Anthony Smith, Director of Trailers @ Flight Studio

Welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Anthony. Welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thank you for having me, I'm excited.

Yeah, so, um, you are the director of trailers at Dario the CEO and Flight Studio, and yeah, your whole career path has been in the world of film production and editing. I think You know, for those that don't know Flight Studio and what you do, could you just explain what your role is within it?

Yeah, so my role within Flight Studio is essentially to create the promotional assets to promote the, the range of podcasts that we have. Currently I'm doing it for The Diary of a CEO, and essentially it's twice a week, 2 episodes go out live, and how can I create the biggest buzz possible in 90 seconds to entice enough people to go from one platform to the other platform and keep them watching as long as possible.

And that's what you do now. But if we go back to, to the beginning, studying at University of Lancashire, film production, what did you think your career might pan out to be then? What were you thinking about your career at a younger age?

It's great. It's actually great. It's crazy when I think about it because never— my career path, as I would say, is— has literally just been fogged by, like, the entire way. I have no idea this turning would lead to that turning, would lead to this roundabout leading up to this hill. And essentially, when I first got into this industry, into the media industry, I wanted to be an actor. That was my calling for a long time. I even went into like performing arts schools and I was doing ballet and tap and singing and all this, all this stuff. And then just out of the blue one day, I got— I was about to go out on stage to do a performance and I've got this— I was overcome with this like sudden stage fright. And I was freaking out, like my hands were shaking, I was sweating, I felt like I was having like this mini panic attack. And I went out and I'd done the performance, but then after that I vowed to like never step foot on stage or in front of a camera ever again. But around that sort of time as well, I was sort of finding my feet within going behind the camera. I was watching a lot of behind the scenes on DVDs and VHS, which half the people probably don't even know what they are now. Um, I would spend my evenings watching how these films were being made, like Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings and all of these films. And I was fascinated on how many people worked behind the scenes to bring, bring this stuff together. And it all came down to, like, onto the shoulders of this director who would create this masterpiece. And so then I turned into wanting to become this director. And around that time, I was always writing short stories and I was writing short scripts, and in a way, to then perform, perform them in auditions and stuff like that. So that then became my calling through GCSE and through my teen years. And then at university, that it started really bringing like traction of that— this is what I want to be. I want to be the guy who's making Hollywood films. And then near the end of university, I, I think I was more hit with the realization that not many people, especially people with my background and, and things like that, not many people work in that industry and get to that level. It takes a lot of luck, usually a lot of um, I guess good fortune from the backgrounds that you're born into. And ultimately, me and my ex-business partner at the time, Joe, was sort of left with this realization that if we were ever going to make it in this industry, we've got to completely grab, grab hold of it by ourselves, start from scratch, work our way up, and do it the hard way. And the way we found that we could support our passion of making short films and music videos was to make commercial films and online videos for small businesses in Preston. And when we sort of dug into that further and further upon graduation, we realized that there were so many companies that just didn't understand what makes a great promotional asset. And it was around the time, especially with small businesses where the buzzwords was SEO and getting your video on your website drives this much of traffic and it's all these buzz hits. So all these small companies were just literally just getting any video they could just to put on their website. And what you'd end up is a bunch of really awkward shots of a receptionist pretending to answer a phone, and then it'd cut to the managing director who's never spoken on camera before going, uh, 'Yeah, we are a great company and then we do this,' and, and you'd have all this, and then you'd have the elevator music going on in the background, and it just, it didn't really show the company in its finest light. So we essentially took on a bunch of loss leaders at first, made commercials, narrative-driven pieces for these small companies, and we quite quickly drew traction into the company and then ended up working with ASDA and the Army and the NHS. Building narrative-driven, emotionally led assets for them. And that then became the new calling. Suddenly I wasn't as interested in making the short fictional content anymore. I was still doing it as a bit of a hobby, but I found a passion in not only creating narratives but also putting that narrative towards a goal to help increase sales or to increase um, traction on their websites and popularity and things like that. So that then led to a very sharp turnaround where my entire life just literally on a click, 24 hours, um, my personal life changed, my relationship changed, mental health was in a really bad place, and I found myself back in London jobless. I left the company and I felt like I was back at square one again. And if anything, I'd lost like 5, 6 years of my life, and I was now going to be competing with these new up-and-coming, like, full of energetic editors to try and find these jobs. And I was lucky enough to find the job that I did working for social assets for some of the biggest films and TV studios in the industry.

