Charlotte Steggall, HR Manager @ Hutchison Ports

Hey everyone, I'm Ingmar. I'm your host for today's today's episode of the Gradual Guide podcast. And I'm delighted to have Charlotte with me here today. She's the creator of the Hiring Gen Z newsletter, and she's very passionate about early careers. We'll learn a lot with you today.

Thank you. It's really great to be here.

Amazing. Let me start with your own personal journey. So I looked on your LinkedIn, and then I went all the way, scrolled all the way down, and I saw kind of a fascination for the Japanese culture. So I think you studied Japanese language or translation in your bachelor's?

Yeah, so I grew up in the countryside in the UK, in Suffolk, a county called Suffolk. And when I grew up, like, I hadn't really met other people from other countries before. I was really quite sheltered. And then just one day a teacher pulled me aside and said, "Hey, there's going to be 40 Japanese high school students." I was about 13, I think. There's gonna be 40 Japanese high school students coming to our town in the summer. Do you want to come and represent our school and come and be an ambassador? So I was like, yeah, sure, why not? And from that point, like, I was on this sort of like track. I really loved it.

Mm-hmm.

And I loved meeting people from other countries. But I think the thing for me was that they were trying so hard in English. Mm-hmm. And I couldn't speak, I mean, I did very basic French at school, but I couldn't speak any other languages, so I really wanted to like study Japanese and like meet them halfway and like speak to them in Japanese the way that they spoke to us in English. So, so yeah, from there I went and did Japanese at university. I was the first of my family to go to university. A lot of people told me, people like us don't go, you know, you're not academic, people like us don't go to university. So it was—

Who told you that?

Just— Teachers, parents, family members, like it's, yeah, it wasn't really expected of me at all.

Wow. And what drove you to still go to university?

I just really wanted to study Japanese. Like I really wanted to see the world outside of the UK. Yeah. And it was brilliant. And I think I, a theme with me is that when people tell me that I can't do something, I just go and do it because when I just finished studying Japanese, I went on, there's this graduate program called the JET Program where they take like graduates from mostly English-speaking countries and you're put in the countryside in Japan in a job. I was in a school and I was doing that for a few years and then a friend of mine had just finished up at Nintendo and he was like, oh, I made a huge mistake, I didn't, you know, I shouldn't have left, like it was really great. And I was, oh, okay, that sounds like a good experience. And he said, "Yeah, yeah, people like you wouldn't be able to go there." So I was like, "Oh, they're recruiting right now. Let me see." So I passed the test.

Oh, wow.

So I moved to Germany for 3 years and did that.

I think you worked in Frankfurt.

Yeah, in Frankfurt. It was really great. But by that point, I'd been abroad for 6 years and as much as I did want to see the world and it was brilliant, I was like, "Okay, now it's time to like come home and take what I'd learned abroad." apply it in the UK.

Maybe to go back to your studies, when you chose to study Japanese and translation, were you already looking to do it because you, you, I want to be a Japanese translator in the future, or just because you were interested and passionate about it?

I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to teach in a school, and that's what I did when I was on the JET program. I was teaching in a school, and I thought like, oh, this is me, this is I'll just do this forever, this will be it. I was actually there in 2011 when the tsunami happened and that was like, I was quite far from the, you know, the centre of the earthquake and stuff, but we still felt the earthquake and I was near the sea, so there was a bit of water that came in, but it wasn't like, didn't damage anything. But even so, that whole experience and the way that like the Japanese way of coping with things is just to like ignore them and carry on as normal. And for me, it was really hard for me to like, yeah, I suddenly saw a massive culture shock, I guess.

Interesting.

And I thought, yeah, I think it's about time for me to go somewhere else. So that's when the Nintendo thing came up.

That's when you— okay, that's when you went to Nintendo. And maybe just to zoom in, because a lot of our listeners are currently at university and They're trying to decide which kind of career opportunities, jobs to go for. Back in the days, how was the market like and how did that, I mean, it just kind of happened by chance, someone told you, hey, you can do it, and you're like, oh, wait, applications are open, let me try. Do you remember how many companies you applied to in that phase, or was it just that one that you landed then?

