Ariel Renous, Co-Founder @ Augment

I'm going to be sponsoring 10 students to take the Augment Entrepreneurship Programme that's taught by the founders of Shazam, Wikipedia, YouTube, and it's been put on by Augment. The co-founder is Ariel, and I had the opportunity to sit down with him today to talk about his journey from being a history student at King's to co-founding one of the fastest-growing companies in the world. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today is a very special day, I'm joined by my co-host Marleen, for our first in-person interview, and we've got a very special guest. Ariel, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start us off by talking through your career journey from studying history at King's to now founding Augment and everything you do there.

Thanks a lot, Peter. Thanks for having me. I'm super happy to be here. So I grew up in Belgium Moved to London, did history at King's, realized quite quickly that that was not my path. And so I got into business school. I studied at HEC in Paris, did my master's in management, worked for a year, and now I'm the co-founder and CEO of Augment. This is an education startup. We're building an alternative MBA taught by the founders of Shazam, Wikipedia, YouTube, Waze, Lime, and some top executives. The company is less than 2 years old, but we just raised a $6 million seed round. We've got a team of around 10 and more than 500 students from all across the globe. And yeah, we were just talking about that right before the interview, but I was a student at King's, so I remember me being exactly in the shoes of your listeners. 3, 4 years ago, so I'm super happy to, to get to talk to my younger self.

Yes, I want to ask the question that I feel like a lot of students listening will be wondering, you know, you say, oh, I want to make this alternative MBA and a business course, that's all, that's all well and good as a concept, but then the people you've actually managed to get to teach it are literally the biggest founders in in the world, which is like the real separating part of why you're doing so well and why you've raised and everything. So what did that take? What was that journey like?

The truth is it's not that hard. And the quick story of like how we got the first yes, because when you start and you've got this very big idea, you go to investors and we somehow managed to convince them to give us money. But we had nothing. I'm from Belgium, I know no one in Silicon Valley, of course. And so we reached out to tons of people, found their email online, and we constantly heard no, no, no, no. And then one day, Chris Barton, the co-founder of Shazam, was like, oh guys, that looks interesting, let's have dinner. So we flew to San Francisco. Sat down with him, had dinner, it went super well, and was like, okay, I'm in. And once you get the first yes, constantly hear yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So it's really like the zero to one, getting the first yes, the first proof that, okay, this is proof of concept, this is working, this is legit, we've got someone that brings credibility to the project. So that this is— and today it's totally different. We've got 12 instructors, they all know each other, we've got the platform, they can see the videos, So it's getting easier with time to attract those top celebrities. But at first it was just like pure numbers game. If we reach out to 200 people, we will have one yes. You just need to find the right email addresses, craft the right message, and just like do it consistently over a certain period of time. And that will work.

Yeah, I guess I can relate to this journey with the podcast in some kind of way where I think when you're just a third-year history student at UCL, you think like, you don't have the right to maybe be messaging or speaking to some of the people. But my sort of, you know, mentality was, which was a very like deluded, you know, optimistic mindset at the time, but it was necessary to make any of this work, was just like, well, if they respond, then great, cool. Even if it's yes or no, just like that, that's cool that they've responded to me. And if they don't, you'll never find out the answer anyway. And like you know, you're not expected as a student to get a yes from, say, the managing director of Google, but he was really the first person that was like, "Yeah, it just sounds cool." And I guess with the founder of Shazam, was there an element of philanthropy in him doing it? Like, what was his intentions behind doing that?

