Ellis Platten, Founder @ AwayDays

Alice, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for getting me on this. Um, I'm very happy to be here. It sounds like I just signed for a football club. Happy to be here.

Uh, if you could just start off, what— maybe it's not as easy for you to— it's very alternative career path that you've taken, but sort of talk us through the whirlwind adventure that you've been on in your career so far.

Yeah, so career so far, it's also a really interesting career. I think I, um, I mention it all the time to people because it's a career where people don't see you until they see you. So like, for example, now the channel, 2023 especially, the channel's done really well, but people just like assume that it's just happened, whereas the channel actually started in 2014.

The channel being Away Days.

The channel is called Away Days, which is sort of the offshoot of— essentially what happened was in 20— the summer of 2014, I left high school and wanted to go. I was off to sixth form and they were like, what do you want to do? And I was like, well, I want to be a children's TV presenter, which was like, because I was like, I look, I looked baby-faced then. Believe it or not, like, I actually look older now, which is mental because I'm 26 and I looked so young. But I wanted to do children's TV, that was what I wanted to do. I was like, I think I've got confidence, um, so I was like, I need something to be like almost like a roaming CV. Because YouTube was big at the time, but there wasn't many football creators really. It was Arsenal Fan TV, obviously Copper90, who were like big, big channels back then, Spencer Owen, um, but really there was I thought, a gap in the market for someone who showed themselves going to games. Um, so I started making content in 2014 once a week, myself and my mates going to games, literally not expecting it to snowball to what it became. It was really low effort, it was just me trying to improve in front of the camera, and I saw like noticeable changes. And then within about a year, the channel hit 1,000 subscribers, which nowadays is not a big deal at all, but like then it was like really, really a massive grind to get to 1,000. I say you can maybe times things by 10 now, so to get to 1K back then was as hard as it is to get to 10K now, and so on and so forth. So I hit 1,000 subscribers and it was like, oh, this could become— not a job, I never thought it would be a job, it was like this offshoot for opportunities. And then by the end of sixth form, I believe Awaidiz had 4,000 subscribers, and that was I became like almost a talk of the sixth form almost, which is not as glamorous as it sounds for Goulston-on-Sea. It's not like it was a big thing, but it was what people didn't see even then. Like, I had no money. I also had problems in my personal life. I had issues with gambling, which was a big deterrent in terms of the content and life. But essentially what I was doing was I worked at a McDonald's part-time to then fund the trips. Which would then be every weekend I would get the train from Great Yarmouth to Norwich, from Norwich to somewhere in England to watch a game of football. And I remember I'd always get the last train back to Great Yarmouth, which would get me home to Yarmouth about 11 at night, and then I'd walk home. But I didn't have a coat, I couldn't afford a coat, couldn't afford a proper bag, so I'd carry on like my laptop, which I'd edit on, in like a Tesco bag for life. And then like I'd walk home regardless of the time of the year without a coat or anything and end up home at half 11. So I remember walking home sometimes in the snow, or— I know it's probably bad to sound like I couldn't afford a coat. Like, I could afford a coat, but just didn't, just didn't manage the money correctly, really. I was putting it all into this channel, and then it just kept snowballing really from there until about, I think it was around 2017, and I, I obviously, the beginning of 2017, I had issues with gambling quite heavily. Which sort of took over my life. And then Away Days took a back burner, which then saw other channels around me— because by then we'd sort of started a bit of a niche, but other channels were doing the same thing we were doing, going to football games, documenting their journey. And then they sort of overtook us like very quickly, and that sort of affected me quite a lot with it. So I ended up going into a career in influencer and social media marketing, which was fun. I, I, I think it's a really good space and a cool space to work in. Then I eventually transitioned to just eventually get myself back on track, stopping the gambling. And then it was a trip to Porto really that reignited the channel. Went out there, the channel, the video went viral, ended up on Portuguese press. It went like big. It was like the first time I'd had a video do 100,000 views, which was like, this is like what it must feel like to be like famous. Which, you know, most idiotic thing ever. but yeah, I went out there, things went really well, and then from then I just sort of never looked back. I was sort of just making loads of content, and then to be honest, it sort of just rolled quite casually. I think I was on about 50,000 to 70,000-ish subscribers until lockdown, and then really weirdly backwards, that lockdown— because I'm aware it completely detrimented a lot of people's careers— but lockdown actually made my career. Like, I would never have done YouTube full-time if it wasn't for lockdown happening. And like, I started making football shirt videos, and I think I caught it at a really good time. Like, in terms of just— I had a passion for football shirts, it was all I could make content on. I couldn't go to football matches. And then suddenly they just like overnight just went like that. I remember it's just like really weird to deal with. You sort of go from a video doing like 10,000 views a week, not caring about it because it's not your job, to doing like 50,000 in a day, and you're like, oh, this could actually be a thing. So eventually, by the end of lockdown one, it was with lockdown one, um, I remember it was September the 18th, 2020, I was able to go full-time. And then it was just never looking back, being stuck in this hamster wheel of just having to make content and having to— the way I see it is with like what I do is it's like you're in, in water, like especially because I've seen it, like you think about we've been around YouTube for long enough now, like growing up, that people do just die. Like, your channel can just— like, tomorrow my channel could just die overnight. I'd like to think I've done nothing that would cause that to happen, but like, people's careers on this are so insecure. I think I spoke to someone before about it. I was like saying it's like, it's like being a footballer, but every day you could get a career-ending injury. You just could. Like, it could happen. So now I find myself— I— the way metaphor I use for it is like I'm in the sea and I'm treading water the whole time. So I never feel comfortable with a video doing well. Like, I never— there's like a ranking thing on YouTube Studio where it ranks your videos 1 to 10, and a 1 out of 10 won't do anything for me. I'll put it on my story or something being like, oh, this is nice. But a 10 out of 10 will like crush me. So it's like this really weird mental space where you're like, I don't want to die because I've got the best job in the world, but you know it could end any day. So you're just sort of trying to ride the wave until the wave sort of consumes you, is the way I see it.

