Elspeth Vincent, Viral Founder Photographer

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Elspeth. Elspeth, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Yeah, so I think normally I would ask my guests to sort of give a bit of background to their career journey so far, but having followed you on LinkedIn for a while now, it's been a bit of a weird and wonderful journey and probably quite a long story that I'm sure we'll get into throughout the podcast. But you're a photographer. Tell me about your love for photography and why you wanted to make this your career? Why was it your dream career?

I don't know. I mean, like, it's something that I've kind of just done forever. Like, I think I first got into it when I was like 10 or 11, maybe. I just got a Facebook account and I wanted to take photos of my mates to put on Facebook, so I begged my mum to get me like a £50 digital camera from Argos for Christmas, and then just took loads of photos basically. I was just taking pictures 24/7 and my sister was quite into photography at the time. She was doing it at college. She's like 7 years older than me, so she was doing her A-levels, I guess. I don't think it's A-levels, it was at college. I don't know what you do at college. It's not— yeah, is that an A-level? Maybe. Um, and she was into it and I was like just learning stuff from her and I was like, wow, this is so cool. Like I'd always liked drawing and I was always like a really creative kid, so like art and photography, like drawing, painting, and taking photos were like huge parts of my childhood and like teenage years. It's just all I did. I went on to study photography at uni. It was like just the only thing I ever thought I would do. It took me a while to get here till I actually started doing it as my job, But yeah, I don't really know why I love it, I just do. Yeah, it's just—

you don't need a reason for why you love it, and often it's very hard to articulate that. But obviously you did, in your career journey before making photography what you do, delve into some career paths that maybe weren't as suited to you. Why did you think, coming out of university doing photography, that you photography was not a feasible career path at the time.

Um, because I applied for like 100 in-house photography jobs and didn't get an interview for any of them, like any of them. I spent hours and hours and hours just researching jobs, applying, trying all sorts of different ways to apply, like emailing the hiring manager directly, or like just submitting my CV and a cover letter, or like going through the online application or applying on LinkedIn. Like, I tried everything and I'm not the best at applying for jobs, but you'd think if you apply for 100, you'd at least get like— you'd at least get someone saying no. Like, I didn't even get anyone saying no. I literally just got no responses from any of them. And that was absolutely like soul-crushing as a fresh out of uni 21-year-old working in retail because that was just what I did. Like, I had a retail job all throughout uni. So I just carried on doing it afterwards, and I had to do that for like 6 months full-time before I could get a different job that meant I didn't have to at least like work weekends. But I still couldn't get a job in photography for the life of me.

Like, is there anything you know with hindsight now being in the industry that meant that the 21-year-old self probably wasn't ready for the industry? Or, you know, what do you think it was that was holding you back?

I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Like, it's a very competitive industry as it is. Like, there's not many jobs in photography, and there's more people studying it than, you know, than there are jobs. So there's a lot of disparity in that way. Like, I don't really know, but I don't think there's much different you can do. Like, they want you to have experience, right? But it's very hard to get experience if no one will let you work to get any. Um, and obviously I had the experience of my degree, which like was a lot of real-life shoots. Like, I did a lot of assisting for photographers, and I did an internship at a quite a big fashion house. I did an internship at Mulberry working in their photo studio, um, so I just don't really know what they're after. I think it's just sheer volume of applicants and not being able to get through them all. And I think quite a lot of the time they just want you to have some absolutely insane experience that is not really accessible for people that don't have someone in their family that can help them get it a lot of the time. I don't want to take it straight into like nepotism, but I think it does lean that way quite a lot in the like film and photography industries.

And if not nepotism, then what you've done is unapologetically been yourself in your photography career. You've carved your own niche and it's working really well. And I wonder how much, you know, period of time where you— I think you referenced it as a small little side project you did as a podcast where you were interviewing founders, but how much that actually really did for you, understanding that this niche of founder photography was possible, and yeah, and falling back in love with it, I guess.

Yeah, so the podcast definitely like changed everything, I would say. Like, it wasn't really— it didn't teach me that founder photography was a viable option. But it more just taught me how to run a business and how to do my own thing. 'Cause when I came out of uni, I was still, I was better at photography probably than I am now 'cause I'd done it so much more. I'd been doing it nonstop for 3 years and then I took a few years off. So when I first went back into it, I wasn't as good. But when I came out of uni, I had no business experience. I didn't know how to make an invoice. I didn't know, how to handle any sort of client relations. Like, I didn't know how to do anything. So, and I was really stupid as well. I was really ditzy and I was an idiot and I still am, but I've trained my brain to be a lot more like, I don't know, just programmed and not as silly a lot of the time. But yeah, when I was 21, I had no fucking clue. Sorry, I'm swearing a lot.

