— you're comparing yourself to what other people might be doing now, I think that's a risk, right? Because actually what you should be comparing yourself to is what you're going to be doing in 10 years, 20 years, and what they're doing. What people are doing now isn't, isn't important. It's about finding something you love doing and something you're good at.

And what comes first then in doing that? Is it the buy-in to wanting to become good at even when you know you might not be, um, or is it the actual like refinement and they're just like trying things even— yeah, even if you just don't know what the end result is?

Yeah, I think it still comes back to that anchor of like passion and what you enjoy doing because it's got to sustain you, right? And if you don't, if you're not excited about— and going back to that, um, work experience in the accountancy firm, I just don't think they were excited by their work, which is why it led to that kind of like binge drinking at 5 o'clock kind of culture. But I think if you're passionate about something, you're curious about it. So you're naturally every day developing your knowledge. I mean, I used to read Campaign, the industry magazine, and I almost knew the names of like all the top creatives in every agency. Like, I knew I was just in the industry. I was really curious about it. And, you know, my industry now is health and wellness. And if someone wants to work in that industry and they're passionate about it, they'll be understanding the businesses, they'll be understanding the trends, right? Already that makes you better at your job if it's in that sector. And then I think it's It's about, like, I almost, you know, there's that saying, isn't there, that people leave managers, not jobs, right? And you would've probably heard it before on this podcast. I think, you know, another thing I'd say is look for mentors, right? Look for people who you go, like, fuck, you're like, wow, like, how do you do that? And I remember a few points in my career, I've been, you know, in a room and I've been going, well, that's incredible. Like how you thought about that, how you dealt with that situation. And you go, I wanna learn that. The best way to learn it is learn it from the person who you saw delivering it, right? And so I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world of work is full of opportunity, right, to A, learn about yourself and learn from incredible people. Um, but it comes back to one of the points I wanted to land in this, which is like network is really important. And I guess, you know, you think about, uh, is that whole kind of work from home, don't work from home debate, and I don't fall on either side of that. I can see the merits of both, and this isn't a you have— people have to work from the office message. It's a, you've got to think about your network. It's so important, A, to help you learn and develop, B, if you ever want to start your own idea. And we write about this in the book. You've probably already met your co-founder by the time you're ready to make an idea. That person will come from your network. Very hard to foster those connections if you're not, if you're not out there chatting to people, spending time with them, going for a lunch, right? I take you for lunch. We'll spend probably half of it talking about work, half of it talking about our lives, right? It doesn't happen on a Teams call. And so I'd go like, really think about network as your path to development and your path to freedom if you want to build an idea and invest in it.

Well, let's try and demystify what that actually looks in practice. Um, I think as a student you do hear the importance of network, you get a mentor quite a lot, but I think then actually going about doing that in the first place, um, becomes very difficult, right? I think even when it comes, comes down to how much can you ask of them? What do you have to give them first? How can you like stand out in building that relationship? Have you got any advice on that?

I guess what I'm suggesting is much more practical versus like— I get it if it's like, look, go out and cold, cold message someone. What I'm saying is as you go on that journey of building your career, you're going to come across people and they'll be your managers, your boss, right? Uh, the people who, you know, like in every company there's— you shouldn't be working for a company if there's got a few people in it who really inspire you. And so it's just like making— like, you don't need like one uber mentor. Like, what I'm saying is, as you meet people on the career— on your journey, like, learn everything you can from them, build a close relationship with them, and identify who those people are, right? And, and, and just be really clear-minded about, okay, you've got something I want to learn, how can you teach me, show me, right? And so I think it's all about got a series of mentors throughout your career versus one, right? And, and I'd go the best way, like the starting idea, is get going. Start working somewhere, do the hard yards, start really noticing what you like doing, what you don't, start seeing who inspires you and start hanging out with them, learning from them. Simple things, right, which if you do consistently over time, you'll unlock a brilliant career.

In your career in advertising, you would have learned the importance of storytelling. I mean, you mentioned even the reason you picked history is because you love stories. I think it's a really unsung hero in your career. Like, even when it comes down to contextualizing why you should be the person to work for a company, what would you say from, you know, either the people that you look up to, like your Johnny Wilkinson's that you've had chats to, or anyone who has really stood out to you in interview processes, have done really well in that storytelling process?

