Hashim Syed, AI Growth @ Google

Hashim, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your career so far and what is you're doing now.

Great to be here. So I was born in London, grew up here, also lived in the Netherlands growing up, got roots to Pakistan. I studied PPE, politics, philosophy, economics, at university where I also became fascinated by the world of entrepreneurship, startup, at startups and launched a kind consultancy to help students get real-world employability skills. And since then, since graduating, I have been in the tech sector across— initially starting off at Facebook, or now Meta, then moving to Microsoft, and now most recently I'm at Google. And I've done a mix of roles across sales, strategy, and sort of venture capital startup partnership work.

Yeah, and what is your actual role for Google then, if you just explain that?

So I'm a regional product lead in our go-to-market team at Google. So effectively, I sit in between our sales teams and engineering teams. And this is how I kind of think of it. My own personal view is, for any of the F1 fans out there, I'm a big Mercedes fan. I like to think that go-to-market, the team I'm in, we're effectively like Toto. So we're trying to figure out how do we make our drivers, our sales teams, the likes of Lewis Hamilton, the best teams possible? How do we listen to our customers? How do we channel that back into what we build from the engineering standpoint? And then what does the end-to-end go-to-market vision look like across EMEA— that's the region I look at— for all of our products related to search, so Google Search, basically?

Yeah. Was this the kind of role that you always knew you were going to do, or has that developed over the years in your career?

So it's a very strategy-esque role, a very consultative, because you are working with customers, you're working with a lot of internal teams across sales, marketing, product, engineering, you know, business finance. You're constantly trying to— you're juggling a lot of stakeholders and putting together a lot of strategy plans and then delivering that to teams and to customers. Did I think I'd be doing this when I was a student? No. I initially wanted to be a lawyer. I initially wanted to be a lawyer. I did a non-vac scheme, realized it wasn't for me. Like I said, I built a consultancy. I loved it, but I didn't want to be a consultant. I did a sales internship at an investment bank, loved selling, but didn't really have an affinity towards fixed income bonds. Sorry for those that do. So no, but I think I just kind of played to my strengths and have gradually try to grow in the industry.

Yeah, and from what you're saying, it just seems that you've always been doing, you know, no matter what, whatever stage in your career, whether it's university, starting up your own thing, or just going from company to company, working out what you're good at. What, why do you think it's so important to have that attitude, and why did you, how did you know to do that at such a young age while at university, just to be doing things?

So I've always This— I think the 3 principles I've always tried to live by in terms of my career is hunger for something. And I realize I'm hungry to succeed, I'm hungry to maximize my potential, but I'm also hungry to bring people together. And that shaped a lot of my school journey as well in terms of how I played sport or how I brought together different communities. I also knew then the second thing I wanted to do was I enjoyed the world of business. I found it interesting. I did politics, philosophy, economics, but I found, you know, working with companies, startups, SMEs, large corporates, new businesses fascinating. And in particular then, what I also enjoyed was helping them grow. And you think of how do you help a company grow, there's different aspects, you know. You can through corporate law, finance, customer acquisition, or kind of the digital technology landscape. And that's where I really found an affinity towards. And when I was building my consultancy at university, the companies we were working with, you know, I was up in York, anything from a local charity to Virgin Trains East Coast, I was fascinated by what channels can I help this company grow? And I said, well, that's what I want to do. So I never chose the world of advertising, which I'm kind of in now. I just kind of landed it because I enjoyed helping companies grow. And then the third thing, which has always kind of helped define my career, I said, is you've got to have resilience. And I think especially when you're starting off a career, whether you're building your own company or you're working for a corporate, there's a lot thrown at you. And there will continue to be a lot thrown at you. Almost the higher up you go, or the more you try and do, the more you will get thrown at you because you work with more people, there's more risk factor. You have a larger coverage or footprint. And it's just having that resilience, say, times will get tough, but there's opportunity here for me. I should be a sponge, soak it up, listen, and then try and deliver my impact. So I've always said I want to be hungry to succeed and hungry to bring people together. And second, I've said that I like helping companies grow from, let's say, customer acquisition, or how do they grow their business, market expansion through a digital lens. And then third is resilience of it's going to get tough, but there's huge opportunity in that.

Yeah, I definitely agree on that resilience point, but actually doing that in practice is a whole different thing, right? And yeah, especially in the early days of university when you've got so much to worry about, be it social pressures, relationships, getting your actual degree done, what does that actually look like then, being resilient, and how can you sort of prevent burnout and just keep on doing?

So I think, I don't think I'm a great model for helping people prevent burnout.

