Andrew Dobbie, Founder & CEO @ MadeBrave

Welcome back to another episode of The Garage Guide. Today we're joined by Andrew. Welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, so you are the founder of Made Brave. Um, it's been a long journey. I think it's coming up to 12, 12 years now.

Just, just more than, I think, 13.

Yeah, and So what is Made Brave, just for the listeners?

Yeah, so we're a brand and creative agency. So we spend our time solving business problems or, I suppose, opportunities for customers using the power of creativity.

Is this— when did you realise that there was a viable business here? Because I imagine when you first started out at Carphone Warehouse, this wasn't something on your radar, right?

Yeah, no, I never— growing up, I never knew anyone that ran a business. I was just saying a minute ago to you, I didn't even know the word entrepreneur and still can't spell it. But yeah, I've always been a creative person, so I always knew I was going to get into some sort of creative job. When I was younger, I was always into kind of art and music at school, so I played in bands and I was always colouring in. My mum always sort of encouraged me to do colouring in competitions, and so I was always winning these Um, but yeah, it was literally— I didn't start my business until I was 30, so I had no idea, especially back at Carphone Warehouse, that I would ever have a business in me.

And that idea of being creative, I feel like especially in the education system, they're quite— it's quite a narrow definition of what it means to be a creative, right? You know, you're good at art or you're good at singing or whatever it is, but then like, you know, things like entrepreneurship are inherently creative, but they're not really sold to you as being creative. Like, I got stuck drawing stickmen. I'm not a creative guy, so to speak, but then everything I do now is being creative. So when was it you, you really, or I guess, accepted that you were creative and that that was something you could bring into your own career?

Yeah, well, I think, I think you're right. I think creativity used to just be art and music, but, um, I'm a big believer there's creativity in everyone, and it's just kind of dialed up at different volumes in each and each and every one of us. Um, but I also think it could be nurtured. I think it's something that you can, you know, some of Some people just might have it a little bit more than other people, but you can definitely nurture it. You can definitely help people become more creative and you can definitely help businesses become more creative as well. So yeah, I think growing up I always had that sort of traditional sort of creative spark, but I suppose it was only once I'd left Carphone Warehouse, left my first job, that I realized I was capable of running a creative business as such. But that's been a total journey as well. So it didn't— probably where I started off in that business isn't where I've ended up.

No, that experience at Carphone Warehouse, how do you reflect on that? Because it's that sometimes those jobs, um, that aren't what you're, you know, destined for, that kind of really make you realize what you are, what you are in a career sense. So what was like the experience like there, and, and what did it really teach you in a career sense?

Yeah, no, it's actually, um, it's one of the things that most people miss, but it's actually really important, those kind of first few jobs if you have them. When I was at college, then university, it was a job that I did while I was there, and I didn't realize it at the time, but it gave me so many skills that as soon as I started my business, I was like, ah, that now joins a dot and that's now something that helps. And so, for example, at Carphone Warehouse, they were always teaching you to be impartial with giving advice. And so I thought that's a really nice sort of values-led way of selling to people. So rather than selling and trying to push something that's got more margin as a company, They always instilled into us, give the customer what's right and they'll go away happy. You might make less money, but they'll go and refer someone else to you. It also taught you to speak to people and how to chat. And that's one of the most important skills in business. It's one of the biggest things you'll be learning from doing this podcast is how to have a conversation, how to engage with people. And it's these kind of softer skills that we sometimes don't appreciate are the things that are going to set us up for success. And so, yeah, I kind of— I worked there for 4 years and probably some of the best experiences I've had.

And you obviously have a, a big team now that you're, you're managing, and I'm sure sitting on top of the recruiting process as well for that. What is it that students nowadays are— how are they standing out for, you know, an agency like yourself? I think, you know, you say university is a tick box, and you, you mentioned those sort of more alternative, like, sort of beginning jobs. Yeah, it's I imagine there's an element of storytelling and an ability to contextualize why you are who you are that makes them stand out. But for you, what really is it?

