Ben Dando, International Managing Director @ Liquid Death

Welcome back to another episode of The Garageyard Guide. Today's a very special day. Joined by Ben, the International Managing Director of Liquid Death. There's a lot of ways we could take this interview, you've done a lot of different things in your career and, you know, I think the best place to start is, for somehow you don't know Liquid Death, if you could just explain what Liquid Death is to you and why it has become the massive company that it has already.

Yeah, cool. Well, firstly, thank you for having me on the podcast. Liquid Death was founded by a guy called Mike Cesario around 5 years ago. It's actually a unicorn brand now, which means that we've gone over a billion in valuation in a very short period of time. I think the, the thing for me, Liquid Death, it's a disruptive brand that stands out from other brands. It's kind of ripped up the rule book on marketing, and it's looking to, you know, be a social-first brand but also has a clear purpose. So it's Liquid Death, death to plastic, which effectively is, you know, single-use plastic is a significant issue everywhere globally at this point in time. Around about 9% of the world's plastic gets recycled. So Mike, you know, Mike had a view of going, actually, I can create a brand that's got health, wellness, and sustainability, but actually it's just not really boring and really dull like so many brands are. And so he took those principles, pulled it together, and he created what was a water brand to start off with, and now we've gone into, you know, we've got teas, we've got water, we've got flavoured sparkling water, and we go into multiple categories. We've got around about 7 million followers through Instagram and TikTok, sort of, you know, hitting the 250 mil mark, and it's just, it's grown rapidly in over 100,000 doors now. So it's one of those brands that I think lots of people look to as a significant success story in a short period of time. And also bear in mind that Mike founded this brand pretty much during COVID so, you know, you've got a global crisis happening everywhere and he's named his brand Liquid Death, so, you know, and taking it from that to where we've got to, and really we're still in our infancy, but it's just, it's an incredible story, so it's nice to be a part of it.

Yeah, and I guess, so at this stage in your career, you're now leading the expansion internationally over very successful US brand. And I mean, that's what you're doing right now, but I bet when you were at Exeter, you know, studying sports science, you know, sports college, maybe trying to make it in the sport world, this is probably not where you end up, expected ending up. Yeah. So throughout this episode, I guess we're going to try and work out how you got from this sports science student into where you are now. And I think the best first step is, uh, yeah, you, you graduate, you end up going to Bath, doing a Master's in Management.

Yeah.

What made you want to study management? And like, is that for you, the sport world was a very inaccessible one, maybe it was very hard to get into, so you had to pick something, or was it very directional?

Yeah, so I guess going back a step, I always wanted to be an international athlete, so I played field hockey internationally for a number of years, which is why I went to Exeter to study sports science, because I wanted to know about physiology, anatomy, sports psychology, how do you know biomechanics, how do I improve me as an athlete so that I can like hopefully achieve the goals that I'd set myself in that sports world. Turns out I didn't achieve them, but I had a great time like learning, progressing, and I've met some of the best people in my life off the back of it. So I went from Exeter and I went to Bath University. Actually went to Bath University for a couple of reasons. I realised that sports science, you know, great degree, but I didn't want to be in the sporting world. And then trying to take that and apply that into business, which I had an interest in, it was difficult to take, you know, physiology or biomechanics into business. They're just, it's really quite binary, so it's not there. So I wanted to go and learn a bit more about business and management, finance, economics, accounting, and go, okay, can I take principles of sport you know, leadership, teamwork, goal setting, you know, some of those things, into like business acumen and knowledge, and then apply those two together and then start figuring out what I wanted to do. I also had a slight spanner in the works in that my son came along during my second year of university, my first son, so I needed to be close to my family at that point. Bath was a great university but also close to my family, so I was trying to sort progress through international sport, build some form of business acumen, try and be, you know, the best father that I could be, and then like figure out, you know, and it was definitely just trying to figure out at that stage.

Yeah, so you're juggling a lot of different things and I guess it's hard enough as it is to try and find a career that you're passionate about with all— when real life gets in the way, But I think, like, you know, the current job market, and a lot of graduates can probably relate to, you know, whether it's the cost of living crisis or anything that's going on in the world, like, you need— you're told that you need to start finding a career, but it's not always immediately obvious how you do that. So yeah, talk me through what that experience at Bath was actually like, and then how it left you by the end of it. What situation were you at?

