Gary Izunwa, Co-Founder @ Tangent

Hi everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. I'm Marlene, and today I have this very special guest on, Gary Izoa. He's a co-founder of Tangent. Nice to meet you, Gary.

Nice to meet you, Marlene. Thanks for having me.

Good. How are you?

Yeah, good, good. Excited to have this conversation. Lots going on in the world of Tangent and Style of Life, but good stuff. So yeah, not bad. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good.

Awesome.

Busy with uni, but surviving. Yeah, great. So maybe we can just start from the very beginning when you were a student back in university. What was your life like? What were you envisioning your career to be? What were your ambitions? Yeah, tell us about Sudehyo.

Sure, I'll go back a little bit further, even like from my actual upbringing, to like give context to like everything else, I think. So I grew up like low-income, single-parent family, like all the less privileges that give like flavor and character. At least that's what I say. Um, but since background upbringing, one of 5 kids as well, you know, the single-parent household, lots of like challenges. But since I've gone for quite a hard journey, so I did well in school, I did well in my A-levels, um, got into my first choice university. The scholarship was University of Leicester. And, you know, coming from a low-income background, for me, like, the, the best route to kind of change in my life was always like getting a really, really good job. So I was always like hyper-focused on careers. you know, getting the internships and all those things. And I was quite successful, I would say, with that. So I was a tough person at university that was in the societies, getting these extracurricular activities on my CV to demonstrate whatever skills that, you know, graduate recruiters wanted to see, your internship careers. Yeah, I was always hyper-focused on careers and building out like a good CV to help me get internships and so forth. So end of my second year, I did a summer internship in banking and Barclays in Canary Wharf. That was great. Like, I pretty much only did that internship because I knew quite a few of my other friends. Like, I didn't know what— prior to like second year uni, I thought banking referred to like the high street bank, right? I didn't know this world of like high finance and investment banking and Canary Wharf. And when I got into uni and one of my best friends went to LSE, and like, if you've been to LSE, like, you're indoctrinated around like banking and spring weeks and stuff. So he was telling you like all these things and how much money you can earn per week on a summer internship. I was like, okay, sign me up, I'll apply and I'll like do my best and I'll try and get one. And I was fortunate enough to get one at Barclays, did that for 9 weeks and realized that like I did not want to go into finance or banking. And the money was great, but like I just, it's just not me. And then so going back into my third year of university, I was looking for companies that were more mission-aligned. So I've definitely been quite a mission-aligned person from quite an early age, and LinkedIn stood out to me for that. So their vision is to create economic opportunity for every member of the global workforce, and coming from a less privileged background, a lower socioeconomic background, that really aligned to me. So I was hyper-focused on working at LinkedIn and generally working in tech because I just felt like tech cultures and benefits and stuff were better. I wanted to work in those industries, but LinkedIn specifically. And yeah, for a lot of hustle and grinding, um, I managed to get a place on LinkedIn's Grad Job, and that was like the start of my career.

And obviously you've done really well for yourself, but you know, coming from like a lower socioeconomic background, what would you say were some of the challenges that you faced at uni? Like when you met like people that were more well off than you, had better connections, like how did you manage that? Like did you feel like you were more like, you know, the odd one out, or, um, Yeah, how did you manage to kind of build yourself up and have the courage also apply to jobs that are a bit out of, you know, maybe what you're given your environment to?

Yeah, it's a good question. So I remember meeting quite a few people at uni who were a lot more privileged and had like done internships and so forth in like school because their parents had worked at Goldman Sachs or Nomura or something like that. It's not like you just get handed these like, and kind of really coveted internships and insights to industries. And most people, like, have to work so hard to even try. So a lot of it was like frustration that this is like the way it is. Like, really, like, life really is about who you know and like not necessarily what you know. But for me, I've always been like so determined to improve my life. Like, it wasn't terrible. Like, we weren't destitute, we weren't homeless or anything like that. We just didn't have much. But I wanted to, I wanted to have more. So regardless of what I did or didn't have, I was always going to put in the work. One thing about me is I'm like, I'm really good with people and so I can charm my way with people. Like once I'm in front of someone, I can get them to buy into me and believe in me and want to like support me or give me opportunities. So I always knew that if I could just get past that online test or just get past that initial screening, I know eventually I'll like, someone will see something and take a bet on me. So I think a lot of it was like, despite the challenges, despite like the injustices, it was still like believing in myself that like, I know I could make it work. But also it's kind of like I didn't really have any other choice. It was like succeed or live the same life that I was at, and I just didn't want that for myself or for my family and so forth. So yeah, and we look at some of the differences to myself and others, like just access to people that work in these spaces, like knowledge of what's available. For example, I didn't even know what banking was until like I was like 18, 19, which meant that I didn't apply for Spring Weeks, if you know about them, because I didn't even know they existed. And so just even that is a difference, or a challenge where people know what's available and thus they can access those opportunities. People like myself just completely miss out on them because we didn't know they existed. So there's things like that around access to people, connections, knowledge of what's available that doesn't allow people from backgrounds like mine to be as mobile. That was quite frustrating, quite annoying. But I'm one of the lucky few, I would say that, does, you know, do well. Most people don't, and it's kind of like, well, I want to change.