Of course. So there was a big part of legacy, giving back, teaching what he learned, etc. But coming back to your parents, you reaching out to the Google guy, for instance, reach outs are free. And in today's world, it's so easy just to connect to someone on LinkedIn or find the right email address, whatever. And I don't know, like since the very beginning, I've always, that's how I find my internships, that's how I got my first job. I don't know why, but I can't stand like the standard interview process where you need to first round, second round, blah blah blah, case study, whatever. Like these people, they've got email addresses, just send a bunch of emails and you will hear back from at least some of them and then it's your job to convert that into an opportunity. But yeah, I've like always been a strong proponent like sending mass emails to a bunch of interesting people.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think I have a startup as well, and just the, the experience of reaching out to people and actually hearing back is very satisfying in the beginning when you're testing your idea. But what I'm more curious about— so when you left King's and went to HSC to study management, and you probably felt like there was a missing element in your education, right, where you felt, okay, great, with all these theories and academics teaching me, and then there was like a missing element that I think you tried to come in with Augment or sort of bridge that gap in the market. So can you tell us about that story where you felt like your education wasn't really complete and that was actually inspiration for your business?

I loved HEC. I love the business school experience. I love being on campus. I met some of my best friends, and that's the reason I stayed in Paris and that I now live in Paris. But the actual content was disappointing. It was taught by academics. It was irrelevant. It was not connected to the realities of business world. Case studies based on pre-internet era examples that really didn't make sense. And I remember just like the disconnect from, okay, your entrepreneurship teacher is not an entrepreneur, he's a researcher, and then you just go on the internet and you've got access to the founders of OpenAI and whatever, and they teach you on YouTube or on podcast. There is something that doesn't make sense in, in this, you know. And the first one, taught by academics, is so much more expensive. It's so much more exclusive and requires so much more commitment, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, the idea and the premise behind Augment is just very simple. Business education grounded into the realities of business, taught by people who have done it, based on examples from product and services that we know of and have some sort of like emotional engagement towards, because we use them in our everyday life. And let's make that fun, engaging, affordable, fully self-paced, fitting into the lives of busy professionals. Just like a modern take on the traditional system that works for some people. And I believe like if you want to get into banking, if you want to get into like top consulting jobs, go do a traditional MBA. But 99% of people just want to get the business skills they need, know the language and the frameworks, and then pay, I don't know, like 100K and take 2 years off and move to a different city to learn outdated frameworks.

I find it funny with me having just graduated from UCL. So I got a history degree as well. And Although I don't see the history degree in itself as particularly useful to anything that I did, like, I think for a lot of business solutions, and much like yours, you kind of have to be in and amongst it to know how much of a problem it is to solve. So you have to go through and experience it. So like, even though I look at my education in so many ways as like a waste of money, in some regards I'm like, well, if I just went straight out of school into like the abyss and was like, I'm going to become an entrepreneur It doesn't really work like that. You've got to experience things in life and meet the right people and whatever. So yeah, I mean, obviously you did a history degree as well and then went on to a business degree. How do you sort of reflect on education? And obviously with this podcast, not everyone's going to give the same advice. They're going to be very academic people who give very academic advice. But for yourself and someone who might be relating to you so far in the episode, how would you, you know, advise people to treat education?

So history and humanities in general taught me two very important things. First is how to write, and two is how to craft a good story or a good argument. And copywriting and storytelling are two of the most important skills in business. Um, and so It's crazy the extent to which my daily job today, when I talk to investors, I tell them the story of like what we're building, where we need to go, and why it will be a big company. When I try to hire people to join the team, same. You know, you sell the vision, you build a story, et cetera. When I go to those big entrepreneurs, CEOs, and executives, Again, same thing. So there are some transferable skills. The knowledge of like the Roman Empire, who cares? That's not the point. Um, yeah, I really believe that there are some fundamental, like, foundational skills that you learn studying history or any type of humanities that can would really be a massive boost in the, in the business world. And that I, I learned how you analyze a wide range of information and try to make compelling arguments and like defending one point, one side of the story. And you know, like, this is what business is all about. You just like need to have a clear vision, tell them to people, and find the right people to do the job. But you need to sell all the time, and this is part of storytelling and copywriting.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I have a background in social sciences as well, and I think the biggest value really is to just be able to know how to make an argument, as you said, or know how to tell a story from beginning to end. I'm very curious to hear a bit more about the time where you were at university, particularly at King's. Because before the interview you mentioned that you started developing an interest in entrepreneurship during your time there. So I'm just curious, like, how did that come about? And maybe can you talk us through your ideas of the first companies you had and why they didn't work?