And there's so many ways that I could, uh, take this interview from what you just said, but I want to focus in on— when people talk about having a successful career, it involves like being really passionate about what they do, right? And loads and loads of people are passionate about football. What do you think separates your ability to then go and make a career out of football? Like, I mean, you mentioned that you wanted to be a children's presenter before you had that confidence, and then you love football, and then it just seems that you've combined those two, and that's kind of how you've started your career.

It's really weird. I've got like, I've sort of manufactured the dream job for myself. Like, I can't ever imagine going into a 9-to-5 again now and just being like, I'm fine with this, because I've, what is it like, I wouldn't have, oh, something like, I've never tasted such riches, I'd be fine with being poor. To be clear, it's not a financial thing. It's just in terms of like a passion thing. I just love doing what I do so much. I think it was just, I caught it at the right time. So that was key. I got in at 2014. And I think people, just the fact that we've always kept the same, the ethos of the channel has always been me either with Ben, my best mate from like 2014, or now with people who are actually, The content is just, I feel like it's genuine. For a year or two, it lost that. Like, I think between 2018 and 20, to be fair, I think from 2020 until 2022, when I went full-time initially, I was trying to do what other channels were doing. Whereas like, I think what made us unique was what we did, what we do. So I was chasing like big moments in games and stuff. And, but to go back to your point, and off on a tangent, the often the point initially, I think it is having confidence Luck is a big thing. It's obviously algorithm-based, and I think there is a thing with YouTube that you do sort of— the best do end up rising to the top, I guess. But it's also just being— there is a lot of luck. Like, for some reason, an unexpected video will do really well that you don't think is very good, or one would do really badly that you're like, I don't know why that's done badly. So I think it's— I think the thing that's been big for me as well is like, I've got really talented people that help me. So I've got two really good editors who both have a really good sense of humor that can elevate the content. Got a really good thumbnail designer who's amazing as well. So without them— and I also think nowadays there's actually— I think it's harder now to become— to start off on YouTube than ever because the, the standard of content across the board is so high. People have teams behind them from like 50,000 subscribers, these big teams of people, and it's so hard to get in now. Like, if you're just a person starting up with just a phone on your table, people— you're again, you've got so many things stacked against you because one the quality of content isn't going to be as good. People are so used to this polished, like, MrBeast-style content, which is just so over-the-top production value stuff. The way you can get involved with just a camera— I think there's no YouTube gurus out there or amount of waffle that can bridge that gap. You just— it is so hard now to break into YouTube. But yeah, I don't know. I think if I started now, the away days probably wouldn't ever have been a thing. And I think we're also quite lucky that Awadiz is quite a catchy channel name as well. Like, I think that does a lot of the legwork, but I think, I don't know, just confidence, I think, was a big thing. But I think I do actually think a lot of it is luck, which is, you know, it's not me being humble or anything. I think it is quite a luck-based thing, really.

Yeah, and I'm interested in what you said about how you lost your, like, authentic self online for a little bit. And I think, like, even, you know, I wouldn't call myself a YouTuber at all, but obviously we are uploading these on YouTube and like, I don't want to change the content of the podcast because I think there's genuine value in that. But then like, in terms like clips and, you know, like the right thumbnail and what you caption it, like you are trying to get people to tune in to something that maybe isn't actually what you want to produce as an episode. And I mean, I think then the, the conflicting side of that is that everybody loves authenticity of voice, like, you know, nobody likes to watch staged videos really, or, and if they do, I don't know who they are. Um, so how, how have you sort of, you know, now that you have come out of that, the other side, what are your main learnings from that you take into when you produce content now in terms of keeping that authentic voice?

