George Imafidon, Co-Founder & CEO @ Motivez

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by George. George, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thank you for having me.

So you are the founder of Motives. Uh, if you could just give us a quick overview of what it is you do and why you're building it.

Yeah, sure. So Motors was set up back in 2015 when I just started out at UCL, just like you. And it was really to solve the problem of many young people that we had grown up around that time didn't have much access to, you know, the opportunities that were out there, right? So I'd got a few different scholarships and I'd made my way out of Peckham to UCL, and now I'd seen so many different places I could go— finance, consulting, engineering, tech. Law. Not that I was interested in it per se, but I've seen all of these different industries and I've now been exposed to it, these insight days and work experiences. And I saw that my peers didn't have a similar access, right, or they didn't know how to navigate these environments. But different programs that I was on allowed me to understand it. But when it came to STEM, it was even more challenging. So I said, how about we create this essentially ecosystem that helps young people from as young as 14 to really get that interest in STEM, know that they belong in the industry regardless of their background, and actually thrive in it through giving them access to these experiences. So Motives was set up back then in 2015 to empower underserved young people to access STEM jobs and beyond, right, and become changemakers. That was the key thing. So we take a young person from you know, very young from school, introduce them to STEM through competitions, hackathons, all of that good stuff. And then we go on from there to taking them onto our exam season program, helping them actually get good grades, then our application season program, which, you know, you'll be on soon. And then actually supporting them get their first internship, first work experience, first job. And then following on from there, we want them to actually serve the community and become these trailblazers or changemakers that we need to ultimately keep this cycle going of more people going into industry, um, that are from non-traditional backgrounds.

And one thing we like to do on this podcast is try and make everyone feel heard in a career sense. And if someone listens to this and I think, you know, you've just always had it figured out, you've always been getting scholarships and, you know, getting— landing top internships and building this amazing company, but who, who is that, that young George, like, and why are you so motivated in your career?

Yeah, I would say it comes from— I call myself, you know, sometimes the kid from Peckham, right? So growing up in Peckham, people know it for a lot of different reasons now. Rooftop bar, according to Time Out magazine, is one of the top 10 places to live in the UK. When I was growing up in that environment, it was very different, right? But that built up a level of resilience by overcoming all of those barriers and getting to these different places that and my upbringing in general is very much about service, about hospitality, about supporting people around me. So as soon as I had access to this privilege, it's like, how am I using this privilege? Is it just about me, or is it about helping others around me to also be able to, to level up? And I knew that if I'd done that, they're going to hopefully get some opportunities, but I'm also going to have to continue to level up even faster to be able to keep doing that, right, and using my privilege in the right way. So I think we all have privileges, um, regardless of, you know, whether you start out from the bottom of the bottom or the top of the top. And I just wanted to use that. So it was just that motivation to make sure I'm always serving and supporting my community. And I think that comes from my faith. That's a big one. And yeah, that's just overflowing in everything that I do.

And so it manifests itself in London at UCL. I wonder what your time at university looked and felt like. What, what were you thinking about your career back then? Were you just trying to do everything and anything, or was there a real desire of why you wanted to go to UCL, what you wanted to become?

That's a great question. As you're speaking about UCL 2015, I remember buying my first motorbike at the time. So I was that student riding motorbike in from Peckham to UCL, parking up. Sometimes they'll throw my motorbike on the floor because it's just, you know, so many bikes being packed up in one in one spot. And after I finish a lecture, I would be going and doing pitches at different kind of, you know, universities. And my co-founder was at a different university. I would go to his uni, and, you know, we'll be doing student competitions, pitching for funding. We got our first office space then. So when most people were just doing lectures, for me, I was in a suit coming to lectures before I even knew of Insight Days and everything, really trying to build Motive. So in some ways, I sacrificed a lot of my first year, but that's probably because I had a lot of the enjoyment before. You know, growing up in somewhere like Peckham, you're overexposed. So all of the parties and everything that everyone was doing in first year, freshers, I had done that, you know, uh, years before. So first year was actually a moment for me to just double down and focus on what I thought we were building at the time, which I thought could be pretty huge. In years to come, I changed that approach. I always used to burn out and stuff like that, and then eventually, you know, I got a bit more harmony. But, uh, yeah, first year was definitely a lot of pitching, going to a lot of competitions, building out the team. That's where I would say we made the most progress. We launched our first product, and, uh, yeah, it was a very positive experience, I think, for myself and Louise at the time.