And so before we like go on with the rest of your career, I'm just curious about that time at university. Do you think that the sort of reality check, knowing the industry that you have been in it for a while now, do you think it was like a necessary like feeling to get at a young age, like having, having a sense of what's, what is possible or what isn't? Or do you think that university should have done a better job in like propping up your dream at the time?

I, I think it's both. I think one of the biggest mistakes any graduate could make is the assumption that their degree is going to give them a career, that their degree is going to get them a well-paid salary, that this degree that they're spending all this money on as crazy as it sounds, and almost as defeatist and counterintuitive and, um, contradictory as the whole thing is, going out and thinking this degree is gonna change your life automatically and give you the dreams you want is one of the biggest mistakes most graduates make, and it's still being done today. Part of that, I think, is, um, our naivety that we don't think about this stuff. I was quite lucky in a sense with the industry. It's a very brutal industry, so I found out the hard way pretty easy. And when we were trying to apply for like apprenticeships at the time, apprenticeships weren't really as much of a thing. So trying to get any foot in that door, literally the way you could do it is write scripts, send it to studios, and hope one one of them would do it. And that's the reason why a lot of people from our backgrounds at the time wouldn't get in, because we— you can't spend all our times writing these scripts and trying to put our foot in the door and doing all of these lost leaders, no-paid work to prove our worth, because we need to live and we need to survive. We don't have money to fall back on. And for my industry, I think the the university never really speaks about that, and I don't know why. And I think it's not— it weren't just my university, it was every university, and also the schools that we go in before, and from pretty much every subject. And, uh, and it begins with in secondary school where if you're smart, the academic stuff, you'll go far. If you're not, but you might be talented in other areas, we don't really care about that. Are you smart at maths and biology? And I, I can't even remember what the academic stuff are, but I weren't good at them. Um, if you're good at them, it don't matter what your passions are, what you're good at, because that's how you become successful. So you're already fighting that battle going into a university thinking this is a Mickey Mouse course, which is what these sort of degrees get called. Um, which I'll take a personal dislike because I I love Disney and Mickey Mouse, so never use it as an insult. Um, so going into, going into university, these students already thinking that their course is a Mickey Mouse course, you're sort of then hoping the university can come in and give you the, um, the drive and the reality of what you need because it is so difficult. And this is in any industry now. And a lot of graduates do think it will happen for them because we've paid so much money to go to university, it has to happen. I've worked so hard in GCSE and A-levels to get into university, it has to happen. Reality is it don't. And the universities, maybe the bleak reality of it is, is the graft and the hard work that's ahead. Maybe they don't want to tell people that because suddenly their numbers might start dropping.

I find it interesting, the world of production, um, for other industries and people like graduating into it, I think there's an element of having to storytell and prove that they should give you a chance to then learn to be good at that job. But with things like production and editing, especially now you see like 16-year-olds editing for top YouTubers, I think there's an element of being able to showcase like you know, that you are actually genuinely good at as well. And, you know, obviously you're now the director of traders. I'm sure you're building and managing a team. What are some common traits that you're seeing from people, um, coming into the team at an early stage that makes them stand out?

The people who come in and really stand out for me, um, two really good examples actually is Liv and Cam. Who are on my team. Liv was actually a clips editor for DOAC before she moved over to the trailer team, and Cam was actually doing clips before he came over to the trailer team. So that— what was crazy about that was like, these were two individuals who I hadn't gone out of my way to hire, and now they're in this team. And the reason for that is, one, they have true grit. They, they understand the, the level you need to be at to be part of this team and to be part of DOAC as a whole. They understand that we're constantly going to have to try new things and new ways and implement tiny little 1% methods into our work to keep everything feeling fresh and exciting. Liv in particular, she's works so hard to understand the idea of story structuring and how to tell a good story and how to take guests on an emotional journey, which ultimately puts her ahead of thousands of editors. And she don't, she don't even realize that yet. But the fact that she can do that, and she's still growing and she's still getting better and better at it like I am, she's already so far ahead of so many editors in so many different industries that require her because that is a fundamental skill that's very difficult to learn unless you're willing to really push yourself into it. So that's one of the biggest traits I would say is telling stories.

The, the makeup of like that, that grit. Do you think it like an industry like yours, you said yours was very much passion-driven, wanting to be in this world, but obviously passion can only get you so far. Like, where does the rest of it get, get made up from? Like, this obsessive nature that could actually make you, uh, want to do the extra 1% time and time again.

