Dec Penfold, Global Ops Manager @ Deliveroo

Welcome back to The Graduate Guide. I'm joined by Dec today. Dec has done many things in the food world, working for Deliveroo, heading up Coffee Club, and you've now got Dec's Kitchen. So if you could just start off by explaining a little bit about what Dec's Kitchen does.

I'll take you back, it's probably better to take you back to what I do and like what I've done and how I got here. Thanks for having me, by the way, really appreciate it. I'm a chef by trade, so I've worked in hospitality my entire career. Sort of started washing pots at 14, all the way through to looking after, you know, head chef of a sort of bunch of restaurants in London, and worked out in France, came back and sort of worked at lots of different levels of cuisine. Predominantly worked in London, in the UK, for my chefing career. But yeah, I did a stint out in the Alps, which was a very interesting journey and was actually a springboard into a management role, which was quite interesting, which we can touch on later, I'm sure. And then I transitioned out of kitchens sort of fairly early on, about 26, 27. I'd done quite a big stint in kitchens, and it was quite a draining, draining industry. Wasn't healthy, wasn't in a relationship, and it really— I needed to get out of it. So I transitioned into supply chain, where I worked for Wellux, who are one of the high-end food suppliers learned account management, understood how to deal with Michelin-starred chefs the wrong way around, you know, still coming in the back door but being shouted at for their asparagus not being there on time, or, you know, if the chanterelles not being good enough, that sort of stuff. So pretty eye-opening looking after like accounts was quite a big change. And then I was headhunted to go and work for Deliveroo, where I sort of went and helped create virtual brands and the food delivery concepts for them. So we were part of their special projects team, and we were sort of re-engineering the way we could use virtual brands as an additional revenue stream, which has been a huge success by lots of companies, like, since then. I started that back in 2018, so very early on to when everyone else is doing it. And then sort of learned the ropes through that, you know, working for a big, big company, understanding all of it, having that resource to be able to test and understand high-cost food, low-cost food, like the techniques, the operations, building kitchens, everything. So that was a really, really big, big learning curve for me and a big springboard into my consultancy. So when COVID hit, I got the opportunity to go and start a consulting business, and I had that sort of background in the food delivery side. So I was working with clients a lot in the food delivery space initially. And still do to this day. But then also working with restaurants, we opened a restaurant in Shoreditch called the Tramshare Project with Andrew Clarke and Daniel Watkins. That was a really cool sort of 6-month activation post-COVID. Worked on a food festival, did Selfridges food market. So, quite a lot in the space of about a year of consulting. And then, yeah, I kind of, couple, 3 and a half years in, I'm still doing it. Working with a range of clients from restaurants and hotels to care homes, a whole range of different things, food delivery in between. So yeah, that's a pretty good background there, I think.

Yeah. And in the world of ghost kitchens, you've become like a big name, almost like a pioneer, or at least early to the game. When was it you remember like realizing that this is a feasible concept?

I think, I think it's because the amount of restaurants that were having to sort of sweat their asset and bring in more than just their sort of dine-in operation, like more than just customers off the street, they're having to look elsewhere to bring in these additional revenue streams. Being at Deliveroo obviously helped that enormously because I was able to understand quite deep down in the data as well, like what brands worked well, like what cuisines work where, what price points, like what the target demographic was for certain types of cuisines, and which restaurants could take certain concepts on. Because there's levels of, like, complexity to brands and food. So it's, could you put a really complex, you know, salad and healthy food concept into a Stonegate pub, for instance? Not— probably not. But you could put a burger concept or a a fried chicken concept in there a lot easier. So I started to realize quite quickly that there was these options for these additional revenue streams. COVID really springboarded everything, like it really made, made restaurants and food businesses have to adapt to a delivery model very quickly. And then now what we're seeing is seeing a loss in sales of— from delivery because of over the past year and a half people going out and eating more and wanting that experience. But now restaurants are now transitioning to that hybrid model of having both dine-in and delivery experience. So it really stemmed back from working with Deliveroo, is kind of the point you're saying. And all the sort of the way delivery evolved very, very quickly, and now it's sort of plateauing, but it's going to start climbing again with a slightly slight change of business model, I feel.