I think a lot of people go to university and, um, especially with entrepreneurship, you can get stuck in this process of ideating and iterating and validating before you actually go ahead and do anything and try and build like a movement or momentum around it. What was that sort of level of delusional optimism and youthful naivety coming into first year? Like, how did that manifest itself in actually building a company at uni?

Oh, I would say you need a bit of delusion. I remember when we first started out, Peck and Burger King, with a lot of like other people around as well. Moise had kind of brought them— my co-founder had brought them on— and everyone would thought, you know, we're going to sell to Google, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, everyone, you know, we're going to be making millions, be able to make all of this impact. It doesn't quite work like that, but that delusion, I wasn't too hung up on that. I was more hung up on the impact that we could make. I was chasing impact from the very beginning. And understood delayed gratification. So I think that delusion is good, but you also need to have that delayed gratification. I call it being patiently aggressive, whereby you're willing to wait for the fruits, because it took quite a long time before any revenue came, you know. It was a situation where we were doing it all voluntarily, you know, um, and trying to get to that point where we reached a critical mass of users on the app, for example, for anything to really happen. So I had a lot of that, I would say. And I also believe that's the importance of having a co-founder that also likes to take the risk. He's definitely more of a risk-taker than I am, you know, from that perspective. He is going to chase his dreams. So I in some way bought into his vision of what, you know, young people's futures could look like, you know, if they had a product like ours. And that was the real driving force for me. And I saw him and how he worked and his delusion. I I think I bought into that. So that co-founder relationship is actually very important because when he's up, I can kind of, you know, get a lot from him. And when, you know, I'm up, he can also do the same. So we were bouncing off each other, I would say, a lot, especially when we just started out, because we both had these visions and they weren't entirely the same, but we could come together and we had the humility to do whatever we thought was best for the people that we were serving.

And if we use that summer internship at Google, for example, as a case study, uh, what was the reason and you actually went for, for these summer internships in the first place? Was it to get another badge on your name, or was it to actually go into that company and really learn and see how it could develop you as a founder?

I would start off like this. When I went to UCL, the big thing for me— I had like 3 goals, I would say. So one of the first ones was to be around other smart people that were, you know, that were killing it, right? Because I knew if you're around those people, you're going to get the right projects, and if you've got the right projects, you're going to get the right paper. So I've always made my decisions in that way: people, projects, paper. And I knew also by going and being in London that it would be easier from a startup ecosystem to actually build Motives. I was part of so many different incubator programs, pre-accelerators. So I knew we would be able to kind of build from there. And ultimately, I knew that, you know, you could also save quite a lot of money from staying in London if I grew up, you know, growing up in London as well. So that was the first one. So everywhere I've gone, I've had clear goals. The same with the internships. With internships, it was to build my social capital again in terms of these are people that probably didn't go to the same school as me— that's a guarantee— didn't grow up in similar environment. So it was perfect to be exposed to what they do, what sports they do, how they live, and kind of how they think, so that I can understand their language, right? And then another thing was building my IQ in whatever industry it was. So in engineering, it's about building my engineering IQ. And, you know, someone like Google is about building my understanding of tech, how to build products, because we were building products at Motive. So that was very important to actually accelerate the development. Another thing as well is, of course, you leave somewhere like Google, finance is very important. You leave with like 10K in the summer, it's not, it's not too bad, right? And then you can use that to save and invest that in, in whatever way you please. So for me, a big thing was always about learning. That's the number one reason you should be doing any internship, in my view. And I would start off with like, Google was the top of the top, but my first internship was actually in year 13 at a place called William Blair. Phenomenal organization, one of the best internships I ever did. But have you heard of William Blair before? Exactly right. It's a mid-market investment bank from Chicago that not many people have heard about. And I had to choose between William Blair or UBS. Most people have heard of UBS. You've heard of UBS, right?

Yeah.