I will admit I've burnt out almost at different, different spaces, even though, you know, on social it doesn't maybe look like it and so on. But I think I'm learning how to manage that better. But if I think of, you know, in the student landscape, when I was a student, I really enjoyed my degree. I was building this consultancy, I was playing sport, I was having a really good time with my friends. You know, and you're doing other stuff when you're on campus and things as well. But I— the whole job hunting thing was a real challenge, actually, even though it might not look like it if you look at somebody's CV or LinkedIn. I did a sales internship at JPMorgan doing fixed income sales. I loved it, very fortunate for the opportunity, but I decided it wasn't really what I wanted to do longer term. So in my third year, I was like, well, I've decided not to kind of go back to something. A lot of my friends were, which is great, which is fine. And I said, well, I've already knocked off consulting, already knocked off law, I'm doing PPE, I don't want to do a master's, what do I do? And I probably sent out maybe 46 reject— 46 applications in my final year and had, I don't know, vast majority of rejections. And it was rejection after rejection after rejection. And it really eats at you when you're a student because you're thinking, well, I have all the rights, I surely think I have all the right skills. I know I'm trying to be a team player, play team sport, I'm trying to be a leader, I'm building a startup, I'm doing a bunch of other stuff, I'm ingrained in local communities, I'm doing social impact. I, at that point, I'd done like a TEDx talk as well. So I was really confused. And I remember one example of dealing with failure, which was I went for a final interview with this company And it was the end of a 5-stage process. So online application, CV, verbal assessment, listening assessment, first onstage, you know, face-to-face interview assessment center. Then there was another kind of telephone round and consultation. And then finally you get to the 5th stage of you go to their site, spend 2, 3 days there, and you get to grips with the company. They ask you a whole range of questions in the assessment center. And I thought I killed it. I really thought, actually, do you know what? I've smashed this. And I even pushed back my winter holiday just to make it to this assessment centre. I was there having a great time with like the VP and the directors and all the people, and I was like, yeah, I feel good. I then go on holiday, you know, I'm like relaxing with my family, having a good time. I was at a wedding at that point as well, and then like I get a phone call and I'm like, oh, this is it, you know, I'm like, oh my, this is it, it's the moment you actually wait for throughout your time at university. I pick up the phone call and you hear the dreaded words of, "We're sorry to say you haven't got the job," and it broke me. It actually broke me. I think I locked myself into the toilet, into the bathroom, and I just sat there like, you know, you just want to sit by yourself looking into mirror thinking, "How has this happened to me when 3 months ago I felt on the top of the mountain coming into my third year, and now I feel like right back at the bottom?" And I remember I just felt the sense of shame. I don't want to talk to my friends, my family. I don't want to tell anybody that asked me What went wrong? And that's the first time in my life that I can reasonably remember where I felt really at a low point, and I said, I'm just done, you know. And then you learn to pick yourself up and things, and you go through that process. But that's when I kind of really was challenged by resilience, because I really wanted this job. I thought I smashed it, and I clearly didn't.

Yeah, that is fascinating, you know. You come into these podcasts with a preconception of who the person might be and what they might have been through. And with you, with all your success and big companies you've worked at, you wouldn't necessarily think that. I saw, I've seen on your LinkedIn that you were mentored at BCG, and you also do a load of mentoring now. And I was wondering, why was mentoring maybe so important for you getting through those harder times or rejection? And then why do you feel so inclined to give back to young students now?

One, why is mentoring so important to me? I genuinely feel incredibly grateful for all the opportunities I've had across my personal life, my professional life, the people I've met, the things that I've learned. A lot of that has come, you know, both directly from like, you know, growing up and things, but also professional mentoring. I am who I am, obviously through yourself, you develop your own like personal self-confidence and self-personality, but you are largely also factored and shaped by mentors around you. And there are people that took time or spent their time helping me for no reason other than, I don't know, maybe they saw something or we bonded or so on and so forth. And one of those people, um, it's when I was building the consultancy at university. I think there's a great lesson here that if you're a student really engage with people around you and the community and society you're in, because there's actually a lot you can do as a student to build your own personal brand, build professional connections, and actually just, you know, develop yourself really. And there was somebody when I was a student, he was a partner at a Big Four firm, also an alumni from my university, and I sent him a LinkedIn message asking him to come and speak at a conference that I was hosting. He immediately replied within, I think, maybe an hour, And then he said, I sent him this really long, well-crafted message of, dear sir, my name is this, I'm hosting this, I would love if you can come and talk about this, did my industry research, put it onto the email.