So it's actually quite interesting because I graduated in 2009, and obviously 2008 was when the economic crash was, so there weren't a whole load of jobs available. And certainly, like, I think these days a lot of graduates are aiming towards, like, consultancy work and stuff. I didn't even know what a consultant was. Like, that wasn't, you know, I'm from a very working-class background. Like, people didn't— my family didn't even work in offices, let alone, like, you know, nice companies in London. So that didn't even— I didn't even consider any of those kinds of things. I only applied for the JET Programme, and for me, it was always my plan, and I did a lot of research, and I spoke to a lot of people. The process is quite long. You have to write an essay, you have to do— I did an interview in Japanese, my very first graduate interview that I did. I went to the embassy, did it in Japanese, and I trained for like—

Oh, wow.

Studied for ages to be able to like do it at a high level. So I really went for it. If I hadn't have got it, then I would've, I don't actually know what I would've done, but there weren't many jobs back home, but there was this massive opportunity where they take literally hundreds of graduates every year, so I thought, well, it's a good opportunity.

Interesting, and working for Nintendo and, you know, an organisational culture that might be a bit different from other cultures, you used to. How was that different and how did you adapt to it? How did you find adapting to it?

So Nintendo is very German, actually, even though it's a Japanese company. And I think actually comparing the two countries, I had more culture shock in Germany than I did in Japan because I think—

I can imagine, I'm from Germany.

I think because it was like, oh, you know, Germany and the UK, we kind of look similar and like, you know, there's a lot of like Germanic things within the UK too. So I thought, well, maybe it'll be okay. But there were so many things, and I think Germany's very different these days, but it was like, you know, the supermarket closed at 5 o'clock. So, yeah. And you can't do anything on a Sunday, right? Yeah. So for me, and it's not different, by the way. It's not different. Really?

It hasn't changed.

Really?

I mean, I live in Munich and things are very Traditional.

Really?

Yes.

It's— one of my colleagues had brought her partner, her boyfriend at the time, they're married now. And it was so funny because like we would just use him to like if we needed to like to pick up something from the post office or like pick up something from the shop, like he would just be running around Frankfurt while we were at work. It was so great having him there. But I think like it was really regimented and we had like a works council. I learned so much about works council life, whereas like in Germany, if you're like Recruiting, for example, and let's say like I've decided I'm going to recruit you, I have to prove why I didn't select any of the other people, and you have to like prove everything, which is great for fairness and equality. We also like tapped in and tapped out all the time. So if you worked more than, I can't remember how many hours, maybe like 7, 7 and a half hours, maybe 8 hours in a day, like the computer like had a thing flashing like go home, like you need. So it was great. The work-life balance was very, very good. So I wouldn't say it was a struggle, but I think life in Germany was a little bit different than what I expected. Yeah.

And then you went back to London, I think to Sony.

Yes, I was at Sony for a year. I was at— because I didn't know what I wanted to do because I was like, you know, I can speak Japanese, I can do some translation. There wasn't really anything in terms of like video games translation in the UK at that time. So I basically said to agencies, like recruitment agencies, I'm here, I can do basic tasks, I can speak fluent Japanese, what can I do? So I had a personal assistant job at Sony. I was terrible. I was really bad. They were, yeah, I had two, I had a director that I looked after and then he switched to another one who was a little bit more Western in his way of working. But the first one was very Japanese. So it was a lot of like making tea and like, oh yeah, yeah, lots of like etiquette. So like if you're in a, if you're serving people within a meeting, the people furthest away from the door are the most senior. So you've got to serve them first. And like there's a special level of Japanese that you've got to learn and like it's very complicated. So it was all very much that kind of stuff. But then when the new guy came in, it was very Western and it was a lot more of like business analysis and stuff like that, which was interesting, but I was still terrible at it.

There's so many rules. I mean, I know this is about Japanese culture as well. Is this, if you gift something to your boss, that's not a thing, right? I mean, in the UK or in Germany, it's sort of a thing, but is it a thing in Japan?