And I had to choose between the two, and I chose William Blair. If it was all about the badges I would have just gone for UBS, but that decision was actually because I knew where I would be learning the most. And I definitely did. I learned how to do a free statement model, finances, every different cash flow, private equity. I was, you know, meetings with BlackRock and doing everything that you could imagine, getting real exposure to asset management. Equity, sales, investment banking. I did a whole rotation, whereas if I did that at UBS and took the offer, I probably wouldn't have been able to do any of that. I'd have just been stuck in the risk desk, which is not an issue. It's just, you know, when a corporation is that size, they have to silo, you know, different people in order to just to get the work done. So for me, it's all about going somewhere where you're going to accelerate your learning. And every decision I made It was about that. So Google, and that decision was all about accelerating my learning. And every internship I did— when you're building a business, a company, and you're taking internships, actually perfect, because you can say, what do I want from this internship to build Motives, or whatever company you're building? So one time it was about finance knowledge, one time it was about tech knowledge, and one time it's about systems and engineering. So I think you should always be focused on learning from the internships because it's very short period as well.

You mentioned when you go to lectures, you kind of stand out being the person in the suit and, and being a little bit—

I'm a little motorsport jacket as well because I have to keep safe.

Uh, yeah, just generally, like, you probably— well, I'm curious, first of all, did you feel like you stood out? Do you feel like there were other people on the same wavelength with you? I mean, you mentioned you had this co-founder who kind of maybe pushed you to dream even bigger. Yeah, but the reason I want to I ask this question is because I imagine, you know, with Motives, you, you work with incredibly ambitious young people from loads of different age groups. And for how long you've been doing it, you might have seen this ambition fade away or not, like, manifest itself in the right way. Where do you think some people have maybe gone, gone wrong in actually allocating this ambition and desire to succeed?

I want to make sure I answer the right question because I think it's a great, it's a great question. When you say Where do you think it's gone wrong? What do you mean? Expand.

So I think like even for me, right, I kind of— I, I was always told if you get into UCL you'll be fine, like you'll work it out. And, and I'm studying history and I'm letting these years go by. I'm, you know, I'm doing what everyone else is doing, you know, going out on nights out and drinking. Yeah, yeah, you know, prioritizing dating or whatever it is at the time. And then suddenly it's like, oh, this person's got an internship, he's fine for his job, and everybody's flying past you, and it's like it's left you. You've missed the boat, or you've just not had the right priorities. But yeah, where do you think, you know, maybe it could go wrong at university? And, and really, like, you know, if you do have that back against the wall feeling, what can you then do?

That is such a great question. I would say my first year, as you kind of heard, it was like almost— I was tunnel vision. But that's been my skill of focus, always tunnel vision. So when everyone was, you know, going to, you know, Phineas, whatever things are, you know, around UCL, you know, there's Coco, there's this, there's everything that— I was just so zeroed in. No clue. I've, I've never been, like, I've just never been. And it wasn't an issue with going, it was just I was so focused on what I could build and what I was doing. And I was having fun. I was actually having fun. Even when I look at the team now, I was with them yesterday, we actually have so much fun doing what we're doing. We like being around one another. It's not just— it doesn't feel like work almost in some sense. It's a privilege to do it. So I would say being around people that aren't settling is key, you know. I remember going into uni, as you said, you know, people think you go into uni and it's all sorted. When I was in uni, I was initially— I came in thinking, I want to get a first class, I want to smash By the time you get into uni, you'll be happy with almost anything sometimes because people are just comfortable, they're just settling for anything. And you really need that support system that allows you to think bigger. So one of the practical things that I did that could be useful if your back's against the wall was I developed an accountability group. I'm not sure if you've got an accountability group, but that's something for me that was very useful, especially, you know, the later years of when I was wrapping up uni, I only learned, you know, later on. I wish I knew earlier, but I basically surrounded myself with people that wanted the exact same thing regardless of whatever courses they were doing. One was studying medicine, one was studying, you know, econ, and then another, you know, was studying sports science. So completely different subjects from me doing engineering, but we all wanted a first class. We all wanted to do well. Even if they didn't want a first class, we all wanted to push beyond, you know, the boundaries that were kind of right in front of us. And as a result of that, we would speak on Monday, Thursday, and Sunday at 9 PM each and every single one of those days, go through our accountability tracker and see where we are, where we were with the goals that we had set, right? So for each week, we have one key goal that we want to hit, whether it be in education, like at uni, whether it be like an internship application, whatever it was. And then that meant that no longer am I thinking about what people are doing around me. I've internalized all of that and thought, okay, cool, what can I learn from them? And then I started saying, okay, cool, let me create my application tracker, and I'm gonna do one application a week or one application every two weeks. But, and then it's on my tracker, so now I can just focus on delivering as opposed to all the noise out there. So when you don't have systems, you get consumed by the noise because it's like they, you know, they've got everything. But once you know, okay, cool, from the system I'm gonna do 100 applications, at least 10% of them, 5% should go. And if I do, I always did my best applications last, so I would get the feedback from the first ones, learn from them, implement them until the end. I remember my spring week, for example, at JP Morgan, I got rejected by everyone else Every other company rejected me, just not JP Morgan. I left them until the end, right? And then the reason why they didn't actually give me a grad offer was they said I was too entrepreneurial. I'll take it, you know what I mean? Um, but it probably wasn't a place that I could not be focused on many other things, you know? So it's probably a fair assessment. Um, but yeah, I would say having systems allows you to navigate the chaos and still feel like you've got your own voice and not be consumed by everything else on LinkedIn or socials. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. Uh, just, I want to play devil's advocate a little bit here. Um, I feel like it gets glamorized applying for loads and loads of things nowadays because that in itself is like very manic depressive.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I think it can really just degrade you in a career sense, and I think you know, obviously you were doing that alongside something very fulfilling that felt like progress, right? And I feel like that maybe is where a lot of students go wrong in this process, is not really trying to work out their value-add, like really know what they could offer to a company, right?