A big, uh, a big trait is ownership, and that comes down to the forces and the, the forces above you. Yeah, they— if they give you ownership, ownership drives a lot of purpose, I find. And A good example of that is I've worked for clients and I've worked in companies where your work is called white-labeled, which means you can't showcase your work, you can't say you've made it. And those companies where I've worked with that, where you don't get that, you can't show that pride and show what you're doing, that eventually eats you up. Because every, every editing job, especially today, especially in marketing, it's hard work. It's a lot of hours. It's a lot of failure. It's a lot of people saying you're shit. It's a lot of people saying you're good. It's a lot of do this differently, do this differently. It's a lot of people not knowing how long it takes to make this stuff. And if you then can't show off what you've done at the end of it, it just slowly eats at you the entire time. And there, there's been— I mean, I'll admit there's been some really challenging times within every role I've done, but even in this role. And ultimately what stands out from the others is at the end of it when it's released and when I'm tagged in it or people saying this is great, and but I'm not— I'm allowed to showcase it and say it was me and Steve saying it was me and the team is saying well done and sharing it and tagging you, that just instantly realizes it's all worth it. And this is why you're doing it, and this is, this is that purpose that's building you. So if you have ownership over your work, that, that solidifies your purpose because it reminds you of, this is why I'm doing it, this is what the hard work is all worth it, you know. Um, you're not doing this for salary. You think you are, um, for a lot of people, but you're not. There's other ways to make money, and there's a lot of ways to— I mean, there's much better ways to try and get rich or whatever these people want to do. That's not, that's not the drive. And I've worked in companies before where we've had amazing teams, but you still get burnt out and you still feel alone. For me, I think this ownership and everyone in our team has that. If it fails, it's on you. If it's success— if it succeeds, it's on you. And everyone pulls together as a team to make it happen because we know what the stakes are. That drives, that drives a huge amount of passion and purpose.

I think, yeah, it comes down to ultimately understanding that people need to feel heard in a career sense, right? Like, and, and not just, uh, blankly saying that, hey, from the outside looking in, an editor might be someone who doesn't want to be in front of the camera. They might be a bit more reserved. They don't need to be accredited with stuff. But I think that's probably a misconception that, as you're sort of speaking about now, it needs to change and it needs to be more tailored to someone, you know, for their own mental health. And I think, uh, you know, you mentioned that time that you were going through more— some more severe mental health struggles Were you doubting your ability, or were you doubting the, the industry you were in? Like, what was going through your head, and how did you ultimately push through it?

I think it's a mixture of things. Like, the, the, the, the mental health time was a mixture of personal, uh, family, friends, relationships. The struggle of building and running a company. This, like you said, the, the industry and this idea of like you could just do so much, but it's still not doing anything towards that goal. Um, and ultimately, yeah, the— this idea of like the imposter syndrome, that you're not good at what you're doing. And I think it's all of that that then eventually explodes and The difference is, is I still have the imposter syndrome. People who say they don't believe in imposter syndrome, I disagree. I think it very much is a character trait, and I also think it's very much a trait we all need, especially in the creative industries, especially if you're a graduate, because the positives of imposter syndrome is you will try so hard to make it work. You will— because of this fear of me being the world's worst editor, I go out of my way to make sure like every single trailer I make, I'm proud of. If I'm not proud of it, I never want it to go out. So I will, even if it's the night before and there's something I'm not happy with it, I will do what I need to do to make it go out because like I want that pride in my work. And if I don't have that, that just feeds the negative sides of the, of imposter syndrome, which does lead to burnout and, um, negative mental health aspects. So when I was going through that time, I think it was a mixture of all those things, and I still have those things now, but the difference is, is like you're feeding it in a slightly healthier way. And it's like, it's the same thing with relationships, it's the same things with diet, you know. If you eat good food, you feel, you feel refreshed, you feel healthy, you feel active. If you're eating junk food all the time, that, that's just going to tear you down and down and down. You're going to get fatter and fatter, fatter. You're going to get lazier, lazier, lazier. And that drives you into that pit. If you have a great relationship, it's unbelievable how you feel every single day waking up knowing that you're like dating your best friend. If you're in a, like, a toxic relationship or a relationship that you don't want to be in, it just drains you down. It's same— it's the same with careers. If you have that ownership and that purpose, and if you're feeding the imposter syndrome with your healthy traits, it helps you, it guides you, it, it makes you bigger and bigger. If you're in a career where you can't showcase about your work, if you don't feel that your work is doing what you want it to be, if you feel like you're just copying everyone else, if you feel like you're not learning stuff, that's feeding the negative side of your imposter syndrome, which then leads to the mental health problems, etc. I hope—