Yeah, well, I suppose I don't— you know, it's quite funny you mentioned university. I don't look now, you know, when someone's applying for a job at my agency, I don't look for university degrees. I actually probably glance over that part. I'm trying to think consciously. If I think about it, I probably don't.

Is that not a problem in itself though? Do you know what I mean?

I mean, probably, yeah. I mean, it probably feels like people are wasting a part of their life that they don't necessarily need to. But I understand why people do it because there's one part of me, maybe I do notice it, right? And sometimes you look at it and say, well, if someone's done a 4-year degree, maybe it proves they can stick something out. They can stick at something for 4 years. But I think usually what I'm looking for when someone's applying for a job is kind of tenacity. So you sometimes get some people that apply for a job and they come and speak to me at an event and say, 'Apply for a job, I didn't get it.' I'm like, 'Did you apply again?' It's like, it's not always as simple as the first time you apply somewhere you're going to get it because sometimes the people you're sending emails to get so many emails, you know, and it just, it might just get lost on a really busy day. And it's not that someone doesn't value you, it's just it's landed on the wrong day. So never let that put you off. The other thing I say to people is if you're applying for a creative company, this is your first creative brief, so how do you get attention? So like at Made Brave, we've had so many weird ways people have applied. What slides? Oh man, I've got loads. So we had someone that came fully dressed as the Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland and they just literally appeared at the front door. So there was a face there and they handed a bottle, sort of the CV in a bottle, inside a bottle. We've had someone send a little like a 2 or 3-year-old girl to the door, and they had like a box, like Toy Story, that said Andy's Room on the bottom, and they had like a Mr. Potato Head as the CV. We've had people send a jigsaw every day for a month. We've had people send balloons, cakes, all sorts of stuff.

Virgin on creepy.

Some of them are creepy, but the trick is you've got to make sure the normal stuff is done, right? So you've got to make sure, first of all, you've got a good portfolio, right? And that's just got to be a given because if you're applying for that kind of job and you want to be a creative, I'm using that as an example, make sure that's great. Then you've got to make sure whatever letter you're writing or however email, whatever you're— no spelling mistakes, everything is right there. And then when you've done that, this is the bit you can stand out and this is where you can set yourself apart. Like my executive creative director, he sent a brain in a transplant bag. And then, you know what that does in the office though? Everyone goes, where's the brain guy? You know, everyone starts saying something about that person. Now that person's got a narrative, a story that's already in the business beyond the other 100 people that are applying for a job. So it's kind of your first opportunity to try and find a way to stand out.

And there might be a student listening to this that they think, I've never even come across a company that kind of would accept something like this. And I think that comes down to the way that you've sort of branded yourself. And, and, and I think, how do you even, you know, how do you even start to, to, to make your company seem accessible in that way? Um, because I think a lot of corporates, they're saying they want people to stand out, but they're not actually telling our students what that means. Like, what does that actually look like? So for you, what are you actually like trying to send out to students as a brand?

Yeah, well, that's a really good point, actually. And let me try and figure out how to break it down. There's two sides to that, isn't there? It's like, as a company, how do you show the world you stand for something? And then as someone applying to a company, how do you make sure you catch the attention of them? So when you're building a brand, a company, we've got a bunch of tools in our toolkit. And these are all different things that we use to create a business and to create a brand. And there are ways of communicating what we believe in so that we tell the world. Because when you build a brand around a company, you're basically telling the world what you're trying to attract back, but also what you're trying to repel. So we have a purpose. So it's a reason beyond making money. So it's kind of like a north light, a shining light that guides us to a reason beyond getting out of our bed. We've then got a set of values. Now, your values are usually 4 or 5 things that they often start from the founder or the person that creates a business, but then they're taken on by an organization. And these are the beliefs and the behaviors that you want to see within your company, within your group, within a bunch of people. And again, when you push those out into the world, you're looking for people that agree with them because not everyone's going to. So I always say it's better to have 100 people that love your brand than 1,000 people that just like it. Because what you're doing is you're looking for people that really get it. So with your podcast, you're looking for people that really want this. And if they don't, that's okay because they're just not right for this. They're not the right guest, they're not the right audience member. And so, if I was a student and I was looking at a company and I was thinking, how am I going to attract their attention? Well, I'd go straight onto their About page. I would figure out what their founding story was. I would figure out what their values are, what brand values, and they'll have 4 or 5 things that they stand for, that they communicate. And I'd be looking for ways to play them back to them. So, if creativity was one of the values or bravery was in there, you would then think, right, I need to do something creatively brave. And then when you're sending or doing something or whatever stunt you decide to do, you can then follow up in your narrative to say, I'm being totally brave in the way I approach you here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then hopefully the person on the other side is going to go, right, they get us and they've clearly bespoke it. I think what some people do wrong is they send the same thing to 100 companies and they hope that they're all going to come back and then they're really down when no one comes back. It's because you need to have a personalised approach for every company. And the other thing really to remember is it's the human being on the other side. So human beings like to be entertained, they like to be surprised, they like to smile. So how could you, when you're applying, how can you make that person feel one of those emotions? And that's how you're going to separate yourself from others.

