Claudia Cardinali, Strategy Director @ Great Influence

Welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Claudia. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Uh, you are the Strategy Director at Great Influence. You can start off by giving the listeners an idea of what Great Influence is and what do you do.

So Great Influence is a personal branding agency. Um, we work mainly with CEOs and founders but also leadership teams. Um, to help them build their personal brands, basically. Um, so my role is to kind of like set the direction of that, um, and kind of like help people find the gaps in the conversations that they need to be in and help them understand their best positioning, um, for the industry that they're in.

And this is a pretty new industry, right?

Yes.

When was it you became conscious that there was a career in this at all?

To be honest, I didn't know that there was when I first started the job. I kind of got into it because I was doing it for myself, and I realized quite quickly after a couple of months of just posting on LinkedIn that people were starting to message me about stuff. And then Ash, founder of Great Influence, reached out to me and slid into the DMs and was just like, "Oh, I've seen what you're posting. Would be great to chat." So I actually freelanced for a couple of months at the start, and even at that time, I didn't really like know what personal branding was as like a bigger concept. For me, it was just kind of more on the content side of things. Um, and I think over the last 4 years, it's honestly been like prolific, the growth. And I think we were just saying before, like, now every other person that I see on LinkedIn is like either understanding or becoming a personal brand manager. Um, so like the explosion in the industry has been huge over the last 12 months.

And when you were at university studying international relations at Leeds, what was your idea of your career back then? What were you thinking? Because yeah, like I said, this probably wasn't a viable career path back then.

Um, I don't know, to be honest, like, this sounds really dumb, I think, but in my head I was like, I always knew that I didn't want to do like, um, a grad scheme or something like that. Like, I always knew I wanted to do something a bit different. I didn't have any idea what that was really, and I think I remember being sat in the library, walking around, not doing any work obviously, and just like bumping into people and chatting, asking them what they were going to do or what what they're applying for, and like, I'd bump into this really smart person and they'd be like, "Oh, I'm applying for the grad scheme at Audi." Unreal. Next person I bump into, "Oh, I'm applying for a grad scheme at Audi." Next person I bump into, "Oh, I'm applying—" And I just thought like, you're all smart, you're all great, like, you're all nice, you're all intelligent, like, how do you get the job and you don't get the job? I just remember thinking like, I don't know, I don't want to do like that same thing. So I always kind of had in my head that like, yeah, something different. What that different thing was, I didn't really know at the time. Um, and I think like I definitely had the few years of like floundering around after. I always kind of had in my head that I wanted to work for a small business, I think. Um, so yeah, kind of like, I don't know, it was just like maybe the conscious choice to think about things a little bit differently at the start anyway.

And that feeling of, you know, wanting to do something different, was that a like a determined feeling or was it quite a manic-depressive feeling? Did you feel lost in that feeling? Yeah, a little bit at times.

I think everyone who's like started work or been like entering into the working world feels a bit lost at times, but it was also determined. And I think like, so I moved back home for a little bit when I was maybe 23, and I remember like I was applying for marketing jobs. So I worked in an agency for a year after uni in Leeds, um, which was interesting actually and probably set me on the path that I'm on now more so than I realized at the time. Um, but I remember applying for jobs in Birmingham where I lived, and I was just like, I don't even really want this job, but I'm just kind of going through the motions at the moment because I know I need to have a job. I know I want to do something that's maybe a little bit creative. But I actually— so I applied for maybe 20, got 5 or 6 interviews, got 2 jobs offered to me at the end. And I was like, I know if I take this, like, I'll be stuck. I'll be stuck in Birmingham because you get into the routine, you get used to a salary, like all of a sudden your life is comfortable, and I think like that's where I never wanted to be, is like comfort. And I was like, if I take this job now, I know I'll be here for the next 3, 4 years. So I made the conscious decision, I signed the contract I think, and then after that I was like, actually I'm not gonna do it. And my mum was obviously fuming, she was like, you need to get a job. But I think it was that decision in that moment, if I hadn't have done that and like literally thrown the contract in the bin, I wouldn't be where I am now. I think you need that fear a bit.