It's very bad. It's so bad. And so I remember, like, we found a very old pitch deck from like 2017 that I built with my current co-founder, and we've been best friends right, since we're like 10. And looking back, we're like, okay, this idea was so stupid. It was like, let's build an app where you can— the app will tell you where you will be able to buy whatever. Okay, she's like, who cares when you can just order that on Amazon? It was just like a Very simple, like, student idea. And even like the pitch deck, the way we presented it was just terrible. I remember also we were working on like an online gambling company, classic student startup idea. And the crazy thing is that I believe that since 2017, We've explored hundreds of ideas. And most of them were bad, maybe some of them were good, you don't know, you know. But the search is very long and painful. And now looking back, I know that there is an end to that and that the real entrepreneurship adventure starts at some point and all of a sudden you pick one idea, You focus and you build it. But when you are exploring ideas and ideas and ideas, you end up thinking, okay, this is never gonna end. I'm never gonna become an entrepreneur. Every time I've got an idea, I realize 2 weeks later that it's not good, that it's not gonna work, that it's not for me, that I can't build it. And you believe that you will never escape this cycle. Circle. But at some point, something clicks and all the pieces fit together, and then you start the real entrepreneurial adventure. But that was a very long journey. It took 6 years and probably hundreds of very, very bad ideas.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with myself, I had some also pretty questionable business ideas that I was thinking about and doing with other people while I started The Graduate Guide. But I never saw The Graduate Guide as a business or my career or anything. But I, in the same way that we've all met, you were just reaching out to people and as soon as you got that first yes, the business could start from there. So it wasn't, it was like one of those background ideas maybe you've been thinking about for a while and it was completely based on execution. It wasn't based on ideating or validating like the, the solution, yeah, what you— the product you're actually making, it's like obvious, you know, that's going to sell, people are going to want it if you can get it. So I guess it wasn't that like— it's not that manic depressive of a business idea in that, yeah, you can— you get a lot of satisfaction from even the conversations you might be able to have with that person.

Exactly.

They say no. So was that— do you think there was a big reason for Augment's success?

Is, is that I really like this point because sometimes, and so this is very true and it's very hard to realize when you are a student, is that you never know what's gonna end up being a business. And your side projects that you just do it because you find it interesting or because you do it with friends or the music you do with your friends or whatever you're writing on the side, whatever project you're undertaking, that might end up being a business. And I wish that 5, 6 years ago, instead of just like thinking about business ideas, trying to talk to people just to find the right one, exploring trends, I would just have like, just do stuff. And some of them will take off. And this may end up being a business, or this may end up to lead to a new job, or lead to an opportunity. But escaping this like thinking mode, and like, okay, I need the right perfect business idea to start with, and this will be the start of my adventure, and I would be now an entrepreneur, and I will start my company. This is bullshit. And I believe like I've been living in this bullshit for 5, 6 years instead of just like, okay, let's do something and see where it ends. It might end up being a business, it might end up being like, I don't know, just a fun experience and you'll meet a bunch of interesting people, you'll do something interesting, whatever, you'll learn at least. Escaping this thinking mode and brainstorming mode and having a bias towards action. This is what I would strongly, this is what I would change when I look at the past 5, 6 years of my life.

I think a really beautiful story about Fairphone, I don't know if you're familiar with that startup, but it's basically they want to produce ethical phones with ethically sourced cobalt. The founder, before he started producing phones, he just made a 2-year campaign about sort of the cobalt exploitation and how bad it is and human rights violations behind it. And then only 2 years in, he sort of then had the idea to turn into a company and actually try to produce ethical phones. So I know before you just said, oh, when you're a student, just go and like do things. But maybe you have some sort of more concrete advice, like what would you think if you're a student and you're sort of interested in entrepreneurship, maybe very general and you don't have that many connections or resources, what would you see as the most valuable things to do when you're a student in that position?