Yeah, we use a big recent project to use as a case study, which is The Sidemen coming to you to make the sides and with Jordan, Sidemen manager. Talk me through that, that whole process and you know, you were mentioning there that you wanted to be a hybrid both in person and online. Initially it started out during the pandemic, you just ordered online and now you're opening up these new stores. What's that been like, the difficulties and the whole process with that?

They're completely separate, like, models. They're completely separate businesses. So with Sides, the initial brief when I spoke to Jordan, 2021 I think it was, early 2021, and the brief was delivery. It was all about delivery model. It was all about scaling to, you know, 10 sites initially, all self-funded by them. I would do the food and the operation and sort of guide them through the process. Um, very quickly it sort of— people like understood what we were going to do quite quickly, and businesses started to be quite interested in it. And we partnered with Reef to scale it very, very quickly. So initially it's gonna be quite a small concept, but we scaled to— I think it was 120 sites with Reef, just delivery only. But that was like a virtual brand model, so the menu is quite tight, the processes were small, the school list was small. It wasn't sort of extensive prep or extensive, um, like actual in the kitchen, um, pickup times or anything. It was very, very simple, very trainable to any skill level as well. And what we've seen where we are now is there's elements of that that we've kept, but it's more restaurant focus, it's more that dining experience. And I think going from 120 to then 60, which were the better operators, down to 30, which were the even better operators, and perfecting our model, perfecting our menu and process. And then now shutting all of those off and going, we're going to open restaurants, um, was a big, big change. But it— for me, it was really rewarding because we proved the delivery model scaling can get us a really good understanding of what our core product needs to be as a restaurant. Um, I think the— one of the interesting parts was we were able to gather the data from sites all over the country and know which cities and which demographic bought the product. So you'll see sites opening up over the next couple of months, and those cities that we're launching in are based on the cities that we did the most sales in, and they're key cities— Manchester, Birmingham, London specifically. So yeah, we really got an understanding of what we could do with a virtual brand to then what we hope is create a restaurant empire.

Yeah, I found it interesting drawing the comparison to scaling up all these delivery places and then refining it to the best product. So you, throughout your whole life, was training as a chef, like getting experience, learning all these different cuisines under different chefs, and then you went into Deliveroo and then you're dealing with a completely different problem. It's about how can you make food, like, actually deliver well and still be good when it— arrives at your house. And that's, I guess, a refinement process as well, like trial and error. So in some ways it might even feel like you're taking steps back, but you're actually taking steps forward. Is that kind of how it feels?

Yeah, yeah. You're always trying to, like, learn and refine whatever you're doing when you're cooking. Like, you could be cooking 3 Michelin star food and you're still going through the same process of how can I create consistency, how can I make it more effective, like, how can I make it still delicious but not too timely, etc. Like, they're huge differences in between fried chicken delivery food to 3 Michelin level. But it's, again, it's that thought process and understanding as a cook, like knowing how to do those things. And yeah, I had to retrain myself into thinking, how do I make fried chicken good? You know, how do we, how do we improve the breading process? And it's not just me, I've got a team of guys that I work with, and with Sides as well, they have a team as well that we've worked with collectively. So instead of thinking about, I will make everything in-house ourselves, like you would in a restaurant a lot of the time, which is cost-effective, you have the labor there, that's how it works. It's getting at 7, prep for service, do service, prep for dinner, do service. This is different. This is come in, as little possible needs to be done, turn everything on and go. So the mentality is completely different in how you do it, but when you're actually in the core element of it, like It's still a kitchen process. It's still all about consistency and efficiency and delivering a product same and same again, as you would in any restaurant environment.