No, it was. And in fact, I remember this one time I went to, I made friends with some of the chefs from a Michelin-star restaurant called The Fat Duck. I think it's The Fat Duck in Maidenhead. And they'd given me a load of these cookies and like they were matcha cookies. They were the best thing I've ever, like I could never have afforded to eat at this restaurant, but they were the best thing ever. So I had some leftover, so I was like, oh, I'll bring them in for my boss. Like he's, you know, he might like to eat one. And he was really weird about it. Like he didn't feel comfortable at all. And in general, in Japan, when you're given a gift, you have to like refuse it 3 times before you accept it anyway.

Oh, okay.

And you can't really open it in front of the person who gave it to you. So you just put it on the side and when they've gone, you open it. Yeah. So it's really weird. It's very hard to like understand those, all the different rules and stuff.

And that role you were for, I think around a year or a bit more.

Yeah, it was, it was basically just to do a job and I didn't, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't, and this is why I really, you know, this is how I came to be where I am now because I thought like, how do people understand their strengths and their skills and what they can do? And like, you know, careers guidance wasn't it. We had it at school, but it wasn't necessarily, you know, and it obviously I'd left school a long time ago by that point as well. So like, who is there? I think these days you have things like TikTok and you have like lots of resources online that you can use. But this was like what? 2012, 2013-ish, there wasn't any kind of stuff on social media to help.

So, yeah, the external factors weren't kind of maybe less supportive. It was a bit harder. And then you've kind of found your way. And after the Samsung role, what was the next destination?

So I'd applied to so many roles and I'd done, I'd worked with so many different recruiters. I was like, 'That looks kind of cool, like it looks like kind of a good job.' Like, I didn't, at that point, I didn't really understand what a recruiter did. I was picturing it as like, it's like a matchmaker but for jobs, and you can like find these candidates and match them with their perfect jobs, and that just sounds delightful. So I went and worked in an agency, a recruitment agency in the pharmaceutical, um, in this, yeah, in the pharmaceutical sector. I lasted like 2 months, that was horrible. Like, it just, at the end of every day, had stand up and say how many phone calls you'd made, how many emails you'd sent, and like it was very much a numbers game. Um, you really— it was like on, on, on all the time. And I think now in my career I, I can bring that energy, but while I was still like trying to figure things out, it was— I mean, I have no problem cold calling. I've done a lot of cold calling through my career. Like, that wasn't the, the, the, the thing. I think it was just like how how work is measured. And in an agency world, it's measured by how many calls you made, how many emails you made, how many connections you've made. Um, and I just really couldn't see the bigger picture with it. So yeah, I didn't last long.

So is there a very sales-heavy role?

Sales-heavy, yeah.

And, uh, we actually see that— I mean, London is very known for being the biggest market for recruitment agencies. Um, I think maybe even globally, but I know for sure in Europe. Um, And we see that they're also opening up more and more positions for students. Like on Hustle, we can see so, so many openings for recruiters.

Yeah.

Would you say most of those companies, you have this kind of, this really, that it's, hey, this is a sales job, you get out there, you cold call people, you cold email people?

I think it has a high attrition. Those jobs have a high attrition. The people who do make it do really well. And I know that, I know quite a few, like, people who are in the agency world who are really fantastic about at it. I've known people who've gone from agency to internal who are really brilliant, but it does, it does churn a lot of people. And a lot of these jobs, I think it attracts graduates because you usually the salaries aren't very good, like they're like maybe £22-23k, which for London is horrendous. But then there's this promise of commission, like you can earn up to £40k. And so like a graduate's like, I have all of this energy, and sure, if I put mind to it, I can do whatever. But in actuality, like cold calling, like when I was doing that, I was basically cold calling German companies and trying to get through the receptionist to try and get to, you know, some manager to say, hey, do you want to recruit like an oncology expert or something? And no matter how much you put your mind to it, sometimes that just like people just don't want to talk to you, you know? But it's good. I think everyone should do something like that because now that I'm very much on the receiving end of those calls, like I always have empathy for, you know, if people are really silly with how they reach out to me, then I'm going to be silly back. But like, by and large, if people are just trying to do a job, then, you know, you can't knock that. There's a lot of people who are stuck in those types of roles.