And he literally replied saying, yep, sounds good, set up a call with my secretary and let's catch up.

It was like, I'm going with this formal approach, he's coming in with this very informal approach. As a student, I was like, this is so funny. And I set up a call with him. Lo and behold, this is when I also learned the value of time management skills because I thought like a 1 o'clock call means you dial in at 1:01. So I actually dialed in at 1:01 and I was on the call for about 25 minutes and I realized, wait, did he forget or did he miss? And I asked him afterwards, I said, what happened? You know, I was on that call. He's like, yeah, I dialed in. He said, I dialed in at 1 o'clock, you didn't join, so I left.

So there's a reason that I'm telling you all this.

Then he said, okay, let's try this. Come to my office down in London. And I was in York at this time. And let's just chat face to face. So I went down to his office in London, you know, suited and booted, like felt really good about myself. I'm going to Canary Wharf. I was like, wow, this is insane. This is amazing. I get to his office and, you know, I've sat there like looking around thinking, wow, this is so cool.

You know, like these like senior people doing really cool, like big things.

And I finally like, I go into his office and the first thing he says to me is, 'What is wrong with your tie?

You know, undo your tie.' Like, it's a classic, you know, fat tie, like, you know, redo it. I'm looking at him like, 'Are you serious?' He says, 'Yes, redo your tie.' So there's me, I think I'm like 17, 18-year-old, redoing my tie in front of this Big Four partner.

But you know, that like, it just broke all the barriers that I had with him. And this is the first thing, first time I met him. And then over the series of like almost up until to this day, he still continues to mentor me both formally and informally. And Massy played a massive factor in my career, both in giving me energy, insight, you know, he helped, he introduced me to some of his fellow partners at the firm. I did work experience for him. I was really happy and lucky to do that as well. We collaborated on some other, you know, other ventures since then too, but He was so helpful to me in shaping my personal career, my professional career, because I got to see somebody who just really smashed it and I felt inspired. And then he shaped and influenced me both from skill development, talent management, introducing me to people. And I thought— and how I think as well sometimes is actually shaped by how he thinks. Like, he's a very clear-cut, sharp thinker and just says what he needs to say. And I felt very influenced by that. And I said, actually, I need to give back and do some more here on mentoring.

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Yeah, I think it's obviously very privileged to be rubbing shoulders with these kind of people at such a young age, but it doesn't happen by accident. And one of those big reasons it happened is because you started something at university. And I can relate to it a little bit doing this podcast, and obviously it's a very daunting prospect doing something off your own accord when you see everyone applying to these spring internships and spending their time on applications. What year were you in when you started, first of all, because I'm not sure, but also, like, you know, how did you say, okay, I want to start a consulting firm? What does that actually look like? What are you doing to start that?

The hardest part is to start. So there was, like, some early iteration of this organization that existed a few years prior to us, then it kind of, you know, died because some, you know, the people naturally move on in a 3-year cycle at university. So a few friends and I, we kind of recobbled it up at the start of our first year. I think you just have to kind of do the process. And it's something I learned even in my, in my role since then is a lot of times when you do work, if you really want to drive impact and drive innovative work, the best thing you can do is to actually just start. I think often you want to go and research get feedback, validate the idea, which is all important. But if you go, for example, if we take it into the real world and say if you're a startup, and I've been through this journey, and you want to go, let's say, raise investment, or you want to go get customers, you need something to show, whether it's a digital product, a physical product, or a service, right? And that involves you just starting and building an entity of some kind. So my key learning there is, if you have an idea, yes, discuss it, yes, share it, yes, get feedback, yes, do all those things, but make sure you are spending more of your time doing something. Because having something to show and then get validation and feedback on that, and as an iterative process, grows. In my current role, kind of at Google in this strategy team, it's very easy to get locked into design thinking. What's the problem statement? What are we trying to solve, etc.? And that is very important to do. At the same time, parallel, you need to be producing something, whether it's on the deck, on a doc, you know, capability plan, or, you know, client pitch, for example, so that you can get real-time feedback on what you're, what you're doing.

