Freddy Clode, Host @ The Rugby Pod

Freddy, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much for having me. It's very enjoyable to be in this wonderful little studio in Hoban.

Yeah, it's great.

If you could just, uh, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do.

Well, yeah, so my name is Freddy Claude. I am a podcaster in all senses of the word. I'm a host, I'm a producer, I'm a sort of editor. I'm a one-stop shop for podcasting, which in this day and age you kind of have to be everything. But obviously I didn't start out in podcasting, I've fallen into it over the last sort of 3, 4 years, taking a weird and wonderful journey from school to university and then sort of 8 years later falling into this.

Yeah, and what is it you like about podcasting so much? Why does it suit you?

Well, I think I've always been quite inquisitive, I've always asked probably too many questions, so I, and also I like to do a lot of research. I'm fascinated by people and I'm also fascinated by a lot of different realms, you know, not just sport but also culture, you know, history. I know you're studying history at UCL.

Yeah.

Something I wish I did at KCL, but I ended up doing politics, which is a nightmare, but maybe we'll get into that later. And I just find the easiness, the quickness of the work is great for me. I love to be able to sit with someone immediately get their story out, edit it up, package it out, make it sound entertaining, exciting, and then immediately call up, you know, my sort of roster of partners commercially and say like, look, I've just got this brilliant guy, you're going to love it, it's perfect for your audience, chuck us some money. And I can do that all by myself in a day from wherever I am in the world. Yeah, to be able to do that, um, having worked in businesses where when I started in advertising for VCCP, which is a huge advertising firm, you were a clog, you know, you would pass something and then somebody else passed you something else and it took maybe 2, 3 years before you got in the room. Whereas this, I run, I own, and you know, I'm self-employed. It means if I'm not making money, I can, you know, work that night and make sure I get money. So, you know, you never have an excuse not to be paid or make more money. So yeah, I think that's why.

Yeah, so I guess in that process, he's very dynamic in that sense. So say, I guess like almost it might be quite hard for our listeners to picture that. You in this situation where you want to make money this night.

Mm-hmm.

What's the process there? So you just, in terms of like booking a guest or something like that?

Ultimately now I work for a lot of different companies. I met this guy called Fred Colazzo, I'll have to give him a shout out. He runs and owns the Rugby Pod, which is obviously the Jim Helms and Andy Good podcast, which I've produced and I've also hosted their live shows. And I now do content for them. But he just sold his podcast to Spotify, The Rugby Pod, last year. And the amount of money in that is just completely crazy, mind-blowing. But he turned out to be, he sent me a message on LinkedIn about 2 years ago and he said, "Do you wanna come and do some work with me, whatever? I've really loved The Rugby Biz," which is another podcast I do. I love what you've done with it. I think it's completely different to any other podcast out there. And so he sort of gave me the gig and it turns out that he's like the Rupert Murdoch of podcasting. So he's got a finger in every single pie, not just in sport, but, you know, in business, podcasts, in culture and music, whatever, like. And now he's got the connections to Spotify. He's really shown me how you can hustle and the ways to go around getting gigs. Now, for me personally, I know that a lot of companies— I was mentioning on the way in that City AM, you know, we've been doing some stuff together and It's as simple as seeing a corporation which is obviously looking, you know, they've all got their marketing budgets each year and they're still spending it in traditional ways. They're still throwing out newsletters, which they're throwing thousands at, nobody's reading. They're still doing all these old-fashioned things which no one actually gives a shit about. Whereas if you give a voice to your company and you can update your colleagues, your competitors, whatever it may be. I do a podcast out in Watford with this building company. Who build all the Sainsbury's in the UK. And you'd be like, why do they want to do a podcast? Well, 'cause they just got spare marketing money and they're like, let's just have a fucking laugh. But ultimately now all their competitors are going like, Jesus Christ, it's really interesting what you're doing. They're getting all these amazing people from the industry and I do my jingles for that as well. So I try to make it like a light-hearted, I mean, you would've thought like in that world of construction and building Sainsbury's up and down the country, it's not very glamorous or fun, but we've made it like a really light-hearted podcast. Anyway. Now all their competitors are really jealous. They've set up their own bit of tech which they're selling off and they're using the podcast to promote that. So basically I think in podcasting, because even though we're 5, 6 years into it properly being an established and respected industry, it's still so untouched. I mean, don't get me wrong, you guys are doing podcasting now which is brilliant. Everyone, well I say everyone, loads of people are getting involved in it. You know, you guys have got a proper setup doing a wonderful job. But all you need is a microphone and like a connection and you can get it going. And you can interview your mum or whatever, you know. So it's just like everyone has access to it. But to do it properly, in terms of like you guys are and like I do, you know, sort of for a living at the moment, you need to have a hustling mentality where you can go to— you basically have to see opportunities, right? You see big companies, you know they've got money, and you go like, why aren't you doing a podcast? Let's give it a go. Go in, I can do it all for them. I don't need to bring in 10 other people. I can get it done in a day. They go like, oh, well, we sound pretty good. Yeah, let's give it a go.

Definitely.

Yeah, that's something.

No, that was amazing. And I guess in a way You are a podcaster, but you're also kind of a salesman in that sense, especially in the— now you're entering the world into the corporations.

Definitely.

And these people who you've got sort of an information asymmetry over, you know more than them about this.

Definitely. I mean, you have to be a salesman. Like the City AM stuff, I went in and they tried to do a podcast before and it turned out that they were doing 10 different shows on one stream. So people who'd like subscribe to listen to the daily news update were then getting like horse racing odds. From a horse racing show. And like, they just completely, you know, it's just crazy in this day and age that they could get it so badly wrong. But you've got to be a salesman. I mean, obviously, like, I suppose any job when you're self-employed, if you're not going to be a salesman, if you're not going to sell your own stuff, then you're never going to get any shows. You may get, you know, occasionally handed one or two things, but you've got to sell yourself. And even working for the Red Beards, which was the first, the reason I fell into podcasting, we had to sell our own, you know, our own product. We had to go to companies and go like, what are we worth? And the American model was the only model which existed then about 2 years ago. And it was, you should be paid, I think, between $7.50 and $10 per 1,000 listeners, right? Per CPM. And we went in there and we're like, "Jeez, you know, we're getting like 20,000 listeners," whatever it was. And we're going like, "Right, well, it's still not very good money. I mean, what's the point of doing that?

Do you know what I mean?" We can't live off that.