Yeah, I feel that as well because I went to LSE actually, so that the classic like banking, you know. And for me, like, because I come from Austria and Germany, and then university is a lot more chill, like people take multiple gap years and don't really work until they're 25. And when I came to LSE, I was like, what? Like in first year, people are stressing like, yeah, for first year, front, right, center, like applying to spring spring weeks, and I was like, I don't know what I want to do.

But it's funny because LinkedIn's graduate program is based in Dublin, so I moved to Dublin for 3 and a half years, and that's where a lot of like Europeans live in Dublin, right? So I met a lot of Dutch people, German people, Spanish, Italian, and I started my grad job at 22, but everyone else was like so much older. Yeah, because there is this like 25 and 26 starting their first graduate, because like in Europe there is this like people study for longer, I think, and they take gap year. I mean, I took a gap year after uni as well, but I just felt that that rings true to my experience. I think in Europe, people take more time to figure out what they want, whereas I think in the UK and probably the US, it's like before you even got to uni, you should know what you want to do and you're on that track. Quite intense.

So when you were in uni, obviously you have that charming personality when you meet new people, but also you said you did a lot of extracurriculars. Like, what type of extracurriculars did you do that you think really made a difference to your profile for like the type of career path that you want?

Sure, it's a good question because I think I— look, I'm not a graduate recruiter, but I don't think it really matters what you do, you know. I think in some cases, if you're— so I was like the president of like my course society, yeah, for example, and like that, you know, isn't anything like particularly amazing, but it's more so the experiences that you accrue from being in that position relate as it relates to like teamwork and leadership, communication. So I think— so that was like one of the— that's probably the main one I did, to be honest. But it was more so like, how can I take that experience and actually accrue other experiences that can be leveraged in an interview to demonstrate I have certain skill set? I think it does. Like, so that was, that was mine, to be honest. I don't think it matters too much what you do as an extracurricular activity as much as what you experience through that and what skills it cultivates and sharpens, right? Because I think that's the whole purpose. I think it is a little bit different with sports. Team-based sports as well, like, because you really have to work with the team and be resilient and so forth. So I think in those cases it shows more, but I think in general, I think every student should be doing something extra outside of their, like, day-to-day, which is studying. Because, yeah, just like in your career, there's going to be so many things going on and you're going to be expected to, like, juggle multiple things. And I think demonstrating that you could do that alongside your studies is, like, an indication that you could do it at work. So Um, yeah, I was just the president of my course society, I say, of Business and Politics. And yeah, for me it was just more so getting that experience and then actually doing things within that experience, if that makes sense, to demonstrate that I had the communication skills, leadership skills, adaptability, and the rest.

Yeah, I get that, I get that. And did you do anything with entrepreneurship at uni, or like at what point did that kind of enter your life, like much later in your career?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I didn't actually do Like at uni I was definitely more career focused, like get a good grad job, get internships, build up my CV for that. Like I think I'm, I probably, I do feel like I've always like felt the entrepreneurial like buzz and fire, but it wasn't something I acted on until like, yeah, more recently now.

And what was the inspiration to kind of maybe think like, oh, I want to do something outside of my corporate career, like that isn't really related to LinkedIn. It does relate to social, but it's just something you really care about. But yeah.

So you're asking me what was it like to get into entrepreneurship, right?

Yeah, the inspiration, the idea, like.