And it's good that those were 2 months, but only then 2 months, right? And then you quickly knew, hey, this is not fit for me. Let's, let's move on. And then the next destination was it— was that already the university that you worked for?

No, so I went into— that's when I got in. So I moved back home, um, and I found this job with an apprenticeship recruitment company. Um, so they were a training provider. Um, and I was like, this is great because it's recruitment, but it's also like helping young people get on their path. And I didn't really— that was like, what, 20 2014, 2015-ish, and apprenticeships were just— it was like the heyday of apprenticeships, like it was just getting off the ground. There was really— there was a real big buzz around it, and it was brilliant to be in an apprenticeship provider during those times. I would basically go into schools, talk to them about alternative routes to university, um, and then I'd have students on my books. I would train them up on how to do interviews. I would train them up in how to like what to understand from a business. Like, even I remember this, there's this one person who was like, I really wanna like bring my earphones into the office and just listen to music. And I was just like, okay, here's how to have a conversation with your boss about it. And just say, okay, what's the vibes in the office? Like, how do you, you know, is it okay to do it? Just teaching them like how, even things like how do you ask for a sick day or how do you, you know, all those types of things.

How do you ask for it, actually? I'm wondering now, how can I ask my boss, hey, I want to wear headphones?

I think like it's having that conversation, just say, look, you know, it depends, it depends on the environment. So like at Nintendo, because it was very intense, we used to listen to music all the time. We had our headphones on. It was like very much get your head down. But some other offices are a lot more chatty or like, you know, people expect you to you know, contribute and like, you know, your boss wants to see you like actively talking with other people. So I think it's just having that conversation, just say, look, but also understanding how you work as well. Like, I definitely sometimes want to just listen to like classical music and just focus on a task. If I did that all the time, it might be seen as a bit antisocial. So knowing how to have that conversation is important, I think.

And was that also the first kind of introduction to the early career space for you?

Yeah.

First reward?

And that's what I think, for the first probably, I was there about a year, but I think during that time, every time I placed a student into an apprenticeship role, I like cried on the phone when I told them that they got the job.

That's amazing.

I was just like, I was so happy for them because like, it was just an amazing feeling. And to be able to help young people succeed and thrive, because they came in for their technical training, but then I was here to like talk to them as a big sister and just help them through if they had any, like, challenges in the workplace. It was brilliant, but it was very, like, salesy still. And, like, we still had to, you know, every time we placed an apprentice, we'd get, like, bonuses and stuff, and there were, like, targets. And sometimes you had to, like, if I was talking to a student and I knew that it wasn't necessarily the right thing for them, I still had to talk them into it because we needed to make our quota. And that didn't— the company doesn't exist anymore, so it's like— and I think These days the apprenticeship world doesn't, it isn't like that anymore, but it was during that time. But for me it didn't really feel ethical, so that's why I was only there a year. Um, but, oh, sorry, go on.

Yeah, maybe to, to connect, um, to then the university that you, that you worked for. Um, it's, it's also the space, for example, university recruitment, um, has those issues where it might get a bit unethical, where you, of course, the recruiters being paid in commissions Well, I think so.

I wasn't— when I was at the university, so I was working in a widening participation role, which means basically trying to encourage a wider range of students to come to university. And it wasn't—

yeah, I know.

Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't mean that as a recruiter.

Yeah, yeah. But no, I mean just like recruitment in that space in general. There of course are also recruiters.

Yeah, but you don't get commission in those spaces. Like, I don't know, no, I don't, I don't know any university recruiter. Oh, university recruiter as in you're recruiting people into a university, you're trying to get people to go to university. Master. Yeah, there's no like commission, not that there's, there's targets for sure, and it's a very highly pressurised, like even when I was at The Apprenticeship Company, like I would go in and do school assemblies and there would be, you're always pitted against like a university. There was me representing apprenticeships and there'd be someone from a local university and then we'd have to do like 15 minutes, 15 minutes.

I love that.