Yeah, and I just add on to that, that, you know, what is scary and paralyzing about just starting something is that almost anything you put out there becomes your reputation to some extent. But I guess doing something at such a young age, it's not set in stone, right? And when you're older, it becomes more nerve-wracking to do it because you've got this career behind you. So doing something as a student, I think, is definitely worthwhile and obviously paid off massively for you. And just sort of alluded to earlier, but branding and personal branding, I wonder what your thoughts are on it from when you first started at university, you started putting stuff out there and building this personal brand. And to be honest, it's quite a new term. I didn't really know exactly what it was. I mean, I could have guessed, but until quite recently, but it is really important, right? And I imagine you've, in your career, benefited a lot from being able to jump from Bitmeta to Microsoft to Google, whatever, because of the personal brand you've put out there. So how do you reflect on your journey with how you brand yourself in a career sense? And also, how do you keep that separate to your own personal life, who you want to be in a personal way and with your mates and everything?

So if you ask a lot of my friends, they would say Ash's personal brand is his professional brand at times. But I think with personal branding, It's useful to do because it also helps you figure out who you are and what you want. So if I dial it straight back to being a student, I was putting out posts on LinkedIn looking for clients and sharing our work that we were doing from the consultancy. When I joined Facebook, the personal branding there morphed into sharing our progress and program that we were running for UK venture capital firms and startups. At Microsoft, it was how can we at Microsoft help financial services companies transform digitally? At Google, it's what is the future of search and AI, and also how do you drive profitable growth of your business? And then through that, I've kind of also discovered what do I like talking about and what's important to me. And one key topic that's important to me is leadership. I think leadership is evolving. Yes, you know, you see leaders by titles, but leadership is also inherent. Leadership through influence or leadership through how you work with other people and things. And that just became a topic that I resonated with since I did a TEDx talk when I was still a student. And that's something I've tried to embody in my, you know, quote-unquote personal branding, but more because I find it useful to go away, listen to something, go attend a talk, work with a leader, who I would call a leader, kind of package those thoughts up and say, actually, I want to share a message. So I think personal branding is, you know, people can say you're promoting yourself, but in essence, if it's really authentic, you're sharing an idea worth spreading, and that people can latch onto and you can build connections and so on. So I found it really useful to build connections. But through personal branding, I've been able to do more mentorship, right, as, you know, one of your questions earlier, because if I can put out information that I've learned from other people, that then enables me to, you know, where I can help others who are on a similar journey or going through something similar.

Yeah, can you just explain what was actually— what that TEDx talk was about? And I'm curious to know, you know, you said all these things while you're at uni and you're a lot younger. Would you have changed anything you said in that? And what have you learned in that sort of realm of leadership since then?

So I did— so the TEDx talk I did was Unlocking Your Inner Leader, this idea that leadership doesn't come with titles, it comes through influence. It's about being emotional intelligence, it's leading by doing, and it's doing it with a smile. Most recently, I was in Cairo a few weeks ago for a Startups Without Borders summit, which is a huge which is a huge summit that happens every year for the MENA region, connecting startups, founders, investors, entrepreneurs, you know, everybody. Roughly, almost like, I think, 3,000 people attended this event. And there I got to deliver a keynote speech on building an exponential mindset in a borderless world. And it was really just my own stories of how I've kind of done this, both through my own upbringing, my growing up, my own personal experience and professional experiences. How did the story change? I actually found that when I talked about how to build an exponential mindset in a borderless world, the messages were similar, that you still need to be emotional intelligent. And I've learned through this, through both my corporate career and my personal journey, you still need to lead by doing. And if you have an idea, start it. And I shared a few examples there of, you know, if I had startup ideas, I'd just do it, just test it. Work with some friends, build something. If it worked, great. If it doesn't, leave it, move on, you learn. Where my corporate career of, if you want to go work somewhere, apply. And similarly, doing it with resilience and with a smile, both saying, sharing stories of co-founders, unfortunately, whether it be passing or startup ideas going wrong, or things in your corporate career that might not have gone right, et cetera, but it's a learning moment. So I found that for me, the messages were consistent. The stories had evolved naturally from my journey since then, but ultimately I think the message is largely the same.

Yeah, one thing I've gauged from listening to you so far is that, you know, a lot of your life prior to your career and your career has involved being in other countries and being immersed in different cultures. And sort of two parts to this question, but how do you feel, you know, growing up in the Netherlands and, you know, even going to university in York and having Pakistan heritage, how has that sort of influenced you in a career vein, who you want to be, who you want to represent? And when you do lead a team, actually making the most of all the different cultures. I mean, somewhere like Google has all these different kind of cultures. So how do you enhance that? And also, if your job does involve a lot of travel, what does that actually look like in practice? Is it as good as people make it out to be? Do you actually get to travel around the place? I mean, what is it like?