Yeah, cool. Yeah, so I, yeah, obviously studied that degree, and the view was just to just learn and pass, really, and actually started working full-time. So I started working for a live events and PR company. Didn't particularly— not particularly passionate about it, didn't particularly want to go into it, but it, again, it was a job that allowed me to study, do the sport, learn a bit, and actually we worked with some fantastic brands, which is probably where my journey of where I've got to Liquid Death starts. I was there for around about 2 years. On a very low— I think I was on £18,000, like, my first salary, which was pretty tough going, you know, quite a few years ago. And one of the brands that we worked on was Relentless, which was a Coca-Cola brand which you still see floating around the UK market today, but that was a beverage brand. And there was a guy there that actually ended up becoming one of my first mentors and one of the key people that actually introduced me to the world of beverages. Which was like my first stepping stone into building a career in beverages. And it was like, I had a fantastic time, I had quite high autonomy, it was a very small company, it was only 3 employees at the time, but we worked on these brands and they were great. Like, and then I sort of started realizing I really like brands and I'd really start to understand why brands and what, you know, what, why do people buy into brands and what appeals to them. And from that moment with working with Relentless, this guy called David said, hey, have you thought about coming into a bigger corporate blue chip and actually coming through on like a graduate program or an accelerated graduate program? I'd never applied for a graduate program, I wasn't interested in it whatsoever, I didn't want to go and work for a big corporate, I'm the least corporate person around, I was like, it's just, you know, it's not for me, but I felt like going to work for the world's biggest brand was quite a good opportunity. So I had to go through an interview process, you know, with— and it was called Coca-Cola— what were they called? Coca-Cola Enterprises at the time. They're now called Coca-Cola Euro Pacific Partners. So a huge old company, but they make, sell, and distribute the Coca-Cola brands. So I went through this process, ended up getting this role, and I think I was one of about 4 or 5 people in the country that year that got it. And that gave me the opportunity to work on, like, you know, brand, commercial, like, category, shopper marketing. It gave me a range of different experiences, significant people leadership, you know, over a period of time at being at Coke. But actually, there was a small gap as well between joining Coca-Cola and working for this events company as well, and I went and joined Red Bull. Okay. Because I can't quite remember the timings, but let's say there was like a 6-month window before I could start the program, so, and realised I like brands. I'd worked on Relentless, which was an energy drink, and then I had an opportunity to apply for a role at Red Bull to be their on-premise musketeer, which was basically just going around to bars, nightclubs in the southwest of the UK and taking what is, you know, fantastic brand and making sure it's present in as many places as you can get it. I had the best time, like, ever. It was so much fun, and it was— I mean, it's definitely a young man's game or young woman's game because it was quite intense. But it was so much fun, and that gave me my kind of first sales experience in the cold face in beverages. And then I transitioned into Coca-Cola, and I think my— at Coca-Cola, like I said, I worked in shopper marketing, which effectively is like, how do you execute a brand on shelf or in multiple different places so that people kind of— you're visible and they want to pick your brand up? I used to look after the brands Dr Pepper, Sprite, Fanta, and Lilt. RIP Lilt, it's no longer around, but It was a great little brand, and then it allowed me the opportunity to do things like I worked at the Olympics for Coca-Cola at London 2012 Olympics, which was incredible. And then by the time I left Coca-Cola, I was running a team of about 82, 83 people, like multiple layers. I was sort of one of the youngest senior managers they'd had within Coca-Cola Enterprises at that point in time, and I was just, I was loving it, but I also realized I think it got to a point where I had a beard and someone said to me that my beard would be career-limiting. So I think at that point I was like, yeah, okay, I don't think Coca-Cola's for me if someone's going to judge my performance based on my appearance.

Just on that, I guess, you mentioned earlier the importance of mentorship and some of the decisions you've made, and I think people hear this word, having a mentor, and I don't think it's immediately obvious what that actually means because like, at what point does someone become, you know, someone you met that gave you a piece of advice and actually become a mentor that can influence a decision that's going to change your whole career?