It's interesting, it's almost been glamorized applying for 50 different companies at university. It's like, you know, you have to, you have, it's like that's what you have to, it's a rite of passage, but I think in this job market, you know, where you do have to like really know why you want to work for a company and try and work out your value add. You're right, it is more about personalization. And even, you know, I'm sure not just yourself but the people in your team, like you're way more accessible over LinkedIn to actually speak to than you think. That's— there's a whole new possibility in a career sense right now, right?

Absolutely. And, you know, it was like what we were saying earlier, it's— there's so many ways you can find ways into the company because like you with this podcast, and you've got a different way to be able to engage with people that you want to either work with, be friends with, connect with. So again, if I was a student, I'd be thinking about, well, rather than just sending messages on LinkedIn, how could I make that person want to— is there a value give that I can give them? Because coming on a podcast, you're giving me value, I'm giving value back. So there's an exchange. So you're always thinking, how can I do that? But also Yeah, I think just personalizing to each of those companies is much easier.

And I'm curious because I'm, I'm aware that I have probably quite a London-centric view on careers, and I'm interested to get your insight into what it's like in Glasgow, in Scotland more generally. What, what, what's the general, um, idea you're getting from the younger people coming into your company when they think about about the climate and the environment of careers in Scotland?

Yeah, well, I mean, I spend a lot of time traveling all over the world, so I get quite a good rounded view of the whole world. And I think it's pretty tough for younger people now. You guys have had a hard time going through the pandemic and, you know, it must be quite hard because you've got things like AI coming in at the moment. And, you know, I suppose you can look in one lens and say that AI is consuming a lot of low-level jobs. So, like junior type roles, administrative roles, which is often where young people get into businesses first. But if it was me and I was listening and I heard that, I wouldn't let that scare me. I would be the one that's going, I'm going to figure out how to use these tools and I'm going to be the one that turns up an interview and says, I've got them all in my toolkit. And that's going to be really exciting to someone in a business as well. So, I think there's always jobs for good people. You've just got to be tenacious. You've got to keep turning up. You've got to be creative in how you catch attention. And then of course, you don't always have to get a job for someone, right? You can do what you're doing. You've just started your own thing. It's not always easy for everyone. Everyone's not in the same situation. We all come from different backgrounds. But I started my business, I had no money, no personal money. I didn't come from a wealthy family. And so it's definitely possible. And I think just it's almost trying to figure out what your purpose is, where you feel you sit and where you can add value to other people. But a good thing also I try to say to younger people as well is like everyone's trying to constantly tell you what you're good at, what you're good at, what you're good at. It's also really powerful to know what you're not good at. And if you can catch that one really early, you know, because I think there's a pressure when you're younger and you're trying to get a job, you turn up at interviews and you almost have to pretend, yeah, I'm good at this, I'm good at this, I'm good at this, I'm good at this, I'm good at this. And we're not. And I think it's really powerful. I say that people have a superpower and they have a kryptonite. And I say, if you can figure out what your kryptonite and tell people, that's a really assuring thing. Because if someone's sitting in an interview, I would be saying, for me, I'm great at creativity. I can spot ideas, vision, I can join dots, but I'm not an operational person. I need process people around me. I need producers like we were talking about earlier on. I need those people to put structure around me. And if you do that, I will thrive and I'll thrive in your business. So You know, so maybe a little insight to take away.