And then suddenly, luckily, we met this guy called James. He turned out not to be a brilliant salesman for us. But he gave us an idea of what we could charge for our podcast because we have a 90% male audience, middle-class guys between 18 and 40. They've all got money they want to spend. You know, I always use the Desert Island Discs example. Brilliant show, probably one of the most listened to podcasts in the world. But the problem is you've got a 50/50 split, 12-year-old girls up to 90, you know, 95-year-old men. So, you know, I know BBC can't commercialize, do advertising, but if they could, how do they sell that? Because, you know, just how do they do it? And so luckily we know we've got 90%, you know, 90% men who are interested in sport, girls, whatever it may be. We can sell things. Definitely.

So podcasting's your career now, but you went to KCL studying politics, and then from the outside looking in, you went down the more traditional career path, you know, very eclectic experience in the more conventional career routes. What do you think the pros and cons of that experience were and How do you think it's developed you into who you are now, where you are in your career?

That's a good question. I mean, the pros are the world has changed dramatically since I went to university. I only left university 10 years ago, right? I'm 29 now. Well, less than 10 years ago, whatever it may be. 2012-ish, I think it was. No, it was the Olympics. I can't remember. Anyway, roughly 10 years ago. And in that time, it's now and accepted, if not encouraged, to not go to university. If you know what you want to do and you don't want to— you know, you guys are probably spending— I was the last year where you spent £9,000. Yeah, guys, probably £30,000 plus, whatever it may be, right? Yeah, yeah. So if you don't know what you can do, especially if you've had a good education, sorry, if you've got an idea what you want to do, then I think nowadays it's a lot more accepted to go and do what you want to do, or it's accepted to go and study things you may have an interest in. Whereas when I was going to university, a bit like you guys studying economics, history, I would love to have done history, but like I ended up doing international politics because I fucked up my AS levels when I was at school. I was going out with this girl in the year above me, beautiful girl, lovely girl. And I spent the whole, you know, when you're 17, I was at a school at King's Canterbury, right? It's a school in the middle of the city. We went to the pub every night, literally just ruined my ASs. But luckily I could retake them. But I had to do my application to university then. And I sort of jokingly said, I'll do 5 applications to the best universities for my course, International Politics. And I got 1 offer back, 4 rejections, rightly so, I did awful. And then I got 1 offer from KCL, and I was like, fuck, that's a really good university. I'm gonna have to go. And I redid my ASes in January, then got my A-levels, got the grades, you know, completely changed my grades, ended up going. And then suddenly I rocked up at KCL, now I'm from London, right, born and bred, I don't know about you guys, but you're from Scotland, obviously.

Yeah.

Are you from London? Yeah, I'm from London. Right. And then I don't know if you find it weird, but going to uni in London is quite a weird one when you've lived in London your whole life, right?

It's not a uni experience.

It's not a uni experience at all. And then I was seeing all my friends going to all these incredible, you know, up at Durham, York, wherever they were, you know, Newcastle especially, just like having the time of their lives. And I was like, oh, I'm going into like 2 hours of lectures a day and then not really doing anything outside that. Massively foreign body, you know, it was like an 80% Chinese who didn't actually speak English as a first language in my course. So there wasn't that much banter. Right? There wasn't like that much to do outside. And so I was just like, Jesus, this is a bit weird. I should have gone straight to work. Anyway, stuck with it. But, sorry, I'm going on a massive tangent here. I don't know. But yes, so stuck with it. And then I started doing internships on my summers and those are what I really loved. I worked for bookmakers, which ended up sadly being closed down by the authorities, but it was really good fun. And then I ended up going to work at VCCP and I was working in the VR and AR, when VR and AR 10 years ago was like a new thing.

Very novel, yeah.

And we had a couple of clients, we had IKEA and we had someone else, and we were doing, we were using AR to show what, you know, which is now common practice, but to show what your TV would look like in that space, in your sitting room or your sofa, whatever it may be. And I absolutely loved it, and I immediately went like, I just wish I'd been doing this for the last 2, 3 years, got offered a job there. Now, to go back to your question, which was what are the pros and cons of the traditional route, right? The pros are like, it's a well-trodden path, you know, you've seen generations come before you and go on to succeed in life, which is, you know, sort of feels harder and harder to do in this day and age, or stay, stick with it. Whereas I think though, even 10, 15 years ago, people would be stuck in a career, maybe 2, 3 jobs throughout their career, right? Now that's changed massively. I mean, I've had about 5 since I left uni.

Yeah.

And every single one has been successful in a way. But obviously they've come to an end each for their own different reasons. But like, I think you could probably— the pro is it's a comforting blanket, right? You know you can't go to— most of my friends work in insurance, okay? You don't have to be the smartest person in the world to work in insurance. But you know that if you keep your head down, get pissed 3 days a week, not 5, get the work done, you'll have a job, you'll go up the— the ladder, and you'll be fine.

Yeah.

Whereas my life is a bit more risky, it's a bit more day-to-day. But then I like that because you're alive every day.

Yeah, you're kept on your toes in a sense.

Yeah.

I hope that answered it.

No, definitely. And I guess leading on from that, as you say, you mentioned you had 5 traditional job experiences. I think on your LinkedIn you've got about like 23 different jobs, which is crazy.

Yeah, that's embarrassing.

No, no, and to be honest, that's something that I really respect. And I guess like Leading on from that, how would you— so in this sense, there's a few things that can lead on from this, but it must take quite a dynamic mindset in terms of always looking to the future, even probably in what you're doing right now. You're looking ahead. What are some tips on that sort of mindset for— obviously, young people are encouraged now to job hop and leverage those sort of things. What are some tips for staying that dynamic?