So the most simple thing to do, and it always blows my mind the extent to which it works, If you don't know what to do, you are lost, just pick a topic and write about it and publish that on LinkedIn or Twitter or any of your social network. That's actually how I got my first job. I joined a unicorn company called Jadismack and I was hired directly by the founders of the company. Jadismack is creating content with top YouTube creators. And, you know, I was studying at HEC. We had like a big, a big work to submit at the end of the, of the final year, and I just published it online. I divided this work into a few blog posts and I published it online. And like, just like being out there and sharing your thoughts, showing that, oh, actually, like, you can think, you've done research, you're curious about, like, one very specific topic, whatever it is, will bring you so many opportunities. You'll meet a bunch of people, people will reach out to you, and that will already put you in the 1% of people creating content versus the other 99% of people, everyone is just consuming content all the time. So I don't know if it's, like, the most valuable thing, But if you don't know where to start, you've got some interest, just read a lot, write some stuff, publish that, and you'll have some opportunities coming to you. Because when you're a student, you're like, okay, I want to have some opportunities, and so you're always chasing new opportunities. But you don't know where to look for, and you don't know where to find them. Bring them to you, attract them to you. And the best way to do that is just like write some stuff, publish content on the internet, and people will find you and come to you.

Yeah, I think when somebody told me that your LinkedIn is your reputation, I was like, that really— it made sense to me. Because when I was messaging people in the early days trying out on the podcast, like, I'd done nothing. I just said, okay, I I'm at UCL. As soon as I'd start commenting on some people's stuff, like, oh, this is really cool, like, what you're doing, or maybe even I invited some mates on that I did the first few episodes with. That's your reputation. Yeah, it's different to a CV. It's not qualification. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a completely different thing. Yeah, so that would be my advice, is to think about, yeah, how you can build that online reputation for yourself so that you can leverage that whenever you go into conversation with anyone.

It's so easy. You only like write 3, 4 pieces, publish 2, 3 podcasts, that already sets you apart from basically everyone else.

Yeah, and I'm curious with you, was it like, was there a point in your head where like, okay, so you were doing, say you got that job through building this reputation and whatever, but you have this, you know you want to be an entrepreneur. A lot of people don't have their first successful company till their 30s or whatever, or maybe they have a career beforehand and they venture into it. But did you like, had you made like mentally decided, okay, it's entrepreneurship or nothing? Because for me, I think it's only recently that I got like the validation that I needed to kind of be like, okay, this, all this stuff, work I was doing isn't just for a CV anymore, it's actually like for a reason, for entrepreneurship.

I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. And coming back to this, like I was building pitch deck at uni just because, I don't know. So yeah, I believe I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. But you know, life is long and some days you just like talk to someone who is in finance and they tell you about their life and you're like, oh, actually, like, this is interesting, maybe I should give it a try. And then you talk to someone in consulting and they tell you something, oh yeah. I believe that on average, most days I wanted to be an entrepreneur. But you know, like, we're very, I don't know, it's very easy to be influenced by some people. And when you see someone who's passionate about something, you say, oh, I want to do that. And you're like, no, not really. It's just like, the energy of this person was contagious, and so I wanted to do this. But I believe that most days I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And when I started working, I worked for 1 year at a company, and I quickly realized that this would not be for me. I mean, I knew it because like my colleagues were super fun, my job was super, super fun, I love the mission of the company, I was paid well, blah blah blah. Still, like, it was not for me. And I remember having this discussion was like, when I told them, okay, I don't know how I'm gonna evolve within the company, the co-founder of the company told me, okay, you need to talk to the chief product officer, maybe he will have some opportunities for you. And so we had like a chat, and after 5 minutes, he's like, No, but like, don't stay here. I know that like you won't be happy, you want to start your own thing, just go do it. And he was perfectly right, he knew it. Yeah.

