Hugo Campbell, Co-Founder @ Togather

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today, joined by Hugo. Hugo, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thanks very much for having me, great to be here.

Yeah, and, uh, so you are the co-founder of Togather, uh, and you've also had a very interesting career journey before that, you know, in journalism. It wasn't your traditional path into the events industry, but I think a good place to start is, for those that don't know, what is Together? What do you do?

Yeah, so Together is a marketplace for event suppliers. So people will use us when they're throwing, um, any sort of event, be it a corporate event, you know, summer party, Christmas party for a business, uh, or for a birthday, or they're getting married, anything major like that. They'll, uh, book their suppliers through us, so they can book, uh, caterers, venues, bars, photographers, and a number of other services through the platform. We work with about 3,000 of who we see as being the very best suppliers in the country, uh, put a lot of effort into curating those suppliers so that when people book through us, uh, you should be guaranteeing you're getting a really high-quality supplier or suppliers. Um, we've been doing it for about 7 years now, um, and, um, we've originally started on the food side of things, so we work with a number of street food suppliers and we've grown things out to now become a holistic events booking platform. We also work on live events, so we'll work very closely with a number of big music festivals, cultural events, and a number of other kind of areas where we will curate the food and drink lineup for festivals. And this summer we've done Pride in London, the Royal International Air Tattoo, a number of music festivals, and about 10 million people have sort of attended the events that we've provided the F&B to.

Amazing. And, uh, you know, before we get into what the journey has been like building Together, I want to go back to the beginning of your own career journey. So studying at the University of Warwick. Yes. And I wonder, at that point, what did you see your career looking to be back then? Because obviously your first step was into journalism, but what were you, what were you thinking about your career while you're at university?

So I think like a lot of people, and particularly a lot of people who do an English degree, which is what I did, you don't necessarily know what you want to go and do immediately post uni. And maybe it's something that I hadn't put enough thought to before going to uni and, you know, only really started thinking about probably in the, you know, maybe in the last 2 years of my degree was when I really started thinking about what it was that I was going to go on and do. I had always thought that journalism would be a really great area to go and work in, and I decided that that was where I was going to kind of concentrate efforts. But straight after uni, and I was lucky enough to go and get a role, um, in London working journalism for The Independent straight after uni. Um, and I worked there for just under, under 2 years. But I, I think that was a very— I was fortunate to get that role because it was what I decided to do in a relatively sort of competitive industry, and there was a lot of luck involved in getting that role. So I feel like that was, uh, that was quite fortunate. Um, but it was a fantastic first job. Really exciting. Um, you know, it was— I was working on a news desk. You're literally writing maybe 15 stories a day. You're getting completely— you've kind of forgotten everything by the end of the day. The days go in sort of feels like about 5 minutes. Uh, but yeah, it was really exciting and a great place to start a career for sure.

Yeah. And obviously you've, you've gone on to do something very entrepreneurial. When was it that you realized that you wanted to start something of your own? Was that a matter of, I've always wanted to build my own thing, or was it the problem was so glaringly obvious that you wanted to build with your co-founder that you had to go and build together?

Yeah, it's an interesting one because I would say I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for my co-founder. As in, I've never had a— growing up, I was never, you know, one of these people who are— lots of people who go on to found startups, who is, you know, you're desperate to fix a problem in the industry, you're very entrepreneurial, you're going to go and start your own company, and it's always been your path. I wasn't necessarily of that mindset. It wasn't something I'd particularly given too much thought to, but I was living with my co-founder who I've known for a very, very long time since we were, you know, 6, 7 sort of age in London. We were both working at our roles and we just, we've always kind of talked theoretically about what businesses we would start if we, you know, if we were to go and do that. And we got talking about the idea of Together. He was working in events at the time for a company called Festicket, which is more in the festival ticket marketing side of things. And we just spent a lot of our own time looking into that industry and realized that there wasn't a platform for it. Uh, so we spent a lot of, you know, our own time, our free time, like researching, speaking to suppliers, speaking to, uh, people in the events industry, uh, about how it worked, getting an idea of, um, all of the mechanics of it. And at that point, we, we got to a conviction that we thought there is definitely a niche here for this business. Um, an important thing for us, I would say, uh, was that we were at a point in our careers where I'd been working journalism for 2 years, he'd been working at a startup for a similar amount of time, a little bit longer. Um, but, um, but we felt that we were at a point where we could go and really give something a go. Um, and if it didn't work out, we we could potentially come at a stage in our careers where the risk wasn't necessarily huge. You could come back and get back into the industries that we were working in before. So it felt like a really good time to give things a proper go. Thankfully, it, you know, worked out. But, um, but yeah, yeah.