Yeah, I think one thing we, we're doing quite badly as a generation at the moment is putting people like yourself that have achieved the success on a pedestal that you've never really been asked to be put on. Um, and you know, with that, I want to ask you, you know, they'll see you on LinkedIn with all these followers and your business thriving, etc., but that, that younger Andrew Who was it you mentioned, you know, finding out what you're not good at and what you are, that natural self in your career? Like, what was that?

I'm still figuring it out. I'm still, you know, I think that's the thing is you can look at LinkedIn and you can see follower counts and, you know, and think most people are still figuring it out. You know, every day I found myself in situations I don't know where I've been. I think the I think it's a constant iteration. So, as long as you can keep getting up, that's a really important part, keep continuing. Most people who are looking to be successful or have a successful business, I've noticed they give up too soon. And most people have got greatness in them. We're all unique in our own way, and it's often hard. I remember sitting back to early 20s going, what the hell is my story? And what the hell am I here? And why would anyone have me? And I remember before, starting a business, I was like, I would look at all the best agencies and go, they'd never have me. And literally now, you know, I'm employing, you know, I've got a company and employing some of the best creative talent in the country. And I wish I had more confidence early on. You know, I think it's, um, you're, you're, you're more talented than you think you are.

And so say someone's, yeah, they found out who they are, they, they, you know, they show themselves as different, they stand out, they get into a company. As a company, how are you making sure that you nurture that, that creativity, that, that natural self. And, and yeah, really, um, make them want to stay and work for your company. Because I think that's some, some, something that students are overlooking right now. It's like they just want that job, and when they get the job, they're done. Like, that's success, you know. And then, but then actually, that's when the— yeah, that's when you're actually living and breathing something. And you have to really be conscious of what life in that company will look like, right?

Yeah. So, I mean, in my agency specifically, I've always tried to do— well, I suppose my job as a leader and what I've realized over the last 12 years is to make someone, when they enter my company, be a better version of themselves by the time they leave. Now, some people will stay for a year, some people will stay for 10 years and everywhere in between. But if you're a leader of a company, your job is to do that. And so that sometimes takes some people longer on their own journey to figure that out. But I always tried to balance out 3 things, and I suppose I'm constantly trying to balance 3 things. So, if you imagine a Venn diagram here, I always said in my agency that the work has to be world-class, and that was going to be a given. So, we had to figure out how to do that. And so, I gave the responsibility of that to creative director and said, "This is now your studio. You manage the work for the clients." And it's not because I'm not interested, I'm actually really interested and love it, but I can't possibly do the other 2 things. The other 2 parts of my business were to sort of going to knock this whole thing over. Make a good clip of that. The whole water going over. Is to make sure that we're financially viable, that there's money coming in the door because a lot of people, a lot of creative people as well, think that's a bad word in creativity. But, you know, finance and money to a business is like air to a human being. If you don't have air, nothing happens. And then the third one for me was culture. So I always wanted to create a culture where people wanted to be, where they wanted to work. But that doesn't rely on just me. I can create the spark of something. Again, I can build those values. I can set a purpose. I can set a vision. I can create all those parts, but it takes a whole company to do it. So again, when you start in a company, don't think it's going to be something that's handed to you. It's not going to be passed down. Here's our culture. Here's how you do it. The more that you can build into it, The more that you can create, the more that you can make it a better place, the better chance of survival, thriving in that job and having a great career you're going to be, and the better chance of becoming a leader because the leaders are the ones that come in and help shape. You kind of get some people who will come in and, "Oh, this isn't great," and would moan about that. Or you get people who are going to change it for the better. So if you can choose to be that person, you're on a trajectory to sort of growth.