Yeah, so what happened was, it was during the World Cup, there was other creators out there, maybe about 15, 20 other creators out there, and I thought to myself one day, England lost to France, and I was really caught up about it because like I I am ultimately just a football fan who was just like, I don't know if I'll ever be able to go to a World Cup again. I was only able to afford to go because it's my job. And I analyzed the content everyone made. My content performed horribly during the World Cup, which was another wake-up call. But I analyzed the content everyone made, and I was like, are any of these people actually enjoying this experience? And I was like, I'm not overly sure they are. And I was like, because like, the thing for me is like, I want to do stuff I enjoy as well. So that's been a big thing in 2023. So I was like, I got home and we did the first video I did at the start of 2023 was we threw a dart at a map and we went to the football match it landed nearest to. We didn't change it, we didn't try and go to a big game. We ended up in like this club called Widnes, which it was like a really low level, which is like perfect. That's what me and Ben love the most. And we made it about us and the day again, which was actually what we were supposed to do initially. But like I said, between 2020 and 2022, I was looking at what the other channels were doing, and they were going to a game, shocked in the thumbnail, recording just a match, not putting any personality into it. And to be honest, they could be replaced by AI. You can't— you don't need— no one's following them for them. They're following them for the big moment or thing that happens in that match. So they'll skip to that moment, it will get a lot of views, but ultimately I think it's quite an empty viewing experience, and it's also quite a reactive viewing experience. That, say for example, we're recording this just after Arsenal played Man City, right? If I was at that game, Arsenal win late on, I'm shocked in the thumbnail, the first 24 hours that video, people are going to be really enjoying it. But after that, I don't think anyone really remembers who the creator was. I don't think anyone leaves it thinking, I'm going to watch that again. Whereas I like the fact that, going back to the data on that video, that for me is something someone could watch 2, 3 years from now because it's that there's a narrative there that's established that is irrelevant from the game we're going to. So that's what I wanted to do, especially in 2023, was go to these games that were just a laugh. Like, I wanted to make sure the channel was funny and we were having a laugh the whole time. So that is what has been my main focus. And actually, DART at MAP was big for the channel because it did 100K in a day for the first time I'd ever had that. I'd like the videos even then, like the World Cup videos, like England-France was a World Cup quarterfinal, did 22,000 views. Which— that's not sustainable. Like, to be, to be clear, isn't sustainable as a job. Uh, well, it is, but it would have been like— I'd have had to have done like 2, 3 videos a week to keep it going. Um, and whereas now I'm doing 1 video a week, maybe 1 video every 10 days, because they're doing so well, like really well at the moment. But if the data map video didn't do so well, I was going to just sack off doing away days entirely and just focus on football shirt content, which is obviously another big strand as to what I do. Like, we've got a series called Shirt Shopping, which is really good in terms of views-wise. It's a really good series, um, but it's more like it's dependent on the guest, really. Like, the guests carry that. But if the Dark Knight video did really well, so then Away Days continued, and it was sort of this like, oh, people actually want to see myself and my mates just go to football. And like, for example, the, the Boca Juniors, um, the Boca Juniors video We did, um, the Boca Juniors video. We did— is the last video I just uploaded as the day of filming this. It was— there was a comment saying, this video is half an hour long but the football match doesn't start till the 21st minute. I love that because like, that, that is the whole point, is that we're just like— we get so many comments now being like, I don't even like football, yeah, I like the content. And I'm like, that, that is exactly what I wanted to be. I want football to be the vehicle as to why you come and watch, but ultimately it is just almost like a travel vlog. Where we just end up in these weird scenarios that we've ended up in the middle of Norway this year, we've ended up in San Marino, like Lithuania. I want to go to Moldova soon, I've done that before, I want to go again, just like a random part of it. I want to go to these random places that football isn't necessarily the focus, but it's also why it's the familiarity as to why people would click. So I think it's been, it's really been about finding what I enjoy making again And I think it's also resonated with the audience again as well.

Yeah, and you mentioned there your shirt shopping series. Would you say the most like validating thing of you putting your actual authentic voice out there and just sticking true to what you actually want to make is that the guests that you've been able to get on, they wouldn't come on if they didn't think you were a good person producing good content, right? If they got clickbait in the video, like those kind of people wouldn't you know, want to be interviewed by you. So yeah, that's obviously something you sort of pivoted to alongside your away day vlogs. I mean, talk me through that whole process. I mean, and even as someone that grew up watching YouTube, you must feel like some element of imposter syndrome, or, you know, just like, what on earth is going on here when you're meeting these people?