Yeah, so obviously you, through working as a chef, realised that you were good at making food and cooking and everything like that. But then the other side of this, the more consultative side of the work you do, is there like a moment that you can trace back to, or even like, you know, your degree or something about yourself where you identified, oh, okay, I can actually make that transition from just being a chef to what you are now?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, I was always quite driven by doing more, and I, you know, I didn't think I wanted to be a cook. You know, I went to university and did a media and communications degree. It's not really what every cook goes to do. In fact, very few do. So I think I didn't really know what I wanted to do until I actually left uni and fell into something that I loved doing. It was something I always did, cooking. It was something from 14, every summer at school I was working in a kitchen of some kind, whether it was a Thai restaurant where I started working in a quite well-acclaimed Thai restaurant in North Wales, to working in the local pub or working in an Italian restaurant stretching pizza. Like, it was always like my go-to. People would work in bars, I would cook. So I found that I could do something different to everyone else, but something I enjoyed as well. And then it wasn't really until I got to uni that I sort of wanted to do more. And sort of when I was 21, me and my best mate, we set up a stand-up paddleboarding school in North Wales, which neither of us paddleboarded. We sort of did it a little bit, enjoyed it, thought, why not, let's, let's buy some boards and let's set up a school. and got ourselves qualified as instructors, went and did that. And that was a huge learning curve because it was making us learn how to run a business, how to make money, how to pay staff, how to manage that, how to manage clients. And neither of us had had that experience before. He worked in a bar, I worked in a kitchen, and I actually worked in a kitchen every night after work. So we were like grafting hard but also had a business going as well. Did that for 2 years, like 2 seasons, 2 summers, and and then sold the business to the local sailing school, who was run by one of our best mates. So that was a really interesting, like, journey. You know, it's still alongside what I was doing, what I still enjoyed in food, but it was my first business venture. It was my first opportunity to do something out of my comfort zone and learn the ropes. You know, I've always been quite intrigued about those sorts of things, and, you know, I'm in the process of setting up startup at the moment, but it's not always easy to do it. You have to sort of really be passionate about it, and I think that's the bit that I'm starting to learn is like you've got to enjoy what you want to do. But yeah, I think going back, it's, you know, you can fall on your education as much as you want, but you've got to enjoy what you're doing. And I think, yeah, that springboard into starting a business was a pretty big turning point for me, even though it's so different to what I do now.

Yeah, I think you mentioned there, like, I need to be passionate about what you do to make it work. I think another way of looking at it as well is, uh, you need to be, like, genuinely annoyed that the solution you're trying to create doesn't exist, right? Like, you know, that's more— it's a different fuel. And, you know, whether it's with your startup now, you know, your consultancy or whatever, I guess One thing I wonder is that when you started that first business, you know, granted it's not to do anything to do with what you want to do now, you were at a much younger age and there weren't any expectations for you at all. It was just you kind of could do it in the background or whatever. And then when you started, you know, Dex Kitchen or your startup now, for example, you've gone from working for one of the biggest companies in the world with delivery, like you're on a wage, you know, everything's sort of mapped out for you, to making that big jump into building your own business by yourself. And which one, you know, even though you know more now and you're more qualified, and which one did you find a harder, like, actual thing to do?

I think transitioning out to consultancy was the hardest thing that I did, but it was— it came at a point in my life where I had the support of a partner, so I could take that risk. I think that being able to go out and use my experience to benefit other businesses, whether it's a small project, whether it's a long-term project. I've got a lot of clients where I've been with them for like 2+ years, so very early on in my consultancy. And I think that was a— that's been allowed me to be a lot more stable. So I think when I built my consultancy, it was more about taking on smaller projects but also securing longer-term contracts, so I have that stability there. and the people I work with, I'm part of a team, right? I feel like I'm being paid a salary even though it's a consultancy fee. It feels like I'm part of all these different businesses, and the benefit to that is then you're, you're able to sort of have fun and work on other interesting different projects that are out of your comfort zone and require a little bit more effort and learning. And as a consultant now, like, I, you know, my experience is food, but I'm still learning every day and every client I work with. You know, like I'm working with a care home client at the moment, which I'd never worked in care before. You know, the, the operation is, is in a way in a kitchen is simple to similar to a hotel, but like there's that extra level of, you know, pureed foods and things like this. So I'm learning about a whole new type of hospitality. So yeah, springboarding into consultancy was probably the biggest risk that I did, but I've actually opened myself up to learn so much more as a chef, as a consultant. As a business owner and educate myself, sort of, with the people I'm working with, but also taking risks and having that stability to take more risks and work with different people.