with my own career journey, I think we had a conversation about school and how detrimental that can be to some people in their career. And I think for me, um, I definitely had like a natural self that I really cared, really gave a shit, was very emotionally, you know, in touch with myself. I would, uh, I'd get upset about a lot of things. And, you know, and I was a really curious guy, and I would always be that person to ask one extra question, um, whether it was stupid or the best question ever. And, um, and I think school kind of like chipped away at that to the point where like it became easier to do be what was accepted, socially accepted. And, and to the point that I arrived at university and like, yeah, UCL's a good uni, sure, but I felt like I didn't— I couldn't actually say with any chest like what my value add would be in a role or in a career. And, and I think that my career journey only really started when I started to think back to my like core true self, like what am I, how could I apply that, how could I harness and cultivate some of those character traits and actually learn what how they could be applied in a career sense, you know. And a podcast has been a great way to do that for me. Um, for you, like, and someone listens to this thinking, oh, okay, I'd like, you know, where you are in your, in your career, and director of the biggest podcast maybe in the world now, right? Like, it's all— it's getting there. Um, what— who is like the, the natural younger Anthony? Like, how can somebody relate or see themselves in you?

Yeah, I mean, the, the amazing thing is I've— like, you sort of grow up and you think like you've changed a lot. The best thing that I've done for me is I've actually tried to go back to my younger self as much as possible, and that is someone who just wants to have fun with the, the work that they're doing. And it's just— so for example, I'm working on a trailer today and the tone of it is completely different to the previous trailer and the previous trailer before that. The music is so different, but I'm choosing that music because obviously I feel like it relates to the guests and, uh, the certain tones, but I'm just having fun with it. And I'm enjoying it. And if it don't work, it don't work, and I'll do it— I'll do it again. But what I'm trying to do most now in my life, and especially in my career, is do what I'd done when I was younger, which was to make time for the people I care about the most, love what I'm doing. When I was a kid, I just loved performing. I never— you always— you would always have this dream of becoming like this actor and being on Hollywood, but the things that I loved the most was them being on stage and actually doing the thing, because I would then go and do it to my, like, my family. I would hold like little shows with my family and, um, that— and the fact that I was doing that wasn't because I was like, oh, Spielberg might be— it might come to one of my fucking birthdays. Obviously that's never gonna happen, so why am I doing this? Why am I putting on a show in front of my family, which is the most cringeworthy thing you can possibly do now. I've done it because I loved it and I loved making people laugh and I loved trying to make people cry and I loved, I loved taking people on this like emotional journey. I get to do that all the time now because I'm doing what my younger self wanted to do, you know, with, with the Dark episodes, all with the trailers I make. It's all about telling a story and making the audience feel something to the point that they want to click on the full episode. That's what I was doing when I was a kid, was to just bring those emotions out. And so I think it's important for people to like reconnect with their younger selves. And, uh, in fact, I literally— I'm posting on Mental Health Awareness Day. I got asked, what would be the advice you'd give to your younger self? And I think that's an exercise that every single person should do and every single graduate should do, especially, is because when you graduate you have that sort of moment of being lost and you feel like you have to become like everyone else who is doing that degree in order to get to where they want to be, or you have to fit in to, to make yourself heard. Think back to why you done the degree in the first place, and then think back even further to when you was like 6 or 7 and you see that kid, you remember what they're doing, and they're asking you for advice. What would you give them to get to that, to get to where you are now? And so I try and do that a lot more now. And that was to have fun and to try and make other people smile and to make other people feel special in a certain way. So, and, and also, this is probably the best bit of advice I can give a graduate coming into this career, and something that weirdly I thought I'd shy away from but now I don't care, is I— at school I was, I was, I was stupid in, in, in a nutshell. My— a lot— I had teachers who literally— this was back in the days where they probably could say that, and they could never say this stuff, but they did— was like, I couldn't tell my ass from my elbows, or Ant's fine because he likes just being Ant, which I never really understood what that was. Naturally, it meant he's not going to do too well in maths because he's not like academically gifted, but just let him sing in the corner, let him do what he wants to do. And now I've embraced the idea that I weren't the smartest person and I'll never be the smartest person. My mates remind me on, on a monthly basis that I once asked them, are humans chicken or beef? In a sense of like, what would we taste like? And things like that. And they remind me, it's like, that's a stupid question. We're not chicken, we're not bit— we're, we're here. And I'm reminded of that monthly.