Yeah, so it's been, it's been the way the Shirt Stuff is, like the domino effect the Shirt Stuff has had has been crazy. It started from us going to charity shops, to then mystery boxes, to this thing where I was like— because the thing with my content always was like, there's not really scope to ever collaborate with people, ever. And I was like, well, sneaker shopping's a thing. I'm— we have a good relationship with Celtic Football Shirts. Why don't we just make— that's just— everyone knows it's a clone. It just is a clone of sneaker shopping, but it's with our own voice on it. So we started off with guests who are mates with me, and then we snowballed into Like, for example, I think the biggest episode so far has been the Bazinga one. Obviously, to get someone from the Cybermen on there was massive, but he was— the thing that I loved most about that was he got the series. Like, he said, "I've seen every episode," and stuff like that. I was like, "That's really cool." And even with that series as well, like, we had a big revamp just after the Bazinga video went out, because the thing with YouTube is, like, reworking thumbnails can, like, add hundreds of thousands of views to content again. So like, the football shirt shopping series is very much like, if one goes out, people then go and watch the other ones. So as soon as that one dropped, we went and changed all the thumbnails for every shirt shopping to match the similar vibe of that one. So we've sort of gone a bit more basic, just where the guess is very apparent. I'm not in the thumbnail anymore because I don't think anyone— I think this series is now— I think it probably is the biggest football-based series on YouTube now. I think that's very rash to say, but there's not really— there's not really many football-based series on YouTube, to be fair. But like, if you go— because like, for example, like what ChrisMD does and stuff like that, they're not really series, they're just like standalone videos. Whereas I think Shirt Shopping is maybe the biggest, but don't hold me to that. If that's wrong, I, I don't know that's true. But like, like, it doesn't need me in the thumbnail anymore. So we sort of took me out, made the guests front and center, and we noticed that the Bazinga video did 3/4 of a million views, which was huge for the channel. But then alongside that, the other videos collectively did another half a million views together. Just because we'd rework the thumbnails. But yeah, that series is just— when, when is this episode going out, the podcast? Because there's a thing that's very similar to Shirt Shopping that I can maybe talk about but maybe can't talk about. Okay, because like it's not been announced till next week and I'm under NDA until it's announced.

We can edit out of the podcast.

Yeah, okay. So by the time this podcast goes out, I did essentially Shirt Shopping, but not really. We went through David Beckham's career and shirts of him to talk about his new documentary, which is like the biggest— because like, I was thinking the other day, I can't imagine many people have interviewed David Beckham that haven't had a degree. Like, I don't have a degree, I just did YouTube and the domino and the snowball effects. Um, we went through his career from childhood all the way to retirement, and now it was the day before Messi made his debut for Miami. That was the biggest opportunity I've had. And like, the snowball effect we've had, like, obviously I got to interview Emi Martinez about his career in shirts, John Stones, um, like, uh, Mas Pacheco, Beth England, like all these pro footballers I've been able to talk to about their careers and shirts, like Mikel Antonio. Like, that is because of Shirt Shopping, because of that one series and the relationships I've established because of that. And the fact I've maybe been able to— it was funny actually because the Beckham thing was collectively with Classic Football Shirts and to promo his new documentary, which I'm not paid to say, but it's very good, it's a very good documentary. But It was like the guy from Classic Football Shirts was like, it's weird of you, Ellis, because you look flappable. Like, I look like the kind of guy who's going to like fluster in an interview. I think because I look so young and not put together, people are like, oh, he's going to mess up. But they were like shocked that I didn't mess up the interview, which was quite funny. I was like, good, I think that's a compliment, but I'm not sure if it is. But yeah, that was the biggest opportunity. It's probably the biggest opportunity I'll get. I don't imagine there's no one bigger than Beckham I can really talk to about shirts, I can actually have a conversation with about shirts. That was purely off the back of that one series. So you speak about imposter syndrome, I don't actually get it until afterwards. Like, it's like afterwards I was like, because like during the shoot, at the end of the shoot, he signed my shirt off my back. I was wearing it on my back and he signed it like, "Best wishes, David Beckham." And I was like, on the flight home, I was like, that's a really weird day that I had. That's really weird. But during it, you sort of have to be like, I was so focused about learning all the details of his career that you don't really get time to panic. But shirt shopping is weird sometimes. You're like, oh, these are people I've watched since I was in high school. They're just in front of me. We're just having a conversation and they're happy to be in my thing, which is really odd.

But yeah, I think one thing that people forget when they look at a YouTuber or their favorite YouTuber is that they're actually running a business as well. Like, you know, you may not have had a classical education, gone to university, learnt business, but you are having to make business decisions. Decisions. And like, even, you know, establishing that relationship with, uh, Classical Football Shirts, like, how did you even go about getting that? Like, was that purely just from like being in the right place at the right time, or did you actually have to like strategically think, okay, this will benefit my channel, my business, my career, I want to make it happen?

So we did— I was like, I had this idea for a series and we filmed 2 pilot episodes, or maybe— yeah, it was 2. At a different location. It was like a warehouse type thing. And then I said to Classic, I was like, look, I've got a format here, it's clearly doing well, it makes sense for you, for me, for me to host it here. This is what I want to be paid, XYZ. Also the exchange rate of me being like, there's no better location really for me to film it. And it's just like, myself and them is maybe one of the best synergies. Like, there's no really better synergy for a channel than the biggest football shirt channel.

Maybe you and Beckham.