Well, I mean, the reason I'm proud of 23— probably only about 5 of them are valid, or I actually made money from. But I think I was obsessed. Obsessed with trying to make a name of myself, right? I was obsessed with trying to become successful too early. I think that was one thing I've learned. I was so desperate to try and be the person, which there's probably one in every single group of friendship ever, of friends, where they go like, "Oh, fuck. Look, he's doing so well. He's famous. He's known." You know what I mean? I was so set on doing that from such a young age that I had my own music management company when I was at university, which was great fun, but Ultimately, I was convinced I was going to get— actually, the people I signed to there have now all gone on to be huge acts, ironically. But I didn't know what I was doing. But I was just so obsessed with trying to find ways to make money and be that early guy, that early successful guy, which everyone goes, like, fuck, he's done well since school. That actually I ended up probably not spending enough time kind of just getting my head down and making sure I sort of learnt the trade and kind of you know, made my own path in the right way. And so that was a regret of mine. Another regret was probably, you know, you said the 23 jobs, just probably over-exaggerating and over-pushing those things. I thought I was being really, as you said, dynamic and active, which I was to a certain degree. But at the same time, there were friends of mine looking, going like, "This is a fucking joke. Like, what is he doing?" You know, one minute he's this, then he's that, then he's this. But then at the same time, you have to really put yourself on different sides of the equation. You have to make yourself uncomfortable, and actually you end up learning a lot about a lot of different industries, which then when you run your own company, which is legit, proper, and you're making money off, I think you learn a lot from all those different things.

I guess, yeah.

So it was, you know, for my friends who are lawyers now and, you know, whatever, working finance, insurance, I think they found it a bit funny seeing me jump around the whole time and trying to— but I think it was just a desperation. So I would say don't kind of push yourself too hard too soon, but also don't be afraid to, you know, don't be afraid to fail. Because ultimately I was so nervous about failure that I ended up jumping ship before things officially failed, even though they were failing. So don't be scared to fail, and you know, just get yourself— I mean, I don't know what you guys want to do post, um, post-university, but you've got to get out there and experience things because life nowadays is so much more different even than 10 years ago. And I think it's an accepted path and accepted to go out and be exposed, fail early, try things, you know what I mean? With the internet as it is nowadays and with connections, it's never been better or easier to start your own company, to be able to like try and do stuff and be successful.

Yeah, definitely. I think it seems like you've got, well, a lot of passions, but one I wanna sort of hone in in particular is rugby, which, you know, I saw on your LinkedIn as well that very early on you were coaching overseas, you were doing journalism stuff, and maybe you've like refound that as a career path now doing the Rugby Pod stuff, the Rugbyers. Do you have any advice on converting a passion into a career?

Well, it's a good question. So I was a big, big rugby player, I was captain of my school, was playing sort of, well, just about county. I say just about, I should have stuck as flanker, but I decided to go for hooker in the county trials and kind of came into a bit of a fight with the coach, but that's by the by. You know, I was captain of school and I loved rugby. Went on tour to Argentina when I was 17 and Uruguay, had an amazing time, and then went to New York and coached out there. Absolutely loved it. And then went to KCL, rocked up the first day, and it was different. School rugby is amazing. You're playing with your friends, you're all the same age. It's a great experience. You've grown up together. Suddenly at university, the guy's 3 years above you and they're trying to make you like fucking down a dirty pint and fucking eat a pig's head, whatever it is. And it just wasn't my vibe. Also being in London.

Archie Curzon vibes.

Archie Curzon vibes. Also being in London, you had to go, I don't know if it's the same for you, but like 40-minute train out somewhere in the country.

For training.

But like in the suburbs on like a Wednesday night. And I was like, I can't be arsed to do this.

That's why we stopped doing it.

Yeah, so I gave up, which is a big regret of mine. I've played a couple of times since. I still play touch occasionally. But I loved rugby and then I kind of fell out of love with it. Anyway, then when I started doing the podcasting after a couple of the jobs, you know, advertising, then into— I was putting on a show in the West End and then I started working this magazine doing sort of reviews and advertising sales. And then just before lockdown, I started doing my own podcast about 6 months before because I always knew that I always wanted to be a commentator in cricket, actually, weirdly. That was always my number one ambition. Yeah. And then I realized— I applied many times for that and it didn't really come off. Then I realized that wasn't going to happen, or not yet. And then I was like, what, what's next best? Asking questions, journalism, whatever. And I was like, I'm not getting any gigs doing fucking radio or anything, so I might as well start my own podcast. And luckily, through my friends of the family and stuff like that, I managed to get a couple of famous names, or famous ish to get a podcast, my own podcast going. And then I met Archie Kers and Mr. Ori, is his real name. Unfortunately, I don't want to break everyone's heart. But I'd seen his rise and fall, which was fascinating because he was the first person. I don't know if you've seen Don't Drop the Egg on YouTube. But that was like the first viral— before YouTube was used for like slightly longer format videos, him and Uniland, if you've seen that. Sorry, Harmonization Man.

It was on BT Sport, wasn't it?

Yeah, he was on BT Sport after it as well. But that was— and they got like a million views, which at that time for like a mockumentary was incredible. Yeah. You know, this is like, I don't know, 10 years. It's 10th anniversary this year, actually. Sorry, 2023. And it was just— it went viral everywhere. And I was just like, this is incredible. I want to be doing stuff like that. You know, I want to be creating content. Anyway, I'd seen his rise and fall because he'd been amazing. And then he'd refused— sorry, he'd refused to give up on his dream when all the other 2 people who he did it with had given up. And you know, another lesson there, maybe you sort of know when to quit. And he started creating all this awful, awful content, doing different characters on YouTube. You know, he'll admit it himself. And I then saw he'd started his Instagram account and, you know, after sort of 4 years of not doing anything, and people were like ready to, you know, like when you see all these reunion bands, like you see like Blue come out or like we interviewed Busted the other day. Charlie Simpson from Busted. And like they were nobody 4 years ago, but then suddenly if you time it right, They then sold 100,000 tickets in the first minute because like there's a time for these things to come back.

Yeah, definitely.

And so he came back with a slightly new character. Anyway, I interviewed him and off the back of that, that sort of opened the door to podcasting. And just because his character played Clapham Falcons rugby, that was really the reason I got back into rugby, weirdly. Because a couple of like famous rugby people followed him and I said like, if we're doing a podcast, our first 3 or 4 were just us chatting and they were like 10 minutes long. And then I was like, we should probably start interviewing people. I was, it's gonna be pretty shit. And he was like, right, well, who are we gonna get? I was like, well, let's get Benders, 'cause he was actually friends with Nick and Ben. And then after, so we had Benders the third ep, and then we had Danny Care, who we saw followed Archie the next ep. And then after that, we got Olly Pope and all these people who were basically any, anyone famous who followed him. But then suddenly I was working on a successful podcast, which had thousands of listeners every week. We wanted to commercialise. And it was in the rugby space. And then I was like, wow, I'm actually kind of working, like this kind of joke thing. And then I remember like the first time we realized it was legit is we did this thing for the World Cup in 2019, just before lockdown. And it was a 6:00 AM kickoff, 'cause remember it was in Japan. England, Australia. And we sold like 250 tickets in 30 seconds. I was like, let's see like what the audience is like. 'Cause we hadn't sold anything. And I was like, right, fuck, this is like serious. What was this for?