And there'll be some students listening that, you know, maybe are thinking about setting up something entrepreneurial while at university. And obviously you had those 2 years after, and it wasn't immediately obvious you'd be an entrepreneur, but Do you think what you're building now, like, you needed those 2 years after, or do you think like it was a matter of just buying yourself time for the right idea to come up?

So the, the second one is very true, I'd say. Um, I, I would say there are lots of people who go on an entrepreneurial journey because they want to go on an entrepreneurial journey rather than necessarily having an idea, getting the conviction, putting the research behind it, and knowing it's going to work. I think there are quite a lot of people about out there and I think, you know, just to scroll up and down LinkedIn can probably give you a good example of where, where and why that is. But, um, but who, uh, are founding a business because they really want, um, to found a business. And I think that what's, uh, my journey— not, not that, you know, I spent, uh, you know, 10, 15 years crafting the perfect business plan with my co-founder, but we did spend a lot of time really thinking about it. Um, and it was a tough decision for us to kind of move away from our careers to go and do that. Well, not tough decision, but one that we really had to think, um, about a lot. So yeah, I think it's an important thing to do is to really give thought to what you want to go and do, because if you're in an industry that you find out a couple of years down the line that you don't necessarily enjoy that much, you're gonna have a tough time for sure.

Yeah, there's a fine line there though, isn't there? Because I know when I was at university, it was like you constantly can ideate and validate and iterate and all these things before you actually go ahead and do anything and get any customer feedback, see if you can actually make any money for it, see if you're fit to be a founder. And I think, you know, the one thing that I actually ended up building as a company from university was the thing that I just started without thinking. And I'm not saying, you know, that's always the way to do it, but, you know, looking back on, on your career journey now, like, what do you think you— what is something you wish you knew when you were starting that journey that would have massively sped up the whole process.

Yeah, one thing I would have done— so thankfully my co-founder had worked at a startup for a few years, so he had a lot of the, you know, knowledge of, uh, not necessarily how to do it, but what PPC was, or how to run a marketing campaign, or, you know, um, how to, you know, advertise a business on Meta, like that kind of thing, which as a journalist for a couple of years I genuinely had no idea about. I hadn't done a business degree. So I would say, um, a very valuable area— a very valuable thing that you can do is go and work for potentially a startup for a few years, even if you're determined to go on an entrepreneurial journey yourself. You know, that's the path that you want to go down. Uh, for me, it would have been invaluable to have had a few years of that before I'd gone and started the company. That's not to say that if you, you have a great idea that you really believe, you shouldn't go and do it, but Uh, there are lots of times where I look back on our early years, and we're quite young in the early years, you know, uh, you know, 24. Um, and, uh, there were a lot of things that I know now that would have made things that took us 6 months would have taken 3 days or an hour, uh, compared to, to where we were back then. So I think, uh, getting some experience from people who've maybe been there and done it before is really, really important. Um, And I would say one area, uh, that, that people don't necessarily look into enough is like the amount of like energy it takes that to start businesses. And I think that like, um, uh, a lot of people, you know, obviously you go on LinkedIn, there's a lot of talk about, um, work-life balance. It's what everyone wants, obviously. I think everyone wants to have a really, um, positive work-life balance. But the truth is like you speak to nearly all of the startups that are really successful over their first few years, and the founders have always sort of really had to like grind themselves into the, into the, um, kind of ground to like, um, make that happen. And hard work really does go a long way. And that's like the unfortunate truth about a lot of these businesses, and that, that, um, you kind of have to be slightly ready for that to go and go and make that happen. That's not to say that you can't you know, have a nice time in life. But it does mean that you do always have to be on, uh, which I think is something that no one necessarily tells you about, something that I wasn't necessarily aware of before we went into this.