Let's talk about entrepreneurship then, because I feel like, uh, as a, as a young person today, it's never been easier, quote unquote, to start a company. Um, but there's a lot of misconceptions, uh, and, you know, social media does a very good job of glamorizing it and, and making it seem like it's easy. Um, and I'm interested with your own journey. I'm sure it may have changed the landscape since you initially started, but you know, you, you didn't start with much. Um, it's an agency, so you need work coming in, right, to keep going. And obviously, you know, coming up to 13 years, like, that's a long time to be in business. What do you think, like, someone starting a business now, they're thinking, oh, it could be for them at a young age, they should be thinking about? Yeah, with regards to entrepreneurship, what is the reality of it?

Yeah, I think, you know, you're right, it's a really good time now. Um, When I just started, the social media was just figuring itself out. So I was quite lucky in terms of I would use Facebook at the beginning before people really knew how to use Facebook. I was using it to storytell. And we know that now, that that's the most powerful thing to do. But at the time, I decided I was not going to put all of our work on social. I did that, put that on our website, and I used social media to storytell the growth the business. Now, that was a bit of luck because I just— that's what felt right to me. But that's what made us grow really quickly in the early days. And so I suppose pre-social media, companies had to create a viable business and that would give them influence, and then they would use that influence to figure out how to grow an audience around them. The world has flipped upside down now. So you've got a real great opportunity that you get a camera or your phone and you can create an audience now really simply on TikTok or Instagram and you can build an audience. And now what you'll notice is you've got a lot of content creators that build the audience first. And then if you can turn that audience into customers, you've got a different switch rather than having to create a business and then try and build an audience around it.

Yeah, I think that is the thing. We've got this amazing ability to distribute, which always used to be the problem.

That's the barrier. Yeah, you couldn't get that.

But then I guess the flip side of that, you say, okay, great, you've got the audience. But, you know, I think that's where you can trip up, right? It's like learning how to do that, not just fleece people, you know, sell a flag, a course or whatever, but actually deliver genuine value and, and understand what your customers want. Um, what, what, what's that journey look like for you in terms of actually, you know, really working out, okay, each customer is going to be different, they're going to want different things, how do you actually close deals and make a business out of this attention and audience?

Yeah, well, I suppose it varies so much depending on what you're doing, but I think if you can't do that first part of capturing an audience, you're going to have a difficult, probably have a difficult way of doing the part after that. So, you know, but it doesn't need to be as hard as you think it can be. You know, people are so lucky now because you can just marry up any hobby you've got, any, you know, if you're into horses, if you're into Anything. You can literally, the nicest of the niche things, you can build an audience around. And then I suppose you're looking for where there is a space in the market and can you fill that space in the market with something? Can you fix a problem for someone? I mean, usually it's much easier for me to talk about my business, but just now my son's 13 and we've grown a big TikTok following over the last couple of years. And we've monetized it in a couple of different ways. But I think it's been so valuable teaching him how to grow an audience, how to nurture an audience, how to reply to things. And even through the process, I've been able to teach him about like taking on business calls. I've been able to teach him how to deal with trolling. So I mean, there's so many lessons that you can learn from it, but most people consume and they don't produce. So you've taken a step forward here, right? And you're producing, but most people sit and doomscroll. So I think if you can shift your mind and try and stop the doom scroll and think like, how do I jump in to produce content rather than consume it? It's the first step to figuring out what you're going to do and what you're going to create. But I'd like to also say, because I think when people listen, there's a real pressure that everyone's got to become an entrepreneur now, and it's not right for everyone because it's stressful as fuck, I promise. Right? There's a lot of stress goes on. You're trying to balance creativity all these human beings' needs, wants, desire, money. And you can't miss wages. You have not missed paying wages for 13 years, right? And that wage bill is there every month. And not everyone is capable of that stress management. You know, there's been lots of time in my 13 years that it's really got to me, that pressure. And so for some people, the right answer is getting a job, you know, is getting a job, doing a 9 to 5 and doing that really well for people and putting all your passion and energy into something and having that break at night. Some people freelance is the right gig. And it might just be you work for yourself, you've got a skill or a craft, and you're able to sell your time for money. And you might have a little bit more freedom, but there's a little bit more pressure there because you've got to find and hunt for work. And then obviously the third is hunting for work and it doesn't stop. And it might involve raising money, it might involve doing it organically. Mine was always organic. And so you don't always have to raise, but obviously depends on the type of business as well. But I think it's quite an important one for anyone listening is don't feel overly pressured that that's the only route.