Exactly that.

So at uni, like at this young age where empowering yourself and getting opportunities is quite a difficult thing, how can you like just naturally upskill yourself?

Great question. Again, one of the things that I said is focus on the learning. Yes, true, but what you really need to do is focus on the skills because it's like, yeah, you can learn as much as you like, but if you don't have the skills, it's like knowledge, you can just go to ChatGPT now, you get— I mean, but having the skills actually means that, okay, when someone says, can you design a logo for me, you could do it, you know. Can you design a few screens on Figma, you can do it, you know. When someone says, okay, cool, can we run this program for 60 kids and we can do it. So it's really making sure that once you finish the experience, you can do this list of things that you couldn't do before. You've got those skills and it's very clear. And every single time I was focused from the internship, so anything that I was building to do it. So I always speak about leverage, and the best way to kind of upskill yourself or, or build leverage is actually I started off volunteering, just volunteering. I started off as a tutor, for example, like very, you know, A-level stage. That's building my people skills, communication skills. I'm learning how to communicate with people that are doing SATs, GCSEs. It's vital because first of all, now all I do is work with kids and young people, thousands of them. So it's super important for me to understand the language and what they're actually saying. You know. So I started off there. I'd say volunteering is a big one. You can volunteer for almost any company out there. I know this whole unpaid internships, that is completely valid, but when you don't have no experience, there's nothing going on, you should be serving, right? You should be an apprentice of someone. Always be an apprentice of someone. Learn something because there's systems and everything that you don't know. Why just wait for an opportunity and someone to pay you for probably doing something that you didn't— you don't even have the skill for anyway. It's like, try and find a way to build that skill. And I did so many things for free. I spoke for free before charging £5,000, £10,000 to speak, you know. I spoke for free tons of times, and I still do until today for anything that, you know, I actually care about or I kind of want to kind of offer my time. But it's my choice, it's not their choice. So I did a lot of things for free to begin with. As I said, Motoz wasn't making anything to begin with. But building something is that on your CV they say show and not tell. If I've built Motives, I don't need to tell you too much about me being enterprising or self-starter. What it shows— so I would say get involved in something where people are creating, because I think that will accelerate your skills, especially if it's a small team. So it's either that— I'm not someone that creates things from scratch, I join people, right? So I joined Moise, for example. And that was the best decision that I ever made. And then it kind of grew and it became my best and highest use with all the communication skills I had and the sales experience that I had to lead Motives to kind of where it is now. But it was everything that I was doing beforehand that actually helped me get to this stage. And then when an employer is choosing between myself and another candidate, if they have someone that has built something or building things and someone that hasn't I think it's pretty obvious who I would choose, especially if that person looks like they're committed to actually coming to this firm and adding that value. So show your work, essentially. And the best way to show your work is by doing stuff and getting involved in projects, not just uni projects. Definitely have to do stuff outside if you want to stand out.

You've already said you're, you're a focus guy, uh, you're tunnel visioned. How do you, how do you, whether that's in a career sense or a business sense, uh, recognize when you're product— productively rabbit-holing and being curious versus getting sidetracked from, from what matters?

That's a really good question. There's a book called The One Thing by Gary Keller, great book, and that's one of the books that we use. It should be, it should be, uh, one. Yeah, it's coming. Okay, I'll get you one.