I think the idea of consultancy as a profession, like, when you're younger, you're almost misled in exactly what it means, or you're at least pigeonholed into thinking, oh, you know, okay, I want to be a consultant, so you apply to one of the Big Four, you know, companies and you think it's like on Excel and doing this, whatever, but then like, you know, I've come to realize that consulting literally just means going in somewhere and helping them solve problems, right? It's kind of as simple as that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think it is fascinating that you say that because I think the sort of job market and the way people can go about their career is changing and developing to be like, you don't have to be restricted to one project. You can come into a lot and add your value where, where possible. And did you know before you made that jump from delivery to starting a consultancy that you would have clients? Like, did you, did you have people? No, you didn't at all?

No, no, I think I had the opportunity and that's what made me transition, the one opportunity, but it wasn't a stable opportunity. It wasn't, you know, it was I was going to work for the founder of Street Feast, Dom Coulsartigue, and like had a few calls with him. He believed in what I could do and worked with him on numerous projects, and we did 3 or 4 projects together. It turned out to be a great opportunity, but it wasn't, it wasn't my Deliveroo salary, you know. It wasn't— it was a big step, step out for me to be able to take that risk. Like, I couldn't do it without my partner Ella. Like, she really did support me in that, financially, mentally as well, because The other element of consulting is you're on your own, you know, when you run a consultancy yourself. So, you don't have a co-founder, you don't have a business behind you to work with and talk to. So, it was a big risk, but I think the— going back to what you're talking about with the consultants element, it all requires experience. And now you think that people come out of university and they'll get a, you know, an incredible degree, a first-class degree, and then they decide to go and work for KPMG as a consultant at 21. Like, what business wants a 21-year-old consultant that has no experience? They may be intelligent, they may be, you know, like, good at their field, but they don't have the relevant business experience. So there's always that weird conception of consultants and how that works. I created my consultancy off the back of experience, but I'm still learning as I go. You know, I'm only 32. I'm not a 50-year-old consultant, like I'm still learning as well. But I think you have to have that experience to branch out into that, and also quite a degree of confidence. I don't consider myself arrogant, but I consider myself confident, and that's come from working in kitchens, that's come from being put in the deep end and having to learn and battle your way out. And I think I've done that through, through my career in different roles.

Yeah, one thing I love you said there is, uh, calling it a step out rather than, you know, a step back, maybe, which, you know, some people might perceive. And I feel like one of the hardest things in, you know, how you perceive that next step or going through something yourself is like, how do you hold yourself to account, right? Like, how do you assess when, you know, you're used to companies telling you, you've met your bonus this week, you've done this, like, you got this feedback. Like, how are you at the moment, like, assessing that you've done a good job? In the work that you're doing other than just fulfilling what the client wants?

Yeah, good question. I think, um, in a way you can kind of look at it two different ways. Like, financially is one way to look at it, like you say, like, like, have you met what you've required? Therefore, have you hit, you know, your bonus or whatever that would be financially? Like, and being able to charge more money and extend that contract, for instance. You know, I've got, like I said, I've got long-term contracts that were initially a 3-month contract became a 6-month to 12-month, now they're 2, 2.5 years. So it's, I think there's that financial element internally, but also clearly, and within food it's quite a reward-based industry, you know, you can see on the plate what, how something is and get feedback from it. It's not like it's a document that you're building that people just use and benefit from. It's, you know, you're creating a core product that has lots of different people to give feedback on. Client, the customer, reviews, all sorts of media, everything can sort of encompass and give you that understanding of how well you're doing your job. There's lots of things I've done wrong. There's lots of things that I, you know, have worked for people that it hasn't necessarily worked. I wasn't the right person for them or wasn't, didn't do what they needed exactly how they wanted. So you kind of, yeah, you can kind of measure it on a few different ways, but yeah, it's quite hard to measure, it's quite hard to know how you can take it further and do more for clients.