Yeah, I think a lot of careers is— it's very easy to sit and say, oh, the Grad Guide's about helping people find their dream job, but I think it's really like the allocation of the right person into the right career industry role for them. And I think for you, you know, you probably could have lived like, you know, a happy enough life in a corporate or on a grad scheme, but I mean Did you feel like that decision— I think a lot of people maybe don't do what they really want to do straight out of university. Um, what was your— yeah, what was going through your head when you were making that decision? Did you feel the significance of it? You sort of alluded to it there, right?

I think so, yeah. And I think like when you leave uni, you're so happy to get any job, you know what I mean? You're like, you've spent 3, 4 years working towards something, like the big shiny medal at the end is like entering the world of work, and everyone thinks of step one, and they think like, if I'm earning a salary, like, I owe them, like, the opp— the opportunity is amazing, like, thank you so much, like, to just for me to get paid a salary, like, thank you, thank you, thank you. And I think like, I saw a TikTok the other day— this is where I get most of my advice from these days— but it was basically saying like, think about the lifestyle that you want before you choose a job. And I think not enough people do that, and You get a little bit more in industries that are kind of more cemented in their ways. So like law, finance, things like that. You pick that when you're 18, you kind of know what you're getting yourself into. So maybe when you're entering the world of work, it's a little bit more kind of set in your mind. If you're not sure what you want to do and you get to that stage and the gates open and you're going into the workforce, pick what lifestyle you want because that's the lifestyle you could potentially have for the next 30, 40 years. And I think your mindset in that situation is typically like, I feel like I owe this company something for taking me on board because it is so difficult to get a job now and I completely understand it. But I think if you shift slightly and think like, okay, I'm making this decision not for just right now, but also for the next 10, 20 years and you set yourself on a bit of a path, I think it just changes your mindset shifts slightly. And don't get me wrong, it is such a privilege to be able to make a decision in that point. And there are so many instances where, like, I was in this case where I was like, I need a job, like any job at this point. But I think if you are lucky enough to be in a situation where you have a bit more freedom to think like, okay, like, what's the lifestyle that I want further down the line? And that's, I think, what I was thinking is like, it's a short-term sacrifice now But like long term, I know that so many people that get stuck in a career like 5 or 6 years in and they think, I'm too far down the line, whereas I think I made the decision maybe a bit earlier to go, I don't want to be stuck a few years down the line, so I'm going to make a hard decision now.

I think once you've got to that state of mind that, you know, you want to work something for your life, your— that supports your lifestyle, maybe a smaller business You then have to pick the right small business or the right startup, which I know as well is a hard task. Because hey, you joined Great Influence as a very early employee, and you just so happen to get very, well, lucky. I say lucky, but I'm not so lucky. But I, I wonder how much luck was actually, you know, how much did you de-risk that, that process? Like, what about those initial conversations with Ash made it feel like the right next step for you.

Yeah, and I think, I think there's kind of two ways at looking at it. One is luck of like meeting the right people at the right time in your life, for sure. And another part of it is like intention. And I think subconsciously, or without me really knowing at the time, like I was intentionally putting my thoughts and values out into the world by sharing my thoughts on social media. And I think again, like, I always think it's so wild to me that The biggest, one of the biggest choices that you make in your life is your career and how so many people leave that fate in the hands of other people. And I always think I want to be kind of dictating the direction of my career at all times. Whereas I think if you, or at least moving myself forward towards something all the time. Whereas if you think about it really, when people are kind of choosing their career paths and going through it, they have peak moments, and those moments are when you're actually sitting down and writing the job application is when you're projecting yourself into a new career trajectory. Whereas by actually taking the reins into your own hands and constantly, for me, working towards something on social, it's actually you're just moving yourself incrementally along in some kind of direction. Whereas if you're just filling in a job application, you send it off, you wait. Your career is then in someone else's hands in that situation. And I just thought, again, I don't want to do that. I think every decision that I've made throughout my career has been like, how do I choose what I want in this situation? And honestly, I think so many people don't. I completely hear what you're saying about small businesses and it's so difficult, but I think actually if you put yourself in the driving seat a bit more. And like, I'm biased towards this because it helped me get my job. It's also what I do. But I do think posting on social, whatever platform it is, like, again, it's just incrementally moving you forwards in a direction. Because what you do when you put out things into the world is also attracts people that think similarly to you. And I think if you are looking to join a smaller company, like, it makes sense to start putting things out into the world that are going to attract people that think similarly to you. Yeah. And fortunately for me, that person was Ash.