I mean, it's a really big question because storytelling is like, is multifaceted. But I guess for me, when you— I say notice what you're good at, is notice what your superpower is going to be, right? And I, um, it's going to be a bit of a long-winded answer, but I'll get to the point. I was always— when I was always in a bit in awe of Oxbridge graduates, right? My older brother and older sister went to Oxford, super intelligent. And when I got into workplace, I was always expecting those guys to be like the most incredible people. And genuinely, it's not casting dispersions anyone from Oxford and Cambridge, but I've always been slightly unimpressed because I think it's because I had a really high bar in my head. I think the reason for that is there are lots of different kinds of intelligences you need to thrive in the workplace. And obviously academically means you can retain a lot of information, which is one of them. But I guess, you know, it was a real eye-opener for me realizing, look, I don't have to be the most academic or even the smartest person in the room, but I've got to know what I'm good at and where I add value. And that's super important when you're building a business and building a team because that self-awareness allows you to go, where do I need help, right? But for me, it was when I worked at this innovation consultancy called What If I realized I was really good at understanding people and what are they— what, when they're talking to me, what do they really mean, right? Because you build products on insight and the better insight, the better the product. So I got really good at that. So I got really good at going reading between the lines and creating great insight. But then I became really good at packaging that up and explaining that in a way like I've been very good at synthesizing a lot of information and focusing on what's important. So storytelling is, is a few things. It's like it's being able to really, really get to the point. But it's also how you engage people, right? So, you know, I, in what I do, I meet people every day, right? And there's kind of like, there's a, hi, I'm Alex, I do this. And then there's telling you like enough about me to bring some energy to it. There's, how do I talk about the business? How do I talk about a new idea we're working on? And if you can present an idea clearly, people can gravitate around it. It, you can execute it better, you can create better outcomes. Even like, if you think about how many times in a day you use storytelling, it's multiple. How do you set up a meeting, you know? How would you craft a brilliant email to someone to get the outcomes that you want? So I'd say to anyone, uh, doing history, your— what your career is powerful and super transferable. You might not see it yet, but it is.

Yeah, I think obviously I now realize the significance of history degree in hindsight. But I think the thing that prompted me into doing anything, and when I believe my career journey actually started, was, um, when I stripped everything back to basics and just thought about myself, probably the age that your kids are at right now, like when I was 9 and 12, how did I behave? Like, who was I? And I think the two things that my parents actually told me is like, you were just very curious, like, and, you know, you would, you'd be that guy that asked one too many questions and made people stay behind after class and and you were really emotional, emotional. So, you know, I'd get really upset if a grade didn't go my way. And I think sometimes, you know, the education system and just kids at that age can bully those characteristics out of you. And I think refining them in your career is like really important, right? It's what enables you to build on those skills, and it's how this podcast started.

Yeah, 100%. And look, if I was ever to redo the education system system. I think it needs to— if it had an overhaul, it would understand there are different kinds of intelligence to bring value to the workplace and value to an economy. And going, how do you better develop and train them? Like, curiosity is a superpower, right? We were training our team on Sunday. We had a big all-team session around curiosity because it's going to underpin our service proposition. But like, you can't— being curious allows you to understand a human, understand the problem, understand what's going on. Any brilliant service business has to be curious. We built— my co-founders and I built Until on curiosity. We were like, that's something really interesting going on in the health and wellness space. And we think practitioners are these underserved superheroes. And so we just wanted to go and find out more. And literally all we did was start hanging out with them for hundreds of hours. And we're just really curious about what's going on in your world and how can we, how can we help? But yeah, I'd say to a lot of— I certainly suffered from that at school, which was like, you know, you judge yourself versus your grades and and they are, they're quite binary. They're one reader of like how, of how intelligent you are and the value you can bring to the world. And again, it's the same point I've made, which is you've got to get out into the workplace and, and start. It's a big experiment, right? Again, what am I good at? What do I enjoy doing? What creates impact, impact and outcomes? What do other people value about what I bring? Um, you'll realize, you'll sit in meetings and you'll see, and again, I think this is a really big thing to anyone starting out in a career is be brave. And we all suffer from imposter syndrome because if you're in a meeting and you're seeing something that other people aren't seeing, I guess early on in your career, and I certainly suffered from this, the temptation is to go, well, that's because it's dumb. And these smart people, if they obviously they're not saying it because it's not, it's not intelligent. Often it's because you just see the world differently and you're unique in that sense. And so, you know, you've got to be able to be self-aware enough to spot those opportunities, put them into the room and understand your power Yeah, I think self-awareness is a, it's a really important skill when it comes to being a founder as well and actually building that, that team.

The ability to empower someone rather than just delegate to. Um, obviously when you found out that Onsale was something you wanted to build, I think to make it work you needed a team around you. What did that team building process look like for you?