Yeah, and you said earlier on that you think you're confident, you know, not arrogant but confident.

I don't think I'm arrogant.

No, yeah, I don't think you are either.

Okay, good, just, yeah.

But I think no matter how confident you are in your abilities or whatever, we had a little chat before this recording, and you told me quite a funny story about the moment that you were sort of showcased sides to the Sidemen, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Which I found quite entertaining. And for the listeners, it'd be interesting to sort of, you know, be a fly on the wall of how you were feeling in that moment, because, you know, this is a big opportunity, a big deal, and like you might have been prepared in years of experience, but you even told me that like the actual product was like—

Yeah, yeah. I think it's because they were Yeah, I mean, the story is that we were presenting the— that we had the conversations with Jordan, the manager of the Sidemen, and I created a concept and they really liked the idea. They wanted to present it to the guys. We hired out a kitchen in Bermondsey. One of my consultants, Dino, runs a pop-up restaurant there. And, you know, it's a small, really small kitchen, like small dining room area. It's sort of in the back streets of Bermondsey. It's not like a lovely sort of kitchen, which maybe they were expecting. And yeah, we had— even when we were prepping the food, like, all the guys came through and KSI and a few of the lads bumped through into the kitchen thinking they're walking straight into the dining room and stuff, which is a bit of a shock because I've never met these guys. I'd only spoken to their manager. We'd never, never had any conversation. And then present this food menu, which is— there's elements of it that are today what we're doing, but, you know, it was a lot different. Very sides-based, hence the name, but it sort of transitioned out. But yeah, we sort of— the XAX box, which is what they currently have, is like a meal box. So it's got, you know, a drink, a side, a burger, and a sauce all in it. And I sort of wanted to create that concept and that idea for them initially, but presented it in the format of a shoebox, which was all brown, you know, wasn't branded, nothing. Asked Jordan to bring me some stickers. I chucked a couple Sidemen stickers on the box, put the food in the box with a really makeshift sort of cutout area, and then went to the Sidemen and presented this— what I think we could do with the meal box. And they all kind of like laughed and thought it was a joke because obviously hadn't gone as far as— didn't think that I would need to go as far of having this fabricated perfect product. Um, they got the idea, but it was, it was weirdly quite an embarrassing moment. But then I was like, I'm sure this is the right thing to do. To do, you know. This— I'm not going to go off and spend hundreds of pounds on a fabricated box for one show. But yeah, it was a strange experience, but weirdly it's all come to fruition and, you know, we sell them now.

So yeah, yeah, so yeah, you obviously went on to get that job.

Yeah, yeah.

So all happy days. But what is it, you know, what is everything for you, whether it's with Stars or your other projects, like How are you planning on sort of excelling and innovating the industry further yet? Because already it's like so much has happened in the space of 3 years, like, yeah, I can't even imagine what's going to happen in the space of 10 years. Like, is there any sort of like glimpses into the world that you can give us?

Yeah, I think the delivery model is changing, has been for a while. I think the businesses are starting to take more of a hybrid approach, like we're discussing earlier, like having a dine-in and a delivery experience, whether that's through the same menu, or whether that's through segregated menus and segregated concepts. Um, that's, that's something that's ongoing, but it's going to become more and more common. Restaurants are now building out, um, you know, building new restaurants that service delivery as an additional part, you know, where they have a separate rider access to stop the, the flow of customers and riders bashing in the doorway, stuff like that. Um, so businesses are starting to realize that it's something that's not going to go away. How that, how that looks for their business is different for each one. I think, I really believe that there's a huge opportunity for food markets and food hubs that again have that hybrid model, that have that, that have that dine-in experience, that sort of group experience. The likes of like Mercato and all of those sorts of places like, like that, but a lot more tailored and designed for delivery in, you know, key locations that can service the residential area and the office areas, but also be a hub for people to go to. And I think, yeah, I think that sort of, that hybrid model, I think, is what everyone's going to be transitioning to, whether they do it together or whether they split it out slightly.