Nice. So I think the idea of like being an entrepreneur as a student, like it can be a very strong one and kind of you're young, you're motivated, you're like Yes, I want to do that. But I feel at the same time that sometimes students have a bit of a like wrong or glamorized conceptions like what it means to be an entrepreneur. So I'm very curious, like your idea, my Kings, or maybe, uh, I should say, of being, um, you know, an entrepreneur and then actually going ahead and doing it and doing the grind and hustling through it. Like, what would you say were some of the things that proved out to be completely wrong when you actually had your business?

Yeah, yeah, so many things. I believe like the main thing is that I, you think you want, like as a student I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I had no idea like what would be my life in practice. Like what do you do? What's the actual job? What are the skills that you need? And it's even more difficult when you're a student and you have actually no professional experience. So you don't even know how a normal company operates. So how can you have a clear idea of how you should run a company and what will be your role when you will be leading a company? And so it's all very— and I try to remember how I was thinking about these topics. I believe it was very vague in my mind, which is actually super okay. And this is not a problem. And for me, for instance, when I say, okay, I believe I find myself in this exact situation today because it was super vague and unclear and blurry. Like, what's the actual job? What do you do actually? And now it's a bit clearer. And so you learn a lot, you listen to podcasts, you read a bunch of stuff and you're like, okay, now I've got a clearer idea of how do you get an idea? How do you build the first product? How do you launch, and et cetera? And now I just came to the realization that, oh, okay, no, actually I've got like 10 people in my team, we just raised like $6 million. How do you bring a company from 10 to 100 people? I've got no idea. And so I believe I find myself in this exact same situation again, where like, and actually I just bought a book this weekend, because I was like, okay, no, I need to learn this other part of the journey. That's still super blurry, super vague. I still have no idea. And, but it's, you know, this is a positive sign. It means that you're stretching. That means that you are in your, you're not in your zone of comfort. And so that's how you learn and that's how you progress.

So in that quest of like trying to build a company from 10 to 100 people. Can you talk about your most important advisors and relationships, and particularly the relationship with your co-founder? Because you mentioned earlier that he was with the— you know, he's your friend and you started multiple businesses with him or had ideas, and you're still now, you know, co-founders. So how did you kind of know that he was the right person to build a business with? Because I imagine not every friend is suited for that. So yeah.

So I've always wanted to build a business with Roy. I believe I had like a wrong idea, or like there is like this kind of myth that if you're the business person, you need a technical person, and that's like, it's important to have complementary skills in a founding team, which is true for some projects, of course, like If you're building a deep tech project, you need at least one engineer in the team. But most projects are not really that technical. And the one thing that's very important to know is that co-founders breakup is the first source of failure in startups, more than lack of product-market fit, more than competition, competition. More than everything else. And so picking the right co-founder is probably the biggest and most irreversible decision that you will make as an entrepreneur. My two advice is one, go with a friend. Most people say like, don't work, of course, like you're putting your relationship at risk, but you need to be aware of that. You're going to spend so much time with your co-founder that if he's not a friend or someone you really enjoy spending time with, it's going to be very, very tough. And second is work with some, like, find a project and do a triad, work together before embarking into this like very, very big adventure. So it's always easier to pick like a colleague or someone you have experience working with and you know how this person reacts in a stressful situation, you know how this person celebrates wins. And so having this type of experience of like, okay, we've actually worked together and we've got a course with that, with Steve Chen, he's the founder of YouTube and he's teaching on Augment how he picked Chad Hurley, co-founder at YouTube and how they've worked together for 6 years at PayPal. And they knew exactly how the relationship was and functioned. And that minimizes, not eliminates, minimizes the risk of co-founder breakup.

I think in the early days of business, it's drilled into you, just say yes to everything, right?

Yeah, 100%.