Yeah, so there's a, there's a small group of us as co-founders and we're all, we're all pretty clear about what our strengths and weaknesses are, so So one of my co-founders is a guy called Dan, and he's from the industry, right? So he's an ex-strength and conditioning coach. And so he brings that just deep industry knowledge and credibility, which you need in any market. Another co-founder is a guy called Vish, who's super like commercially astute. And I know that's where I don't spike, right? And so, you know, if I was ever going to start a business, it would be with someone like Vish. I'd always told myself because like, I know I'm not great at that. And that's the self-awareness bit rather than going, hey, I can do everything. I know, I know I'm not world class at that. I spike around the kind of like conceptual creative, like product brand marketing, like, you know, what are we building? And then there's a guy called Jay who's like spikes around ops and making the business run properly, you know, financially as well. And so, yeah, like we all bring something different and I think it's just being on that initial journey as well. And I write about this in the book, which is, you know, I think we say like climb a mountain with your co-founder before you get into bed with them, right? I mean, luckily Vish and I had worked together like, you know, for many years. This before, so we knew each other. But I think it's really important, you know, you have the self-awareness, but also you really understand not just the capabilities but the character of the people you're going to be working with.

I want to talk about the founder startup ecosystem nowadays because it has become a more viable thing in theory to build a company at a younger age, you know, straight out of university, for example. But I think there is a lot of misconceptions over the reality of it, and I know you didn't start your career as a founder. You sort of earned your badges, you learned what you were best at, and then you went on to found something. But even I saw, um, the founder of Innocent Drinks, uh, he reviewed your book, and I think he— that, that a lot of people talk about that as the original startup. Yeah, Innocent Drinks. Is there anything from sort of the olden days or of, of stuff? Oh, okay. Is there anything about, um, you know, startups, uh, when they first came about that you think needs to be brought back into the culture now?

I think— but look, look, this is just my observation, right? Let's take it with a pinch of salt. I think there are a small handful of like dyed-in-the-wool type A kind of founders, right, who, you know, your Bransons of this world who were like destined from day one to create, create businesses, right? And that's all they were ever going to do. And for those people, I'd say do it, you know, crack on, right? But I, I think what I'd be telling my kids is get a trade first, right? And so, I mean, they say that the secret to happiness is having a plan B because things can never get that bad, right? And look, startup is a lot of risk. That's one reason why you should get a trade first, right? You know, if it doesn't work, you've always got something you can go back to. But more importantly, I think it allows you to spot opportunity, build network, and understand all that piece we talked about, self-awareness, right? So if you've never worked before, how do you really know about what you're good at and where you need help and where I don't. Um, how do you— how do you get passionate about the kind of business that you want to create? Because a business isn't just an idea, right? So there's what sits out in the world, and then behind it there's people, teams, you know, operating systems, culture. And how do you want that to be, right? And if you've never worked in a company that's got a great culture or a bad culture, how do you know? How do you know where's your benchmark, right? And obviously, naturally, some people will just do this brilliantly, right? But I think for most people you'll be so much better at it if you've got some real life experience of working in businesses and you've learned a trade, right? And then you've got a plan B. So I'd counsel most people to do that. And I'd say, look, it is a marathon, not a sprint. I'm 46, right, candidly. And I definitely don't feel like I'm— this is my last rodeo, right? You know, there's stuff that I want to do. You know, you can be building— one of our biggest investors There's this guy called Mark Smith who's built, I think, $2 billion fitness businesses in the US, and now he's piling in with us because he sees a huge opportunity. And like, you know, you might go, the guy's in his 60s, right? And it's like, still doing it, still got the passion. So marathon, not sprint.

How do you then, you know, at the stage right in your career, keep being as curious, as naive, you know, in order to grow? Because I think, you know, youthful naivety is a superpower that is pretty age agnostic. I think it's, it's really important. The beginning stages, but it's really important to keep it alive and keep that flag flying throughout your career. So how do you sort of keep hold of that even when you know so much?

I mean, that's a meta question, right? Because it strikes right to the heart, I think, of the meaning of life. Like, why are you here? What's the point? And for me, it's growth, it's development, it's learning, it's experience. And good or bad, right? I mean, I've learned— I've launched businesses that haven't worked. They're just part of— it sounds like a cliché, but they are part of a journey, part of the experience. And like, you know, I definitely think you've got to— and there is a— I mean, I think it's Four Seasons I worked with once, a hotel brand. Their customer service approach is, we can't teach you what your mumma ought to. And they go like, good manners, right, should be innate. And so part of this is innate, right? Part of this is like, you— if you're not curious about your own growth and your own development, you know, what are you reading outside of work? You know, what are you learning? What are you doing? Because, you know, I think you have to look at it through multiple lenses, not just a work context. You know, I think as a human you should want to be developing. I mean, you know, Jordan Peterson talks about this a lot, doesn't he? Like the line between order and chaos and how actually you want one foot in both. And I, you know, I wholly agree with that. Right. You should always feel like in your life you are being challenged. You know, you don't want to be in your comfort zone. You don't want to be in your panic zone, but you want to be somewhere between the two. Across everything that you're doing. Um, and you know, like even having kids, right, that's a pure expression of that. I mean, it's, it's challenging, right? And it forces you to learn and develop and, and as a human. So I think, look, I think it has to be innate. I think it's something you have to look at beyond just work.