Just to clap?

This was just to come watch the game with us in the public lap. And I brought my PA system from my house at 6 AM and we did like a 10-minute halftime announcement. That was it. We made like, charged 10 quid each. Wow. Made pretty good money for doing absolutely nothing. And then I was like, right, and then should we create these caps? Yeah, it's these Captain Falcon caps. Sold like 2,000. I was like, oh, fuck me, this isn't a niche anymore, this is legit. Anyway, so that's how I got back into rugby. And then off the back of that, You know, obviously we've got— I don't know if you guys know Howard Stern in America.

Yeah, yeah.

He was always my hero. And so I always wanted to do controversial things. I was like, how do we keep things interesting? The jingles, the fake adverts, the comedy, the different bits, the prank calls. I want to like never know. I mean, obviously we've now done over 100 episodes. You can't always make it that different. But like we wanted to keep people coming back no matter if they like the sound of the guest or not. And so, yeah, so he was always a great inspiration to me. But then suddenly I was a legit person working in podcasts and suddenly I was a legit person working in rugby. Yeah. So then I started getting all these offers to go and do, you know, the Rugby Pod things. Fred, Fred, forgive— um, I also, uh, produce The Rugby Pass Offload, which is the one Ryan Wilson makes. Um, we've now got, like, you know, I took that over, they had about 2,000, 2,000 listeners. We're now getting like a million across.

Yeah, that's really good enough impressions and platforms and stuff like that.

So like, I've helped that grow massively because when I when I came on board, it was a lady called Christina Mahon, who was a lovely, lovely Irish lady. She works in URC, but she wasn't quite right for the podcast I wanted to produce for them. And they had Ryan Wilson, who was brilliant, but then they had Jamie Roberts, the most boring man in the world. They had Dylan Hartley, the second most boring man in the world, and then Simon Zeebo, who just is a lovely guy, but was just like, he doesn't have much of an opinion on anything. He just laughs. Yeah. And so it's quite hard to create a podcast with that dynamic. And so I said, like, if this wants to be successful, we're gonna have to changer, and then we got Max Le Heath, who at that time just done those viral interviews and stuff. Yeah, yeah, him and Ryan. And like, now it's just got, got massive. And the World Rugby have just bought Rugby Pass, so we're hoping to like have a really big year next year with the World Cup. Anyway, literally, so without being anybody, I'd then gone to being like producing 3 of the 4 biggest rugby pods. Wow. In Europe. Yeah, like in a year. Um, and hosting a couple of them. Yeah. So the advice I was thinking about, like, I could never have felt further away from being legit when I was applying to cricket commentary jobs 5, 6 years ago.

Yeah.

Even when I started that podcast and I was interviewing like family friends who were ready to be famous, I was putting them out. No one's really listening, but like, I knew I could do it. I knew I could do it. Even when I was applying to this cricket commentary stuff, I knew I could do it, but I was never given the opportunity. You've got like you've just got to keep in there and you've got to— the biggest things which have come off for me, I've got up an email address, I've got up a phone number, I've got up a contact, and I've looked at it and I've gone like, nah, there's no point doing it because I know what he's going to say. If I— so for example, I ended up doing a, um, I hosted the biggest cricket podcast last year with Ben Stokes and Stuart Broad, and I had a friend who knew Ben Stokes loosely, and I was like, fuck it, like, I don't want the awkwardness of me asking, "Hey mate, can you do me a favour? Can you ask Stokes if he wants to come on the pod?" Yeah. Because I knew the answer would be no. Stokes is like the biggest guy in the world, especially last year with all the depression stuff and everything. But everything and every time I've had an opportunity or like a moment like that and I've had the balls to go through with it, it's changed my life. Yeah. Same with the Rugby Pod, hosting that. Same with, actually, the Rugby Podcast stuff I got off it. Same with loads of commercial gigs I've got. Same with all these new sponsors, like with Athletic Greens recently, I've gone like, "Fuck, why would they want to sponsor us?" We've had some good sponsors, but then, and actually you do it. So I think every time you doubt yourself and you look at an opportunity, if it's there, go for it, because those things have changed my life. I sent the guy a text, which doesn't sound like much at all, but you know when it's a mate of yours, you don't really want that awkwardness of him going like, "Oh mate, whatever." Anyway, he was like, "Yeah, yeah, we'll see what we can do." He came on the Read Beards a week later and then literally the next day I got a phone call and he's like, Stokesy called me this morning, they want to start a podcast and they want you to host it. And I was like, fuck me. I've gone from like, I'm a huge cricketer, you know, cricket's bigger than rugby for me. I'm obsessed with it. And it's like, I don't know, having watched Stokes and Broad my whole life, basically, especially Broad, and never felt, you know, I've like been that weird fanboy. You know, we stayed in the same hotel as them in Cardiff and around the world because my family go around the world to watch it. And like weirdly, me and my brother like, oh my God, we like waved at Stuart Broad. Do you know what I mean? And then I sat with him hosting a podcast, which is crazy. Like, and that just all comes from, I don't know, just like having the balls to go through it. Yeah, I just think you've got to believe, but also believe in yourself. I always knew I could do it. And then you realize like having then, same with the Rugby Pod, hosting that tour, you know, doing 500 people every night, whatever it was. And like having nights out with Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode. 6 years ago for my birthday, my mate bought me a ticket to go see them.

Yeah.

One of their first shows in Soho. And we were stuffed right at the back and we were loving it. And then suddenly they're friends of yours, you're hosting them, you're on the road with them for 4 weeks. Like that all just comes from, I don't know, I think you just got to have the belief you can do something, but also the confidence to go through with it.

Well, yeah, I mean, we just interviewed like a famous DJ as well and she had the exact same advice. Just do it, ask people, people are way nicer than you think. And as you say, having the balls to go through that, it can change your life. And I guess in terms of this rise that you mentioned there, I mean, that story about seeing the Rugby Pod and stuff, I guess as a normal bloke with these athletes at the top of their game and stuff in this field, a lot of our guests in the past in traditional jobs have felt they had imposter syndrome and stuff like that. Has that been something that you've felt at all that's been a threat? Obviously, as you say, this meteoric rise.