Yeah, and I think, you know, your, your background in journalism and your co-founder being working at a startup, it doesn't, you know, make the most obvious blend as two people to go build a business. And I wonder what it was you saw in each other that, that felt right to build a business together? You know, what was it he, he saw in you that, okay, there is something entrepreneurial in you that I can bring out? And then vice versa, what did you see in him? Like, I'm in safe hands here.

Yeah, I think I, I, if I could put it down to one thing, well, we've no— we've known each other for a really long time. Yeah. So we've known each other since we were 6 or 7, and our relationship is kind of almost more like a sibling relationship, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Um, and I think what I would say that I would trust him with is that when he says he'll go and do something, he'll, like, he will go and do it. And if he can't do it, he'll give it a good go and he'll say why it didn't work out kind of thing. And I think that's the same the other way around where it's like, you know, that you can leave something with someone and they'll go and properly get it done. And I think we kind of, in the early days in particular when it was really down to kind of the work that we were just doing, I think our roles um, you know, kind of diverged quite naturally. I was in charge of like working with the suppliers, bringing them all on board, setting up our early like sales processes, making sure that like the deals are going through. And he was more on the fundraising side and the tech side, and that fit quite nicely. Obviously, as like the business has grown, we have done everything ourselves like down the years, but now our roles have kind of diverged a bit more. Uh, but I— yeah, we complement each other quite nicely. And I think particularly in the early days, we both had like a lot of energy to go and make it work. And I think the fact that we both did was really important because we were sort of matching each other's energy and desire, for sure.

Yeah, and I think it's, uh, it's fair to say that what you have built has worked at this point, or, you know, at least at this point, you know, it really is working. And, and there would have been moments, especially, you know, thinking about COVID which would be— it would have been halfway through the journey where it would have seemed maybe so difficult to build at the time, that there needed to be a bigger motivation behind what you're doing than just purely like business success. So, you know, when those harder moments came, what was it that made you so dead set in what you were building that you kept on building through it?

Um, so COVID's an interesting one in particular because our industry did go from, uh, north— went from, uh, went to zero overnight. And for comparison, we were thinking we might do our first million-pound month as a company. I think it was March 2020. Instead, we did zero because there was literally nothing happening in the events industry. It got stopped immediately as soon as COVID happened. We've always, you know, we love events and we're very— we find it a very important thing that people should have choice and high-quality suppliers at their events. And for us specifically during COVID a motivation was the rise of virtual events, I would say. We could see during COVID there was this big boom, particularly supported by VCs. There are a couple of companies who achieved really big valuations and a lot of big rounds of funding, um, virtual events. And I think it's fair to say, and maybe I'm speaking wishfully now, but to anyone who wasn't a VC or desperate for the world to be involved in virtual events, it wasn't there to stay.

Yeah.

You know, maybe if COVID had lasted forever, maybe, sure. But it was very clear that people were desperate to get back to physical events. And I think it became very socializing, going out, going to festivals, going, you know, having big birthday parties, companies celebrating Christmas. Etc. It became more important than ever, so much more important. And it was seeing all this funding going towards virtual event companies, I would say, made us even more focused on like really nailing the, the in-person event side of things. Virtual events we just saw as being not interesting to us one bit. And so we were kind of determined to build or make the platform even better for people when physical events came back, which was, you know, a risk because the timing of it, you know, it was quite a long time obviously from COVID happening to the return of events, you know, just under 2 years basically. Uh, thankfully we had some great investors who supported us through that period, enabled us to keep building the platform. But I would say throughout that time, like, making sure it was in a good place so people could really celebrate when everything got back to normal, or at least close to normal, was a big motivating factor for us.

Let's say I'm a student president at university and I'm thinking, okay, I need to put on a killer event, but I've never done it. What do you think? Yeah, because you would have seen some amazing events and some ones that maybe didn't work as well. Makes a great event. What do you think people really want from an event? What do they want to feel?