And so that's what friends are for.

Exactly. And it just reminds me, it's like, you know what, I don't care about asking stupid questions because then that leads to a debate and people are like, oh, but do we taste like— do we taste like lamb? Do it, or Oh crap. Um, and now it's just led me to ask the most stupidest questions I can. Whatever pops into my head, I'll ask that question. I don't care about trying to fit in. I don't want to— like, when I started a company, I'd start wearing suits into an office that only I was in because I felt like wearing a suit was what business owners do. Now I wear tracksuits. Now I just I'm embracing being naive, which a lot of people don't want to show as being. Everyone, graduates searching for a job, everyone wants to look like they've got their head screwed on. Yeah, that, um, they're the most desirable person because they're smart, funny, well suited, they're all this. But the reality of it is you just want to be as human as you can and as naive as you can and ask the stupid questions. And I don't know that much about editing. A lot of it, a lot of the technical shit I've made up as I've had to figure out how to do stuff. Um, and I'll still say I'm not the best editor. I still don't think I'm that great of an editor. And, um, whenever I do a speaking or a panel event and I'm with editors, I'm like, Jesus, like, these people are talking about certain buttons and all this shit. I don't know what that is. Like, I just call it the finger majig and press it and it works and it looks so good. And it's like, um, but it's all those naive questions that I've asked and I've wondered that made me into research, which has made me create the skill set that I have today.

And these revelations that you've had in your career, I, I sometimes get a bit existential thinking about how can I find out things and truths that'll be helpful to me, like, before I actually get, like, slapped in the face by the, like, having to actually make the learnings. And, you know, I wonder the sort of experience you've had, do you think it's kind of a you have to go through it and learn it yourself or it will never really, like, ring true? Or, you know, especially, you know, listen to so many episodes, Darius, you know, like, do you think that you being more of a sponge now and, like, just hearing other people is sort of preparing you more for these revelations?

100%. It's, um, at the biggest— and this is a huge thing of what I massively disagree with the school system— is this idea of failure is bad. And because of that, we have created generations, myself included, who believe if you fail, you suck, and you're in the wrong. And it's taken me so long to— even to this day, I've still not mastered it. It's this idea that if you fail, it's okay, because the lessons you learn when you fail, you bring them in and you work on it, and it gets better and better and better. You know, with, for example, there'll, there'll be assets of a trailer that Steve don't like, and he will message me or come over and speak to me and he'll say what he didn't like, why he didn't like it. Some of them I fight back and I give my opinion and it's sometimes it changes his opinion. Sometimes what he says, I can instantly go like, oh yeah, you're right. And then I change it. And then if you look at the how the trailers have sort of developed over the 2 and a half years, the first trailer is dogshit compared to what it is now. And that is literally because— am I allowed to swear on this? Yeah, of course. And that is because the lessons that I've got here are like— if you imagine this idea of a 1% per trailer that, you know, Jack and Steve basically said to try and implement into your work, those 1% lessons which are taken from failure and testing, that's— I've made well over 240-odd trailers now, so that's all I mean, even if it was just one thing every trailer, and usually it's multiple, but even if it was one thing, that's 240+ lessons and teachings taken just from this one part of my career. Now everything from the other part of the career, meeting big names in the industry and actors and directors, how, how I like move around them and speak to them sort of people taught me like the social skills. And like, you know what, you can't speak to everyone the exact same. You have to sort of adapt to how and read the room and things like that, you know. And it's, um, I ultimately— a lot of that comes from fate, comes from failure. I remember one of my biggest things was I, um, I got a freelance gig filming a band. I'm gonna say the band's name because I didn't know them at the time. They were called The Vamps.

Oh yeah.