I'll send it.

Yeah, but yeah, one of the great books that I used when I always used to burn out, and I was always focusing on so many different things, and I, you know, found it hard to prioritize. And as soon as I read that book, it became very easy for me because I started to see things in terms of sequencing. So what is the domino that I can essentially drop now that makes everything else easier or unnecessary? That means you have to become very strategic, right? And in terms of knowing that laundry list of things that you could do, but what are you going to do now? And usually in the one thing, it teaches you in your first few hours of the day, you know, when you're actually working after exercise and all of that good stuff. So 8 to 12, for example, if you can— it could be 2 hours, it could be whatever it is— but use that time to do your one thing. Right? And that's the deep work. That's the stuff that is really going to move the needle. And you are pretty sure— that's usually the one thing, the thing that's going to move the needle. Sometimes just one email to one person, right? And you know that's going to kind of move things across. But usually it's a skill set, um, because once you're building that skill set, it's compounding, compounding, compounding until they can't really ignore you. But for me, it's really about understanding sequencing. Everything is about sequencing. You can want to apply to 100 jobs, but as I said, I always did that best job that I wanted last. It was all about sequencing, learning in the beginning, and, you know, going for the real kind of juggernaut at the end when I knew I had the skills and experience.

So yeah, and I feel like, yeah, you mentioned, okay, you've had burnout, you know, like all these things, um, that can stem from wanting success so badly. Uh, and, and I think, you know, someone might be listening to this podcast, and even though you've been very relatable and given great advice, they might still seem like this, this doesn't seem attainable to them, right? Yeah. What would you say to them in terms of giving them insight into the struggles and, and actually like the overcoming of the challenges to make success seem a little bit more attainable?

I would say, first of all, things aren't linear in the sense that you get into— me getting my first internship in year 13, having that on my CV in my first year puts me head and shoulders above most people straight away, right? So it's it makes me so much more likely to get an internship. So every single thing you do is giving you more leverage. The earlier you do it, it's giving you more leverage for that next step. And it really is this hockey stick, right? But it's very difficult in that first initial period because it's like nothing is working. And I still feel like that now, you know, in some instances where we can apply for things and, you know, our win rate, you know, when we started off might have been 1 in 8. Now all we could really get it down to is like 1 in 4, you know, 1 in 3. So we've made progress, but that still means that for every 1 win, I'm getting rejected, you know, 2, 3 times.

It's all relative, isn't it?

It's all relative, right? So there— I'm still getting way more rejections than I am getting any success. And I document the journey, I try and show all different parts for the most part, but I'm there to give hope, I'm there to encourage. So you're not going to see me splitting my blood all over, you know, but I tell people I'm getting rejected every single time, and I see it as you're going to fail your way to success, right? That is a part of the process, and I don't shy away from it. So for me, it's really about, you know, I use the 24-hour rule. So whenever we get a big win, 24 hours to celebrate, enjoy it, you know, do whatever you need to do, you know, go out, you know, order your delivery, your Uber Eats, whatever it is. Like, make sure you take in that moment. And the same thing if we get a loss, Ideally less than 24 hours, but use the 24 hours. So do all of that, but as soon as we're done, the next day we're gonna go and identify some opportunities, some, you know, jobs, whatever, to go for. Like, we're not going to sit in this state. And I think too many people, the reason why they don't get to that success is because they sit in that place for too long, and then opportunities are just gone. You've missed deadlines, you've missed that, you missed— we— that's why the accountability is key, because if you have other people that are checking in on you and making sure that you don't stay place for too long, it means that you can continue to make progress. So I'm really using people next to me to keep me going. I can't do it alone. And when people try and do it alone, it's a very lonely journey, first of all, and it doesn't feel as fulfilling. Um, but it does now because I'm, I'm doing it for people and I'm doing it with a lot of people as well. Does that, does that kind of—

yeah, it does. And I think, you know, you mentioned something at the end about, um, having people bought into your journey and your mission. I think that comes down to obviously having great intentions, but also ability to articulate that and storytell. Um, what significance has storytelling played in your career?