No, that's fine. I just want to stop you there quickly because I'm picking up on a pretty self-deprecating demeanor, which, you know, I do love in a personality. However, like, you ultimately have had to believe in yourself time and time again to make any of this possible and, you know, even launch this podcast, do anything. So where do you think that self-belief comes from? Because clearly it's a bit of a juxtaposition to what you're talking about, how you're talking about yourself.

I think my— I think, yeah, I do have a quite strong sense of self-belief that kind of just comes from the fact that I don't want to fail at anything. So it's not really like I think I can do it. It's more like I really don't want to not do it. Like, I really don't want to— I really, really don't want to, like, regret not having something or something not happening and I could have prevented it. And that's very scary to me.

So your motivator is more fear?

Yeah.

In your career, and obviously in the initial stages, that's, you know, it's pretty well documented that there were times where everything felt like impossible to you, and, you know, coming back to London after a brief stint in New York and you just didn't know what to do. There'll be a lot of people listening to this that can resonate with that feeling in their career, if not photography and the artistic industry. I think a lot of career paths have become pretty inaccessible. What's the steps, not necessarily to getting into the career, but actually getting into a state where you can start, you know, believing in yourself again and really building something you love?

I mean, I don't want to take it back to the fear thing, but I do think it's a good motivator. Like, imagine— it's kind of like when you think about how, like, in which scenario you're gonna run faster, when you're running towards something you want or if there's a lion behind you chasing you? Like, you're gonna run faster if there's a lion behind you. Like, I think just like you just don't want to regret like not making something happen. And maybe that's a— maybe people will think that's toxic, I don't know. But for me, that's just the— that's the only thing I can say because it's the only thing that's— that was true for me. Like, I always knew that I really wanted, like, freedom in my life. I really wanted to do my own thing if I could. And I got— I was like, I was 24, I was like, oh man, I thought I would be doing that by now. Like, I thought I would be there by now. I know that's insanely young, but I do hold myself to, like, quite a high standard. And you look at other people when you're 24 that are, like, 24 and they're a billionaire, and you're like, man, like, why isn't that me? Like, not I'm a billionaire or anywhere close, but, um, yeah, for me it's just like The steps, I guess, were, I don't know, like an absolute necessity. Like I'd quit my job when I was 24. At the time I was working in like sales and marketing for a very good accountant. They're my accountant now. So that's why I do love them. But I was not good at that job. I say sales and marketing 'cause they know I did fuck all. I know I did fuck all. And I had no experience in sales and marketing, and I'm sure they have a much better team now. But yeah, I quit that job 'cause I was like, well, I know I'm doing no good for them. Like, to be fair, I was learning a lot because I was basically using all of my hours at that job to learn, like, independently and not do much work. So don't do that. Yeah, I quit that job and I was like, I just need to quit to make me do something. Like, I need to have absolutely no stability in order to like kick myself into gear to make something happen. So maybe no one should do what I did because it's really stupid.

What I think what I'm taking from that, if not a step or, you know, a guide that someone can take, is that in your career you have to do what works for you. Um, yes, and, and I think what you're saying, what has, has objectively worked for you might not work for another, but it's about like really trialing and, you know, flirting with the idea of, of failure as well to make you actually, you know, put yourself, your back against the wall. Like, I think I can relate to that in some sense where I don't feel like inherently proactive. I feel like I put myself in a lot of positions where I have to be reactive, which potentially is similar to you. And so moving on to the stage that you're at now, you get those first couple clients maybe, or founders, and you clearly are doing very well at them. Like, the photos you make, like, they bring out such a raw, truthful self of a founder, and I think it's really refreshing to see because you're right, I think a lot of photography can seem quite stale and the same, and yours really, you can almost see your personality and your story put into these photos, which I love. But why do you think other people like Falk Foot so much? Why do they love what you do, and how have you sort of cultivated the brand from that?