Me and Beckham, great synergy. Sit me on the left wing, him on the right. Um, but it's in terms of just like, on the biggest shirt channel there is, they're the biggest shirt seller in the world. It was just like, it made so much sense. And it's the, it's the perfect setting for the series. All the guests, or even like in terms of the guest scenarios, like the guests are all familiar with Classic Football Shirts because it is, they're just so big. I, I don't I don't think they— I don't think I sort of realized how big they were, but then they sort of say to me, I don't think you realize how big Away Days is as well. So I guess it's like this weird thing because I never— I think this 2023 has been so big for Away Days, I've sort of not really taken in just sort of how crazy it's gone. Because like I said, you're always on a hamster wheel, you never really step outside of it. So like, it's not until you go out in public and you're like, that person just recognized me, that's really weird. That happened because it's like, it's just a YouTube channel where I just go to football matches, is what I see it as. And but anyway, the Classic Football Shirts relationship and establishing relationships with brands is a lot of what I do. Not with Classic Football Shirts, but just a lot of my work is admin, whether it's planning trips, responding to emails. I'm actually looking for representation at the moment because I'm just— the amount of times I have to go back and forth like over brand deals and just, it's like monotonous. Um, but that is the majority of the job, is monotonous, and people just don't see it. People, like, like I said, the problem with the job is as well is people only are ever going to see the end product. So like, for example, the Argentina trip we did, it was like 6 months ago we planned it, and then it's been logistically planning it, sorting 2 videos in 4 days, which isn't— I know it's like, it's not like I've got a whole production crew behind me, but if anything, it's like, yeah, I haven't got a whole production crew behind me. It is this one thing of me being like with my mate who works in plumbing. Like, Ben, the guy who comes with me, works in water. So like, he's not like— I guess in like taps and like whatever. So he's not in this industry, he doesn't want to be in this industry. So it literally is me going with my mate, let's make 2 videos in 4 days. The trade-off is I get to pay for you to come with me, and then we'll do this amazing trip. But a lot of it is just— it's rushing around trying to do it. And in the soul of that, obviously, is I get to do the dream. I get to go and be paid to go and watch football matches, which obviously stirs up some resentment from certain crowds of the football fandom. Because obviously I get it as well, like, I wouldn't like someone that's being paid to watch a game that I'm paying to go to. Like, I get the resentment from them as well. I do think sometimes the resentment towards me in particular is misguided, and sometimes mistake— people mistake me for another individual, but that's not who I am. So it's sometimes a little bit frustrating.

Yeah, and obviously you said a lot of it is just you, right? And with anybody who's a solo founder in any business, like, one thing people struggle with is that relationship with accountability, because you want to keep putting out the same quality of product and, you know, keeping your audience happy, but it's really only you who's going to determine, like, say, "Oh no, you should be doing that better," you know? So how are you, how are you actually managing that even in like your day-to-day, like, personal life mentally? What's that process with making sure you're actually hitting the right targets for yourself been like?

Yeah, so I noticed obviously I've had a big change in my personal life this year, which has been pretty well documented in terms of like relationship status and whatever. Um, and I think the channel definitely was a detriment on that because as the channel's got bigger, the numbers have got bigger, and to be honest, the stress has got bigger, and it just ended up consuming me this year, like, in terms of the stress and everything that's took with it has been— it's just been a stress. The channel has been, but like the best stress possible as well, if that makes sense. So it's like, like I said, the whole 10 out of 10 thing, the Boca Juniors video that just went out, day one was 10 out of 10, like it was like bottom. It's now 2 out of 10 because we completely reworked the title and thumbnail that night because I was like, I'm not going to sleep until I see like the There's a thing on YouTube called the CTR, the click-through rate, which is how many people are seeing your thumbnail and then clicking through to the video, which is the biggest stress ever because you're like, why are people not clicking this thumbnail? And the reality is as well with YouTube as well, you can make an awful piece of content, but if your thumbnail is great, it's going to do well. So that is the biggest trick as well. Like, YouTube isn't just the back end, it's more the front end. You need to sort— you need to get eyes on your content first, and then you need to make content that's good enough to keep people sticking around. Which is, yeah, just— I think in terms of accountability, the video before the Boca Juniors one, I knew while filming it wasn't very good, and I was disappointed in myself that I'd thought of this idea that wasn't strong. That's just frustrating, and it's frustrating that you know what you're doing it, and I feel like that affects it because I'm very much someone that overthinks as well. Like, if I think a piece of content is poor, I will then just hone in on reasons as to why it is. We've had it with shirt shopping a couple of times actually, that the audio has been almost unusable, and it's actually completely my fault. Like, I've left the mic not fully plugged in.

I've been there.

Yeah, it's like, you're certain you plugged it in, and you're like, well, I just didn't. It was actually— there's a big episode we did with Cal Freezy. It was three-quarters of the way through, I realized my mic wasn't on. I was like, how am I doing that two years into a series? So it's like, I'm trying to sit here and say my career is serious as I'm just saying I can't turn on a mic. So it's like, you know, it's like trying to juggle it, but it is The biggest challenge is not letting the stress— because it's also a job where it's all-consuming. Like, my job is constant. Like, we sat here and recorded this, my channel is still out there, videos either performing well or performing not. Like, in the algorithm right now, like, they're either— the Boca Juniors video, I keep citing it because it's the most recent one— could have just done that and it'd just be like, this is the amount of views it's getting, it's just dead, it's just flatlined. So there's a stress where Whether it's 1 in the morning, I check my phone, something work-related has happened. I'll have had like something happen on Instagram, something on Twitter. So it's very much this job which, regardless if you want to get on holiday to get away from it, you just don't. Like, in the end of the season, I was supposed to get away and then ended up going to Japan, Miami, Lithuania in a 2-week period when I was supposed to not be doing any content. Which, like I said, then has a knock-on effect in your personal life because you don't really have one, like your career is everything. Whereas I don't think people see it that way. I think people see it as I'm just wandering about around Europe or the world going to football matches, which I guess it is, but it's not. There's a, there's a massive trade-off basically between this career and the life you can live outside of the career. And there was points earlier this year when the channel was doing well, I was thinking to myself like, is it, is this what I want? Basically, do I want to do this or do I want to just work a 9 to 5 and then just not do the channel anymore. And then I decided that was a stupid mindset to have and then kept doing it.