Sure, sure. So, so yes, a load of questions, but there's a lot in there. So, you know, I started LinkedIn and that was an amazing experience. I was very successful at LinkedIn. I was there for 3 and a half years and made like a lot of money. I started on the graduate program then rotated into the sales team. And then by the time I was like 24, I was earning like into the six figures, which for me growing up, like low income and on free school meals was like crazy. You could earn this much money, right? So like, life was great. My early twenties was amazing. It was brilliant. But then towards the end of my 3.5 years at LinkedIn, I— because I was based in Dublin, I would come home back to London I lived in Bury, West London, like every like 8 weeks or so. And, you know, I'd go home, back when I'm living a really nice life in Dublin, I've got a nice apartment, I'm traveling, going to nice restaurants. I'd come back home and like my family's life hadn't changed, or the people that I went to school with, their lives hadn't changed. I don't know if the word is guilt, but there was definitely something there like, you know, I've gone on this journey, that feels nice, but I wanted to— I felt like I accrued so much knowledge and experience that I could actually share with others. That could help them go on a similar journey to me. And so that really kind of ignited, you know, as I was doing that journey over and again, going back to Dublin, back home, just seeing the disparity that I want to have more of an impactful career. Like, earning all this money is great for myself, but I can do more. And so that motivated me to, you know, quit my six-figure job, take an 80% salary reduction, which is hard when you grow up poor. And then I moved to the British Council where I was leading social mobility programs, effectively providing low-income university students and graduates with funded work opportunities abroad. That was really cool. But I quickly learned that, you know, I want to have big, fast, outpaced impact on the topic of also femininity. I know I can and I say it's possible. I see a world where that exists and like I want to shape it. And in hindsight, like that doesn't match like the public sector kind of way of working because it's like bureaucratic, fairly slow. I mean, I learned a lot and it was great, but it wasn't where I originally, originally as far as I thought I could have big global impact is in this space. But I quickly learned that that isn't the case. It's like just not gonna— not the scale that I want at the speed that I want. And so, and the kind of common sense of that, I realized quite quickly after, I want to have that big scalable outsized impact. The only kind of route to doing that is for like entrepreneurship, and actually even more specifically like tech entrepreneurship. And then when I realized that, that's what got me on the journey into, yeah, being in London.

So like, in your view, like the social ability dance gang was still like a bit, you know, from the— when the public, like, working on it for public initiatives, it was all very slow.

Yeah, yeah. It's like right now, you know, a bunch of the, the social media work is either from the public sector or charities, right? And that's great, and they do amazing work, but it's oftentimes not scalable and it's slow. And that's where I truly believe there is a remit for enterprise coming, you know, a bit of entrepreneurship, private sector to do. I think you can totally map, like, marry profit and purpose. And actually, I think you should in many cases. Having been inside that world in the public sector and seeing how it works and how many approvals you have to go through, who you have to get all this stuff, and who the budget actually— you know, like, if you really want to have big impact, there's always going to be a remit for public sector and charities, and they do amazing work, as I mentioned. But they come being out of space, it's just not— you can do so much more. And yeah, that was my experience, my observation. And yeah, that's kind of what motivated me to take the leap into founders. And so in many ways, like, I being a founder, entrepreneur is like my calling. I have no choice. I want to shape the world I believe should exist. I have to do this. It's very hard. I wouldn't do this otherwise. But yeah, it's what I must do.

And so can you explain how at Tangent you believe you can have a much larger impact or how do you sort of set set it up to scale like quite bigly.