And it's something that I was actually very natural at, like saying yes is something that's kind of ingrained within me. And weirdly, and I know this will be even truer on your side of things, like there's a point, you don't know when it's going to happen, it just happens randomly, that you need to start saying no to people, preserve the quality and to stick to the mission statement of your company. Obviously with you, like, you get these top dogs on and then there's people that want to be associated with those other top dogs by virtue of teaching on the same course. How do you—

Every day people come to us and ask to teach on Augment and we say no. But I love what you said, the fact that like when you start you just need to say yes to everything. And I remember when I was a student and I was like coming to London, I would post on LinkedIn and on Twitter, I'm coming to London, who should I meet? And I would take any meeting, didn't care, you know, and you never know where it will lead. And so you've got time, and that's how I met some really, really good friends. I met them on Twitter and on LinkedIn, and I went skiing with them last year. So yes, say yes to everything. And then at some point you will have to start to say no, but I still continue to say yes to most of things. I can relate.

I actually said yes to you coming on this podcast yesterday.

Can you believe it? I texted you yesterday and it was like, actually, I'm in London tomorrow. Let's do this. We're like, yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, I think even with that, I was only a few months out of university and there's an element of like imposter syndrome that is inevitable. Like when, you know, whether it's— I mean, you're a very personable, nice guy, but it's also what you're attached to and like who this episode will then go out to. That's just like, okay, this is happening. Like when you even when you were like, okay, let's do the giveaway. We're doing a giveaway, by the way, 10 students. Um, yeah, more on that later. But, um, yeah, I just want to ask about, um, those relationship with those founders. Like, obviously you've probably met them all at least once to secure them.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And like, these are like the top business people.

Yeah.

What's your relationship with them? Are they, are they like mentors? They really buy into more than just like delivering that one course and then it's like actually being part of Augment or like, you know, is it just like you do the course and you move on?

It depends. Some of them, it was like very, it was just like one time, it was a fun experience and that's it. And for some of them, we're like still really, really close. We chat on WhatsApp, like sometimes we go and meet them again. But what's for sure is that this is a very special project for them. For most of them, almost all of them, it's the first time they're building a course. And the process is It's not like a random keynote, interview, or podcast. There's a lot of preparation. There is a script, there is coaching, a few coaching sessions beforehand. Production is super, super heavy. We've got like 30 people on set, 3 cameras, just so that the quality is cinematic, super, super high. And like similar to what you can see on MasterClass or Netflix, we're using the same cameras. Same type of technology. And so this is something big, and it's the first time for most of them. And there is a very— you can be the founder of Wikipedia, you can be whoever, when you're sitting down and there are like 30 people in front of you looking at you, you're nervous. You're nervous. And so there is like this human element to it, adrenaline during the filming that I love, and production is super, super, super fun. And that builds great relationships because like you've lived something that was emotionally intense with someone and that leaves marks.

So like, obviously when building the relations with such important founders, um, who have probably like endless things to tell, right, about their business and stuff— when you sat down with your co-founder, what were sort of the, the product development, um, ideas behind it? Like, where do you even start the course? Like, what are the key lessons to teach? Where does it end? So can you talk us a bit more about how you build Augment, like with the specific courses and what it kind of teaches and some of the experience that people had going through the course, right? What's different about it than watching some YouTube videos or actually listening to podcasts that you listen to? What do you think is the real added value of it?