Well, it's funny, I interviewed Ian Dale. I don't know if you know who he is. He presents LBC.

LBC, the radio show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he's like the, you know, you've got him, you've got Ferrari. Yeah, Ferrari in the morning, him, and then Ian Dale. And I interviewed Ian Dale and it was brilliant. I had him for about 2 hours and he was like crying at the end. It was wonderful. It was a great experience. And in a good way. Nice. And I remember him saying he's still, he's been working, you know, primetime radio for like 10 years. He still says he has imposter syndrome. For me, I did at first, but then I think you realize that the whole thing is bullshit. You realize the whole thing is a lie. The reason we're worshiping Stuart Broad and Ben Stokes is 'cause they can play cricket. The reason, you know, they don't have an exact like skill to make them famous. They're just good at sport. And then like same with Goody and Jim. I mean, you see them like, they're just worse behaved than normal people. And you kind of go like, there's no real secret here. The only secret is the confidence to go through with their talent, their skill, and just to find their niche and keep going. But it's a weird one. I did have imposter syndrome. And I remember getting the train up to Edinburgh to do that first gig when I saw you for the Rugby Pod. And I was like, fuck me, I can't believe. The thing I was nervous about then is because they hadn't announced it. And I didn't really want to walk out and they were all expecting Andy Rowe. I mean, not that Andy Rowe is the most exciting person in the world, but like, They're all expecting Andy Rowe, and then I walk out like a kind of posh guy going like, "Welcome to the RobyPod." And everyone's like, "Who the fuck's this cunt?" Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe he's just doing the intros and then he's gonna go off. And like, why is he sitting down? That was the thing I was a bit nervous about. And also like Andy Rowe had kind of given me no advice on like how to run the show. He's like, "Mate, literally you don't have to say anything. You say hello and don't say a word." It kind of was true though, wasn't it? Well, it kind of was, but I'd done a lot of research I did the pod with Ryan Wilson, I got the questions out, I was ready to go, and all the other shows, I was asking questions to then fire those guys off to then have the debates. And thank God I had done the research and not listened to Andy Rowe, because then I remember Goody, Jim, Ryan all came out and sat next to me, and then they all turned to me ready for the question. And I was like, oh fuck, thank God I'm prepped. Yeah, yeah. Because Andy Rowe said you'd have to do anything. I think he was trying to fuck me over so he could get his job back. But yeah, I think in general, imposter syndrome is always going to be there at the beginning, but I've recently realized that like within a second I can, I can work with Stokes and Broad, within a second I can work with those other guys. Yeah, that changed my view on like, I don't know, things can feel so far away in life, right? Yeah, with your new jobs, I don't know what you're going to try and apply to do, whatever it is, trying to get to the next company, trying to get to that promotion can feel like a thousand miles away, but then suddenly it happens in a second. And like, I think when you realise that things happen so quickly and can happen so quickly, you then just realise that this whole world is basically just— everyone's bullshitting.

So from the outside looking in, you appear very successful. You know, if someone were to look at your CV or LinkedIn, it seems that you've had a lot of success. But I think ultimately what's most important is your own idea of success. And I was wondering, how has that changed from when you graduated to where you are now, like your definition of success?

It's a hard one, isn't it? Because is it a fiscal question, or, you know, in your own mind, or is it a respect question? I think respect, especially from your family, is always something you really, you know, crave. Yeah. And for me, that was a problem in certain things. My sister's a high-flying lawyer for an American firm. My brother works for Montagu Evans Property. Traditional, yeah, you know, yeah. I'm the middle child who sort of took a slightly different path. And success is a weird one, isn't it? It's so hard to define. But I think my parents— actually, no, my dad actually understood it a lot better than my mum, I think, at first. But like, she would always want, you know, being a Jewish mum, lawyer, doctor, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And like, it's easy just to go like, "Mum, my daughter's a lawyer, I'm so fucking proud of her," all this brilliant stuff. You know, you know she's doing well. But then actually over the years, I think she's gotten way more excited by like my kind of crazy escapades. And all the wins I have are my own, right? Everything I do, as my girlfriend always reminds me, is like self-made. And so like to be able to go and sign like big contracts and to be able to go and get these huge like companies to come aboard with us for, you know, months or years or whatever it may be, all brokered, all done through an idea we had, a creation we had, or I had, is an incredible feeling. To be able to go and sit next to people a bit like we are today and like put out something which is then topping the sports charts around the world is crazy. Yeah. But I mean, that is successful in its own right, but it's a weird one, I suppose. As I said earlier, the way the world has shifted from what was acceptable 10 years ago to now, and like the way the workplace has changed and the way, you know, you guys can take more risks probably in your 20s and you guys are trying to do your own thing. Like, I just think that's the same with success. It used to be looked at as like, how much is he making? What company is he at? Where, you know, where's he standing? Whereas now I think it's a lot more fluid. It's a lot more like, I don't know, real. It's a lot more creative. It's a lot more respectful of like tasks you want to undertake. And ultimately, if you run your own company, you're making money. Yeah. You know, renting a lovely house in Clapham, your girlfriend's happy, you're happy. You can't not be.

Yeah. I guess on that way, I mean, you weren't always taking as big Ws. You mentioned you and Archie— well, what was his real name?

Ori.

Ori.

Yeah.

In the studio, no one was listening to your show. When you didn't have those Ws to come home to your parents and show them that you are doing well, what sort of kept you motivated in that time?

Well, I think that kept me motivated. I think the failure keeps you more motivated than the win sometimes, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to go home. I remember at one point I ended up working like 3 jobs secretly. I was renting a flat, things weren't going my way. I was in between, well, I just started this job at a magazine. This venture I've been doing with a friend, putting on a show in the West End, had just sort of come to a natural end because he was an ex-Goldman Sachs partner, youngest partner ever to retire and get, like, he was multimillionaire. And he had created this incredible show which I sort of played a part in over a couple of years, the three of us, and Universal Music got involved and like it was crazy. And then suddenly we lost one of our partners to cancer. And because he'd already had his career, this guy made his money, he had all these other ventures, he had his money in, you know, big supercar collector, stuff like that. He wasn't on the same pace as I was. I wanted things to happen quickly. I was going home every night telling the guys, fuck, we're going to be in New York in a couple of months, you know what I mean? And we nearly got there, but it didn't quite come off. And like, we weren't— I was in such a rush. I was in my mid-20s. I was hungry to like fucking go home and go like, this is, you know, we're doing well, we're winning. And so then I left that company, but then I ended up like, you know, you say, what kept you motivated? Well, like, I ended up going to work just like 3 basically part-time jobs. During my magazine job. So I'd work from like 7 in the morning till about 5 for the magazine, and then I'd go straight from the magazine and I'd go work at Pergola. My mate had a restaurant there. Yeah. And I'd work there till midnight, and then I'd fucking get up at like 5 in the morning, go to work again. And I did that for about like 3, 3 and a half months just to make sure I had enough money and, you know, whatever kept going.

