Antonio Zappulla, CEO @ Thomson Reuters Foundation

Hello everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today I'm joined by Antonio. He is the CEO of Thomson Reuters Foundation. Welcome to the show, Antonio.

Thank you, Charlie. Thank you for having me.

So much for coming on. I guess the perfect place to start would be to give a bit of insight into how you found yourself being the CEO of the company that you work for today.

Uh, I've been working at Thomson Reuters for over 12 years, uh, and I did start at the foundation as the director of communications, uh, and then I became the director of strategy and communications, then I became the COO, and then I took over as CEO 6 years ago, that feels like 60.

Amazing. How have you found it so far being CEO?

It's an incredible journey, and I think nothing really prepares you for being a CEO because the dynamics at stake are so different, so many. I also took over just before COVID and so my first board meeting was actually during COVID during a lockdown. And I remember going into the board meeting and thinking, I don't know if I'm going to be having a job or even if the organization will exist in the near future. And really nothing prepares you for that. I mean, you can do 5 MBAs and then finally you get the job and you need to lock down. We locked down, I think, shortly after I took— like, I took over in November and then by March we're already in lockdown. Wow.

Wow, that's quick. And in terms of that, I think something that a lot of students will be able to resonate with that story and with that journey is the feeling of uncertainty. A lot of students will go through that time and time again throughout their journey. What did you learn about that period, about how you can deal better with uncertainty?

I think adaptability, it's, it's key, and moving at pace is key. I mean, I started my career in television, in live television, and I think what I learned from that experience is something that, again, you, you can't even learn on an MBA, because it's the ability to— having to take decisions on the spot. Like, I used to— so before, prior to Thomson Reuters, I used to work at Bloomberg, and I worked at Bloomberg Television, live television. So I used to be a presenter on their Italian channel, and then I became a producer producer and then an executive producer. And throughout those 3 roles that I, that I, that I covered, you really need to be able to take decisions on the spot. When you're live and the teleprompter goes down, you need to keep on going. You know, they're not going to stop the slot until the commercial break. So you need to be able to go to live markets and know what you're talking about. If you are a producer, and I used to be in the live gallery, and again, there's, I don't know, the markets move because there's a bomb or there's a terrorist attack. You know, I was covering, you know, the terrorist attack in London and the market's completely moved, you need to be able to cover that. And if you planned your story, you know, the rest of the hour, you know, everything goes to the trash and you need to be able to liaise with your colleagues, get colleagues on the air. Like, and to a certain extent, the COVID experience did remind me of that, the ability to have to take decisions on the spot there and then.

Is there any kind of— I guess it's hard because it's such an immediate decision to have that, but is there any frameworks, any kind of mechanisms you use to be able to to make those fast impulse decisions?

I guess you need to be able to prioritize. You need to be able to somehow picture in your brain what the consequences of your actions might be. Uh, because if you look at the whole lot, uh, at the same time, it's going to be so daunting that could become paralyzing, right? You need to be able to say, okay, deep breath, what are we going to be doing next and what are we going to be doing after that? And it's being able to work with team members that are able to think along those lines and to you know, to move at the same pace as you, that is really critical.

No, that makes a lot of sense. It's almost like breaking things down to a point where it's actually a bit more manageable. Exactly. No, 100% makes sense. Um, I think that's great advice. And in terms of your day-to-day, then I imagine that it changes a lot, and every week and every day will probably be quite different. But could you walk through our listeners a bit of a kind of typical day in the life as a CEO?

I mean, honestly, the honest answer is that there isn't a typical day, right? I mean, you, you wake up to a text message and there's been some crisis that you need to jump on. Also, the nature of the work that we do is pretty complex. We have a newsroom within the organization. We also do a lot of capacity building for journalists in different parts of the world. You know, our journalists might be arrested because they're covering a story. So you might, I mean, you wake up to a story where a journalist might have been threatened covering a story, or there are legal issues that obviously result from, you know, we need to consult lawyers for the kind of investigative reporting that we do. That's only the newsroom. Then we have a legal team that provides pro bono legal assistance to NGOs. And, you know, that is at times challenging work as well. Then there is managing, you know, the organization. At the moment, we have a short of 300 people in over 34 countries. So there are employment issues, hiring, you know, changing the organization. I mean, I really completely transformed the organization in the past 5 years. So you deal— I mean, I guess your main stakeholders are internally, obviously, your team, your immediate team, which is the people that you manage and reporting to you, but also obviously their teams and the issues that might arise in those teams. You then have the board that you're reporting to, and we are a corporate foundation, so I also have obviously to take into account Thomson Reuters, which is our main donor. And then there is external donors. I mean, we are funded by institutional donors such as the US government, the UK government, the Norwegian government, you know, donors such as Apple or Microsoft. So you need to be the face of the organization for the donors and have a grasp of what the projects that you're delivering are to be able to have an informed conversation with them. So it's— it really varies because if you put all those things in the mix, you might be having a bad day where you deal with all of them.