So I've always— so growing up, I used to hate moving. I used to, like, really annoy me because, you know, you build, you make friends and you're told to move, etc., etc. But since then, I've, I've really come to love it, actually. I think as I was in my later sort of teen years and going into university, and then since then, I, I love it because you are thrown into a new environment where you need to adapt, meet new people, and it's not rebranding yourself, it's actually championing yourself, because otherwise people can see right through you. And that's really helped me in my career, and I'm really lucky that I had that experience, because my role now as a regional product lead looking after Europe, Middle East, and Africa, I'm lucky that I get to work with people all over, you know, really extensive multicultural region, but then we also connect and talk to, you know, people in the States, people in Asia Pacific, and then you have people from all over the world. So it's not to say that it helps, you know, you fully understand where people are coming from, but you really enjoy it. I love working with people with different backgrounds, different stories, different ways of thinking, because it kind of makes the work harder but also more exciting at the same time, because you have a whole flesh of different ideas. And so I think in terms of traveling, I, you know, I never thought I'd move to Dublin straight out of university, and that's where I was when I was working for Meta, for Facebook. That was also fantastic because you had a lot of people from different places around the world in Ireland, in Dublin, and it became this pressure cooker of really cool ideas and different stories that you wouldn't even think about. You know, for example, I had a friend who started a business using bamboo, like toothbrushes, spoons, utensils. And he went traveling to Thailand and the Far East and came up with this idea I thought was insane. And he was originally from Germany. I just thought that whole connection was amazing. Traveling with work has changed pre-COVID and post-COVID. Pre-COVID, when I was at Facebook, I was coming to London quite regularly to meet clients, to meet teams. We were also going to the States a lot to meet our kind of global counterparts. I think COVID changed some of that dynamic with working from home, and since then it's slowly picking up. You know, lucky to have traveled now kind of around Europe, etc. So I think it comes with the territory. I like it as well, but it really varies on different kinds of jobs, etc. I think it's just being flexible and adaptable to the the travel opportunities that you have.

I'm interested, having heard you talk about sort of your perspective on your career so far, and even talking about understanding all the pressures that everyone has and the importance of time not really mattering, if you looked at your career as a student, because you have done a lot and you have been at very successful firms, To a lot of people, that would be like, meeting you would be intimidating. But it's funny because you had these thoughts as students, and now you are one of these people. What do you think about that?

I mean, look, I meet senior leaders both internally at Google, externally at events, could be clients as well. I still feel at times intimidated. Everyone has a sense of— imposter syndrome, I think, somewhere. I think what I've learned is that own it. Prepare yourself for these types of things, but then just go in and enjoy it. So I play field hockey a lot here in London. You can do all the training on your press, positioning, shape, tactics, tackling, shooting, passing, running. But when you're in the pitch in a competitive game, and there's a gazillion things going on around you, you need to just enjoy it and go with the flow. So I've also learned that when I go and meet senior people still, and if I met myself maybe like 5 years ago, just be yourself and own who you are, and try and channel what you can for that meeting, for that meeting and who you're talking to. I mean, obviously elevate your conversation in different forums, but also really bring out your energy. I mean, if you think about that very first example, my very— one of my very first most influential mentors that I met asked me to redo my tie in his office. I thought it was brilliant. I was like, why is somebody so senior and distinguished and successful as he is asking me to redo my tie in his office? But it was just him. He was just a cool, funny, normal person, right? So I've often tried where I can to find personal bridges with people who I consider senior leaders or anybody that I admire, just because it just breaks the ice. But at the end of the day, everyone is still a human. Everyone is still a person. And they're probably doing the same things that you and I are doing, but maybe in just different forums or so on. So I think always continue to look for ways in which you can just build personal relationships with people. So know your stuff professionally. but then really just find, just be yourself. I really think that holds true.

Yeah, and you said when you first graduated, you went to Dublin and you joined Metal, was it?

Yes.

And that whole process of making your first step in your career, is it important to get it right initially? Because, you know, not everyone can get it right and there's obviously like room to, to change and chop and change your career whenever you want, but how do you actually go about deciding? You said you explored so many different avenues while you were at university, and for example, myself, I want to go into the startup world and have that sort of relatively planned out, and my co-host, Nellif, who sadly isn't here today, he wants to go into a corporate career and join a big company, and others just want to go travel and just be done with university. Yeah, what's some advice on that initial step?