I can imagine it must be, must be a weird experience where, you know, for all the time, like maybe the first 4 or 5 years you were doing the channel, like you're trying to get to the places, trying to afford it, you're trying to get the biggest guests on, and now you've actually got people coming to you with these like opportunities to do these footballers and go on these amazing trips. Like you said that you're like struggling to turn them down, like How's that, you know, even with like, you know, sponsorship and like brand deals, like how are you, you know, deciphering what's the right thing to do, both for yourself, like mentally, and like putting your time into what's the right thing to put time into, but also to keep your channel, you know, promoting what you want to put out, making the right content?

I think it's difficult because I still am so— I've got this thing, I'm so concerned about what people think. Of me that I always say yes to things, like always. Like, and it's like to my own detriment as well. Like, there'll be someone that would be like, 'Do you want to do this brand deal?' And I'll be like, I'll say yes at first, then I'll get to the point where I'm like, 'I don't really want to do that, but I've already told them yes. What do I do now at this point?' So it's like trying to manage what is a good— which is what I've had to— I've tried to work on it, especially with the '23-'24 season, was like, 'No, I need to actually.' So for the first time ever I think, whatever. But like, this weekend I didn't do an away day because like, I've just got back from Buenos Aires. There's absolutely no need for me to go and do another piece of content this weekend, which won't be as strong. But that was weird. I was sat at home on a Saturday, I was like, I just feel like odd. This doesn't feel nice to me. I don't— and Sunday I had a whole day off and I was just at home watching Alan Partridge, which, by the way, what a way to spend the Sunday. But I was like, this doesn't fulfill me. It doesn't. I don't feel fulfilled by this. And I think I'm always going to have this thing where I need to be doing something, which is— I don't know whether that's healthy for the channel to survive, or if it's eventually gonna either mean this channel stays afloat for a while, or, or mean the channel bursts in flames because you do too much. Because I think there is that with YouTube as well, like, if you overexpose your content and you're, you're too much of you out there, it does negatively affect it as well. So it's about risk and reward in terms of what you're doing, and not just mentally as well, but like, you don't want to burn out because it was, it was to a point, I think by the end of the World Cup I was just done. Like, I actually had a ticket for the World Cup final but flew home, but that was more like, I don't want to watch a World Cup final if England aren't in it, was my sentiment. But then I missed the best World Cup final of all time, so it's like an interesting mindset I was in at that point.

Yeah, and you've just given a really, you know, Sorry, how was that? You've just given a really honest and open account of what it's like to be a creator, but there are so many people that are wanting to go into that industry now as a creator, you know, whether they truly know what it's going to be like or not. I mean, like you said, there's been highs and lows, it's, you know, you wouldn't trade it for anything, it's like what you enjoy doing, but like if somebody were to go and make that step to be be a creator, what would be your one biggest piece of advice in, you know, understanding the algorithm and, you know, actually, you know, growing on YouTube?

I think it's just that I didn't think about first, like, you do what you genuinely only get one chance to make a first impression with it. There is only one time someone is going to click on your face for the first time, and if your content is unpolished, if it's like you not doing something that you're putting effort into, people know. Especially now with the amount of content that is out there every day that's uploaded. There'll be hundreds of high-quality pieces of content on YouTube every single day, and there's only one time that person is going to click on you potentially. So you need to, you need to— you're basically competing for— you're competing against every other creator on the platform for everyone else's time. So you need to be someone that is instantly reactive. That doesn't mean you're screaming into the camera, because that's not what I do. You need to be engage them from the off. You need to give them a reason to stay around. You don't need to be doing like what I did back in the day of like holding the camera to your face, just saying whatever you can be bothered to say and then moving on to the next clip, because you'll lose people. And people's attention spans are lower than they've ever been, which is like— I'm quite against TikTok and YouTube Shorts, for example, because I just think they've completely drained people's attention spans. So like, I do a half an hour video now, and to the average view duration is like 13 minutes. Which is really high for a half an hour video because people are so used to watching a 10-second clip with Subway Surfers on top or beneath it. So it's like, I— yeah, you basically— the problem I'm making is you've got one chance to make a first impression and you need to give someone a reason to stick around for 10-15 minutes of their time.

Something we put massive onus on at The Graduate Guide is starting things while you're young.

Yeah.

Um, and for me there's two reasons why you do that. I mean, people really appreciate the sort of the naivety of youth, like, in that not knowing what you want to do but having a passion to actually learn how to get better at and do it. Like, people respect and they like watching that journey. But also the other thing is that you're just getting a head start, and you might not— say you've done university, you're 21, and you need some money, like, you might not have started Away Days. It would be, like, just not possible. What would be your advice to somebody maybe who's first year at university or they've just graduated from college and they're thinking, oh, I could go and do this degree in psychology at, you know, this university I don't really care about, or I can really like go and try and build something from young. Like, what would be your advice to that?