Yeah. So I'll probably give a high-level overview of what TalentGen is and then, yeah, after the scale. So, but at a high level, TalentGen is an employee referral platform that makes referrals accessible to everyone and not just a privileged few with the best networks. So what does that mean? An employee referral, if you know or not, it's effectively where an internal employee recommends a prospective job candidate for a role. So let's say I work at LinkedIn, and there's a job at LinkedIn that you're interested in, I can take your information and directly pass it on to the recruitment team. That is what's known as an employee referral. And through that process, you're around 9 times more likely to get hired. Why? Because recruiters prioritize referrals. If someone in the business has vouched for someone, like, there must be something good about them. They must know that this person could be a good match for us. So they put their face on them, and recruiters always want to fill roles quickly because hiring managers are on their back saying, we need this for our field. And then the second reason why referrals are so successful is that oftentimes they come with a bonus. So if you— I refer you to LinkedIn and you get hired, LinkedIn actually pay me for finding you. So what that oftentimes means is that people who make referrals are incentivized to support you through the entire process, right? Refer you to get an interview, I'll help you there, and so forth. And that was amazing. And I quickly learned, you know, companies like LinkedIn and others, so it can be anywhere between like 35-65% of the company's recruitment. Like a majority of companies are making their hires or a lot, you know, a good portion of the hires from referrals, which, you know, which is great if you have professional connections, if you know people that work in these companies, you know, but if you come from a background like mine, you can have all the talent in the world, all the potential, all the drive, you just don't know the people. So you can never get referred and have actual career chances, right? And so being in that system, I was starting at LinkedIn, I have to like hustle, go onto LinkedIn, find someone who knew someone who worked at LinkedIn, get them to introduce me, and it was just kind of a long process and like just pretty hustling. I get into the company and you usually ask every other person, how did you get in there? But I got referred. I had no idea what a referral was before starting. I thought the only way you could really get a job was to apply on a job board. I was just like, how else do you get jobs? And this whole world of referrals and stuff, it grew out to me. I was just like, this is just like totally unfair and broken. There's so much amazing talent that aren't even getting noticed. That's not great for them. It's also bad for the company. And so I just thought we can like flip this model on its head. Like, how can we broaden access to everyone and not just the people that have those best and privileged networks. And so what Tamda does is we connect job seekers specifically from low-assistance backgrounds to employees within tech companies who can get to meet them, and if they're a match for their role, refer them in. And so how it works is that, um, a job seeker signs up, and what they ultimately do is submit a video pitch. It's about a minute and a half to 2 minutes for a particular job. So we actually, as we started really early stage, right, we only recruit for one role, and it's called a business or sales development representative. So I've First, one of the first ones I linked to, it's an entry-level sales role. And what you effectively do is help your company find new clients. So what a job seeker will do is they submit that video pitch for that job, why they want to work in tech sales, why they want to be an SDR, why they're a good match for it, want to develop their career in this space. And then mentors or employees within tech companies can hear these and arrange calls with the ones they think are good and refer them in if they want. And so you think about that, it's all real, like, that's the premise of the platform. All real, like very scalable because you just need people to have access to the internet, which I'm sure not everyone does, but a lot of people do, and something to record which you could do in platform. And we can now connect you with like mentors anywhere. The beauty of an employer referrer is that I don't have to be based. You know, if you want to work in Austria, let's say you want to work in Vienna and I work at LinkedIn and there's a, there's a role in linked to in Vienna, for example, you can be based there and I can be based in London. I don't have to be based in Vienna to refer you in. You can be based in that country and I'm based here. If there's an open role and we connect on Tangent, I can still refer you for the open role in Vienna because referrals have no geographical limitation. I can refer anyone in any part of the world for anything, which means that it's so stable. Now we can acquire you as a job seeker based on whatever location, and Tangent acquires me as the mentor. I, as a mentor, can effectively provide value to every single job seeker who wants to work at Compe, wants to work in the location where my company has a location, has an office. So in that way, you know, we can scale really quickly. It's all from technology, it's all online. You don't have to be in the same location to each other. And so we can scale up the impact really, really big. And it's— and just to clarify, we have— or just to mention that we're starting specifically with the business and sales development role, one, for a few reasons. One is like, I think it's one of the best jobs like out there for social mobility. Like, you don't often— like, when I was working at LinkedIn, there were people that were, you know, SDRs or BDRs, as they're abbreviated to, that didn't have degrees, were career changers from hospitality or like the healthcare sector, and they were starting their first job. You didn't even have too much experience. I was fresh out of uni and I was starting this job at LinkedIn. I was like, the average salary, I think, was like £35,000, £40,000, you know. So you don't need a degree, you don't need too much experience, and the starting salary is great. If you— as you progress— I remember I was 24, 25 at the time, I was earning 6 figures. If you're good, the possibility for economic mobility is amazing.

Yeah.