I kind of think people liked it because it looked different within that industry, right? Like, what I'm doing is not new. Like, the way that I shoot is not— I'm not the first person to shoot that way. Like, loads of people have shot this way, and it's quite— it was quite popular in like the late '90s, early 2000s, and early 2010s, like around 2010, the style that I shoot in now was pretty big for a lot of companies like American Apparel and that kind of thing. But I don't think anyone ever took it into like the corporate space. Yeah, like American Apparel and like corporate, like, don't go in the same sentence. So I think like, I think it caught people's attention maybe because it was just very new and people hadn't really seen like startup founders with photos that were intentional rather than just like a normal corporate headshot. Um, and I posted my work on LinkedIn because I was like, well, where do founders hang out? Well, I didn't— to be fair, to start with, I didn't really have the idea that it was going to be founders. I was just like, I'll take photos of anyone that Anyone that will let me and pay me some money. And I wasn't even charging very much because I was so new, but because I was posting on LinkedIn, because I knew there wasn't many other creatives posting on LinkedIn, especially in London, especially sort of within my network, which was very small and weird at the time. But no one on my LinkedIn was posting photography. So I was like, well, here's a little gap. Let me just put it on here. I'll put it on my Instagram as well. And I'll just see what comes of it. And from that, it ended up being founders mainly, because I'd already built up a pretty good network of founders at my old job.

And you're not necessarily interviewing founders like me, but you're obviously spending a lot of time with them and taking a lot of lessons from them along the way. And is there a particular story or moment with a founder that stands out to you as as formative to believing in yourself even more and then actually like pursuing this more full-time as well?

Yeah, so my first ever client was Mashgang, who are an alcohol-free craft beer company, the best in the world at no alcohol craft beer, I have to say that. And that was my first ever paid shoot, and it like absolutely changed my life. Like, I met Jordan, who is the founder of MASH Gang, and we literally just— I was like, this man is like an absolute beast. Like, how is he doing this? Like, he's so— he's so not like a normal founder. Like, he's so just like punk and just like a normal person. And I was like, oh, that's what— like, I just saw a lot of myself in him, and he was the same way. He was like, we're literally like the same person. And then I worked with him a little bit more. I was very open with him about the fact that he was my first client and like, thank you so much. And he was like, "Oh, let me give you some more work." And I shot some product stuff for them. And after a while he was like, I found myself going to him for advice a lot. And I was like, "Oh man, I'm in a pickle here. What do I do?" And he was like, 'Are you looking for like a mentor?' And I was like, 'Uh, yeah, what's that?' And he was like, 'Well, let me— like, we're just gonna do a weekly call every week and you're just gonna tell me all of your woes.' And he's literally been like invaluable to me. Like, he's got such an interesting story himself and he's such an interesting guy. Like, he's so unique and I literally call him all the time. I was on the phone to him this morning, like, what do I do in this situation? Like, I'm scared.

I think it's interesting, we do touch on mentorship and the power of it quite a lot on this podcast, and I think sometimes it can be built up as this, uh, this thing, oh, you have to get, you know, you have to go find a mentor, and, and you, you just can't be that calculated about it sometimes. I, I think your story kind of epitomizes that, right? Like, yeah, somebody from you just being so authentically yourself, somebody who really actually is that will find you. And I think it's about almost putting yourself in as many positions as possible for that to happen and knowing that it's definitely, you know, you got it on your first client, which is lucky, but I'm sure there were loads of people before that in different parts of your life where you just thought there was never going to be anyone that truly represents you in a business sense.

Yeah. And you know what, I've heard a lot about people like paying for a mentor, like paying for a weekly call with a mentor. Please don't do that. Like, just find someone that really wants to help you. They will help you so much more if someone genuinely wants to see you do well because they care about you and because they care about your business and what you're doing. They're going to give you a lot better advice than if you're paying them an hourly fee to go on a Zoom call with you, right? Like Maybe that's a controversial statement because I know a lot of people— I don't know, that's so crazy to me, but I know a lot of people pay for a mentor.

No, I think that, that is crazy.

Yeah, why? Like, don't. Find someone that wants to do it.

I think it's not the fact that you can't, um, pay for advice and value in a career sense, but mentorship as a word I think is inherently philanthropic, I think, right? And yeah, and I know what you mean about you need people bought in to your journey. And I think even though you can have one-off, you know, cases like your first client, but I think really if you're trying to give advice to graduates on how you can make someone invested in your own story is develop that ability to storytell. And you've done that really well on your LinkedIn, and I guess that comes into building a personal brand, which you've done very successfully. but not in this way that potentially personal branding gurus might tell you on LinkedIn. So tell me what you see the term of personal branding means to you and actually how you can build your own one, not just a personal brand, but your own personal brand.