I think making the initial step, and you're almost planning it when you're a student, when you're still at university, and maybe even as early as your first year, second year, right? By the time you get to third year, you know, you might have worked it out, you might want to change, which is entirely fine. It's hard. I feel that everybody is navigating the ocean, swimming through the ocean somewhere. For me, I think at the start, you do think, did I make the right move? Did I make the right— should I have gone and pursued building my own startup full-time? Should I have taken an offer to be, I don't know, maybe a consultant? Why did I choose tech, et cetera, et cetera? Everyone has those thoughts. I think, though, what I learned was, in my gut, it felt really right. That I wanted to work at Facebook, I wanted to work with startups, I wanted to help these companies grow digitally. I was fascinated by the world of the internet. I was really interested in, you know, human interaction with social media and the space of digital advertising and technology and products and things. I said it just felt right. To be honest, it really was a gut feeling that I got after I did the interview. I said, this is the place for me. So I always say lead with that. I will caveat and also say that I think try and be prepared for what you're going into. So with a lot of corporate careers, there will be at times where you either need to work more, either by intensity, hours, it could be extra learning, it could be, you know, different events. And be prepared that at different careers, at different points, you will have to maybe give more. So I often say is how much you're prepared to give, because that's how much you'll get out. And I don't mean that necessarily just by monetary means, I mean that by real true learning. I can honestly say that the most intense points of my career where I've spent maybe more hours than normal in an office, meeting people, learning, behind the screen doing stuff, I've learned so much when I take a step back. I genuinely have learned so much. So that's the second thing. First thing is trusting your gut. I think secondly is how much you're prepared to give. I think third is it's never too late to change or pivot. Now there is some thinking, which might be valid, that you need to do certain things by certain points in your life. Based on like how your risk factor, but other circumstances, it could be like family and things. But ultimately, if you're truly passionate about what you're doing, you know, feel free to do it. There's a brand I used to work with when I was at Meta, and this lady was in her early 50s. She, she didn't have a, you know, kind of traditional corporate career before. She got interested in kind of collagen and products and started building a collagen brand at home. And a few years on, after, I think it was after her kind of 50th birthday, it became one of the UK's leading collagen brands. And she just became interested in that. I've also seen people pivot in and out through, you know, masters, MBAs, or, you know, do a startup, come back. It's entirely valid. You know, it's your career. You hold the pen. And you hold the pen for how you write your career. But actually, you also hold the pen for how you mark your career. That there's not an external board sitting somewhere saying, actually, you've had a great career, you haven't had a great career. So whatever you decide to do when you are thinking about your life, not just your career, I think really is go with your gut on what feels good for you and what do you actually enjoy doing. Second, know what you're prepared to give to get out. And third, you hold the pen for how you write it and how you mark it.

And you said, oh, people can pivot in and out of careers, but, you know, for you, you've been able to maintain a lot of side hustles while still doing your corporate career. Why do you think it's important to have these side hustles? Um, so for you, like, it might be you did an MBA course— it wasn't quite an MBA course, but it was an online course. So if you could explain a bit more about that, and then also just You said that while at university, the idea of building things and having startups, you're part of these big, massive companies that are the biggest ones in the world, Facebook, Google, and obviously they still need to grow and they need to continue to grow, but you want to be part of smaller projects. How do you stay involved in the startup space while being in a corporate career then?

So I like to think of it as just ideas. That I have, that's when I kind of test within reason of what I can actually and can't do alongside my kind of main corporate career, which is my focus, right? That's something I chose, that's something I really enjoy. But I've always had these other ideas of, I want to try this, I want to try that, and I see how much bandwidth, but what's actually kind of possible within the remits of what I can, I can't do. And for example, the MBA course you mentioned, so that came about, I was, I think, I think this was a few years ago now, where I had an idea for like a, you know, gut health business. And I met a really cool co-founder who was a medical doctor, one of the leading doctors in the UK, had a wealth of experience. And I just realized I needed to level up, you know, on my understanding of business, commercials, corporates, finance, marketing, the whole thing. And at that point, I wasn't really considering a formal MBA, but he told me he had done this kind of digital online MBA. And for me, I knew it wasn't a proper MBA, but I thought it looked like a good course. So I basically did that to just kind of get an understanding. But I also did it just because I wanted to meet more people in a similar field. And there was like a WhatsApp chat where I got to meet really cool people working at like Netflix, working at Amazon, working at like new cool startups. And you build your network as well from these things. So that was interesting to do that course. I still think if people are going to do an MBA, want to do that, I'd recommend doing the formal course. But these online digital versions are really helpful depending on what your needs are. I think as well, in terms of just, you know, staying close to startup space, one, it's become a network of people that I've met building cool ideas. And actually, you know, a startup doesn't necessarily even have to be the classic model of you know, AI tech product, you go raise millions of pounds. A startup can actually be a business that just makes revenue from day one, and it could be as simple as like printing service, selling pens, um, you know, agencies, for example. And I've just met people along the journey, and I've just tried to engage more people, and I've come in at different lenses where whether it's founder, operator, advisor, mentor, just trying to see where can I add help and where can I learn and then also contribute to this kind of startup economy, et cetera.