And I had no idea who they were because that's not my sort of music and I'm older than them, etc. And I was just filming and the questions I was asking them was almost like they were just like this high school band performing in like these dingy little clubs. And at— to the extent, at the end the manager came, spoke to me and said like, uh, yeah, some of the questions you asked, then they're not allowed to talk about that. You shouldn't— you shouldn't speak to these people about this sort of thing. And I felt awful. And then I went back and then I researched who they were and I was like, oh shit, these are quite a big band. I learned that day to do my research into any— anytime I was filming a guest, like call it a guest, um, do research into them because they could be like one of the biggest names that you just never heard of. And then from that you learn— you can learn things about how you approach them, what you talk about, whether they like small talk, whether they don't like small talk. And so you soak all this knowledge up and then you sort of have this— you start building like all these different skill sets and social skills that you can just move around and be comfortable in those situations. Um, but it was failing to acknowledge this band which is what made me realize, add an extra step into my freelance career, and that then led to me getting bigger and bigger clients because of the way I approached them and spoke to them, etc. But I think too many people are scared to go through those lessons and will try anything to not learn those lessons. And that's when you're sort of staying put. And I personally don't agree with that. I think just do, just do, learn, fail, learn again. But if you're adamant on that, obviously I'm lucky in my job that I get to listen to so many different experts on so many different topics and soaking all those elements in has just been a game changer for me.

Something you said before the podcast which I found interesting to hear is that when it came to actually, you know, getting into Dark, for example, you didn't think you're a good interviewer, or like you're not your traditional, um, you know, let's say corporate, like, interview-trained person. Um, but yet you are— your job is storytelling, which is really what interviews are. It's, you know, telling a story, making someone believe that you're the right person for that role, to be in that company. For you, like, what, what is, you know, if not for an interview, what is great storytelling? I know you do it in your, your trailers all the time, but how can a person apply your same concept for trailers to make themselves, like, captivating in a career sense?

Ultimately Being a, being a good storyteller, when you're, when you're talking, when you're talking to someone, it's— I would say the biggest thing is to be as open as possible. And the reason why I say that and how that relates to storytelling is because I'm not afraid anymore to go to talk about my past or to talk about aspects of my life like mental health, because that is me as a, as a story, and people can relate to those aspects. I'm not the only person to go through depression. I'm not the only person to be popping pain antidepressants. You know, so many people have gone, gone through that stage, but then they, they won't talk about that per se, and it gets pushed under the rug. And they try and— they try and tell a story with all these missing elements in it, and that's when a story fails. And so when it comes to presenting yourself and whether you're interviewing or giving a speech or applying for a job, be open and be curious and just realize that your story is supposed to have the highs and the lows. And I'd done a LinkedIn post the other day where it's literally a sound wave of one of my trailers, and the idea is like it's this emotional roller coaster. You want to take your audience on emotional roller coaster when you're telling a story because that is the reflection of life. And that is because your life goes up, it goes down, it has a loop, it goes side to side, it has a sudden drop, it goes slow, then it speeds up. And ultimately, if that's what people relate to— anyone who has like this nice smooth life, this nice smooth career, this nice smooth experience they're not as interesting to talk to because oftentimes you feel like, well, where have you failed? Where have you learned? Where— what, what makes you— where's your experience? You know, all of this sort of, all of this sort of thing that builds us as a character. And so when we present ourselves, my— I, I feel like everyone should have a personal brand. I just don't like saying it because I don't know, I don't know why. It's just this weird thing in my thing where it's like, oh, I'm building a personal— yeah, yeah, yuck.

Um, but it's more just your online reputation, isn't it?

Like, yeah, exactly.

And it's personal branding.

Yeah. And it— I still find it a bit strange because obviously it's, again, it's the imposter syndrome thing. It's like, who am I to talk about my work? Like, but then you sort of come to this realization, it's like building your personal brand is being open enough to tell your story. And so When I do post on LinkedIn, I'll talk about the highs and the lows and the failures that I learned from a narrative and from feedback and all of this sort of thing. And that in itself is drawing emotions and making people realize and making people act. So ultimately, to be a good storyteller, be as open as you can, connect with yourself in that story as much as you can, and realize that you don't have to fit into a certain category to, to do what you need to do. There are ways that you can become successful, there are ways to get your dream career, there's ways to do all this being yourself. You just need to sort of take experiences and fill this sort of skill bucket along the way.

Yeah, I think it's a really important thing for any graduate listening to, to realize that I think in interviews you think that you kind of have to spew out your achievements. And yeah, it's like kind of like a dick measuring contest, like, yeah, why, why do you deserve to be in this room? But I think you have to kind of become comfortable with the fact that you should be in that room, you deserve to be in it. And that actually being vulnerable, yeah, it makes you more compelling. Not, not— it doesn't like shine you in a negative or bad light. It actually probably gives you a better opportunity at getting that job because it's unique and, and refreshing. And I think Yeah, so the next stage of this question then is, um, you might have put your best foot forward and got that, the offer for the job, but I think the other part is students actually understanding who they're going to be working for, like, you know, really sensing whether it's going to be the right fit for them and that person has your best interests, um, in your career. And so with, with Deloitte, obviously you mentioned the great culture, and I've interviewed other team members and you all sort of talk about this empowerment that you get and, you know, this lack of micromanagement, all these bad red flags that can exist within, um, company culture. What, what was it, you know, from those initial interviews, you know, when you were just starting out as a trailer editor, that really felt that this was the right place for you to be, be working in?