Yeah.

Or you might be getting samples of them. Uh, it's, it's, it's really unpredictable.

The interesting thing about that is it all comes back down to that adaptability again, because I guess to be able to do the job you're doing, you need to be able to adapt on the spot and you need to be able to switch context very quickly and kind of manage that without becoming too overwhelmed, right?

And you learn that. I mean, you definitely learn. I mean, I can tell you, I, I definitely feel more at ease in this role than I was for the first 2 years, even removing the COVID uh, nightmare, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's normal. I mean, it's like learning to drive, you know. You get on a highway, the first time you're gonna freak out, and then suddenly you're gonna be able to understand that even if you're going at 60 miles an hour, you can still feel safe and in control. It's a similar experience. It's very difficult to it's really difficult to explain, but it's, it's like learning how to swim. You, you get better and better.

So in terms of students that are listening that maybe think, okay, in the future I want to be a CEO, I want to be a leader of an organization, I guess the best way they can start to build up that skill and that experience is just by throwing themselves into the deep end almost and trying to get as much experience in managing teams and leading kind of projects maybe as they possibly can, so they can build up that, that kind of, I guess, experience with, with those, with those situations.

I would say just get to an office. Okay. You know, I, I, I appreciate that you want to have the flexibility of working remotely, and I'm the first one— I'm going away for a month to work remotely from Italy, right? I mean, and everybody does that in the, in the company. We have a policy where everybody can work remotely for a month, but you need to show face, uh, not just because it's— you have to, but because it's, it's absolutely to your advantage. You need to be able to learn by looking at the dynamics around you, learning from your teams, even by watching how they deal with crisis, with emergencies, understand how they delegate, uh, to understand what makes them really worried or, you know, how they're able to solve problems, understanding how to interact. I mean, it's emotional intelligence one-on-one.

Yeah.

And you can't have that experience if you're working remotely. So I think the journey to become a leader starts by interacting with other people face to face and then learning from them, learning from them.

Amazing. I think that's amazing.

You might find out that it's not for you. You don't want to deal with people's issues. You just want to be doing your thing and you're comfortable in that. And there is nothing wrong.

But I guess it gives you that chance, actually.

It gives you the chance to understand where you are most comfortable and best at.

Amazing. And in terms of your own journey then, you mentioned that you started off in a newsroom, you then progressed internally at Thomson Reuters so far. Um, could you walk through the listeners a bit more about your journey and kind of how you got to this point? Were there any key steps along the way, other roles that you worked in that you feel like have massively influenced your career trajectory?

So I've always wanted to work in news, in media, and I am a media junkie. Like, I mean, I read news 24/7. I got 100 million alerts. I can't sleep at night because my phone pings because I'm subscribed from news outlets from Asia to Latin America, right? So I do love news. I mean, I love the thrill of being on top of the news. So I've always wanted to work in media. So I started with— I'm Sicilian, so I was born in Sicily, and I started working in radio and TV stations there. And then I did my undergraduate here in the UK, and at the end of the second year, they offered me to either do an internship here in the UK or elsewhere, and I said, actually, I want to go to Italy. Well, you know, can I sort out my, my, my own internship? They said, yes, sure, go for it. Because my plan was to go back to Italy with, with, you know, with a university degree in the UK, which obviously is quite, quite prestigious, or at least was at the time. Um, so I, I arranged myself to have an internship, and I was at ANSA, which is the leading Italian news agency. And I was there during, during 9/11, uh, and half the— I was at the foreign desk and half the foreign desk was away on holiday because, you know, Italians take long holidays in September. The weather is still nice and people are off. And so I was there during 9/11 and, um, I was fluent in English because I, you know, I've been fluent in English since I was 6. And so I started covering this story perhaps at a level that an intern would have not been able to because there was such a shortage of staff. So they needed all hands on deck. And so I started to translate Reuters and and other newswires, AP and CNN, and I worked for 17 hours nonstop, and they offered me a contract the following day. And I was still a student, so I was at the second year of my university, so essentially I convinced my university to let me finish my last year splitting into two years, and I was living in Rome at the time, because I moved to Rome, and I was coming back just to do exams. And then ANSA had a news partnership with Bloomberg, with the Italian channel of Bloomberg, and then I was essentially doing all these news inserts for them because nobody else wanted to do them because they weren't paid extra. And, you know, I've done TV and radio all my life, so I said, yeah, I'll do them. And then after 3 months, Bloomberg offered me a job in London. So I came back to the UK, started working at Bloomberg when I was 21. I was on air at the age of 21, which was crazy and so much fun. I used to go clubbing on a Sunday night when at the time you could still smoke in clubs, and then I would just go on air at like 7 o'clock on a Monday morning. And I started my career that way.