Yeah.

And then obviously everything turned around, the magazine started going well, and that was it. But like, those little things, like, what keeps you going? Firstly, you don't want to show your head to anyone if you're not doing well, and so it forces you to work harder. But also, you've got to realize that, like, things don't always go your way. Like, you'd love to control everything, and it'd be great to have yeses the whole time, but ultimately you've got to have failed ventures. Like, and as long as you can afford to have failed ventures and you've got a good support network around you, or you support yourself. Ultimately, there's no excuse, especially like for you guys, if you're going to go do your own thing, you've probably got enough money around you, or you've got the motivation to work hard enough to keep things going. I knew I had to go take a shit job to keep things going in the short term, but it worked.

Just touching on what you were saying about being happy and that being important for generally feeling successful, how do you keep yourself happy, especially when you're trying to do so much, you know, prevent burnout, like, What are some habits that you need to have happen in your everyday life to keep you sort of happy and motivated?

So in the last year I got a Peloton, right? It's completely changed my life, I'm not even joking.

This isn't sponsored, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, please sponsor. But weirdly, I used to have, especially now, what is it, about 3 degrees today? Yeah. And I remember working, I was living in a house in Vauxhall, and I just found it impossible to get out the house and go for a run. Maybe I'd do one run a week and I'd be like, fuck me, I feel great. Like, you know what I mean? That was a half an hour run. Yeah. And I was like, that was amazing. And then I got this Peloton and it sits next to my desk. And so every day I get on it just because like it's the one thing I have to do every day. And honestly, like, and I know it's so fucking— it sounds a bit liberal, blah di dah, like whatever bullshit stuff, but like ultimately it is true. The endorphins you get from that, they're like the natural cannabinoids in your body make you feel so incredible. It also flushes out the system of any anger, failure. I only do like 20 minutes, like a HIIT class when I run there. But weirdly, that has just made me, and weirdly now when I don't do it, like the other day I was so hungover I just couldn't get on the bike. And I came back to my flat and my girlfriend was like, "Oh, you're a bit weird," you know, whatever. And I was just in a bad mood, because I was angry that I hadn't done that. I was also angry that I hadn't been able to get rid of all the negativity throughout my day, small tasks which hadn't quite gone my way through the bike. So weirdly, that is actually— and like, please do sponsor this podcast or our podcast— but honestly, that is like, I can't put— especially when you get a bit older, I think when you're younger, when you're your age, you probably don't need to do it as much. But like, when you, when you get— I mean, I'm not that old, but like towards your late 20s, you need to— suddenly your body starts going to different shapes without you realizing if you don't do work. And like, that is just like, honestly, I, I know it sounds like we're listening to some horrible like American podcast where like some fucking—

Get on the bike.

Yeah, some ladies just like going rants.

I mean, it is science at the end of the day, isn't it?

So I mean, Pete, you mentioned how that you go to gym every day, that's really helped you. I mean, I like to stay active as well and I can't even like describe how good that makes you feel.

Yeah, you lose it all when you go to university as well. Like, you know, at school you're naturally doing it all.

Oh yeah, because school you're probably doing sport, but if you go to— if you're lucky enough to go to a to the school of physics, or whatever, you're probably doing sport like an hour a day at least, right? And then suddenly you're sat on the sofa. I mean, I put on so much weight and became disgraced. So you've got to keep going. But also like stuff like, I don't know, I'm a big fan of cooking and stuff like that. Like getting home and like instead of like whacking in a HelloFresh, great company, please sponsor us.

Sorry about the fake clients.

Yeah, sorry about the fake clients, I apologize about that. But like spending an hour just like creating stuff or like For me, playing guitar as well, right? So I love my music. Things where you can just get out. It's a bit like taking a drug, I imagine. I've never had. But you can kind of get out the room, right? Like you can get out of the reality of what's going on in your life. Just something which can get your head out there. Like sport, music. For me, it's playing guitar and cooking and sport.

So true. And it's somewhere like, I mean, I'm not from London. In London where you're so busy every minute of the day, having something which is just like almost mundane and like only for you. Yeah, just spend some time with yourself. Like, I never— like, it's so good taking up something like that. Well, I guess on like your career and stuff, moving on slightly, um, do you have any ideas about the future? And what does the future hold for Freddie Clowde, would you say?

Well, it's a good question. It's a very good question. Ultimately, we're looking at— so I'm moving into the studio on Old Street. I've got this brand new podcast studio with these sort of video capabilities as well. This amazing partnership I've managed to forge with this guy, and I'm going to bring in clients, corporate clients, as I mentioned in the weigh-in earlier. You have big guys to come and sort of pay, pay to play. So like, I would then offer them a service alongside the production work I do with like, you know, I say proper podcasts, like more sort of chart-toppers.

Yeah.

But I think there's quite a good opportunity there for me just to, as like a side hustle, we can have sort of 5 or 6 commercial clients coming in, corporate clients coming in every day and paying to get their podcast looking good and stuff like that. So that's been a great opportunity which is starting the new year, but also I've got a couple of things which are coming up which one, well, one I can't mention because we haven't actually signed off on it yet, but two pods which I think are going to change the game in this country at least. They're quite Americanized One is quite risqué. It's, you know, the root biz is a bit naughty, but this is like a whole new level. I think it's gonna grab the country by its nuts, as it were, and I think that's gonna be a really, really big hit. So basically growing the podcasting, but also like, look, I'm not shying away from the fact that I'm looking for a legit offer to go and do hosting or journalism for maybe bigger companies. Obviously I've now had, you know, I work on 3 of the 4 biggest rugby pods, I've had the biggest cricket pod, and I've got all these other commercial ones. But I'm looking to probably get that next step. I'd love to go and do work for like your Sky, your BTs.

Yeah, cricket commentary, still in the game.