Storytelling, I would say, is everything in that— that's all people ever buy. People buy stories. We go and watch The Avengers or, you know, Marvel, whatever it— we're going to buy a story, you know. That's what we pay a ticket. We're paying for a story, whether you like it or not. And Anytime I've made a sale of £100 or tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of pounds, I'm selling stories, you know, of the impact that we're going to make, of the impact that we've already made, of, you know, when someone's signing up to a program, they want to know the stories of people that have made it. You know, they want to know that, oh, over 85% of the people that go through our programs get jobs within 6 months. They want to know that. They want to feel like they're going to be one of those people. And that's where I think stories are everything. And when you can't do too much storytelling, I would say that actually puts you at a massive disadvantage because the best product rarely wins. It's the best marketed product that wins. And it's a shame, um, that it's, it's like that, but that is human nature, right? It's about being on top of people's minds and yeah, sharing that journey and you buy people's stories and you want to win people's hearts and minds, and it's with stories, you know. That's why as a kid, you know, they read you the bedtime stories, and it kind of goes on from there, right? It makes everything easier.

So you also— a triangle of success is people, skills, and storytelling. Like, that's kind of— yeah, and, and they all are necessary to enhance each other, right?

Spot on, spot on. Because if you don't have the skills, they're going to be like, well, why am I coming to you for, for this. I'd much rather go to someone else. And if you don't tell the stories that you've got those skills, that you're doing this work, then they're not going to know that you have the skills anyway. So it's about them knowing through the storytelling about being equipped, because I'm not giving anyone a shortcut to success. Yeah, I don't think there is anyone, you know. It's about putting in the graft for the most part, but knowing that with enough consistency and, you know, serendipity, faith, all of these things, because I think we're all lucky, we all religions in some way, that things kind of, you know, fall into place, or they can do. But yeah, it takes, it takes people to do that. You know, Moat House is only where we are now because of the people that have helped it get to where it is. And so many people have— most opportunities I've had, I've actually not had to do a traditional job application, or even if I have, it's been a formality. It's been people that, you know, have opened doors and have seen, because of my skills that of course, you know, let's just get him in. Yeah, right. And then of course if I don't perform within the next room, I'll be out. But that's why you have to have the skills.

Yeah. And I think like for me, it's— I've noticed my own career, it's like in the beginning you're kind of storytelling and vying for that ability to prove or develop a skill, someone to allow you the opportunity. And then the more and more you can arm yourself with it, right, then you're, you're not just trying to create this feeling of, oh, I don't know what this guy could do for me, I want to be part of that journey, I want him in my team, I want to work with that guy. But then it's like just proving yourself time and time again. And, and I think really that's what, um, yeah, the future of careers will look like. And we were having a conversation before this podcast about, you know, on a more macro level, what, what the future of careers is. And I'm curious to hear your insight, having been you know, coming up to 10 years now of, uh, of working in this space. What do you think our generation's, like, careers will look like in the future?

So the big trends that I'm seeing at the moment when it comes to careers is this influencer-led approach, right? They know that we trust people more than we trust companies. Companies are just made up of people, so therefore, you know, maximize and leverage the people to share the stories of how great it is to work at a particular firm or in a particular industry. So we're seeing a lot more of, of that. We're seeing people, when it comes to careers as well, build more portfolio careers. So when I left, you know, about to leave university, I was like, I just want to spin something out. I just want to work on a product, work something. And that eventually was Motive. So I don't think I applied for a single grad job, you know. So when you said, oh, apply for something Didn't apply for a single one. It was just on faith and just going for it. And I realized at that time in 2020 that a lot of people needed help with jobs and their careers. So we're just going to devote all our energy to that, and we raised some funding to do that. I would say that's a big one in terms of portfolio careers. People are able to almost design that path themselves, create their own path. Uh, it's becoming a real thing. You don't have to take the traditional paths that were taken before. You can actually combine it. So I do you know, a few days a week in motorsport and a few days a week, you know, doing Motives. And, and that's how I kind of make an impact. I see myself as a humanitarian engineer, but both of them work hand in hand. If I want to get more people into the industry, I need to be in the industry ideally, but to understand it. But I also need to be doing the work with the young people so that they can actually see it, right, and believe it, and hopefully upskill them. So I believe you need these two things, and that's what portfolio careers are essentially allowing for people to essentially take a bit more control of it and get the balance and the harmony that they want. People are able to, you know, there's the high life of it as well that a lot of people kind of speak about, um, but for the most part, I think it's designing the life that you want, and we're able to see that a lot more now. So I would say the influencers and portfolio careers are big things. And the third thing is just how tech in some ways is influencing every single industry because tech is not an industry, it's a tool that impacts every industry.