I think it's like it's building that reputation so that— because in a lot of jobs all you really have is a CV and one interview, and it's so painful. Like, I don't know how people do it. No, I know, because it's like, well, it's all about how can you just show off like a very matter-of-fact side of what you have done, and it's not about, you know, who you are, what you could bring. And, and I think, you know, then it comes down to, you know, the interviewer needs to have a great line of questioning. And I think, like you're saying, it's I feel like in those kind of more corporate roles, it's hard to empower yourself to take the driving seat. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. But it kind of is still, I think anything careers and even what you do, a massive part of what you do is storytelling, right? What do you think, you know, has been the importance or significance of storytelling in your career and the work you do now?

It's so easy to think like, no one cares, why is it important? But actually, there'll always be moments that are important to you. And I think that's the best way to look at it, is like, what's really important to you in your career and your history? And I think that's kind of the way that I've looked at it. And I think there's a way of looking at like building a personal brand or like sharing your story that is just like go through the motions, like tell people, this is what I did when I graduated uni, this is how I got my first job, this is— those might not be the stories that are most important to you. And I think it's like reflecting on actually what holds value to you rather than what you think people want to hear in that situation. And actually, when you do that, just by kind of proxy, you attract people again that are kind of interested in what you're saying because it clearly means more to you than something that just ticks box.

Do you feel the stigma around personal branding? And, and if so, what do you do to combat that?

Yeah, I think it's really difficult because I think personal branding has this kind of like reputation attached to it, um, and it's frustrating because I think the immediate thoughts when people think of building a personal brand is they think like shitposting on LinkedIn. Let's be honest, LinkedIn in itself already has a bad reputation as a platform, a little bit, on other platforms. Yeah, um, I'm allowed to say that. Yeah, of course, I'm not gonna, um, and I think it's difficult because like That's like general, right? And I think like, I love LinkedIn. I've been using it for the last 4 or 5 years. It's been instrumental in my career. It's been instrumental for so many people around me as well. And I think what's happening now is like a lot of people are waking up to that there's a big opportunity on this platform and it's kind of being saturated with like similarity. And I think like it's frustrating because it is so valuable and it is so useful and it still carries this little reputation that's like, oh, it's a bit cringe. Every time I tell someone what I do and I talk about LinkedIn, oh, but isn't it a bit cringe? So what? Yeah, that's literally so what? Who cares? Because it's not cringe when I'm getting opportunities that help me in my career. It's not cringe when we're getting new clients. It's not cringe when we're hiring great people.

I think also you've found your voice on it, right? Like, yeah, I think so. In the beginning, it is really hard to, to like be your authentic self with like chest and, and and write in the way that you want to because you don't know if it'll be rewarded by the algorithm or whatever.

But I think what you said there is exactly already where people go wrong. Like, don't think of the algorithm. Yeah, because already then you're trying to tick a box of something else. Like, when I, when I first started doing it, I was speaking about course life crisis and my experience leaving uni and how it was difficult. And like, at that time I was working in student marketing it was something that I had just experienced, so it was really relevant to me. And I think maybe shift the thinking from like authenticity to relevancy. And I think maybe that helps a little bit because it's like, what am I experiencing right now? Um, and instead of thinking like, how do I get 1,000 followers or 10,000 followers or 50,000 followers, I think, what am I experiencing right now and what value can I add? To people that are experiencing the same thing, whether that's sharing what I'm going through in the hope that someone relates to it and it makes them feel a little bit better, or I've actually just had this experience, I've learned a little bit about it, here's my advice. And I think like people always think they need to start big, whereas actually I think start small.