It's interesting, you can always draw some similarities to how, like, an architect might try and innovate and utilize a space. You know how sort of expensive, for example, in London, like, square footage is. Like, the ability to actually utilize something more efficiently than anyone else, like You know, whether it's like Blank Street Coffee, like that whole model is built off that. There are so many examples of that being the key to success. Yeah, I mean, when you like go into a project then and you're looking at a business, they've asked you to come in as a consultant, what are like the 3 most common like things you look for initially to sort of build that base of, okay, this is where we can start improving?

It's kind of dependent on the client and like the operation. So for example, yesterday I was down in Hampshire looking at a care home and seeing how we could improve the food operation. And I think it was, you know, an initial kitchen and then how it could transition to another nursing home kitchen which was 500 meters away. So how do we work on— so I'm given a solu— I'm given a problem to solve on how do we transport the food operation from here to here? Whether— is it hot, is it cold? So I think there's sort of some of the key things I have to look for is like the feasibility of what the client wants to do. Like, is it, is it possible? Um, because there's times when people want to do stuff where they want to have 20 different cuisines on a menu, for instance, and that, that's not a realistic, um, goal that we can achieve. It's not, it's not going to work operationally. You could be limited to the amount of equipment you've got to use. The labor would be all over the place. Suppliers, like How do you sort of do that? So I think it's assessing whether the actual task and goal is achievable is a really, really important part. A lot of the time as well with clients, it's more to do with money a lot of the time. So it's whether there's an opportunity to do what they want to do within the realms of their budgets. You know, I've got clients who want to do a simple café operation, you know, really low budget, really, really simple. But then I'm also working for Sides who are trying to open a bunch of restaurants all over the country. So I'm constantly given different sort of scenarios where I have to see where, where we can do different things and use my experience and knowledge and also research and learn how that can be done on their budget. Have I said 2 or 3? I can't remember now.

You said enough.

I've said enough, yeah, yeah. I could probably keep talking.

Yeah, one thing I'm always curious about with people that have been able to turn their sort of passion into their job is, you know, you're surrounded by kitchens and cooking and developing menus all the time. And I'm sure, you know, like, if you take yourself back to, you know, 14-year-old, like, you know, it's your birthday, where do you want to go for dinner? Like, food used to be like, and is for many people, like, one of their favorite experiences.

Yeah.

Like, whether it's cooking it or eating it. Is there any difficulties in being able to separate yourself from when you're working to develop or just cooking for your own pleasure?

I think a lot of cooks will tell you that they'll go from cooking their fine dining food in a restaurant and go home and have soup and noodles or a toastie. Because you're surrounded by great food, great produce, you get to eat elements of that, you get to taste elements of that. When you go home, you don't want— you don't want to have, you know, the time to do it necessarily when you're getting in really late. Um, and two, you just want those home comfort things a lot of the time, those easy things that you can do. Um, now different for me now, right? I'm not sort of finishing service at midnight and trying to get home. So I've sort of found that, especially when I moved out into supply chain and then Deliveroo, I was working a 9-to-5, you know, so I had that opportunity to you know, enjoy my passion more and cook more. I think I've been lucky, I've been always able to still enjoy both sides and segregate them quite well. Although, you know, when I go home to my parents and my brother and his wife, like, they're always like, so you're gonna— what are you gonna cook? What are we cooking? You know, and it then becomes my job to decide what we're gonna do. Or they come with me with an idea and go, we're gonna do a pork belly roast this weekend, you're gonna cook it. It's like, okay, right, so now I have to prepare myself to do all of these things. But then they'll also go, "We want the sides fried chicken. Can you do all of that?" You know, so they— I enjoy doing it and I enjoy cooking and always have. My partner back home, she cooks all the time. She probably cooks a lot more than me in the house, to be honest, with our little son. So it's— I still love doing it, but it's— I've never found it hard to sort of divide the two between work and sort of personal life when it comes to cooking because it's been a passion, you know, it's been something I've always enjoyed. It wasn't the job that I did to make money. Obviously I did to a degree, but I needed something that I could also enjoy and benefit from and gain future skills from as well.