Yeah, totally. Listen, you can have informal and formal mentors or coaches, and they can change over time as well, but the, like, the, the The power of networking and then the power of making sure that you've got smart people around you who you can learn from is just so, so important. So this first person in my career helped me get the job, and then I would lean on them fairly frequently for advice on, you know, hey, I'm thinking of approaching this thing this way, what do you think? And just ask questions and learn, because you're like— I was young, hungry, keen, but you don't know everything. Like, you might think you do at times, but you don't, and you've got to control like competency, behavior, ego, like, experience, you know, all of those things. And working with mentors that can help provide solutions for you or coach you through to find the right solutions is just so important. And those mentors may have changed over time, and they've changed depending on different needs as well. So if I've been particularly weak in an area that I wanted to develop on, I've picked a mentor who knows a lot in that space. It's a lot of operations, you know, I wasn't an operations guy, an operations mentor. I found out a shitload about operations, which was great because you're asking the right questions. And then, you know, you move forward. One of my last mentors actually was more around financing, equity raising, exiting companies. Like, it's so different from operations where my first mentor started, but it's because as my career's progressed, I've had to learn different things. And like, you learn as you go. You don't know everything. Once you've gone through it once, you like, you've got some experience, but the same problem next time doesn't necessarily mean that you give the same solution, you'll get the same outcome. So using people that are experienced around you and working with them is like, it's pretty invaluable.

Yeah, I think you said that with your role, you know, it was really fun and maybe wasn't something you could do anymore, but all the skills you got from there must be such a steep learning curve that you still use to this day. And I guess now that you're actually managing, you multinational brand, it's really helpful to maybe understand everybody in their team and say, I've been there, you know, I've done that.

Yeah, I think so. It gave me the opportunity to work in multiple different departments, which is invaluable, and that's what big corporates— like, the benefits of big corporates, especially through graduate programs, you get the opportunity to do that for short stints, which builds that experience. You tend to get really good training or some really good foundational training, which again is invaluable, and you also see how big business operates and how they do things. In a way that works for shareholders and, you know, ultimately key commercial metrics. So it gives you a good foundation, but you need to figure out, are you the corporate person that wants to, you know, work through that, or, you know, are you more entrepreneurial and you want to move a bit quicker and you don't want to have quite so much red tape and people limiting what you can do through process systems and decision-making processes and stuff like that as well.

So So yeah, and in your career there's been a lot of different times you'll jump into a different company for a different challenge, and yeah, I'm always curious how someone's, you know, train of thought leads them to thinking, okay, now's the right time to do it. Um, I guess in those early stages it was just a hustle mentality, just look for the best opportunity, but then you have to become a bit more strategic with it. Yeah, to get to, you know, where you are now. So yeah, yeah, a bit of advice to graduates on you know, when do you think is the right time? How do you know, yeah, that's the right time to move on to the next job?