Um, you know, yeah, I think I would add on like an extra step that you have to do before you even, you know, actually start thinking about what the content you're gonna make, which is, uh, kind of become, become uncomfortable that you've got to put yourself out there. And, and that's really applicable to entrepreneurship or careers more generally now because, you know, like we said earlier, that everybody's saying you need to stand out. So you do need to get comfortable with the idea of of facing cringe and overcoming it. And I imagine for you, like, posting on Facebook content that maybe other people weren't, there was an element of like, oh, I wonder how people are going to receive this, or self-doubt. How did you overcome that back then?

Yeah, you get all your friends like, who does he think? Yeah, all these messages. Yeah, I think it's definitely a big barrier for a lot of people, isn't it? Like speaking in front of a camera, speaking into a microphone. I think I was terrible when I first started. I couldn't get sentences together. But the more and more I did it, the more and more it helps you shape your thoughts. For me, I do a lot of public talking now, so talking on stage and sharing my story. And again, putting yourself in those uncomfortable positions forces you to think about what do I believe in? What do I think of? Yeah, but yeah, definitely, you know, when you start to get some sort of traction, success, it definitely attracts good energy, attracts bad energy. So the more and more I've grown, I've learned to detach myself when any of that bad energy appears. And, you know, because, you know, it's like you get like a thousand great comments and there's one negative. Yeah, we've all got that negativity bias and we go to that one and our brain sits there. But it's, but it's not easy, I think. Yeah. But I think trying to, to only take advice from people who are where you want to be is a good thing. So, you know, these trolls will capture your attention, capture your energy, but best not to listen to people who aren't where you want to be yourself.

That's true. I think with career advice as well, it's like, it's not something you can prescribe, right? It's something you have to go out and find what relates to you yourself. And I think not just taking what one person said as gospel is a really important thing. Is there something that you were told, you know, and also the context around it and why it was so significant to you in your journey, whether that's building your business or beforehand, that really resonated? And why was it so impactful at the time? And maybe who said it to you?

I think the first time I surrounded myself with other entrepreneurs was really important to me. I got invited to a weekend on a tiny little island It's called Wee Cymru. It's in Scotland. And we had speedboats out to this little island and it was all sorts of young entrepreneurs back when I was young. And it was the first time I actually probably heard the word entrepreneur and I met all these people and I was buzzing from the energy and the other positive people. And it made me realize then it's really important who you surround yourself with. Iron sharpens iron. And so if you surround yourself with successful people, people that are motivated, people that are good, it rubs off. Believe me, it really rubs off and it soaks in and it sets the bar where you need to be. So, you can't be down there if everyone's here. And so, I think I've just tried to do that and I've always tried to find groups or people. Like tomorrow, I'm in London today and tomorrow I'm in a group called Entrepreneurs Organization. So, it's a group of founders who all have successful businesses and you get assigned a little group of entrepreneurs and there's 15,000 thousand of them in this group around the world, and I can tap into them and I learn from them all. And you all feel part of the same thing. So, you know, I think you just got to keep putting yourself in situations where you don't feel comfortable and very quickly you will feel comfortable. But if you surround yourself with negativity, with people who say you can't, you won't, guess what? That's what's going to happen. So, but it's hard because it's sometimes the situation we're in. So I think you've got to try and find and move yourself out of those negative situations. And find those positive people, and they're everywhere. You just need to kind of go looking.