Amazing. I think there's, there's two really interesting kind of, I guess, learnings from that that I take away. The first is, in terms of your time during 9/11, the thing that allowed you to get that opportunity was just having the skill of being fluent in English. And I think it's something I always recommend to other students that ask me, okay, how do I get this opportunity? How do I get— enter into this industry? And all I say is just build up as many skills as you can, because even if it doesn't directly seem like it might be relevant, you never know where that skill can take you and what doors that can open. And then the second of it is actually just taking any opportunity you can. With Bloomberg, for example, you took an opportunity that a lot of other people weren't willing to, and that was probably very influential in your career, right?

You know what, on both occasions, so both the ANSA experience, which was 9/11, and the Bloomberg, um, the, you know, the fact that I was filling in for, you know, essentially every hour we would just provide a general news, um, update from Rome. I wasn't really doing it because I was expecting something at the end, generally. I mean, this is a genuine answer. Like, I was doing it because I thought, that's great, that's a great experience, it's fun, uh, you know, when is it going to happen again that I'm going to be covering a major world story, uh, this way? So I wasn't doing it because I, I wanted something to be coming out of it. I just thought, let me, you know, I, I, I like to throw myself into the mix, and that's, that, that was the genuine thing to do. And actually it did pay off. And, and I, I go back to my point about going into the office, work in an office because I was rewarded for, you know, for taking those opportunities, because clearly somebody saw the way I approached those opportunities, the way I was dedicated to doing those things. And so somebody saw me doing that and decided to give me another opportunity on the back of it.

Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. I think it's exactly like you said, you have to be present, right? You have to be there for people to notice you. In terms of throughout your career, I'm sure, as, as I've already done multiple times, I'm sure there's many times that you've made a mistake. Could you kind of share some of the biggest, or maybe the biggest mistake you've made throughout your career and what you felt like you learned from that?

I think it's not listening to my gut feeling, uh, and I'm not saying this just to give myself a pat on the back and basically say I'm always right, but I do have a gut feeling. I think everybody has it, whether it's more, uh, I don't know, more, uh, evident or, uh, or more latent. I definitely have a stronger feeling. Like, I shake your hand and I get a vibe from somebody, like, right away. And at the beginning, you know, when— at the beginning of my career as a CEO you know, you— there's so much that comes at you, and at times I just say, yeah, okay, well, let's take a chance on this. And it always came back to bite me back, always. Uh, and now I'm really acutely in tune with my gut feeling, and at times I will do things that might not make immediate sense, and actually it's very rewarding to see that those decisions that at times are based on gut did reward me.

That's very interesting. I think it's often the case, actually, people in more senior positions always say this as well. And I think as a student it can sometimes be— or as a younger person and a more inexperienced person in general, it can be harder to, I think, trust your gut because you feel like, okay, but what is my gut based off? I don't have enough experience to base it up. But even so, you often realize that actually just trusting your gut takes you a lot further.

It is. I think, and again, it goes back to the level of emotional intelligence, right? You need to, you need to know in a way or another. And at times the facts that present— that are presented in front of you might tell you a different stories. So it's about digging more. If you know, don't take anything at face value. If you, if your gut feeling tells you that there might be something fishy that you want to, that you want to consider. And then the other thing I would say is it's finding a balance between listening and saying, no, we're doing it this way. And, and, you know, maybe you, you can tell from, you know, we just met half an hour ago, but I, I, you know, I, I, I don't run the organization as the supreme leader. Like, I like to talk to people, I like to engage and listen, but at times you need to be able to say I heard you, but we're going to be doing it this way whether you like it or not.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and it's fine, but again, it's a fine line to, to find.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And so then, in terms of, in terms of the, the Thomson Reuters Foundation, could you give the listeners a bit more insight into what is that you guys do?