Yeah, and when you join these teams or if it's not one you're starting, how do you identify where it needs help then? Because I mean, I'm not saying everyone is going to be able to do what you do or might not even want to, but for those that do, how do you actually do that then?

I think it's knowing your skill set. So for example, with me, I realize I have a skill set and I enjoy kind of growth, right? I've always enjoyed growth, whether that's building partnerships for the company you're with, driving sales, digital acquisition of customers, branding, you know, technical enablement, kind of tech side of things. That's where I've kind of enjoyed, and you have to know what is my skill set. You call it kind of digital go-to-market effectively. What I'm not— I don't have a skill set in accounting, finance, legal, all entirely valid. It's not my skill set, both from my academic background or also what I've done. So when you rec— when you realize what is your skill, then next question is, how do you apply it? So for example, now I really enjoy connecting, so I meet a lot of different companies that I like meeting the founders, hearing about their ideas, and then if I can, just, you know, simple LinkedIn connecting with other people. And I'm not taking a fee, I'm not benefiting anything other than, you know, I just want to stay in touch with people and see where do they go and where do I go, and if there's a way to collaborate, great. If there's not, that's also fine. So, yeah, and I think that's really key as well. So, for example, There's a group called Skin in the Game, which is a health tech sports— think of it as like an advisory group. I met the founders of this, and I just had a background in fitness startups, health startups, et cetera. And I became really plugged in what they're doing. They were initially building a newsletter talking about the industry space. I said, I would love to help you and how you source content, build content, execute content, and then now kind of sit on as like a very informal mentor advisor to companies they meet. And it's just passion. Like, there's no reward. It is entirely just passion at this point because I don't feel like I need to take a reward, nor do I want to at this stage of my career. I just want to meet, greet, connect.

Yeah, you must feel like you're at a very exciting stage of your career where you've done a lot and you're getting closer and closer to working out what your skill set is. And obviously, to many, Google is like the pinnacle of what a career could be. But I would guess by having spoken to you for a little bit that you have ambitions that maybe go beyond working for someone and working for yourself. What does the future of your career look like right now? Because you have so many things you can tap into, and you've got so many directions you can go. Like you've said in the podcast, you don't need to rush any of that, and you should just do it when it feels right and when you feel passionate about doing it. But yeah, what does it look like?

What does the future of my career look like?

Big question.

I don't know. I think I always just want to do cool stuff, as big as that sounds. And for me, cool stuff doesn't have to be something at the cutting edge of AI. It's working with stimulating people, solving big problems, and knowing that I'm having an impact. So for me right now, I love what I'm doing at Google. We're looking at how do we help customers maximize profitable growth through kind of search advertising, our products basically. It's a big challenge to continue working on and solving. I'm really energized by the people I get to sit next to, work around, the things that I'm learning. And, you know, at the same token of the coin, when I'm maybe going for a walk or before I go to sleep at night, I sometimes think maybe I do want to be a full-time, I don't know, influencer on like careers or fitness, for example, or something else. Or maybe I want to, I don't know, launch an agency, or maybe I want to, you know, pick up that gut health startup or continue my iteration and ideas in Web3 and the metaverse. So you have lots of different ideas. I think key is knowing what you want in that time. And right now, I've said what I want is my career here at Google. And then see where the door leads you, or like what happens and what changes. Some changes will be in your control that you'd maybe decide it's the right time for you to pivot, do something else, move within the company. I think that's the other thing as well I've learned is in these, in these like large corporates, you have a lot of space to do different things and work on different teams. So often from the outside it's, you know, this person's been here for so long, but actually if you ask them and you look into the detail, they've kind of done a lot of different things within a company, picking up a lot of different skills, working a lot of different products, working on different markets, different countries, different people. So you're constantly being challenged. And even if you actually have been in the same team, what I've learned is it's only the same, like, for like 6 months, and then something changes— macro, internal. You're constantly being challenged and being forced to not reinvent yourself, but to adapt, because these are big, large, fast-moving companies that have responsibility to customers, shareholders. Users. So you constantly have to be adapting and evolving. And when you see that happening, you're like, wow, this is cool. So I think, like a lot of people, I'm still exploring what the future holds for me.