Yeah, honestly, one of the biggest things for me is if you're no longer learning, I think that's probably quite a good sign that you're ready for the next thing. Or you're no longer feeling stretched, you're slightly out your comfort zone, that's quite a good sign that actually you— and you're doing it comfortably and you're performing really well, it's probably a sign that you've reached the stretch capacity of that role and you're ready to take a a bigger step. So that was quite important. There was also, honestly, like, finances were really important to me, so I wanted to go and do bigger roles where I'd get a bigger income or bigger bonus because I had a young family and I needed to provide and support for them, and I was the primary carer. So that was a big motivator for me. And then I wanted to work— when I took different roles, I've very deliberately taken very different roles each time. So, you know, working in brands and then working in commercial, then working in people leadership then working in like significant commercial roles where I was looking after £120 million of business, to then going into like an international sales role. So then it's not just, you know, one piece of one customer, it's then multiple markets. And then I've gone into like setting up companies, so it's everything from like entity setup, financing, infrastructure, operations, like, you know, systems, processes, tools, you know, how you literally set it up from scratch to go forwards, to then going into chief executive roles where You know, it's everything. You are literally trying to do everything, strategic direction of company all the way through to execution to grow business and brand and deliver value for shareholders. But you— I've learned new things every single time I've gone through it. And then into consultancy. So as my career has progressed, I've then gone, actually, I've got a really good knowledge base. How do I then use that knowledge base to then share that with other brands and businesses? So then that's opened up a range of different non-executive roles or consultancy roles where I've helped other brands and businesses grow and scale off the back of it. And like, I've worked for, like, I've worked for a company in the paint industry. I know nothing about paint, you know, but the competencies of what I've got of how to grow and build brands and businesses, it still applies, you know, within a different sector. You know, I've worked in, uh, for a retailer, which is different to being brand side. Um, you know, I, I'm now a shareholder in a couple of different wine businesses and a shareholder in a distribution company through the experiences that I've got. And All of these experiences have led to new opportunities, and back to your original point around mentors and networking, finding the right people within your career. And I went for who's fucking smart, who's got some really good experience, who can I learn from, where have I got gaps and where have they got strengths, and worked with them. And I've had informal ones and I've had more formal ones as well where I've gone, actually, these are some things that I want to get from this relationship 'Is that okay with you?' And you set some goals and milestones, and then after time you can then go, 'Actually, we've achieved those, you know, really appreciate the time,' and they've loved it and they've helped, and they move on and they help someone else. And, you know, I've now found myself in a fortunate position where I can now mentor people, you know, through the experiences that I've got. But being with great people— I was given some great advice once by someone I worked for, and it was like, 'Go and work for someone who's really smart and they'll go places,' and ultimately they'll either take you or it's going to open up an opportunity for you to step into that as well. And she was still the best boss I ever had to this day, absolutely, you know, incredible and super smart, very switched on, very successful. And like, I loved working for people who were great. Conversely, I've really struggled in my career working with people who I knew are smarter than as well. That is a tricky situation to manage for any any employee coming through it, because you're then into kind of managing them, you know, upskilling them, managing your workload, maybe teams that work for you, and trying to manage things like your emotions as you're going through that, because decision-making isn't quite as it should be, you know, especially as a, you know, a young man coming through business, you know, you've got some relics making decisions that aren't necessarily based on like social norms, you know, that are going through society at that point in time. So you try to manage all of those things as you go through it as well, but just like learning, like just capacity for learning and stretch for learning, it's just so important.

And what's interesting there is that you're talking about learnings within your career, within a job, but you also in 2021 made the decision to go back to university, or, you know, do a course to, yeah, learn more, challenge yourself at none other than the University of Cambridge. So I guess What was the thought process there? Because you already learned so much in your jobs, but maybe it was a point in your career where you felt more stagnant, like, because you'd learned so much and you just wanted to keep pushing yourself forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am a big believer that if you're not trying to move forwards, like, you can get quite stagnant. You have to get the balance right because otherwise you can overstretch yourself, overcapacity, and then that actually creates other challenges, you know, well-being, mental health, you know, so there's a balance in there. But for me, I went to Cambridge University because I wanted to learn more about sustainability. So they ran some courses which you can run, you can study remotely. I self-funded it, my company didn't pay for it for me. That was quite painful, but it was also, it's a good learning opportunity. So I did that and that helped me. And then, you know, I was CEO of the world's most ethical soft drinks company. We literally won the award for it, and we were then in the top 5% of B Corps, which is a accreditation across a range of different kind of categories that it measures your company, but it's all about actually your company is trying to be not just for profit but with some purpose that's higher than just generating bottom-line income. So I wanted to go and learn more about that space. I felt like I had quite good knowledge anyway, but to have that backup through someone, someone like as credible as the University of Cambridge, just felt like a really good thing to do. So it was hard though, like You're trying to manage like family, finances, CEO role, and studying, but I guess you have to take that sacrifice to kind of progress as well.

Yeah, and on this podcast we like to, you know, focus a lot on that jump from university into your first graduate job and how you approach that, but I think one thing that's also really important to me is sort of making yourself aware of what's to come later on in your career, and I think one thing that happens within corporates or any company is that your success in a role can often earn you a managerial role within the company. That's normally the progression, right? You become an account manager or a senior manager or something, and sometimes that's not an easy step to make. And I think management is a really tricky thing. Like, even myself, you know, in the startup space, having to like build a team, you know, it's difficult to know how to manage people. And obviously I think what you're saying, you're making learning, so you've just got to learn yourself. That's okay when it's just, just you, right? Like, you confirm that. But when it's other people that you're responsible for, I guess there must be a lot of things that you've learned along the way and how you'd like to manage. And, uh, so how has that left you now, you know, managing, yeah, again, a massive company like this? How would you like people to perceive your management style?