Yeah, and I think definitely that on a posting side that's true, but also as a student when I'd open the platform, I was like, why would I, why would I use it? Yeah, you're like, successful people congratulating other successful people and emojis flying everywhere, and you're like, yeah, as a student that doesn't know what they want to do, where do I fit into this whole equation? And, and I think it's hard. I mean, I struggle to even think back to when I really learned how to use it because, you know, all of a sudden it's like everything in my business, you know, I meet the best people from it, you know. I feel like I can just message anyone at this point and have some sort of chance, you know, even if I don't know them or I have no right to reach them, and I could get a response. And I think once you realize the power of it and how much you can offer, then the platform starts to make more sense and you might want to start posting, for example, right?

I think Honestly, like, hand on heart, I think students have the biggest opportunity on the platform. Or if you're really early in your career, you have the biggest opportunity on the platform because everyone wants to help people that are just starting out. And I think, like, if someone messaged me and was just like, I've just graduated uni, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do with my life, please help. Yeah, I'd be like, I've been there. And like, of course I'll help. Of course, like, if you want to chat about personal branding, whatever it is. And also everyone I know who is, like, deep in their career— we work mainly CEOs, founders— They're the people that they want to help. And I think the second that you start to see it as a tool, and what you were saying there about messaging people and building opportunities off the back of that, you have more, I think, remit and access when you're a student to be able to do that. And I think seeing it as an opportunity to build your network is probably the most important thing you can get from it, and as a space to learn. I think that's like the shift, the mental shift between platforms. Like, you go on TikTok to just scroll, you go on Insta to kind of see what everyone, what everyone is up to. And I think if you use LinkedIn as just like a scroll thing, it's way less valuable. Whereas if you use it as like, okay, like, I know that I want to get this opportunity, or I always think the best way to go about it is like, okay, I have this problem in my career Like, I do this myself. Like, I have this challenge in my career, or like this problem that I need to solve within Great Influence. Like, okay, I don't know how to do it right now, but I know people that have had this problem or would know how to do it. So I'm just gonna message them with this very specific thing and say, I have this challenge, how have you solved it? Or like, do you have any advice? And I think if you're a student, like, you have a very clear challenge, like, I wanna get a job. You have all these people that have been there and had that experience, anyone who's now got a job. And I think the pool of people that you could message or speak to is so wide, but go to them with a very clear thing. And I think if you say, I don't know, I'm trying to get a job at this specific company, message all the people in that company that have already been through the process you're going through. And I think, again, what we were saying before about putting yourself in the driving seat of your career, all the people at Google have already gone through the interview process at Google. All you have to do is send all those people at Google one message. Yeah. And it's like you're helping yourself rather than all those other people that also want to work at Google who are just sitting after they've sent their application and waiting.

Yeah, I think in addition to that, like, the career exploration side of it, like, for example, you could just walk down any street in London, you could see an office, you could see a brand that you consume every day, and you can actually find out who did the partnerships there, or, you know, who was behind the marketing for that amazing thing, and you could message them. Like, that's it.

It's crazy if you think, like, how much time people spend, like, talking about dating and on dating apps and things like that. Like, it's so intentional for the most part, whereas, like, your career isn't. And yet they're two probably of the biggest things in your life. Like, it's honestly just mind-blowing to me.

Okay, and so I get it, building a brand on LinkedIn, and, you know, we've used some examples of how students could, you know, utilize it. But then does it actually make you more employable? Like, say you didn't want to go into this, you know, strange world of startups and small businesses and you just wanted to get that corporate, you know, 2 years experience, for example. Does it help with your employability there? Yeah, 100%.