You know, there's no other job that I know of that has so low barriers to entry but such great opportunity for economic mobility. And so that's like the perfect role for us to start with. But we also on this mission to like democratize the knowledge of this role because so many don't even know it exists. Like I'd say, so like the majority of people I worked with went to private schools, like it's just like they got in and their friends referred them and it's just like But most people, even though it's a great role, it can be made. And also people from no city or backgrounds have the natural ability, you know, that graft, that hustle, that resilience that would lean well to it. And so we specifically started that because it's a great role for economic mobility, but people just aren't aware of it. And we feel a real onus to spread that. So, you know, if anyone's listening to this and isn't sure what they want to do, like an entry-level tech sales role is brilliant. Transform your life. It's not— I think people have the whole like used car salesman perspective, right? Like that's not what it is. You're selling sophisticated, like, software. It's a real, like, consulting style. Um, yeah, that's why we started there, and that's where we believe it could be scalable. We can bring the impact.

Yeah, I think there's so much power in demystifying referrals, because if I think about, like, my own experience, I had, you know, mates at uni that were applying to, like, 70, 80 internships in one year. Yeah, because it's banking.

Sure.

Or— and so you have to just apply everywhere, and you're lucky if you get one.

One.

To like, oh, what privilege, you can pick. So, um, and I looked at that and I was like, you know, I'm like, I'm not doing this. And, and I just talked to my mom. I was like, she's like, oh, just contact some people on LinkedIn, like, or I can, you know, connect you with someone. Like, no problem. And, and I was like so amazed, like, this works. Yeah, it did. Like, I got like, I think I did, um, how many interviews? I did like 3, and 2 of them were like straight referrals. Person I knew and no, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, they were. And it was just like, oh yeah, you seem cool. Like, oh, you know, yeah, send me your CV, want to interview. Okay. You can have this role. That's it. And, but if I didn't have like parents who were like, oh, this is not how it works. Like just email someone or just message someone on LinkedIn, I wouldn't have done that. Like I might have also just gone that route of, it depends what industry you're in, but just like apply online.

Yeah.

And it doesn't go anywhere.

So yeah, it's just like, I mean, for better or for worse, throughout the years, who you know is way more important than what you know. It's just like, you know, when they say your network is your net worth, like, it's not just like throwaway, like, no, say this is fact. And I've seen it come from like not much to like, you know, doing whatever I am now, like getting into great companies, fundraising. Like, you know, we, we haven't announced it, we've closed our first round of funding with an amazing amount of us is like, we have like Lords, people in the House of Lords, like people that I just would like naturally like never know. But like, you know, some person commits and then they introduce you and then like it just— like in every sense of the word, it's what you know, it's who you know. Sorry, it's who you know. And it's so frustrating, like it really frustrates people. Like no one has like— you know, obviously who you know is oftentimes very heavily correlated like what you grew up in, like what your parents did and so forth. Like, using your example, like none of us, zero, none of us have any influence over what we're born into. Like, none of us. Our parents meet, they make love, and then they have us. And then the financial and social circumstances that they're in determines our life. But no one can say I deserve to be born poor, middle class, or upper class. But that moment impacts so much of our life. It's just so frustrating because it shouldn't be that way. You know, it shouldn't be that It's also like lottery of like life, like luck really, like, you know, who your parents are, what they do, that can determine if you're a winner or a loser in life, or if you have to work like hard because everyone knows, well, like, they're extremely hard to like have a fraction of the chance to be successful. Just shouldn't be that way. It's been this way for a long time and we're going to change it.

So I know you have your— you used to have your own podcast as well. It's a bit dormant at the moment.

Sure.

But I listened to some of the episodes and I think you touched on like a lot of the topics, right, that, you know, like from, for someone from a like low social background, like how they could, you know, potentially go up the rungs or climb the rungs.

That's what it was called.

So, you know, if you were a student now and you are from like a lower socio-economic background, what would you say is like some of the most important things to do while at uni, like outside of getting good grades, like especially when it comes to networking?