Yeah, I think, uh, for me, that's, that was why I started the podcast. I had, I had my why locked down, and it wasn't the vanity metrics. It wasn't to interview celebrities and get clout and whatever. It was generally speaking, like, you know, the people at university that I was surrounded by, they, they wanted corporate careers. They, and they were happy with that. And I knew that I didn't, and I knew that the only thing that was going to change the viability of me doing something more alternative was by surrounding myself with people doing something more alternative. Um, so yeah, definitely being a product of your environment is a big one in, in your career. Uh, I, I wonder with you, obviously you've said there is a mission and a purpose behind what you do at Made Brave, but what's the real why for you? You know, what's kept you doing this for so long and putting up with the stress, as you alluded to.

You need to. You've got to survive, haven't you? As you get older and older and you've got teams and families and all of these things, you've got that drive that needs to happen. And I suppose it's a kind of unspoken part of business as well, is that once you start a business, you're in it. It's not just as simple as you leave and walk out if you get bored. So, that's one part of it, is the reality and the practicalities of a business. That you have to be there. But I suppose I also want to build something that I can eventually sell, that's got some value. So, I've also always tried to build a company and a brand, not just a job, because those things are two different things as well. You can build a job around you and you can lock yourself completely into it, or you can try and build a business where you are not the only part to it as well. But I truly, really get my buzz when I when I seed a creative idea to someone or I see someone become a little bit more creative because of something I've said or done. And that's really what we're going into businesses to do. We go in and see people and they've got a challenge and they don't know how to solve it and we show them how they can solve it in a really creative way. So, that gets me out my bed and I'll always be creative at heart, but I think I enjoy just that marrying up of business and creativity at the same time.

It might be like asking to pick between your kids, like your favorite child. But I wonder, because you do— you have worked on so many interesting projects, uh, and, and, you know, as we've discussed already, like, marketing is kind of everything right now. Um, the way your, your brand is seen, like, it, it's so impactful in your business. But do you have a favorite? Not just because of how well it did or whatever, but for the company? You know, some— maybe some situation where you're like, I don't know what I'm gonna do here, and you pulled something out of the bag where you're like, this has completely changed the way that brand's perceived?

Yeah, well, I can't take all the glory because it's usually my team that do a lot of it, but it's a team effort because everyone's got to do their part to it. We've got one of our clients is a company called Medtronic. So, it's one of these companies you'll never have heard of, but they're about $40 billion turnover. They're a healthcare device company. So, they make things like— they invented the pacemaker, they make the world's smallest pacemaker, pacemaker now, and they also make diabetic pumps, you know, the little patches that you put on your arm and they talk to your Garmin watch, etc. Now, people with Type 1, I think there's 1 in 3 people in the UK have Type 1 diabetes, and it's really difficult to explain to people what it's like having Type 1 diabetes. And so they gave us a brief for World Diabetes Day, and they wanted us to help explain to someone what it's like having type 1 diabetes. And we came up with a really— someone on my team came up with a really simple metaphor that it was like doing everything you do in daily life. So imagine what I'm doing here just now. But if you have type 1 diabetes, it's like keeping a blue balloon in the air, right? So while I'm talking to you, the balloon's moving all around and I'm trying to keep it up. And if that balloon falls, it's deadly, right? You might, you know, you might not survive, but you've got this balloon constantly. And we created that campaign and it went all over the world. And it's now one of the most used metaphors for type 1 diabetes. Giving people a way to explain that. And so that for me is like a perfect way of a tiny little idea that seems so simple but can solve a big problem for a lot of people.

And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off in your career journey, you might have had a certain idea of what success might go on to look like. But fast forward everything you've learned and achieved along the way. What is your definition of success and how has it changed?

I think my definition of success is trying to find the balance between doing what you love, what you feel like you're on the planet to do for people, trying to find that space to feel happy, being healthy. Yeah, I think it's that kind of, it's that mid-space between all of those things. I think at different points, probably when you're younger, you think it's purely the work. As you get a little bit older, you realize that it's work and balance with family and friends. And I always say it's life as well as work. So enjoy the journey. Try and just make sure you make that your work as fun and enjoyable as it can be.

Andrew, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate it.

Thanks so much. Cheers.