Yeah, so I think it's, I think it's important to recognize that, like, you're not fully defined at any stage. You're constantly progressing and learning. As a manager, you get things wrong, and like, I think what's really important for when you get things wrong is you recognize that you've got it wrong, you address that, and then you actually try and correct either your behavior or actions, or you help someone else correct theirs, you know. So it ultimately is driving performance and culture in the right way. I think my early stages, I think the first significant— actually, it was my first significant role. I was running the Southwest team for Coca-Cola, and it was, yeah, 80-odd people, layers and layers of teams. And that was— you were then trying to get this balance between, like, you need to inspire and lead because people need to buy into who you are. You need to be strategic and commercial because you need to deliver ultimately results, but you need to have, like, empathy and understand, you know, People have very different things going on in their lives at different times and different needs and wants and at different levels of support and competency. So you're trying to take all of these variables and then try and set out a philosophy of how do you want to lead people. So, you know, do you want to be a really empathetic leader, or do you want to be like a really directive leader, or do you want to actually work with your team so that you coach them so they come up with the solutions and you're a high autonomy leader? So you're trying to figure out What type of leader do you want to be? And then ultimately, what that leadership delivers in terms of results, because in all companies it always comes down to, are you delivering the results?

Yeah.

So, and it gets to a stage within your career where quite often those results aren't within your control, like you have to deliver results for other people. So if you have to deliver results for other people, you're then going, right, how do I motivate and inspire? How do I help them be the best version that they can be so ultimately achieves what we need to as part of this big strategic plan that you've got in place. And it's a journey, like, you know, I've had some people who I've employed and built teams around, and it's been phenomenal. Like, the team that I work with now, I've just— I absolutely love and adore them. They are fantastic human beings, but they are incredibly competent and very professional and very good at what they do. And it's nice when you can get a mix between that because you really enjoy work, you know, off the back of it, But conversely, I've also had some shockers. Like, I've recruited some people, brought them into companies, and like, there is no better way of saying this, but like, it's better to have a hole than an asshole in your team. Like, it's just, if you get a bad apple that joins a team, it can be really poisonous and it can spread, and that can create a really negative culture and Let's dig a bit deeper into that then.

Obviously you are bringing people into your team and recruiting people, and yeah, that's no easy feat either, but what would you say at this stage you look for in a graduate or a more entry-level role into your company?

Yeah, like culture fit, so you know, will that person fit within the team dynamic that we've got already? You know, will people enjoy working with them? you know, could I, do I want to work with them, do I want to have a beer with them, or, you know, go out for a walk or a coffee, or, you know. So it's less about experience at that stage, it's more about like, is this person going to be a great human being to work with, and are they going to add to the team rather than take away from the team. And then you go through the usual stuff, you know, it's like competency-based behaviours, experience, you know, Intelligence, you know, to a certain degree, you know, it's an attitude, like, it's probably the single biggest thing, like, outside of that. If people have got the right attitude to learning, they can have no experience. I've got a lady that works for me now and who is phenomenal, and she had no experience in the, in the job that she's in right now, but is delivering well above and beyond, like, probably most people that would be in that role. Because she's got the right attitude and she's got the right competency-based behaviours, which then means that everything else you learn and you can grow into. But if you haven't got like that attitude and competency for learning, it's pretty difficult as a manager to then— because you can't do it for people, you can only kind of like open opportunities or provide them with like, I'll open that door for you, do you want to go through it? So yeah, it's pretty important.

Yeah, and I think, I mean, I love that. First of all, I think if every company was like that, the world would be a better place if that was the reasoning and morals behind why they'd hire someone. But I think there'll be someone listening to this right now that's applying to loads of different graduate jobs, and the email they keep getting back is, you've not got enough experience in this field for what is more or less an entry-level job. And I think that leaves you in a position where you think, okay, what is the best time how do I— should I spend my time at university? Is it just like becoming a good person that is, you know, functional maybe in the house and people like to get on with, and you know, this is what I'm hearing, it would make me good in the workplace, but then like balancing that with actually getting tangible skills that you can use in your job, I guess it's a bit of a minefield.