Still do that. But like, you know, I think I've worked up enough body work or even to go and produce on those shows. You know, I've got an amazing track record now in sport, and podcasting and radio now sit hand in hand, whereas they used to be, you know, could have weird cousins. Now they're definitely brothers.

Yeah, definitely.

It's interesting to see you've obviously attributed a lot of your success to your own hard work and whatnot, but then a lot of it also to networking and having the right people around you. Advice to people our age, you know, 21, about to graduate, how do you get in those right circles? What are some things people should be doing now to sort of develop that network?

Well, you know, as you said earlier, people are generally a lot nicer than you think they will be, firstly. So especially if you're passionate about your hobby or your, you know, your vocation, like whatever you want to do, don't be afraid to ask the questions. As I said earlier, you know, don't be afraid to like— anything which feels awkward is probably actually— there's a reason it's awkward, it's because it's going to be the right thing to do, and actually people aren't going to respond in the way you think they may. They're probably going to be a lot nicer even if they do say no. Secondly, like, you've got to realize that with these opportunities, one thing coming your way opens up a whole, whole flood of other contacts. Like, I've now got, like, just— I was looking at it because we're trying to get a guest on another podcast next week and I was like, who should we get? And I was just flicking through old WhatsApp chats and I'm like, what, like, why the fuck do I have like just the most incredible people? Like, I haven't even really spoken to them. And that's all came from like one sort of little offering. So I think you shouldn't be scared to like put yourself out there firstly. But how do you get into the circle is the main question, right? Like, how do you get into that? It's a hard one because we've all got our own backgrounds. Like, my mum's played a huge part in opening doors for me initially in the podcasting world. But then that didn't necessarily attribute to my, I mean, gave me Andy Wilman who is the top producer in Grand Tour. Suddenly through that, he said he really enjoyed what I did. He then gave me a little thing. I mean, I think it comes from like one opening. That's all you need. You need one opening and that can literally open, it doesn't have to be a network, which feels like, you know, sometimes when you listen to a podcast like this and they go like, your network. You immediately think like, "Oh, they're constantly buzzing around you." Like, "Oh, they're a network of people who are always there." It's not true. Like, a network is like one contact to another, to the next, sometimes. So like, as soon as we had this one big South African guy on our pod, I just said to him like, "Mate, just give me this. Give me Siya Khalisi's number, will you?" And he's like, "Okay." And then Siya came on, I said, "Oh, Siya, could you give me, you know, fucking James O'Connor's number?" Whatever. Suddenly, before you know it, you've got like 40 people, and then you will do a good job with them, they then give you 40 more, in my industry. So I think it's just like making sure that you, and also, it comes back, and I said it earlier, and I've said it 1,000 times, don't be afraid to ask the question. If I was too scared to ask one of these guys for someone else, I wouldn't have had about 60 opportunities I've had. And they all come from the next. As soon as you milk one, milk the other, milk the other, milk the other, but make sure you treat them well, and like they have a good time. Because they're the guys who like, you know, just open up the doors because they're the ones who know everyone and they may only know 3 people, but those 3 know 4. And then suddenly, if you're the one person who can keep going through their network, then you're just going to be okay.

Yes. Yeah. Really great advice there. On something previous you mentioned before Peter Wood asked his question, I guess you mentioned you've got something in the works, a more risqué project in terms of podcasting. We've seen like in the new age of media, almost it kind of politically correctness. And so you see something like YouTube with the advertisers getting involved, that a lot of creative process is now at risk. Do you think there's any threats to maybe your industry in podcasting with like, as more advertisers and stuff get involved?

Well, it's funny. Do you know Josh Peters? Yeah. Yeah, we had him on, so he's coming on next week, out next week. We interviewed him on Tuesday on The Rate Beards, and he was saying like he's really been punished by the algorithm because they can't release a video every week because they really want every video to be great. But also a lot of them don't end up seeing the light of day because people complain, lawyers get involved because of the stuff they're doing.

Yeah, that is very like—

Brilliant. So just on that point, I mean, it's a weird one for like the ropey stuff for Rigbeards. Rigbeards weirdly is like, as you guys know, probably we've got a bit of a freedom of license to be outrageous and we love being outrageous. And probably because one's a character, you can get away with a lot more than, you know, than others. But for example, you do get paranoid. Like I said something, we had this OnlyFans girl the other day and I said, she was talking about something horrific and then I said like, oh, maybe he was into it 'cause he went to boarding school or something, you know, implying that like maybe it was something 'cause he was getting like with a guy and whatever. And then suddenly I had to take that out because I was, even though it was a joke and like it didn't even infer anything bad, it wasn't a slur, whatever. You do start to think in this day and age, like one hiccup and you're done.

Yeah.

And so like, yeah, you are kind of oppressed from the freedoms. Like you watch old Howard Stern stuff, the Wack Pack, all this stuff, which made him like unique and crazy.

Couldn't do that.

But like you can't do that nowadays. And I think podcasting does have more freedom than YouTube because YouTube, you're reliant on an algorithm, whereas podcasting, you have quite a dedicated audience. But that's why I like YouTube because YouTube, you can, you know, you're sat there and you get turned on to maybe you guys if this was on YouTube. Yeah. Whereas podcasting, you have to type in the name of the podcast to be able to find it, which makes it a way more dedicated audience, but a lot harder to grow a show.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

But yeah, I mean, it is scary. Like, there have been a lot of times where I've thought— when I was working with Stokesy, for example, he would make sure, and rightly so, that like all the questions I was going to ask him are sent through. Yeah.

I doubt you'd say any of your experiences thus far you regret doing, and you're probably happy you've done them all, but Is there anything you wish you were told when you were fresh out of uni? Or even before that, your best piece of advice that sort of resonated with you that was very formative?