You mentioned back home there.

Yeah.

Which is New Zealand now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm going to ask you this question without actually really knowing what this term means, Yeah, and maybe this isn't you at all, but I guess is that this term of being a digital nomad?

Yeah, yeah.

Essentially you're doing work from wherever in the world because you kind of can, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you did it for reasons other than just because you could. It was like, you know, family and lifestyle decisions and whatever. But would you recommend that sort of idea, and is there any sort of tips on how someone could carve out that life where they're still working on what they want to and being able to travel.

Yeah, I'm really lucky. I live in Auckland in New Zealand, which is obviously pretty much as far away as you can get from here, but still work with a lot of UK clients. I wouldn't be able to do that now without having done, been doing all the work I did here in London previously, and then also the first year and a half of my consultancy being in London and being in person. I'm also back in the UK 2 or 3 times a year, so there's a cost element to that. But, you know, that requires a lot of organization and planning and puts stress on my family back home and requires me to be here with clients non-stop when I'm here, which is, uh, quite full-on. But it's definitely achievable, and across all industries, across all sort of— all types of consultants can do that sort of stuff. I'm quite well connected with quite a few marketing consultants that do that, that go to Thailand for 6 months and then go to Singapore and go to Australia and sort of do everything remotely. The difficulty of my job is that there's a lot of practical elements to it, so I rely heavily on my team here. So I have a team of consultants that deliver practical elements. One guy has been with me the whole time, and we used to work as head chefs together at Copper Club. So like, you know, I've known him for, for years, and I trust him to sort of deliver the practical elements of what I'm doing. He knows that what my skill set is, I know what his is, and we work quite well in being able to do that. Plus there's another couple of consultants that I work with on different things, whether that's a health-oriented thing. So I, I have, I have these practical people here to deliver when I can't. And a lot of what I do then is project managing, is the operational side, is building up training materials, is, you know, liaising with suppliers. Like, a lot of that can be done anywhere in the world, you know. WhatsApp is a great thing, um, you know, Zoom calls and, and Google Meets is pretty much how I live my life. But, and I make a lot of sacrifices by being there. You know, I deal with a lot of UK clients, I've got clients all over the world, Dubai, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, lots of places. And those time zones are still just as unforgiving as the UK is for New Zealand. So, I sacrifice a lot by spending my evenings on work calls and working late. Yet, I also had the benefit of having the whole morning to myself in a way, when a a lot of clients are asleep. Means I can take my son to daycare, I can go for a run, go to the driving range, I can do the shopping, I can do all the household chores in that point when people have their evenings. So, I've been lucky how I've done it, but I also have to sacrifice quite a lot. I'm not going for beers on a Wednesday night with mates, 'cause I'm at my desk by 7:00. So, I've learned to adapt my life to being on a different time zone and working with different time zones. But it works. Clients, you know, some clients are shocked when they realize I'm not in the same country as them, but when they see my experience and see the people I'm working with, they sort of take a punt, and it does work. And I'm also not— it's not like I'm never here. I am here, and I do give my clients that in-person feel a lot of time, whether it's me or whether it's my, my other team.

Copper Club. Yeah. I want to speak a bit more about your experience as a chef because this might be the first and only time that I have a chef on, who knows. So I'll get my questions in.

I'll get you some more, don't worry.