And in terms of more like hard skills that you might have taken from the likes of BBC and Nike and what have— what would you say you learned within that sort of more corporate infrastructure that you are applying, um, to your startup now, you'd like to give to the younger generation?

Yeah, good question. Um, so, uh, so I— advertising taught me, um, client management. So I, you know, I guess a client-agency relationship can be quite pejorative, but— and it can always— and I've been on both sides of it, but being on the agency side teaches you how to service a client, which teaches you how to manage a relationship, like manage a corporate relationship and have it drive value for you. It's super important, right? And I just, I think they're just good business hygiene as well. Like, it teaches you, you have to be on point, you have to communicate really, really well. And I think it's a huge skill to learn. And every, every time I've met people who've worked agency side, they always— that their general business skills are always really good. How they greet you, how they show up, like, you know, setting a meeting room up, doing things with care, right? Being on time, hitting deadlines. Because when you work in an agency, you can't be late, right? And so, so I think it just, it's just a really good business hygiene skills, right? And client and client and relationship management. Nike taught me around football marketing in London. Nike taught me rigor, executional rigor, like, and until you work at a company like that, there's doing things and then there's really doing things well and what it takes to do that in terms of like how demanding you have to be, your attention to detail, your standards. Uh, so yeah, huge, huge bit. And, um, uh, What If taught me that curiosity, the insight, but it really taught me as well, uh, writing skills and like how to write and present, uh, to, to boards. Um, and again, you know, I wasn't a natural presenter. You've got to put yourself in an environment where you have to do that a lot, but presenting narratives creative storytelling, selling basically. Because all that is, is, you know, if a client's paying you a lot of money to create a new, you know, breakfast cereal that needs to generate 100, you know, million, whatever, uh, they've got to buy into your recommendation. When you're going, this solution is the right one, which you're gonna have to build a factory to make, they look into your eyes and they want to see that this is the— yeah, okay, this is the right thing to do. Um, and so yeah, and now what I'm learning is much more of a people side things when you, when you start a business like, like Ant Hill. Um, and I'm sure afterwards there'll be something else in the next business or whatever comes next.

So that, that stage at Wativ where you're presenting, you're, you're talking to people, you're learning to, to sell— I think a big part of what you do at Ant Hill is to bring in sort of very recognized people to come actually, uh, you know, give talks and build that community around the company. What would you say is the importance of of that community for your business and how have these amazing athletes sort of injected that into it?

So it's a really good question. We say people come for the facilities but stay for the community. So I mean, that answers your question in terms of how important it is. It's hugely important and you can replicate because I was involved in Parkrun, so I helped kind of like shape that in the UK. And, you know, we, you know, it's got 6 million registered runners and I always said, you you know, with Parkrun, if it stopped, people would just come and run in the park at 9 AM anyway because the community was so powerful. And that's literally what happened during COVID is, you know, people just come and still meet and run. And so that really opened my eyes to the power of community. You know, like you strip that away, Parkrun's a 5K run around the park. I mean, you do it on your own, right? But it's the community is the bit that encourages you, supports you, gets you to come back. And that was a real light bulb moment for me, which is why, why community is so important to us on TIL, because like, you know, there's the value you can add like from a physical product like space, and then there's the value you layer onto that where someone comes in and they've got a friend they have a connection with, they get given a bit of advice, they come to an event that inspires them, you know, someone makes them laugh, we put a lunch on and then there's food, you know, someone notices when they've been having a bad day and can, because they've built that connection, That's the value. That's a real value. And it takes time to foster, but when you get it right, it's powerful.

My final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is when you first started off in your career, you might have had a certain idea of what success would go on to look like. Then fast forward with everything you've learned and done along the way. What is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Ask me at the end. I mean, Oh, that's a really good question. Um, I— the definition of success for me is, is progress and, and is growth. Like, like, honestly, because I, um, I mean, the reason— so take— taking a leap to do Untill was driven by— that was driven by the opportunity to learn at an incredibly accelerated rate, like incredibly accelerated rate. Look, the best value you can build is in yourself, right? You know, it's like every time you're learning, if you think about yourself as a stock market, you're investing, buying shares in yourself, right? Every time you learn and you develop and you get a new skill. And for me, that's like the Plan B, right? Because if everything else goes to shit, you're valuable, you're useful, right? And you can always create outcomes in the world. And so for me, it's about growth, learning, development, and, and also lastly, just creating things that do good in the world. Like, honestly, like, we really want Until to be something that changes people's lives, changes the wellness industry. And I think that's going to be my focus, right? And whatever I do after Until will be very much in that space as well. So using— growing and developing myself and then using it to create, to make the world better, tangibly better, that's more than I could at the start.

I'm sure you will. Alex, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.