I think it helps with your employability because like you're giving yourself more value than someone else. And I think like, A, you're building your network, which is valuable to any company, to any business. And also, you're giving yourself an asset which other people might not have, which is an audience. And I think like we live in a social media-driven world now. People are vying for attention. Every company wants more eyeballs on them. And if you can sit in an interview, there's two people in an interview, you have exactly the same qualifications, you're both great, you're both nice, really personable people. You have 50,000 followers who are going to see everything that you post and they don't. Who are they going to pick? Because you're adding value to that business in a different way. And I think it genuinely does make you more employable because I think, again, you're just differentiating yourself from the competition in an area that everyone is looking for right now. And I I believe so much that companies are waking up to the value that it holds. And we speak a lot kind of like about employee-generated content and how that's so valuable now. And I'm seeing the light bulbs go on in people's heads when we're having these conversations and they're like, yes, that is something that we want to do. Yes, some people are doing it already. Yes, it's so valuable to our business. And I think if I was a student, I'd be thinking like, how do I become the most employable version of myself? And like, yes, it's effort, and yes, it takes time, and yes, you have to be really consistent with it, but like, again, you put yourself in the driving seat and like you're the person that's pushing your career forwards. And I think it's so valuable to employers to see that you also have that like drive and determination to build your own reputation in your industry.

Yeah, I think obviously I'm working in this world of early careers now somewhat. And I think it's like employer branding and how especially like big corporates appear to students has felt so outdated for so long, you know, the traditional sort of going to careers fairs and making sort of those cringy trailers that they make that doesn't resonate with students at all. Like, there is a whole new gap here to actually just, you know, I, for example, I've interviewed, um, the CEO of Fellow Studios or the managing director of Sidemen. These, these like brands where they're new, they're disruptive, innovative, but they're like making some of the most money doing some of the most impressive things, like Netflix level of quality. And yeah, I think a lot of that is down to their ability to showcase what's really like working there. And yeah, and I think, you know, I wonder what, you know, say an employee is listening to this— sorry, an employer listens to this How can they start to go about actually showcasing their culture online?

I think, like, what you say there is so true. Like, there's a huge disconnect between, like, employers and understanding how people are now looking at jobs. And I think, like, I have so many memories of, like, walking around careers fairs, like, drastically hungover, thinking, uh, what the hell am I gonna do with my life? And, like, everyone's handing me pens. I'm like, ah, get away. And I think, like, in that environment, like, nothing feels engaging and everything feels the same. And I think companies are looking at it as like, this is what we've always done, so we'll do it again. Whereas the reality is like, people aren't spending their time at careers fairs. People are spending their time on TikTok. People are spending their time possibly a bit more on LinkedIn, on Instagram. And I think if I was an employer, I'd be thinking like, where are the best talents spending their time? Everyone's human, everyone uses social media, and I think I'd be thinking, how do I showcase my company in the best possible way whilst getting their attention in a way that no one else is? And I think that's what posting on social does. And I think what you're saying there about the, like, cringy trailers of, like, I don't know, corporate people sitting in an office, like, you're not selling it to me. I want to hear from the CEO what that company is like. I want to hear why they started. I want to hear what their values are. And I think employees, or like people that are just entering the workforce, not that they have higher standards, but they're looking for something different. They're looking how a company can add to their life now rather than it just be a place of work. And I think that's why it's so important, like the best way you're going to hear that is from an employee. Like if you can find anyone that's a bigger advocate for your brand than someone who actually works there, like it'll be a miracle because I think, like, you go through such a long interview process to get a job. Like, you're vetted so your values match the company that you're working for. Why would you not have that person as then an ambassador for your brand? Like, it's so confusing. And I think, like, yeah, okay, you might have an ambassador at a careers fair who sits there and chats to you, but, like, it's not in the same way. Like, you're not seeing them in their environment, you're not seeing what they get up to on a day-to-day, you're not seeing who they are as a person. And I think we drastically underestimate how important it is to match the values of the people around you. And the way to find that out really is like, how do they show up consistently? It's easy to be like all smiles and rainbows on a one-off at a careers fair. It's much more difficult to do that consistently over a year posting on social media. And I think that's where you really find out like who people are. And we spend so much time with the people that we work with. Like, I wanna know the person that I'm sat next to is sound.