Uh, so we've got 3 main areas of work. Uh, the first one is the resilience of independent media, the second one is called access to law, and the third one is called responsible business. So We are the corporate foundation of a major company called Thomson Reuters, which is a technology company that provides content to a lot of professionals, including lawyers and tax and accountants and also news professionals because of Reuters. And we essentially take those skills and if you want to, we just give it a philanthropic spin. So our news work, we work with news organizations mostly in the Global South. We bolster their resilience and the standards of independent media because we believe in free, fair, and informed societies. And we believe that you cannot have a free, fair, and informed society if the media is not independent and if the legal justice is not fair. The second pillar of our work, in fact, tackles that. So we provide free legal assistance to NGOs and civil society organizations and provide legal research that helps changing laws and policy on the ground. And then we work with corporates and investors, and we allow corporates to voluntarily disclose, data around sustainability, mostly that pertain to their human capital, and then sell that data to investors that make better investment decisions based on that data. So our major stakeholders are obviously journalists, lawyers, uh, civil society organizations, uh, corporates, uh, and investors.

I love that. I think a lot of our students will love that as well. So I think nowadays younger people are coming more and more conscious of the purpose of a company, what a company does, and if the values of that company really align with them before they make decisions about their career. And so I know a lot of students will be wondering, a lot of young people wondering, does Thomson Reuters Foundation offer entry-level roles, graduate roles, internships, that type of stuff?

So we used to work— we used to offer internships much more. Since COVID that has become challenging because the, you know, staff members come to the office. I would say from— I mean, I go 4 days a week, my directors come in 3 days a week, and then depending on the level and seniority, everybody comes in at least twice a week. So an internship, again, for the idea that I mentioned earlier about coming back to work, at times it's challenging to deliver effectively. But we certainly have entry-level positions. Our programs team is the program— is a team that delivers all the programmatic work. We start from officers, and those are, you know, people that can learn to become then senior officers and then managers and senior project managers. There's a lot of project management skills that we need. A lot of technology and product skills that we need right now. So if you code, if you know how to use Python, definitely we like you. You know, product work has been something that we've been developing aggressively in the past 5 years. So product, project management skills, accounting skills, you know, we have a big finance team. You know, we work with major multimillion dollar grants every year that obviously is public money. So you need to report against this. So you need to have strong accounting skills as well. The comms team keeps on growing. The legal team keeps on growing.

So Yes, the answer is a lot of—

there's a lot of opportunities. Just keep an eye on the website that we are rebuilding.

Yeah, no, I love that. And so in terms of why graduates should consider, consider your organization, I think we've already kind of touched on a few of them in terms of the benefits, like the ability to work remotely and stuff. But yeah, what would you say the key reasons why graduates should consider working for your organization?

I think it's the purpose, right? I mean, our, our mission statement is that we were to foster free, fair, and informed societies. And I think the relevance of our mission in today's world. It's very obvious. And again, it's the ability to be able to contribute to a more independent media, to a stronger legal framework, the ability to, you know, to make the world a better place, to use a horrible cliché, but it is exactly what we do. And also this idea, you know, we are a corporate foundation, so we are technically registered as an independent charity. We are an independent charity registered in the UK and in the US. But because we are a corporate foundation, you get a feel of working in an NGO that is not a classic and traditional NGO. I mean, it's— we are pretty corporate in the way we work. I mean, the way we do things, the way, you know, it's— we're a very professional, uh, NGO to a certain extent. So you, in a way, you get the best of both worlds.

You get that kind of somewhat of a corporate— I mean, I don't like to say corporate— corporate experience of working in a bigger company, as well as the kind of smaller almost exactly a team as well.

Yeah, I mean, we, we are a team of 300 people, but essentially we're not a team of 3,000 people, right? But I often say that— I often describe the work that we do with the expression international development because it's essentially what we do. And so as an international development organization, you will have opportunities to, to engage with colleagues around. I mean, our second biggest team— I mean, the biggest team out of London is in Kenya, in Nairobi. We go close to 30 people in Nairobi. We go staff in DC, in New York, in Manila, in Bogotá, in Brussels, in New York, literally all across the map. So there is also an element of, you know, being part of a global entity. I would say being part of a very diverse organization. I mean, if you look at my leadership team, it's very, very diverse. There is a 50-50, you know, gender split in the organization in terms of senior leadership, in terms of diversity. I mean, I'm openly gay. There is a lot. I mean, 90% of the people that work for us, they feel that they belong to the organization. We have— we take these stats very very seriously.