A lot of it, a lot of it started with Jack. So Jack is the producer of The Diver CEO, and he, he's been there from the very start, you know, like with him and Steve in a kitchen building this thing. And he, he's actually a really great example of someone who doesn't— he doesn't shout about himself at all. He very rarely posts anything, and but And it all— it then comes down to like Steve will shout him out and, and he— it's just that's not his thing. His focus is on different things, but what he's done is incredible. Like, he's, he's like pioneered a way a podcast is made, is shot, is distributed, and he was there from the very start. And this is someone— and he's not come from a background of building podcasts or like from a huge company, media company. He started as a freelancer and he worked, he worked his way up and he learned along the way. And he still blows my mind when, when we first went to New York to do our first overseas filming gig, um, where we was actually building a studio and It was me, him, and just one other builder rebuilding the Doak Studio in about— I think it was like 3 days— in time for one of our biggest guests that we ever had on was coming on. We'd run out of wallpaper. We didn't realize we only had one strip to fill the entire studio, so we was panicking on how we can do that. Things were falling down, things were being bought from like IKEA. Just right, we arrived, we didn't realize it, but New York was doing Thanksgiving at the time. And yeah, didn't realize, in fact, as opposed to like the UK, everything shuts on Thanksgiving. Like, no one's doing anything. So everywhere was shut. So we lost time on that. And what he was doing was just this perfect out-of-the-box thinking. He was using his previous work experience when he was like, I think he was like working in the construction or as a joiner to build things. He'd buy one mirror and then we'd go to a DIY store and he'd find like these little magnets to recreate the Doak mirror. All of these tiny things just to make it look as close as possible to this dark studio. And that, that's the sort of person he is, and that's the sort of person that Steve hired, not only with Jack, but then you had like with Grace Andrews, and then you had it with, um, Ross and Gem and Grace Miller and Liv and all of these people growing, and Dom and Sophie, all these people who just care so much. And it doesn't matter that you're not the most experienced person ever. Like I said, Jack didn't come from a podcast media background, and ultimately it's this desire and this urgency within the team to get things done the best to our ability and to learn from it. And that's what really drew me— that's what kept me there. Obviously, you don't really know that stuff when you're applying, but it was— Jack was the first person I met because he interviewed me, and it was supposed to be a 10-minute, 20-minute interview over Zoom on New Year's Eve, I think it was, and it turned into a 2-hour chat. And it was just me and him talking for 2 hours about this podcast. I think he still says it's the longest interview he's ever done. Um, but after that, you just felt so good. By the end of it, I can't even remember what we spoke about, but you— we just felt really good about it all. And when you're then there, we've gone through challenging times, and you just pick yourselves up as a team. And if you didn't have that team, you— there were times when you'd sort of be within your right to leave, but that team just brings you back in, and it reminds you of what, what what you're doing and why you're doing it. And so I owe so much to that team. Like, I've learned so much from them. They've helped me become, I think, a much better person. And why wouldn't I want to work with a team that makes you feel like that?

You mentioned in that answer that, uh, the, the producer was able to call on some experience he'd done when he was younger that was definitely not like directly correlated with his role as a, as a producer. But, and I wonder, uh, for yourself if there was anything that, you know, isn't— wasn't on your LinkedIn or something you did when you were younger that you think was particularly formative for you? Because I think sometimes people forget how like even quite menial and seeming— seemingly unimportant roles when you're younger can actually shape yourself as a person or the skill set you have now.

Yeah, it's probably, it's probably a few. So not a lot of people knew that I, as a kid, all I would do is write one-page little short stories, and they're probably crap. I mean, they're written by a kid, they're terrible. But from that young age, what I, what you don't realize is I was in the world of storytelling when I was a little kid. And I was writing beginning, middle, and ends, and I was writing cliffhangers, and I was writing tense, and I was trying to write funny stories.

And it was just a dream. It was just a dream.