Yeah, okay, good question. I think one of the first things I would say is own your socio-economic background. I find particularly if you're someone who comes from a, you know, low socio-economic background, you get into LSE or Bristol or Oxbridge or, you know, one of the like Golden Triangle, any of those type of universities, right, you're probably oftentimes going to be around privileged people and you probably just want to fit in. You probably just want to like even just like, yeah, conceal, assimilate, you know, acquiesce to the dominant culture. I think you lose a lot of richness, um, about yourself. I definitely did that, definitely. Um, and it's exhausting to try to hide and conceal and maneuver around your background. Like, I would, you know, just, I would, yeah, first thing, get, own your accent, get comfortable with it. And actually, I find it's a real strength if you can talk about, you know, where you've come from, the challenge you have to face, etc., in an interview. That demonstrates resilience, you know, adapt to whatever other different skills that people want. If you can be vocal and open about where you come from, where you are now, like to go from, you know, if you come from a lower socio-economic background, like my friend did, for example, he got into LSE, that journey to that university is different than someone who went to Eton, for example, right? And I think if you don't own it, you can't talk about it, and then you're missing out on opportunities to like show how great you are. Because of the journey that you've actually gone through to get from wherever you are to this university, at King's, UCL, Imperial. So I think that's one thing I would, I would say is actually, because I'm very open about it now, I think it's quite difficult for some people if you're in a dominant, if your cultures are in a space you're in quite privileged, it's very difficult to like talk about the fact that you grew up on free school meals and that, but as I've done it in my, I'm in my later 20s now, I've realised that people actually really respect it and admire it, and so I think that's one thing I would say is like don't feel embarrassed or ashamed of it, like quite frankly, it has nothing to do with you, you're just born into it, and so you had nothing, you can't influence it, it's just the way it is. And so for me, that helps me just be like, it's just the way it is, it's fine, and it helps me be more comfortable with it. But just realizing that a lot of people actually respect and admire the journey you've come on, if you have come from a Yoruba, like, whatever university, I think you'd be missing out on the impact that can have to people if you don't talk about it. So first thing would just be like owning it, then you go back to like, then you can get to this like the fundamentals, like yeah, no, at least get a 2:1, it's just gonna be a lot easier. I think a lot of different companies are like dropping requirements or even saying 2:2s are okay, but you know, do the best you can, get a 2:1. Definitely be active on campus in some way, like whether it's, you know, yeah, being a part in a leadership role in a society, all these things, right? Like, but I think if you're in the know-how, you know they're important, and so then you do them. But if you don't know, you can just spend 3 years or 4 years studying, and that's gonna be the key thing to getting you a great job, but it's just not. So, you know, be active on campus, be in a leadership position on a committee or something like that. And it's less so about, you know, just doing it, having it on your CV, as it is actually accruing really interesting experiences that can demonstrate you have a certain, you know, certain skill sets, communication, adaptability, whatever, right? So yeah, I'd be like, own your socio background. You'd be surprised how many people will be like amazed by, you know, I have a friend, Sophie Pender, she's the founder of the 93% Club. And she's so open, yeah, she's so open about it and so people are like, oh, she posts on LinkedIn, she has like thousands of likes and engagement because people like respect the fact that she came from a less privileged background but now it's like a lawyer and the biggest firms, she's talking about it so that's I think a key part of it, be active on campus and of course it's like such throwaway advice, network, right? And it's like because it is important, I can't underscore like it is about who you know, not what you know, um, many, like 10 times over. And that could obviously be on campus, but I would definitely be like, you know, going on LinkedIn. I know that I don't have much time now as being a founder, but when I was at LinkedIn, if people messaged me and said, you know, a fairly personalized message, they're really interested in careers at LinkedIn XYZ, love to take 30 minutes, you know, I would be doing that, sending messages to people on LinkedIn that— because you can go on LinkedIn, you can search industry or company that you're interested in, and people will come up, right? I'll be doing that, maybe sending you 10 or 20 messages like that a week, just to like broaden my network. And you'd be surprised if you have a good impression, good first impression of someone, how invested people can be in you. Like, it's really interesting. And one of the best ways to get people to be invested in you is to showcase that you have an almost insatiable appetite to like learn. Ask, come with good questions, like be curious, like, because that demonstrates that, yeah, you're interested and you want to work. And when people see that, they'll want to connect you with somebody else. So when I say network, I think, yeah, you can network on campus and go to events and blah, blah, blah. But I would be thinking more about how can I get online? I can go on to LinkedIn and be networking specifically with people that are maybe just one or two steps above me. So I'm not going to go on LinkedIn and message like the directors of these companies, you know, even if they get back to me, they're there. But when they were my age, it was so long ago, things have changed. I'll be looking for the recent grads or the people that, you know, roll off their grad scheme or whatever space and trying to get them. To, to buy into because their advice and networks probably a bit more relevant to where I am. Um, so yeah, those would be some of the things I would suggest if you become— because you got to be— you, you have to be incredibly proactive. You have to be able to just like kind of make things work for you. Um, uh, and those are some of the ways that at least I did it, it's worked for me.