That's amazing. I think you've already kind of alluded to this as well, but you mentioned the fact that you don't want to be this kind of authoritarian leader. You want to speak to people, you want to collaborate. I guess that's the culture you're trying to kind of implement within Thomson Reuters Foundation. Is there any other elements of the culture that you're particularly proud of?

I think being able to— I mean, I had a junior member of staff that came into my, into my office yesterday discussing something personal that she wanted to discuss with me, and I think that's I'm pretty proud of that. I mean, I, I love the fact that people feel that they can come to me. It's obviously at times a double-edged sword because you don't want people to come to your desk with stuff that really their managers or the manager's managers should be managing. But I love the fact that somebody in my team feels I can go and talk to Antonio, like it's, it's, it's possible, right? The door is open. So I think there is definitely that element of, of openness, uh, and approachability. There is definitely an element of, uh, listening. I feel A lot of decision-making for the big things is done involving people at different seniority levels when needed. But, you know, it's not a top-down organization to begin with. It's also a very global organization. I mean, when we got colleagues coming from Nairobi and other parts of the world, it feels, you know, it's a great feeling. And you can be learning things around the world just by visiting colleagues somewhere else. So I think I would say definitely openness is the key value for the organization.

No, I love that. And in terms of the landscape as a whole, the media, the media world, how do you see that changing with the, with AI? And how do you see kind of, I guess, the internal workings of your organization also changing?

I wish, I, I really wish I could tell you.

I mean, it's, uh, obviously, yeah, it's, it's completely kind of, it's, it's a massive journey that's just, uh, that's just begun.

And I think it's, uh, you can look at it from two perspectives, right? One could be you're petrified and you think the world is going to come to an end, or you feel and you think that this is actually going to be changing things for good. In general, I tend to stay in the middle of the equation. Uh, I think there is a— there are a lot of opportunities for big news organizations. I'm thinking of Reuters, but also our news organization. We have a newsroom within the foundation that is independent from Reuters. And definitely I would say translation is a massive opportunity, right? You don't have to pay translator anymore to translate something in, in, you know, in decent standards. So that obviously creates massive opportunities for distribution. SEO optimization is another really good opportunity to make sure that your content gets picked up by, by the distributors of news, Google obviously being the first one. There are also opportunities— sorry— to customize content for different viewers and different readers. So speaking to a certain segment of your demographic in terms of readership to make sure that the, the story that you are serving them, it's customized in a way that they want to read it. That is obviously an element of automation that is fantastic and welcome. There are, although, massive risks and opportunities that you need to look into when it comes to copyright issues, obviously impact on labor. People need to be retrained to use those tools. But having, you know, a human-centric approach, so, you know, a human in the loop that is in charge of the editorial process is absolutely paramount. Yeah, I think it's a different conversation for smaller newsrooms. The ones that we actually work with, because from, from one level, I think they are really eager to capitalize on the innovation and automation that AI is able to produce. But at the same time, the pressure on revenue models is going to be even stronger. I mean, we are working with newsrooms in countries where the paywall, it's not even happening. People just consume their news on WhatsApp. So it's, it's a, it's a conversation that has to be localized, cannot happen. You know, it's not a one-size-fits-all conversation. It really does depend whether you are you are a small community radio station in Kenya or whether you are Reuters or CNN, right? It will vary greatly.

Changes depend on where you are. And I think it again comes back to the adaptability. I think we found the title for the episode for sure. Um, but yeah, in terms of then the application process, in terms of students that may be listening to this thinking, okay, I'm 100% applying to this organization, what advice would you give them about how they can maybe stand out in their application and make it more likely they'll be successful?

Well, I will say first of Spell the name of the organization right. There is no P in Thomson Reuters. The amount of CVs that go in the trash because we see a P, even if you have an Oxford graduate, I can tell you I stopped counting. So there's no P in Thomson Reuters to begin with. So that means do your research whether you apply for Thomson Reuters Foundation or any other organization. Do your research and it starts with the name of the company. I would say I personally don't care when I read in a CV that you like gardening or swimming because, you know, we're not going to be doing gardening and swimming at the organization. So tell me who you really are. And why you really want that job. I think the covering letter is really important, and the covering letter is not a replica of your CV. I can read your CV, I know where you graduated, but tell me why you are the best person for the role and make sure that your passion, you know, uh, becomes really evident through, through especially the covering letter.