Yeah, that's it. That's a very valid point. And, um, and I think one thing that I found from doing this podcast is that there's so much power in, in telling somebody's story as it actually happened and not like sugarcoating it and making success seem more attainable to the younger generation. Like, even for some, someone wanting to, to join a company and the CEO's risen through the ranks, and they talk about the hardships, the successes, what they did. And, and I think, you know, on that note of the power of feeling heard in the career sense, I think there'll be people now seeing you as this big name on LinkedIn, and they might put you on this pedestal whether you want to be on it or not. They might do that. And I think, oh, I wonder how I, you know, how I could be as successful as that. And what would you say to someone who's thinking that? And who, who are you? Like, you know, take careers out of it, your younger self at university, what kind of person are you in a career sense?

I think, like, to be honest, at uni, career was not really, like, at the forefront of my mind. Like, I used uni as a time to have a lot of fun, and I think that part of that was because I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I was like, I'm going to make the most of the opportunity that I'm in. Um, and I think, like, I don't know. I think it's okay to feel like that at that point in your life. I think there's so much pressure on students now to have it all figured out. And I think it's impossible because you don't know how you're going to feel in 2, 3, 4, 5 years' time. And I think for me, I was always thinking, how do I make an incremental change in the right direction? And I think actually I put so much pressure on myself when I left uni to have the career that I have now, but on day one. And like, constantly my mom would always be telling me, like, don't put so much pressure. And I get so angry because I'd be like, ah, like, I need to, like, I need to get my shit together. Um, she was right, annoyingly. Um, and I think it's just like, I always find it really frustrating when people are like, just don't put pressure on yourself. Like, I wouldn't if I couldn't, do you know what I mean? Um, so I think it's just like don't not aim for the big things, but break it down into smaller chunks. And I think like, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I thought maybe I wanted to work in politics or marketing or be creative or work for a small company. And like, you have so many options, I think, and you feel like you have to choose your entire career when you finish. And that's definitely how I felt. I was like, I need to be successful now, because you think like, I've just spent the last 4 years like trying to figure out what I want to do, and you see everyone getting the Aldi grad scheme and the Sky grad scheme or working for these amazing big companies, I think a better question to ask is, what would I be happy doing? What is going to make me happy in the next 1, 2 years? And I think for most people that are just finishing uni and entering the world of work, it isn't working 15-hour days, it isn't having a salary of 100 grand, it's having an opportunity to be in the same city as your mates, it's having enough money that you can go out and do things that you want, but also have a bit more freedom to not be chained to your desk every hour of the day. And I think if you adjust your mindset a bit to think more like that, rather than like, I need to update my LinkedIn to this amazing Unreal company so everyone knows how great I'm doing, I think it's, yeah, just like a bit of a mindset change.

My final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is when you, you know, when you're at Leeds University, you would have a certain idea of what success might go on to look like in your career, and then fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

That is a good question. I feel like this is such a hard question because— It is. I've never, to be completely honest, I don't really set goals in my career. I've never really had anything concrete that I want to hit a benchmark and achieve because I think, what do you do then? And I think for me, it's always been thinking about the day ahead or the week ahead and like, am I happy? Am I having a good time? Am I spending time with the people that I care about? And I think it was that when I was at uni, and it's, I mean, I had moments where I was like, I need to have this amazing career, but for the most part, I was just thinking about the next week. And to be honest, I still think that now, I don't think too far ahead because I think you can get carried away with yourself of like, I need to be XYZ. I always try and keep it like real for the next 24 hours, and I think like by thinking a little bit smaller, you actually open yourself up to more opportunities, I think.

Claudia, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Great.