Uh, well, it depends whether you used to gather or not. It's going to be good if you're doing that, if you don't, um, no, it's, um Uh, there are lots. Okay, so firstly, um, point number one, when people think event, they think stressful, right? You're like, oh my God, there's so much going on, there are so many moving parts to this, I don't really know where to start. And it can immediately become quite overwhelming to people. Uh, the truth is, is that that is sort of what the event industry sort of thrives on, is, you know, you have people who come in, intermediates who will, um who will charge a lot of money to make that whole process simpler. What we're trying to say is that you can do it yourself in quite a, quite an easy way. You can book all the suppliers you need in one place. But I would say I'm a little bit biased in this, of course, but I would say that great suppliers are the difference between mediocre and brilliant events. If we're taking like a student ball example, I know that we've done a number of, you know, student balls, for example, and I went along to a few in our first few years, and I've been to some myself, and the ones with crap food and crap drinks, you know, it's fine. People still have a good time, but it takes away from the mystique of the evening a bit. It doesn't make it feel so special. But when people have really put thought into it, and it doesn't necessarily have to mean, you know, increasing the budget, when people have clearly put like thought into amazing food options, amazing cool drink options, maybe from a nice looking setup, it can take that event from people's, uh, from being fun to maybe like quite epic in people's minds.

Yeah.

Um, and I think it has a genuinely huge difference. Um, and I think what people are understanding is that that doesn't necessarily mean budget, it just means putting thought into it, really thinking like what's going to wow the guests at this event. And rather than, let's say, just getting like a mobile bar to roll up, could we get, uh, you know, like an absolutely stunning bar with like a kind of like— that's got like an amazing setup? Maybe it looks really cool. We've thought a bit about the theme of the event. Okay, cool. The theme of the ball is the future, whatever, you know, it's like a star. And, uh, it's— I only say this because we've done— I remember we did like a Blade Runner ball once, which is really, really cool, but they like worked with the bar get to curate all the cocktails so that they were like, um, whatever they were, like the drinks from Blade Runner. Made it really, really fun. And it just, it just like elevates the event, that sort of 10% that is so, so, so important. And it's the same when people, uh, uh, you know, we, we work with festivals a lot and we work with weddings a lot. And if you're looking at from a festival perspective, there's almost like a cliché that the food there is a bit crap, right? And you go along, you have like, you overpay for a low-quality burger burger or whatever it might be, and it takes the shine off the day a bit. And actually, people want a really special day when they go to a festival, and if that food is gonna— is really high quality, it can take the event to the next level. You know, with a wedding, again, the catering can be seen as like quite a— and I'm talking about catering here in particular, but it's just one area that we work on. But, um, you know, it's almost like the hog roast, or— and there's nothing wrong with that, but it can be seen as like the conservative option is what people often go for, whereas now people, when people embrace, you know, something a bit more exciting, a bit more memorable, it can really make, get people talking and make the event even more exciting.

Yeah, and I think what you solved there is the, the paralysis of thought. Like, you know, if you're saying, yeah, oh, I really want to put something on, but I just can't even think where, where to start, where to even look for it. I think that's probably where you were like, okay, this problem needs solving. As somebody that puts on events myself, I think it's there are so many other things you need to think about in events. Events is far more like complex than, you know, people, you know, can sometimes paint it out to be. That the least you can do is have as little worries when it comes to, you know, is the basics of the food, the drink, you know, your, your core of the event, is that delivering? And then you can actually focus on the entertainment and, you know, yourself as a host and all these kind of things. So I've definitely, you know, benefited from, from how removing that process of thought can really elevate an event.

And, and one thing I would add as well is that, um, when it comes to stress around an event, there's no better move you can make than working with suppliers who you trust. So, you know, when we're bringing on suppliers, we try and make sure that, you know, we, we have an idea of how seriously they take their business, how they work with, you know, the, the clients that they work with to make that process much easier. Ultimately, you know, let's say go back to student ball example. If you're confident that your caterer, that your photographer is going to turn up on time and know what they're doing and not necessarily need to have hours of, um, you know, uh, prep time or like going to need direction at all times, you're going to have a better time.