Yeah, right.

And we're seeing how it's impacting everyone from the, you know, education, UCL, you know, doing essays with, uh, ChatGPT and all of that stuff. It's a real thing now, right? Because it's your thought partner. It's impacting everyone, uh, and, and we're seeing that now in almost every industry.

Yeah, I think it's also choosing the career information that you want to consume, right? Um, and it's why, yeah, we're called The Graduate Guide, but I'm a big believer in everyone kind of creating their own career guide. And, and I think with that, it's kind of frustrating, um, the quotes that you see on social media said by people that don't really mean it. They've chipped away at the wisdom that once existed in that quote, right? And I think for you, it's like this pursuit of of what you wanted to do and hearing things like, you know, um, uh, JP Morgan saying, oh, you're too entrepreneurial for this, that probably— that hits way more than someone just prescribing you, yeah, um, you know, you are entrepreneurial without the context, right? So exactly, when it comes to, you know, your own career and how you're looking to, you know, even though you've achieved so much, constantly improve, what are you actually— what kind of conversations and are you looking to manufacture so that it has that, that positive impact and that it still opens your mind up to this day in your career?

Yeah, I would say so. A big reason why I'm still in engineering is because of that skill piece, right? Like, I believe that that is the unique God-given gift that I've been given in terms of the problem solving, and I love working on problems and systems in, in that way. So I really want that to continue. I believe what we actually need is more examples within STEM that people can look and be like, you know, that's relatable, that's pretty cool. Because you look at someone like Elon Musk, you're like, I'm, I'm not too sure that is me. Like, they're really cool, but you see it as that's them and this is us. Like, most people don't really believe that they can be that, you know, person, that character. I believe we need to see more kind of relatable role models within STEM by actually creating these companies as well. So that's one of the big ambitions for me, I would say, actually building these— another kind of engineering or tech company. That's a big one for me that I want to do. I think that will help a lot of young people as well to hopefully, you know, come and work with us, you know, come and work with the company that we're building and create a culture where they feel like they belong. And if you can't just wait for people to create that, right, you have to find a way to create that yourself. So that's a big ambition that I want to see more of, you know, for myself and for people in our community as well. And I would say it's really just about creating as many trailblazers as possible within STEM for me, and the stories around that, because the more stories that we have, the more people think, I can do it too. And the reason why STEM for me is very important, because when you look at where wealth is created and where the impact is happening, that is one of the biggest driving forces— Industry 4.0. You know, it's all about technology, right? We've seen the reveal of, you know, this Tesla robot, a different— that's what is on people's minds at the moment, and that's what's going to be impacting us. So we should be at the table, right? And I always say, if we're not at the table, we're on the menu. So we need to find a way of actually influencing these decisions, and the more representative those spaces are, the more we're able to actually make a dent on them as a collective.

My final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is when you first started off at UCL, you know, this, you know, delusional optimism we spoke about, you would have a certain idea of what success might go on to look like in your career. Fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

I would flip that in some way and said it hasn't changed too much. And I would ask you a question. Okay, who's the richest person that died yesterday?

Is there meant to be an answer to that question?

Exactly. Nobody knows. Nobody knows, and nobody will ever know. But you remember the people that had the biggest impact on you, the people that had the biggest difference. You know, you wanna— I wanna think of myself as, how was I as a brother? How was I as a son to my mom? How was I as a, you know, a boyfriend, you know, I mean, to my partner? How was I, um, as a leader in the company that I am? So success for me now— but I would say even when I started UCL, and that's what helped me a lot— was a lot more intrinsic and about my character than it was about the external signals of success. All of those come, and those are important for the stories and everything like that. But at the core of it, it was all about impact. And I remember in 2014, just before I started UCL, or UCO, I had to write my obituary, right? And it was like what my life would, you know, mean to people around me. And that's why at that point I was like, it's really not just about how much is in my bank account at the end. Like, it's great to do all of that, you should. However, that is not the end and be all. I'm going to be more focused on the impact that I've made. Have I built these trailblazers in STEM that I spoke about? All of these things. Have I been the best example that I could have been? And have I built a character that means I don't end up in all of these scandals and all of these things going on? For me, that's the biggest thing, working on my character and being the best man that I can be. And hopefully, yeah, God kind of, you know, could be one of the big best soldiers that he's had. I think that's the ultimate ambition for me of what success looks like.

Love it. George, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me, man.