It must be something that you're getting fed at Google at lunchtime, whatever. Because I had Craig Fenton, managing director at Google— you said to me, your boss at one point. And he's a pilot, he's a YouTuber, like that, crazy, just to do all that stuff outside of it. And it's probably, if it's not actually what you get fed, it's a mindset, right? It's a mindset that you get instilled in by having like-minded people around you. And sort of on that, and it's a question we like to ask all our guests as we begin to round off the episode, And I'll be fascinated to hear it from, from you, you know, having achieved a lot of, um, well, what, what I would deem as success, you know, what your own definition of success is, right? And, and what it might have looked like when you were, you know, at York building this consulting brand. What did success look like then? And now, in the position you are in now, what does it look like?

I think for me, success is to be fulfilled, both in your personal life and your professional life. And I think on the professional side, it's doing things that you enjoy with people that you like working with and are learning from, and also being challenged by, and knowing that you're having an impact. And by impact, I mean change, that you are able, or you have the space, you can create the space and the runway for yourself and for the people around you to do something that changes how, you know, you do business or how you work with customers, work with partners, work with teams. I think that is cool. So for me, that is fulfillment, knowing that every day I get to do things, whether it's speaking at large events, working with our top customers, working with and partnering with incredible people at the company, you know, doing things like this that constantly energize and fuel me and say, yeah, I feel fulfilled. I think my problem is I constantly have an itch to do something more or something different and so on. So I want to preserve that, but also trying to tell myself and teach myself to be content in the moment. But I think that's the challenge.

Yeah, we've covered a lot of, you know, sort of inspiring— and it's been a very inspiring podcast and, you know, a lot of your successes. And I do like in these podcasts to ask about maybe some more difficult times you've been through. And, you know, on face value, it doesn't appear obvious when that may have been, but, you know, I'm sure everyone has them, right? Can you maybe delve into your hardest obstacle you had to overcome or maybe just something you're still dealing with now? You mentioned not feeling fulfilled completely. How does that affect your own mental health?

Yeah, so I think for me, I try and manage wellbeing through exercise and movement. I prioritise movement. For me, that's going to the gym, making time to do that, playing team sport like hockey, etc. I think that's really important. At some point in your day. So, I mean, one of the books that had a really big profound impact on me was Atomic Habits by James Clear. And I have this habit of moving every day, and that's exercising every single day. It doesn't have to be 100% intensity. You could reduce the intensity 60%, 80%, but just getting that in. And that's really important for me. How— and that helps me deal with failure because I get to kind of put in perspective, zone out a little bit of what's happening. I think that's really important for people to be able to have a space or a way, a mechanism which they can do that. And I think, like, failure for me is, you know, I didn't get into Google on my first try. I can't remember how many tries it took me. And I was loving what I was doing at Meta or Microsoft at that point, but I knew I always wanted to work here. But I was just resilient, and I had that hunger, and I knew I could do it. So I kept trying to iterate my CV, learn what's going on, moving around, looking for the right role. And then I found that. And then even when I did interviews, you know, you might get rejected, you try and recuperate from that. So, you know, that's one of the external failures. Even internally, the project that I'm leading, I get to work with a lot of cool people who get— and with EMEA, you have different countries, different dynamics, different customers. So you get a lot of challenging feedback, which is very hard to assimilate. It's like 100 people telling you different things, all aligned with the same goal. But how we do that, like how you build the car, is different. So you need to decide, what am I going to take in apart from different places to feed how we build this car? And at times, like, you know, you're overwhelmed. It's difficult. You're feeling like, I can't keep up, etc. But that's why having this space for yourself to channel well-being and mental health, and for me that's movement and exercise and team sport, is so vital so that you get the space to be able to do that and deal with overcoming. I don't call it failure, I call it falling. So falling, but then picking yourself back up.

Elwin, thank you so much for coming on today. Honestly, for me it's been Amazing to be able to talk to you, and I think what I've sort of taken from it the most is that, you know, you look at these people that you think are just so unattainable, their career, and you think they've achieved so much. But this is why I love doing this podcast. It humanizes these people. It puts an actual person to these CVs, and it makes it all seem that bit less scary, and I hope it does for anyone else listening. But one last piece of final advice that you would love to maybe tell yourself at York? You know, you're building this consulting firm, you've got all these like crazy ideas about what you want your career to be, an ambition. What would you say to you back then?

Well, what I say to myself if I was a student right now: hunger, gratitude, hustle.

Love it. Cheers, mate.

Cheers, Kamran.

Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

I really enjoyed it.