Yeah, so I think like the proactiveness and owning your story, like as you said, like actively saying like, okay, I came from that low economic background and now this is where I got, this is where I want to go, and sort of doing that. Do you think like the landscape of companies caring about social mobility has changed, like, from when you were at uni? Like, what is your perception? Like, obviously, you know, there's lots of like diversity here and there, but specifically like social mobility or like hiring from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, like, do you think companies like care or like track that? What sort of your experience?

Yeah, it's a really interesting question because I don't think companies I think companies have always cared. It's not a protected characteristic like gender or race or, you know, half sibum sexual orientation, lidim and so forth. So by law, we don't have to. So I think that's contributed to the lack of like real concerted work in this space. But I would say, you know, particularly like law firms, banks and so forth, they have had initiatives in this space. I do think it's come a long way from when I was— like a lot more is happening. But not nowhere near as much, or not as much visibly when you compare it to other identity characteristics like race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. But it's a really interesting one because even though it's not as focused on like, like concertedly, it is when people themselves talk about it, it gets— I find it still, it gets responses quite well to it. Response is quite good to it. And also I find that diversity topics like race and gender are usually quite divisive. We're seeing it now with, you know, like Elon Musk, you know, DEI must die, and a lot of people that are against it now, right? You know, positive discrimination is— but social ability and issues around socioeconomic background usually enjoy bipartisan support. Like both sides of the political spectrum can always understand that if you didn't grow up with much, that is going to affect you know, the experiences and the life chances that you have, you know, the American dream, the literal definition of it is that is around social ability, that people should be able to reach that. And so it's a really interesting quote. He doesn't enjoy as much attention as he should, definitely not aligned to the significance of it. I personally think when it comes to your career and education outcomes, your socioeconomic background is the most important factor, more than gender, more than race. I'm not— I don't talk about that, but being a Black person, I can say that I feel like being born poor bore a link on my career, my education, than being born Black was, you know. But perhaps, you know, perhaps I'd say in general, you know, like outside of that, in general life, probably being Black is more significant. But in those particular areas, being born poor is. But people seem to— there's not as much attention as I believe it deserves. And I know I'm only part of that change, But at the same time, it does get a more positive response when people do talk about it or when issues around it do come up. So it's an interesting one. I don't think— yeah, there's definitely more that needs to be done because I truly believe that is the most important characteristic of identity when it comes to how well you do in the education system and where you end up in terms of your career. But at the same time, yeah, people seem to still respond to it a lot more in general, I think, by both sides of the political spectrum and so forth. Seem to understand this is something that is more important, whereas it doesn't seem to be the case in many other respects. So I think there's a massive opportunity to raise this topic up on that agenda, and it needs to.

Great. And maybe as a last question, we can kind of say, where do you see Tangent going now? Like, also in relation to the things that we talked about, and like, what's the next steps? What do you aim for? Like, moonshot, big aim?

Yeah, like, we're going to create a world where the social context you're born into do not determine your career outcomes. And that starts from getting your getting your first job, progressing into it, and then finding new jobs as well. Because that entire talent management lifecycle is still heavily influenced on the people that you know, like connections and how they help you avail of opportunity does not end with just getting your first job and getting into a company. There's so much around opportunity within a company that is based on the connections you have within that company. Absolutely. Like, there's— the jobs get promoted and you might not even know they're available, but people in those certain spaces will know about it and get them. So Yeah, we see a massive opportunity to make sure that the social context you're born into and the connections you have don't limit your career outcomes across the entire talent management lifecycle, from recruitment to L&D to internal mobility. And we're just starting here. As I mentioned, we're just starting with SDR roles and BDR roles, business and sales representative, amazing role. Anyone who is even somewhat interested in what that job is should definitely check us out, jointangent.com. But we do have ambitions to go to other roles as well in other industries. So We're going to democratize this channel on the recruiting front for everyone, and we're going to support you throughout your career so you can maximize your potential through our tech.

Great. Well, thank you so much for being here. Of course. And yeah, thank you.

Thanks so much. Bye.