I think it's difficult because neither route is the correct route as well. Like, and I think if you are doing it specifically, people who are doing degrees, what I would say to them is everyone on your course is probably going to leave that with a degree as well. So what are you going to have that sticks you out ahead? Especially like, for example, sports media and journalism. There is thousands of people that take on degrees in that space every single year. What are you going to have at the end of that that sets you apart of these people? Because whether it's a first or a 2:1, your grade or whatever, I think is— people don't necessarily look at that too much. They want to know what you've done. I know people have gone into roles of the BBC, for example, and they've said to them their social following isn't high enough. So like as brutal as it is now, and I'm not a fan of the space necessarily going to just numbers-based things, you need something that— especially in the space I'm in particular— you need something that's going to set you apart from people. You need something that's going to make them go, oh, we could use this person to leverage maybe their audience or their experience that I can already see is there, rather than having to maybe nurture them a little bit more. So if you can show you've got 2, 3 years of experience, it doesn't matter about the numbers, but if you can get out there and have experience— like in football, for example, there's loads of local non-league teams that will take people on internships in media that I know people have leveraged. So then I think Leeds' social media manager started at Newport County, maybe below them, and then went to Shrewsbury, then Leeds. So it's like, it happens very quickly in media. You literally just progress through non-league to the point you're at now. So I think getting out there and having experience ahead of your peers, because I know, as brutal as it sounds, everyone in your journalism degree or everyone you're with is you're fighting against them for roles. You just are, whether you're friends with them or not. That's how it works. So having something that sets you apart from them, I think, is massive. That'd be the biggest advice, I think, is just do something of your own that makes some people be like, this is what this person does and this is why we should hire them.

Yeah, and the other thing that's worth mentioning, which you definitely have done successfully and hopefully I have as well, is that, you know, you don't have to give up what you're doing. You can build it on the side, and then when you're ready to make that, that jump and so it was a full-time thing, you know, it's, it's there, the, the brand is there, your personal brand is there, and people already are engaged in what you're doing. How did you know when it was the right time to go full-time with Wadey's?

Well, it was, it was weird because I worked in social media for— at this point I was working for a haulage company, and I actually really got on with everyone I worked with there. Like, I was really— I loved being in an office scenario. I actually hate working on my own. I hate working from home. I'm like very much like someone who is happier around other people. Whether I did the most intense work for that company, I don't know, but like, I could have stayed there for a while. I'm sure they were happy with what I was doing, but it was like, I was like, I don't know, do I want to be doing this 2 years from now? No. Can I make slightly less than what I'm doing now? I just go full-time and really focus on Away Days, probably. So I took this big leap of faith, and I remember talking to people who were close to me at the time, and we were sort of like, I don't know if this is the right thing to do. Then I was sort of like, oh, maybe I can just do exactly what I'm doing again in 6 months if it doesn't go well. Like, we will be completely fine, rent can be paid and whatever. So it was daunting at first to be like, this is what I'm going to do full-time. But it was ultimately like, I knew the payoff would be so high that it was a risk worth taking. But there was also a very real scenario in which I never went full-time with Away Days and I'm still just doing social media for a haulage company. And I'm sure I'd have been happy. I might even be happier mentally than I am now, to be honest. Like, because it's the It was less stressful and it was easier, like, and I got to see people every day and communicate with people who became friends. But it's like, I think it was like the risk and reward suddenly was like, let's do that and let's see what happens. And I think it was probably the best decision I've made to go and make that leap of faith, even though the first few months we went straight back into lockdown. I went full-time September, and I think it was early November we went into lockdown 2, before Christmas, I think it was something like that. So then I was like, ah, this was a terrible decision. But luckily it then paid off after that.

Yeah, even that must have been pretty crazy, blowing up in lockdown, where previously you could walk down the street to your local supermarket and people wouldn't recognize you, to now, like, you know, I'm sure you get recognized on the street. Like, how have you found that whole process? Because I mean, personally, and I think this is what you do have, but I wouldn't like to be famous, you know, like Love Island famous. I'd like to be known for having done something cool, produced something cool, but like you must encounter some people that don't perceive you in that way, as you said, like how are you coping with that as well?