Yeah, it's— listen, it's very tricky right now everywhere, you know, we've gone through a global pandemic, there was a financial crisis, you know, prior to that, you know, cost of living right now, it's a really, really tough time for lots of people, but there are opportunities out there as well. And, you know, I'd always say don't be discouraged by getting knocked back. Like, I've had so many nos and rejections in my career, and it's not done me any harm. Like, you know, I've learned from them, I've progressed, Sometimes it's been the best thing that it's not come off, but it's tough, but I think you've got to like take some of those on the chin and just don't let that knock you back, like keep trying, keep being persistent. And then in terms of the like the experience part of that, I'd hope most people, and maybe this isn't the case, but I'd hope most people are pre-thinking ahead, you know, if you're going through university, hoping you're trying to build some form of experience whilst you're going through it, not just going through university then expecting to get a job. You know, on £50,000-60,000 at the end of it because you've got no experience. I worked in H&M in a retail store, and I worked in John Lewis, and I worked in Next Retail, and like, I did a range of different things going through university just so I like had some experience coming into those interviews. So I'd worked with people and I'd worked with customers, and I'd figured out, do I like sales or do I like operations? Or so I think trying to make sure you're gaining experience as you go is it is an important thing, but it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all either. Like, I'd employ attitude over experience, not in every single role. Like, if you've got no experience and want you to be a CFO, probably not a good idea. But like, if you've got no experience, you're coming into an entry-level sales role, but you've got the right attitude, I can teach you, you can learn, and you can go and do a better job than people who've been in sales, not a problem at all. So maybe then being selective with like the brands that you approach or the sectors you want to go into or the companies you want to work for and just figuring out do they fit your own value set, are you going to be proud to work there, are you going to be passionate about working for that business or not, and I think those things just come through in interviews. Once you get into an interview you've obviously got to do the best job that you can to represent yourself, but be yourself as well, like don't pretend to be someone you're not because that doesn't end well either.

Yeah, no, I found it interesting what you were saying there about, you know, sort of taking on nos and rejections, because even though it might look like everything has been plain sailing in your career, like going to all these amazing brands, like clearly it's not the case, and there is a lot of confusion and, you know, rejections to mentally get over. But I think a big thing for your ability to actually ride those is kind of your why and your motivation for why you want to go into industry or why you want to achieve in your career. And I guess, yeah, for you it's interesting, your journey, like at one point it was very much like maybe fueled by your family, um, and, and things like that. Um, but you can't be solely reliant on that, right? Like, because loads of people have that, whether it's like, you know, there's a chip on their shoulder because they come from a disadvantaged background, they want to prove themselves to the world, or, or maybe the complete opposite and they have a parent who's achieved everything and they're never going to quite do it. But For you, what do you think really, if you could try and put down your like work ethic and like ability to want to actually understand and speak to people and learn, where does that come from?

Yeah, um, it's gonna sound super cliché, so, but it— I've got 3 boys and it comes from providing opportunities for my kids that I never had. That's the single biggest motivator, um, like when you get— when you bear it down to like where's your core motivation coming from, is to provide opportunities for my children so that they have the opportunity to go and live the best fulfilled life that they possibly can do. I can't do it for them, but hopefully I can help open a few doors for them and help coach them to get there. And, you know, so that's— that is the single biggest reason. Like, outside of that, you then go, actually, you know, I've got a passion for sport and travel and culture and food. And, you know, you need to earn a certain level of money in order to be able to go and live the lifestyle that you want. So then you're trying to find roles and jobs that help, you know, fit who you are and your identity and what you want to achieve and progress and learn, but then equally provide a financial level of stability that gives you the freedom to go and live a life that you want to live. And, you know, that has been a big one for me, you know, and I've been to some incredible places that I just, I'm forever grateful for off the back of it. And then there's the inner athlete, yeah, the dathlete, the dad. The, yeah, the, I guess, that competitive nature that was built into me from my sporting background as well. Like, I always wanted to— where can I get to? How far can I go? How far can I achieve? And I've sort of found every time I've done a role, like, I've gone into it and been like, oh shit moment, like, can I actually do this? In some roles. And then towards the end of those roles, I've gone, I don't even know what I was worried about. Like, I've worked through that, and it was you know, put me out my comfort zone. I've learned a lot, I've made some mistakes, I've learned, and I'm ready for the next one that's going to stretch me and the next one that's going to stretch me. And I, you know, I've just been sort of building that stretch competency, um, and being— and I think that comes from like that competitive sports background.