Yeah, I don't— I've like never used that term. Like, I don't really see it. It makes me cringe. Like, All, every internal organ is like closing up when I hear the word personal brand. And when I turn, when I hear people try to like tell advice on how to like build a strong personal brand and it's like bullet points, like post a photo on LinkedIn and like put spaces between the lines of your text so it's easy to read. Use words that people understand. And it's like, just fuck off. Just be yourself, be yourself and like good things will happen. I don't think it's about having a personal brand. I think it's about being a good person and showing the world what you're doing. Don't think about it as a personal brand. Just be yourself. Like, what? I know you need like people following in order to get like work and to get people interested, but like that will come if you're being like a nice person and people are interested. I think no one can give you advice on how to build your personal brand. Like, I just don't think, I don't know, it's not something that ever like crossed my mind when I was doing it much. Maybe a few times I got like peeled into it a little bit and I was like, oh, I need like my personal brand like, And maybe there's a few like cringy LinkedIn posts like from over a year ago where I'm like, I took some advice, I got personal brand pilled and like did something cringe, but I promise it won't work. Like, just do what feels right to you. And maybe for some people nothing feels right, and maybe you're not meant to be a person that is broadcasting themselves out I don't think everyone is meant to do that. Like, some people won't find it comfortable, and if you don't find it comfortable, it will show. Yeah, so find a different way, you know.

I think that's exactly why I asked the question in that way instead of how do you build a personal brand, but, you know, yeah, what does it mean to you? And I think it's very clear that I think your story, your personality, who you are and everything that's come from it is literally, it comes down to authenticity. Like, that is where, what it is. And I think with the Gradu Guide, we do try and make people tell stories of just, yeah, unadulterated themselves. And I think you've done a really amazing job at doing that. And I think there will be someone who resonates with everything you're saying listening to this right now. And is there a message that you you would send, more generally speaking, about the future and how to actually look at it in a more healthy way to that 20, 21-year-old yourself, so someone else who's like you listening can, yeah, can build a career to resemble yours?

What, like advice to my 21-year-old self, kind of? But yeah, um, well, my advice to me like would be, don't be like so afraid to take a risk quicker. Like I stayed working in retail and then I was a receptionist at a coworking space because I felt like I kind of gave up a little bit. Like I was trying to apply to all those jobs and getting knocked back a lot. And I was like, well, maybe this is just like what I do then. Like maybe I just give it up that kind of thing. And that's how I felt for like 2, 3 years, I'd say. And, um, that was terrible. And like, I look back at who I was at that time and I'm like, I was really nothing. I was really no one because I wasn't focused on anything. I was just going out a lot with my friends. My friends, who I should say, like, I'm not really friends with any of them now because they were people that I was just kind of using as like distraction, people I was working with or whatever. So that I wasn't— because I didn't want to focus on real life and what I thought I really needed to do. So I think my advice would be like, don't get disheartened by rejection, and you're gonna fuck up, and there's gonna be stuff that's very difficult. Maybe you're gonna go broke, like maybe you're gonna struggle through some stuff, but like that's normal and it's okay and everyone does it. Like, absolutely everyone, mostly everyone goes through stuff like that and it's fine and it won't last forever. So just go and, go and actually do something. Stop sitting on your ass at work drinking Prosecco out of a teacup so the clients can't tell.

Sounds very specific.

Yeah, it was fun.

That's a really lovely answer, and I think it leads on very nicely to my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, which is: when you first, you know, started out with this idea of your dream career being in photography, you would have had a certain idea of what success in that career would look like. And fast forward to where you are now, with everything you've learned and experienced along the way, what is your definition of success in your career?

I'm the wrong person to ask because I don't think I'll ever be like satisfied with a definition of success. To me, it's— I guess it would be— oh man, I don't know. Like, I've been asked this before and I just don't know because I'd like to say it's that I'm happy with my work and I like how it looks, but that lasts like 5 minutes. And then I'm already looking for the next thing. So I don't know, and I can't say it's money. Obviously money plays quite a big part in it for me, at least. Sorry, I know no one's meant to say that, but like, I don't want to be broke. I've been broke and it's not fun. Yeah, I have money goals and I have a lot of goals with my work, more goals with my work and what I want to do and who I want to show it to. But for me, like, the goalposts of success are always going to be moving. And I think it's the same for most people. Like, you could say my, my goal of success is going to be to make £1 million, but then you make £1 million and you're like, hmm, I could do with a bit more, whatever, you know, like. I don't think I have a, have a definition of it. And I'd also like to say, oh, it's to be happy, but like. It's probably not going to be enough for me either, so I don't know. Sorry, really bad end to the podcast.

Those are the answers that I love, and you know, that's the common theme throughout this episode. You just say exactly what you think, and yeah, I really appreciate it, and I'm sure our listeners will too. So thanks so much for coming on, I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me, it was fun.