So I do, I remember my mum saying to me about a year and a half into working on this show in the West End, she's like, I think it's time you go. And I was like, nah, we've got big things coming. And like, had something changed by sort of a millimetre, we could be out in New York now with a best-selling show. Universal Music got involved, it was incredible. But looking back on it, it probably was the right time to go. But I think a bit like breaking up with a girl, these things come naturally, do you know what I mean? You know deep down when the right time is to go, and actually every single job I've left has been the right time to go when I've looked back on it. But I could have left that one earlier, but then what would have happened? I don't know. I may have just been forced to go get like a slightly more straight job and I wouldn't, you know, it's all that kind of sliding doors effect. But the best advice I ever had, and it comes more into fruition in the jobs I do now, was this guy Phil, who's, you know, one of my brilliant mates, and he was my boss, the ex-Goldman Sachs guy, cleverest guy I've ever met, you know, the youngest partner in Goldman Sachs history, just a genius, a lovely, lovely guy. He said to me, we were going to a meeting, and he said, just act like you've scored the goal at Wembley 1,000 times before. Don't get, 'cause I was getting really excited that we were going to this big meeting with Universal, I think it was, and he was just like, mate, you've always gotta, in life, act like you've scored that goal 1,000 times before. Don't get excited when Stokes goes like, wanna do a pod with you. Don't get excited when you get a big deal with a partner. Don't get, you know, 'cause then you show your hand, then you look like an amateur, you look like a rookie. You're just excited to be in a room. Oh my God, this is incredible. I've just got offered a job at Deutsche Bank, whatever it is, you know, or, you know, all these things. Don't look like you're— because then you look out of depth, then you don't look experienced, then you don't look like you're up to it. Then you just look like you're like, oh, you know, I shouldn't be given this, but fuck it. Like, I'm so happy to be. You've always got to look like you're like, I know that was coming. I'm in control. I expect that to happen. You know, I'm ready for the next thing. And I think with all the things I've done, especially being in rooms with famous people, you know, we're doing this thing in Raffles Rumble the other day, me and Archie were hosting it, and like Jamie Lang was there, all these people like you've grown up watching, and literally like where that glass is, and like you've just got to act like it's nothing, you know what I mean? You've done this a thousand times before, this is your life. Whereas if you start to overthink it, you're going to underperform and you're just going to look shaky and not look up to the job. And I think that's whatever you do in life, you've got to like realize that you're fucking good at what you're doing, you've got the, you know, you've got the capabilities and skills to do it. Otherwise, you're just going to look out of your depth and shaking.

Even if you don't have those skills, you sort of fake it till you make it sort of thing. In terms of, you've worked with a lot of different people in your career and stuff like that. How would you find, and some of it maybe even just for a day with some of these high-profile guests and stuff like that, how would you find it sort of warming and adjusting to new people and new teams? Has there been any challenges, especially with people maybe who you don't see eye to eye with and stuff like that, working with them like in a productive manner.

Leaning off from like the bullshitting stuff, ultimately when I started working for Rugby Pass, it was the first proper podcast I'd done where they expected you to do running orders, where they expected you to have production meetings, where they expected you to have all this stuff. Suddenly I had to dial into a call with Dylan Hartley, who just retired as England captain, Jamie Roberts, Lion's legend, And like, they had no idea who the fuck I was. You know, I obviously knew who they were and I had to lead a meeting and I'd never had to lead a meeting before in this creative capability. I'd done it a lot in advertising when I used to work in that, but like, this is completely new and I didn't know what a running order really was, but I had to pretend I did. And like, that was quite a hard adaptation process. But once I got through that, I kind of managed to get my head around it and managed to work it out. But in general, working with people, it's, I mean, in this world currently, it's easy 'cause you have to get on with people. If you're working in podcasting, you have to be friendly to everyone you work with because even with the commercial guys, even with the sponsors, if they don't wanna come back for this season, I'm gonna get 'em for the next one. So I can't just go like, "Oh, fucking hell," you know what I mean? Like, "Please, will you?" Or whatever, you can't be too desperate. But also, you've gotta know that maybe their budget's up now, they're gonna come back to you. So you've gotta keep everyone on side the whole time. Always be polite when you're let down because they have, you know, loads of guys who I haven't worked with recently have now come back for 2023. Yeah, you know, the sort of if you keep them on side, it'll come back around again. But also I think like, you know, in any industry there's no point, especially when I was working advertising sales for the magazine. Don't get too hungry. If people say no, it's no. You can always come back to them, but always just keep them on side ultimately because these guys, you know, one, for example, big deal, well, medium-term deal, so medium-sized deal, they said no to in like March, and I was working on commission then, I really needed the money, I was like, "Fuckin' hell," and I was so desperate to get it, and I was like, "No, leave it." 2 months later they call me up and they're like, "We wanna spend big." And then suddenly you're like, "Fuck me, thank God I didn't shame myself and like show my hand." There's quite a lot of strategy behind these kind of things as well.

Freddie, you've been great today. Honestly, really good advice. And just sort of wrap things up, if someone was to only listen to one minute of the podcast, what would be the message you'd like to leave with people?

That's a good question. I would say that belief you have in your inner head, from the ages of, sort of like the age of 10 or 11, it doesn't feel like we've changed that much. You look at yourself in the mirror and you've changed dramatically physically, but I think we've always had, since about 9 or 10 years old, an understanding, a confidence that we know what we want to do, or we, you know, roughly believe in ourselves. I bet myself as much as a 10-year-old to commentate on cricket or do a podcast as I do now. That hasn't changed. Obviously I've got a whole host of experience, I've grown up, I've become a lot more wise, and like, I've mastered the art of it. Well, I'd like to think I have, or am mastering the art of it. In any of these industries you worked in, I think it's the belief you've got to maintain no matter how many failures you're thrown at. You've always got to believe, and don't be afraid to put yourself out there and ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask for favours because what may feel like an awkward interaction, what may feel like you're really putting yourself out there and maybe people are going to abuse you, never happens. People either say no politely or they give you these incredible opportunities. Believe in yourself, keep going, and also don't be afraid to fail because, you know, earlier we joked about the 20,000 jobs I'd had previous to this one, but ultimately every single one of those, whether they lasted a second or they lasted 3 years, have given me an understanding of how to then now run my own company and be able to be successful. And even if I wasn't being successful for a second in this, or a day, or a month, or a week, you know not to overreact and keep going and keep people on side. Be nice to people because ultimately they're the ones who give you the money, they're the ones who give you the jobs. When you run your own company, if you're nice enough to people and you're interesting enough to people, they're the ones who are always gonna come back to you. Whether it's in a day, a year, a decade, they're going to go, oh shit, we need something. I wonder what Freddie's doing. You know what I mean? Keep people on side. Don't be afraid to fail and don't be afraid to ask those what feel like awkward questions, but they could change your life.

Well, that's amazing advice and thank you very much. It's been—

Thanks for having me. —really enlightening.

And I mean, this is my first episode face to face and thoroughly enjoyed it. And who better to have on? So thanks very much.

Yeah, good luck with the pod.

Cheers, mate.