You wake up and it was all a dream. Oh, it starts with once upon a time, and, and you're given all this content, and you're— so that— people always ask me, how do you become a good storyteller? How do you learn to tell stories? And that's why one of the biggest pieces of advice I give is just like, again, is be that sponge. But watch as many trailers, watch as many shows, read as many books as you can, because they're all telling stories. And you're— it's, it's somewhere in here. You just then have to find the way to unleash it. So there was that. I think being a massive attention seeker when I was a kid probably helped, um, essentially because I loved the idea of entertaining people and now that's what I do. If I hate— if I was like this quiet kid who weren't sociable, wanting to put on a performance, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today because I wouldn't care about people's feelings as much. I care so much about how I want to make people feel with each trailer. That's why I put so much effort into it. Um, any other skill sets? Singing. So I don't— this is going back to the performing arts days, singing and dance, because, um, it ultimately means that you're— again, it comes back to this emotion piece and telling this narrative. And but when great singers take you somewhere and make you feel something, and I'm one of those really weird people who, like, if I'm walking into work and I've got a particular song on it might start making me cry, and like, I'm just bawling on my way to work. And that's— I'm like, not to sound too weird, but it's like the music— not to say the music gets you, but it's like the music makes me feel something. And that's because that's what I used to do as a kid. I just always used to sing, and I used to just listen to music all the time. And musicals— I love musicals. And that's all I would listen to is like all this sort of classical, classical music. And, and, um, so that sort of led to me feeling this emotion, and it's like, okay, now when I create trailers, I want my entire sound design without dialogue to do the exact same thing.

Yeah, I'm so jealous of your ability to do that because I also, like, you know, I'll listen to a song, this would be like the trailer of my life. Like, I'll visualize what it could look like, and I'll have no ability or skill to make it into a product. But it must be a cool feeling to let music actually dictate, you know, your, your creative output, right?

100%. And it's just— it— and even if it's not directly involved in the trailers, there's been loads of times where I'm really frustrated because I can't find the track to go into, and I'll go off. And there was one actually when, um, and again, this is thanks to Steve and Georgie, but I was really struggling with a trailer with music. Nothing was working, and the reality was I was overthinking it. But then that night we all went to go and see the MJ musical in Soho, and just sitting back listening to Michael Jackson's songs and the dancing and the choreography and how I felt— the next day I found music like that because I completely changed the entire way I was going to tell that trailer through the music. And so for me, just listening to music just frees, frees my mind to do that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, ultimately, who— again, the naivety, um, me being an idiot when I was a kid and not being smart, um, that turned into one of my biggest skill sets because I focused, I think, on the things that I loved the most, and that was essentially what I do now.

And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off your career journey graduating from Lancashire, you would have had a certain idea of what success might look like to you. And then fast forward with everything you've achieved and learned along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Uh, my definite— my definition of success is if, if your needs now supply the wants of your future is how I define success now. So when I think about what I want and I'm pretty certain what I want now, I want a loving relationship, um, ideally with Helena. I want to be with her for the rest of my life. I want kids, I want a house, and I also want to feel pride in my work. I don't— I— there's been times in my life where I've gone, sod it, I'm just gonna get a normal 9-to-5, I don't care about— and it's been Helena, my mum and dad, who have been like, no, you'll hate this, just persevere, persevere, and it's worked. And so they're the things that I really want in the future. So now it's my idea of success is what do I need to do now in order to get those wants in the future? So to be with Helena for the rest of my life, for to have it and to have those kids, I need to make sure that the relationship works, and that means keep working on it and being as present as I can with her and being the person who she like, who she ultimately wanted to be with and the person who like got with her in the first place, that sort of person. So I don't want to change in that sense, you know, the need for things like a house and to have a family. Obviously, I need to work hard now to build up so I can afford a house, so I can afford to have kids. And afford to— and I need to get myself in a position where when I have kids, I can be in a position where I can spend more time with them and be present with them. And so their lifestyle needs that I'm also working on now. So if that for me is my definition of success, is when your needs of today lead to your wants in the future. No idea if that makes sense. As I said, naive. But that's, that's how I sort of see it. I always go back to the people on their deathbed, and it's the final question is, are you happy and do you have regrets and things like that. That, that's enough to keep me up at night, is this idea of being on your deathbed and not being happy. And it sort of then it becomes a system of how you work it out, um, because things don't fall on your lap. You have to work hard for the things you really want. So it's just about prioritizing those things.

Antti, thanks so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you for having me.