It's, wow, I just, we always had like, I had this like stat like, oh, if you choose an apprenticeship rather than a university you can earn X amount more for your lifetime. But then the university person would come up with a, oh, if you go to university, have a degree, you can earn X amount more. And it's like a battle of like stats and stuff where it's like, it really, it, you were just trying to fight for young people to try and pick your side. Yeah. And it shouldn't be like that. It should be what's right for that young person. That's true. Yeah. You know, if, if you, if you know from a young age definitely what you want to do and there's an apprenticeship pathway for that, go for it. Why waste time, right? But if you were like me and like, I was like, okay, I like Japanese, I'm not quite sure what I want to do with it, especially going to, from a countryside town into, I went to Liverpool. It was amazing and it just opened up so many doors for me and I wouldn't have had the maturity to go into a workplace even at like 18. I wouldn't have had the maturity to do that. So it wouldn't have been right for me. And there are other young people out there for whom it's not the right thing. But there's choice, right? It shouldn't be a battle.

Yeah. Maybe to pick your brains a bit, because I have you here and you're very experienced in the space, that today's job market is tough for students who are currently at university and are looking to apply to jobs. Now, we see, for example, more and more students applying to 50 or more jobs at a time. To just secure one or two interviews. Um, what are some key pieces of advice that you could give to young people on how to maybe stand out or how to go about that whole phase in general?

That's a really tough question. Um, I, I've got to admit, I, I really don't know. Like, I— so one of my previous roles, I was at a company called Kubrick, um, and I was managing the recruitment team there. We had over 100 applications a day, and we would recruit typically about 2% of those. Um, and it is tough. Like, there are absolutely very good people who are, you know, rejected from that process just because there's not— there's not space for everyone, right?

Yep.

Um, some people will reach out on LinkedIn, and I think, I think some recruiters appreciate that. I think for me, definitely, I wasn't as comfortable with that because we had a fair process, and I'd much rather— I don't want for people to like influence bias within me or my team, um, so I just want for people to go through the same process and sit the same exams and tests and stuff. Yeah, um, some, some recruiters do like that, so it's worth, you know, it's worth doing that. I think especially if you're going for one of the bigger companies, really engaging early with that company, like do they have insight days, do they have I don't know, webinars or something like that. Getting familiar with a company early on is really important, and in a way, that's kind of what I did when I applied for the JET Programme. I did it early, I connected with people, I was familiar with the recruitment team. So, doing that so you really understand. And then the other thing as well is when you're doing, especially with, there's a lot of, like, one-way interview stages these days because it is from a from an employer's side, it is quite a quick way to assess people, you know, and get those numbers down, which is— it's awful to say, but, you know, it's kind of one of the ways. One of the things that you're looking for on the other side, and it's always— by the way, people think that AI is assessing them, it's always a human. Like, there is no, there is no tool on the market with these one-way interviews where AI is assessing them, so it's always a human. By and large, what the human is looking for is, does this person understand the role? Does this person understand what they're getting into if they did get the job? And does this person actually understand what we do? So I think doing that research, again, connecting with people, really understanding the company, and then showing that within the interview is, is important. That's how you stand out, really.

There are some really great points in there, starting early, understanding the company, knowing what they do. Amazing. I wish we had more time, but we're already coming to an end.

Sure.

Is there anything else you'd like to share or give students on their way?

I think the biggest thing that I want for students to understand is don't just go for graduate programs. And I know that, you know, the big 4 graduate programs, they seem as the most, you know, the best options for students. There are some really good opportunities at smaller companies, maybe not on programs, maybe just single non-graduate roles. Really keep your options open because it's not necessarily the case that only people who go on big graduate programs are going to be successful. And don't, don't be disheartened if you get rejected from those big ones, because what will be will be, and your path will, you know, show itself to you. So even if it's not the thing that you thought you wanted, you're still going to find the path that's right for you.

I agree. I think that's a brilliant point. In Germany, we call those companies the hidden champions, some SMEs or employer brands that might be not so visible like huge brands. But when you join, you actually— they're looking for dynamic, young, innovative spirits.

Yeah.

Come in there, you get a lot of responsibilities early on, you can change things. So yeah, very much in agreement with that. Thanks so much. Thank you for coming on. I hope if you're listening, you could take something of that away. And I wish you— we wish you all the the best of success in your job search.

Thank you.