Interesting. So in terms of the COVID letter then, I guess, what would a student include there that's different from their CV? Because I think a lot of students, when they think about their application, they think the most important thing is always the experience, but obviously that's already covered in the CV. So what would you then suggest they include in that cover letter?

I think the COVID letter is a pitch. Okay, right. So why are you the best person for the role? Uh, I can read your CV, I can see that you studied and you got a 2:1 or whatever that is, and, and I can see that you worked at this organization for 5 years, and I can see broadly what skills you have because obviously a CV shouldn't be longer than 2 pages. But tell me in your covering letter why you are the best person and perhaps what skills are hidden throughout your CV that you really want to put out in my face so that I'm very alert and very aware that you have that thing that I'm looking for.

Okay, that makes sense. In terms of the skills then, what skills would you say make a candidate particularly attractive to your organization?

I think, again, it does depend on the role, right? Yeah, of course. So if you're a project manager, I want to know how, you know, the size of the projects that you've been, that you've been, that you've been handling. I think for me it's also really about, again, that personal connection. I've been, I've been reading CVs, and then the moment you see the candidate, you feel feel from, again, from the handshake, this person is not for us. Or there's been opportunities where an underdog just smashed it in the interview and they're absolutely terrific. So, but again, the covering letter is, for me at least, is what I enjoy reading more because you can feel the tone of the person, you know, you can almost feel the voice of that person in what they write.

Yeah, that's really interesting actually. I never really considered that before. Um, in terms of the skills though, something I think is really interesting that you mentioned there is about it being also about the person. And I think there's a lot of students when they're going throughout university— I was the same, especially my first year and throughout my second year as well— not really being sure what career path they wanted to go down. And the issue that then leads to is not knowing what skills you need to develop, not knowing what experience you need to develop. But I think the best thing, Ryan— it seems that you're kind of agreeing with us here— is the best thing is just to build those soft skills, because then no matter what industry you decide to go into, you're going to increase the likelihood you're going to be successful because you have those people skills, you're able to communicate you're able to kind of give off a good impression when you meet that person.

I mean, absolutely. And be honest, like, you can just say, I've only done this for 2 years and, you know, I'm still learning on the job, but I'm great with people, I'm great to deal with crisis, I'm great to adapt, I'm great to work in small teams, I'm great to work at a fast pace, I'm great to prioritize. Um, you know, those skills at times are even more important than whether you've done that job for a year or two.

Interesting. Yeah, very interesting. In terms of Going back to that, that AI conversation, obviously there is a lot of use of AI now in applications, whether that be to help kind of optimize your CV or to help write a cover letter for you. What would you say about that? What's your opinion about that? Should students use AI for that, or should they focus on making it personal and really coming from the heart almost?

Uh, that's, that's a tricky one because I, I haven't really— I actually never thought of that. Um, but I can, I can possibly tell if a CV has been written by AI because it sounds very robotic and impersonal. And I know some people, I mean, we encourage everybody in the organization to use AI, whether you want to draft an email, whether you want to take a summary of, you know, for example, a legal report that we write. I mean, they tend to be like 50 pages. So, you know, we, if we want to write a summary, let's use AI. But I would say let's use AI as a basics, as a start, and then really inject your voice because it's— you can tell if an email has been written by AI. It tends to be very robotic, very impersonal. So if you want to use it to just give you a framework, 100%, you should. But I mean, I would be silly and say not because it will happen eventually. But then inject your voice, make sure that you spend time in crafting the initial baseline that you've been given by AI to make that— to make sure that your voice really comes across.

Essentially, don't rely on AI and still inject.

I've asked Bard or whatever, you know, I put my name on AI and they said that I was working for CNN and like stuff literally completely made up. So don't rely.

Do your own research.

100%.

Amazing. I, I honestly feel kind of wrong for asking this question because you've provided so much useful advice already, but just to kind of wrap things up, what would be your, your number one piece of advice for students listening to this podcast?

I would say just go for it. Like, you know, just, just don't be shy. If you, if you, if you feel that you are interested in a job, apply, and, and don't take rejection personally, if you can ask why you didn't get the job, because some people in some companies actually kind enough to give you some feedback. And, but definitely don't take it personally. It's a tough job market as well, so it's not really about, uh, you're competing with a lot of really good talented people, right? So don't, don't make rejection hurt you because it's, it's the game.

Amazing. I think that's a great place to wrap things up. Thank you so much again for coming.

Thank you, Charlie.

And for all the students, young people listening, you know where to find the entry-level Thank you very much.