I think it was like a Steve Carell quote where he was like, the happiest day ever was like Series 1 of The Office or something came out, he's like people would look at me in the airport but not come and talk to me. I was like, I've sort of got that a little bit unless we go to like a football setting. A football setting is like, because it's like people know what, people like can put two and two together, like oh that's Ellis, he's there doing this thing. I do, obviously, whenever anyone comes up and talks to me, like, I love it because, like, they're the reason I'm able to do what I do for a living. And I don't— it's not just me being, like, disingenuous. That is, like, my genuine opinion. Like, I love that people allow me to do this. I'll always talk to people. Um, there's been times maybe, like, in terms of, like, when I was, like, navigating being really single, when I was obviously doing what a single person does, and being spotted out and about doing that But like, although like the other week me and Ben were in a nightclub, um, for my birthday, and so this guy, this guy was just so excited to see me and was like, I need to buy you a drink. I was like, well, surely, surely in this dynamic, you— I owe you a drink because you watch my content. Like, why would you buy me a drink? Which I always find it weird when like a YouTuber or famous person goes to a restaurant and gets their meal paid for them. I'm like, but they can pay for it, they can afford it, what are you doing that? But that's a tangent. But yeah, I don't mind being spotted. Sometimes I'm not You aren't allowed to maybe— you can't be having an argument with someone, for example, and then have someone— because you have to be like this presentable person. So there's maybe a little bit of that, but ultimately I don't— it has been all-consuming, especially this year. It's been like, oh, the channel has just got a bit silly in terms of how big it's got. I guess like became more consuming in every aspect, I think.

Yeah, and as we near the end of the episode, taking it away from careers very briefly, I've got some questions selfishly I'd like to ask you about football.

Go on.

Favourite football shirt? Oof.

The Fiorentina '97-'98 home shirt, the Nintendo sponsor with the yellow, not just the yellow long sleeves, it's just sick, I love it. Or the Rangers '95-'96 with like the centralised Adidas logo and the High collar, big fan of that as well.

Favorite away day match?

The— ugh, see, I think people are expecting me to say like Boca Juniors-River Plate because obviously just did it and it was like this big bucket list thing, but the match itself was objectively awful. So I think England-Germany in the Euros was so good because it was like this high of we just left lockdown, we beat Germany in a knockout game for the first time since '66, and like for like a brief fleeting moment, it was like, we are gonna do this. And I think actually, I'm actually somebody who believes the fact that like we enjoyed that England-Germany day more than Italy enjoyed winning the Euros, because I think football is all about moments. So like, for example, another great example of that is the biggest high I had last season was Leeds beat Wolves. I think it was 4-3 or 3-1, I think at the end Rodrigo scored late on, chipped the keeper, and I was on cloud nine for like so long. Even though I knew we were going down, I was like, this is just brief relief or release from just the pain that Leeds United Football Club are. This little bit was just so fun. But yeah, England-Germany, and Wembley was like literally vibrating that day. I've just never seen Wembley even close to that since.

Leads me nicely onto my next question, which is Leeds win the Premier League or England win the World Cup?

Well, England win the World Cup. Really? Because I just think it's the whole country together thing. This country, by the way, if we won a World Cup or even the Eurosa, like, the state it would be in would be phenomenal. It would be like— I'm sure some people wouldn't cover themselves in glory, but I don't think particularly— maybe some people in Argentina covered themselves in glory maybe when they won the World Cup. But you get people just like— we nearly ran out of alcohol for the semi-final against Denmark. Imagine, we would be dry, the country would be dry, like no one would be in work, everyone would be so— England winning the World Cup would be phenomenal. But yeah, Leeds winning the Premier League would be amazing, but I just think England— Leeds have won the top division since '66, like 2 or 3 times, whereas England, we've only had this one fleeting moment that, to be honest, the sport was a completely different sport back then anyway. Like, I watched the 1966 World Cup final a couple of times, I'm like, this is a completely different sport. Like, it's so slow, it's like just— it's not the football we have today. So I think Euro 2020 is probably the time that the country— it would have been so good.

Ah, uh, not your favourite match but your favourite city?

Porto. I love Porto so much. Like, obviously went out there, like I said, and fell in love with it. But like, the city, I love the architecture. I love— it's very like, it feels like quite dated but in a great way. Like, I love how beautiful it is. I'm not someone who really likes that kind of stuff, but I just, I don't know, the whole city just like, just think, just I was just enamored with it when I went out there. I don't think I've ever used the word enamored before, but—

This is what the podcast does. And taking it back to careers, my final question of the episode. I ask every guest I have on this same question. And when you were, was it 16 you started Away Days? Well, yeah, when you started that, you probably had this ideal of what success for that channel would look like, or just in your career in general. And now, you know, how many years on, you know, you're in the big leagues, back here from flying out to see Keely, you know, etc. What does success look like for you?

Hmm, I would think the most— the thing that would fill me with most joy would be if I could buy a house without a mortgage. That would genuinely be— I know it's so boring and not YouTubey, but if I in 2, 3 years' time can get a house and not have a mortgage to worry about, that is— because like my family, like I'm from a working-class family near Great Yarmouth, which I'm really proud of. But like, I saw my dad work ridiculously hard all of his life to have like someone else detriment him not being able to pay off a mortgage. So I was like, that is— to not have that worry or that stress, but to then allow me to financially support my future children better and give them a good platform to live off of, that is the dream. Like, if I'm very conscious that by the time I'm 34 years from now, Away Days probably isn't going to be what it is now. Like, it just isn't. Like, that's how YouTube channels work. Um, but if by then I've accumulated enough money to have no mortgage, then I think it's been a successful venture.

Alice, thanks so much, it's been great.

No worries, thanks for having me on.

Thank you, mate.