Yeah, it's an amazing restaurant and it's blown up sort of in recent years, I guess, like the whole concept of the igloos and, you know, being myself. And it is a very, yeah, special dining experience. Would you say that was like the the height of your sort of culinary cooking career? And with that, what were the big pressures that came as being a head chef?

Yeah, it was probably the— I think Copper was the second time I was— no, third time I was a head chef. But I didn't start as a head chef there, I started as a sous chef. So I had the— I said with France, like, I ended up going out to what I thought was going to be a ski season, turned up to a hotel to be a junior sous chef. Again, I wasn't even qualified really to be a junior sous chef. I was hired because they sort of need the people and I sort of, you know, got the gift of the gab to go in and be that person. The head chef never turned up. I was then tasked to write a menu, like cost a menu, hire a team, run a kitchen for 9 months in a French hotel in the middle of the Alps. So that was a pretty eye-opening experience. Did a lot of things wrong, did a lot of things right. You know, we were the second best restaurant in the area, in La Tanya, with the top restaurant having a Michelin star. So I was doing something right. But I was also, you know, it was a huge learning curve initially as a head chef. And then came back to London and then I actually took a head chef role for Stonegate working in the O2. So I was actually a head chef of a Slug and Lettuce, which is a completely worlds apart cuisine difference from what I was doing in France and previous restaurants and pubs that I've worked in. But it, it allowed me to understand the QSR element of food and like high volume. You're doing thousands of covers a day, you know, there wasn't the refinement of food and quality, but it was all about mass production, mass food, big teams running a big, big restaurant. Um, so then to take back on that, I sort of took a sous chef position in a hotel in, in, uh, Sonning where the original Copper Club was, and this is pre-Copper Club, and then was with that transition when they became Copper Club. So I was with them from the start as a sous and then became an opening chef. We opened 3 or 4 restaurants, and then I was a head chef in every single one at one point. Um, I was training all the head chefs that were coming in. Um, again, I wasn't, I wasn't better than any of those head chefs. What I had is I had an understanding of the brand and the concept and being able to deliver that product. And I was actually able to learn a lot from all the other head chefs that I was able to work with. But yeah, we opened up the Igloos, which was a crazy, a crazy journey. It was, you know, we went from doing, you know, a huge amount of covers and then we brought this on and the media went mental and the restaurant just took off. So I think looking after that and obviously other sites, it was difficult, like really difficult part of my career because I was working crazy hours, I was not very healthy, not very happy, and it's one of the reasons I left the industry because of that. But I don't think— I look back at it as being a hard time, but still, you know, a hugely beneficial and key learning point of my career.

And as we begin to wrap up the episode, there's a question I like to ask all of my guests. And I think it'll be particularly interesting for you having done so many different things in your career and, you know, graduating from university of, you know, something you don't do now, and being a chef to a consultant. But what is your definition of success and how has it changed throughout your life?

It's one I could have prepared, couldn't it? Um, definition of success. I think, I think a lot of people think it's like a financial thing, is how much money you have. I think, and that I think always will play a part in people's minds, like, may not be the forefront, but I think having money and being successful is what people perceive. I think I feel like I'm successful now because of I enjoy what I do. I'm passionate about what I do, and that would be probably my biggest piece of advice to people is like, you As I said before, I'd gone through times where I was doing something I loved but actually having a really hard time doing it. And it only is when you look back do you realize that you benefited from doing that. And I stuck at something that I loved, stuck at something that I enjoy, I'm passionate about. So I think that's my biggest takeaway in, in, in what makes you successful is being able to enjoy everything that you do as a career and how that benefits you financially. Obviously, it helps if you make more money from doing it, but you want to be happy going to work every day. Whether you work in a company or whether you're a consultant or whether you own your own startup or your own business, you need to be comfortable and happy and enjoying everything that you do from your personal life all the way through to work.

Thanks so much for coming on. It'd be great.

Awesome. Cool. Cheers, mate.

Cheers.