So the, the original idea behind Augment, it was just so simple. It was just like, let's make the best business courses, best production, best instructors, best quality, best brand. And there are tons of business courses. We're just like, okay, what would make it like— there's a lot of courses that are like 10 out of 10. What makes it like a 12 or 15? Uh, and so I believe that I'm sure you will agree with that when you are at university, the quality of the course does not depend on the topic, but it depends on the teacher. And so from the very beginning, the idea was just like, let's get the best teachers. And the main difference is that we do a lot of work and a lot of preparation, much, much, much more than any keynote or podcast. And so how we started, for instance, was coming back to the story with Chris from Shazam. When we went to meet him in San Francisco, we had 50 pages of notes. We knew everything about his life, everything about Shazam. We had 2 interns who read everything, watched every single YouTube interview, whatever, of himself, of his 3 co-founders at Shazam, everything. And so we had a very detailed plan of like, okay, we know everything about you. These are the 10 topics where we believe you're potentially the best teacher in the world because of your unique experience and unique learnings. And so The method of course creation is so important. And there is something that I always tell the team in terms of content creation. People feel the work. It's super hard to fake it. They feel the passion, they feel the work, they feel that, okay, you've actually— there is no shortcuts in content creation. People talk about AI stuff, blah blah blah. No, that's not true. Like, you need to be intentional, you need to know exactly what you want, and you need to put the work so that you can produce some quality content. That's like one of the core beliefs. And so I believe that this is honestly what makes the one, the project, appealing to them, and that's what makes special and not just like a random keynote, because those guys are invited all over the world to give speeches in front of like whatever audience. And that's what makes them super, super special. Yeah.

And then also they can go on to get a signed certificate from Chris Barton himself.

Exactly. And so for the students, basically we package all the courses into one big program. It's an alternative MBA. Now we've got also an entrepreneurship program, which is a bit shorter. And in the main program, the alternative MBA, we teach finance, leadership, strategy, marketing, entrepreneurship, management. So like the typical business course curriculum, but we teach it with like real-world examples from real companies and real founders. Upon completion, people can get also a certificate that they can post on LinkedIn. Certificate is signed by Chris himself, the founder of Shazam. And there is also, we're building a community element to it. Actually, I'm in London because last night we had the first in-person community event with 35 Augment alumni in London. Most of the alumni are in the US, but we also have some in London. And so it was just so, so nice. I'm still high just because it was so nice to meet everyone in person. You know, we've been building this business for 18 months and it's all online, it's all digital, so it's good and you have conversations with students and clients, et cetera. So there is some sort of interaction, but nothing beats that. In person, face to face, and just like having the entire Augment team and then like 35 students in the same room enjoying some drinks, some food, and connecting. That was just like a magical moment. And so we will also invest a lot more in the community aspect of it. And this is also why we just raised the $6 million.

Oh, you've been, you've been amazing, and, and you have such an infectious energy. Um, I can see why people would want to invest in you. My final question of the episode to you, and I ask all my guests this question: when you were studying history at King's, thinking about being an entrepreneur, you would have had a certain idea of what a successful career would look like to you. Yeah, a few years on, loads of learnings, What does a successful career look like to you?

It's interesting because redefining success constantly, I believe, is a really good practice. For me, I'm still like at nowhere near where I want to be. The main difference between myself from like 5 years ago and today is that I know now that I'm an entrepreneur and that I will be doing that for the next 30, 40 years, I don't know. I know this is my first company, I know there will be many more companies in the future. And honestly, maybe the main difference is the notion of like having fun. And I'm building this company because yes, I believe like this is a good business and this will be a viable company with healthy unit economics and blah blah blah blah blah. But also it's just so much fun to build. You talk to interesting people, you do production, you bring people together. We had the community event in London last night. It's just so much fun to build and having like this element of like Okay, I'm doing that because of course I see the path for this company to become a huge, massive business success. But also there is no other company I would want to build because I'm having so much fun and the team is having so much fun. Having this element of just enjoying the moment and the journey, and of course the goal is important, but just like, You live good experiences, you meet with interesting people, you learn a lot, you do things, a lot of things for the first time, which for me is very, very important. I believe like this is a different way of looking at like what success looks like. And this is something I always tell the team. In 20 years, we will look back at this moment in time and this will be like the good old days. And you always want to be living in, like looking back, and you know you're in the good old days even before it's old. And that just tells you how much fun you can have while, again, we need to build a business and we have revenue, we've got investors, we've got customers, we've got clients, etc. Etc. But we're just enjoying ourselves, and that's the best.

Marleen, thanks for coming to listen with me today.

Thank you. So nice to have you, so nice to meet with your listeners as well.

Yeah, thanks so much for coming on. That was great.

Pleasure.

Cheers, mate.