And even on that, with the sporting background, is that I guess there's an element of, you know, if you're playing hockey and you're given a really hard pass or a ball, whatever, you don't have time to think, you kind of just gotta do it, right? And I think that's an interesting— I mean, I was never good enough to consider any kind of career in sport, but yeah, there must be— there'll be people listening to this as well that have put a lot of their eggs in the basket of going to university to pursue a sport or anything. And what would be your advice to them? And sort of, you know, maybe like acknowledging, oh, it's not because you're crap or you didn't try hard enough, but yeah, you know, actually taking everything that was amazing from what you did in that time and then applying it to your next stage in life?

Yeah, listen, the first thing I'd say is like, follow your dream. So if you are an athlete listening to this podcast and you are an aspiring athlete or you want to achieve some form of professionalism within a sport, follow it. Don't give up on it. Follow that dream to the point where you then recognize maybe that dream won't come true, but don't like, don't sacrifice, I would say, like follow that dream. And I think most athletes listening to this will get that. But be smart with it as well. I still worked, I still built other experience outside of playing sport at that point in time because I knew if it wasn't going to work out the way that I wanted it to, I needed to have some form of a fallback plan as well. So be smart with it, but don't sacrifice your dream and goal. I think, you know, Mike Meldisoni, he's going to turn 18 and he's a cyclist and he's done very, very, very well. We actually live in New Zealand now and he came third at the road nationals for cycling and like 4 years ago he wasn't a cyclist and now he's at like the top level for cycling for his age in New Zealand and he wants to go on and be a professional cyclist. I've got no idea if he can be a professional cyclist, I know nothing about cycling, but I'm like, mate, if that's your dream, go and follow it, follow it as far as you can follow it and if you can build a career from that, amazing. and if you can't, just make sure that you're building platforms around you, that you've got other options once you come out the other side as well. And it's just being smart with it, I think, that's all.

Yeah, and so far in this interview you've given like what I find a really refreshing but also sensible outlook on how to find your dream career and pursue it, and you know, actual tangible advice on how you can do that. But while I've got someone who's, you know, part of one of the best marketing companies in the world, I think I want to delve a little bit into marketing, all things marketing, and, and what maybe that industry looks like and how you actually stand out as a brand. Um, so maybe this is more for the founders out there, um, looking to resemble the steps of Liquid Death. I think what you've done is so niche as a, as a company, it can't be replicated, but there must be like learnings or that people can take from being bold and just doing what you think will work instead of necessarily trying to be a clone of everyone else in business.

Yeah, totally. And, um, listen, the credit goes to Mike and Andy and Dan and Greg and the various people within Liquid Death that are responsible for creative. They've done an incredible job. The content that we put out, the campaigns that we put out, um, and the level of engagement we get off the back of that is just phenomenal, and it's just so disruptive. So if you're a founder listening to this podcast, the reason Liquid Death has been so— one of the reasons it's been so successful is it's disruptive. It ripped up the rule book on how you can market. I mean, we've literally— we drive around a van in London, it's got severed heads with an axe, you know, driving around. Like, most corporate companies are too afraid to go anywhere near that sort of stuff. So if you're a founder or an entrepreneur, don't be boring. Like, yeah, don't create another brand that's like, you know, health, wellness, this, and we— it looks beige and, you know, it's like, don't be boring. Try and be disruptive, because ultimately people are looking for innovation and they're looking for disruption and they're looking to be entertained and engaged. And that's what Liquid Death did so well. It was a social-first brand, so talking to people on the internet, creating content, a bit like what Red Bull did years and years and years ago. So just, yeah, don't be boring, try and be disruptive, try and figure out what your unique selling point is going to be. Also recognize that you may be not going to have all the answers, but that's okay. Starting or like getting something there is better than trying to make it too perfect as you get there. And being disruptive around campaigns is, is important because you don't have big budgets, you know, as a new startup, you don't— you're not awash with loads and loads of cash, so you need to find a way that you're going to generate eyeballs on your brand quickly for the least amount of money. So, you know, social media, media through PR, you know, some own-channel work, or maybe some paid spends through Amazon where you're getting the benefit of like sales but also awareness, but you've like disruption, I just think is the single, the single, that's the keyword I would use for Liquid Death. It's just been so disruptive that, and like quite antagonistic. Yeah, you just like on purpose, because if you don't like it, you're going to talk about it as well.

Similar to like Dude Wipes.

I think the, the single biggest learning you can take from Liquid Death is disruption. Like Mike, our founder, took a fundamentally boring category in water and made it disruptive. Like, you know, to do that and create a global unicorn brand off the back of what is effectively a commoditized, you know, product, albeit, you know, there's different issues with water around the world which we won't go into, but it was disruptive. You know, he created a name, a vision, a brand, a story, a community. He created content that has been disruptive time and time and time again, and that level of disruption has got earned media, eyeballs on brand, um, north of, yeah, 7 million followers through Instagram and TikTok. And the level of reach that we've got as a brand off the back of that disruption is just huge, you know, because I mean, it's water. Like, some of our products are just water, you know, and it's a very good quality water, but it's not so different to other water products, you know. The source is different, the pH level might be different, but, you know, it's not fundamentally different. But it's the disruption of brand So if founders are listening to this, I'd be thinking, okay, from a brand perspective, am I disruptive enough that I'm going to get enough earned media on my brand and enough awareness of my brand? Because your atypical, um, your atypical brand would be like awareness, consideration, purchase, and then you drive advocacy. And then the more people you get into the funnel and you keep going, the bigger, the bigger it gets over time. So, but the awareness bit is when most brands struggle with to start off with. Especially new brands, because no one knows you even exist. So if you're disruptive, you'll generate that level of awareness because people will want to talk about you. That can be disruptive because they don't like you, and that can be disruptive because they really do like you as well. So, but yeah, disruption I think would be the single biggest thing. Love it.

And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is, you know, when you first went to Exeter trying to pursue becoming a professional athlete, you might have had a certain idea of what a successful career would look like, and fast forward with all the different jobs you've worked and different roadblocks along the way, you must have a different idea of what a successful career looks like. So yeah, what is your definition of success in a career?

Yeah, I think for me it's changed over time. So I think in my earlier years it was is, you know, building a career where I can generate an income to support family. You know, now I've got to a place where my career where it's less actually that, you know, the finances are great, but it's more about am I going to enjoy the job that I do? Do I enjoy working with the people I want to work with? Is it something that I'm passionate about that I can add value to that I'm, you know, and especially post-COVID, you know, being a CEO through a pandemic any CEOs out there that went through the pandemic, I feel you. Like, that was the hardest period of time to be a CEO. So to come out the other side of that, I really just wanted to enjoy work again. So, you know, that became my driving factor in this last role versus, you know, what my factor was at the beginning. And what success looked like has changed throughout that dynamic as well. But for me, it was, you know, if look at it holistically, it was, you know, financial freedom to support family and have opportunities that we want to. It was learning capability, um, that I would be stretched and continue to not be bored. And, um, yeah, I could just keep progressing professionally. And then it was working with great brands. And then it went from being like just working on great brands, I actually wanted to work for brands that made a difference. So if you look at the first part of my career, like Coca-Cola, yeah, not overly proud of working for that brand. You know, they do some incredible things, but equally, you know, they have done some things that aren't great. And then you work through that. I've worked for plant-based beverage companies, I've worked for B Corp companies, I've worked for companies that have like ethics, sustainability, health and wellness, and I've tried to progress a career where I go, actually, I can work for great brands that aren't fucking the planet, that I'm enjoying, you that I can add value to, and I have an income that allows me the freedom to do what I want to do, and it's been great. And like, I feel proud with the work that I do, and I enjoy what I do, which is a great place to be, rather than like, if you're not enjoying it, like, fucking try something new, you know.

Yeah, that's great. And I think my favorite thing about that is it is a pretty attainable definition of success. Like, you're not going to be forever chasing that, and it seems that you've sort a lot of things out of your life, but I'm sure, as you say, you'll never stop learning and want to progress. So hey, thanks so much for coming on.

No, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, it'd be amazing.

Thank you, thank you very much.