Yeah, 100%. And, and I think, you know, while we're on the topic of events, we might as well look at you know, how people can actually integrate it into their own career paths, right? Because I think it, as you said, it is— it does feel more important than ever. I think everybody's— yeah, they are sort of sick and tired of— I think events got lazy before lockdown, you know what I mean? They kind of became like, you know, just your standard thing, whereas now everyone's kind of— they're so aware that they're craving that in-person relationship, whether that's for networking, whether that's for having fun with your mates, reconnecting, whatever it is. And And I think there is, you know, sort of hesitance when it comes to, oh, you're going to be another person that puts on events, you know. Yeah, I think there are— it's becoming probably more on the oversaturated side now. But why would you say to anyone, no matter the industry or the business, that events should be brought into what you do? Because, you know, I've seen the benefits of it, but what would you say to someone starting out?

Yeah, I think it works for kind of any industry. And I'd say that if we're just looking at people's careers, I would say if you're looking at specifically going into events for your career, looking at it from the supplier's side, you know, if you want to go and work in, let's say, you want to start a street food business or a catering business or become a photographer, then my advice would be to dial down on a niche and make sure that you're the best at that. So whether it's a certain type of food that you want to produce, a certain style of photography, just absolutely nail that and, and make it your thing. And really know that you are very confident in delivering what you do the best. Um, and I know that's a very easy thing to say, but it's like, you know, really dialing down into a certain area is the most important thing I would say for really successful, um, event suppliers. Um, but then on the other side of things, why is it important to build in events to you know, into your work. If you're, you know, working in a company and you're trying to justify why you want to have a summer party or a Christmas party, all the— I don't want to be boring about it, but all the data backs up why that's like a really, really great idea. People are more remote these days physically because you're mostly working hybrid. Maybe 2, 3 days a week in the office or none at all. And that means that— and like, while there are so many benefits to that, it's fantastic, it does mean that cross-team collaboration has dropped off massively. People are way more compartmentalized in their departments at work. And, you know, there are so many studies that prove that when you're on a— when you're get on socially well with the team that you work with. You produce better work together as a team. And, um, you can— and when it feels like we're quite a way away from people going back for drinks at the pub on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursdays on a very regular basis and building those relationships, but our events for a company are a very quick way of being able to build up those relationships in like a fun environment. So, you know, throwing, um, a summer party or a monthly drinks or food or kind of like catered nights can have huge benefits for a company and bringing employees together, building friendships that actually equate to better work, that equate to more happiness within the company, feeling more aligned with the company's mission, getting to know their managers or founders of the company and, you know, building those relationships that actually lead to Um, people's satisfaction at work and, um, and good work as well are super important. Um, and I would add to that, that, uh, while you can, you can get it so right by throwing a good event with a bit of thought that's gone into it, you can also get it wrong if you throw something that seems maybe a bit not particularly thought through or a bit lazy. Then it seems like you're trying to sort of fake it to make it. And so there's a fine line, but if you throw events in a really positive way with a bit of thought behind them, you can get a great result for your team.

I think it's much like anything, like, you know, I think events and that in-person nature, it gives you the opportunity to, to show you care more than anything else. And I think that's all people really want. Yeah, that's all you can really ask for. Um, and it's such a great outlet to do it, right?

Oh, absolutely. And, and also, I, I think, um, it's on a really basic level with, with work in particular, if I'm thinking about it, you know, in my early days of, of work pre-COVID, um I, I made so many of my friendships at work, um, uh, particularly having moved to London. You know, I'm not from London originally, um, and, and a lot of the early friends I built, or early friendships I built, were through work. And I think, uh, you know, I've obviously got a bit older and I have a group of friends, so it's not like— but, but it's, it's much harder to make friends at work now just because you're not spending as much time together physically, or you're not necessarily spending the time together after work quite as much. Uh, and I think throwing regular events as a, as a company is like a really beneficial thing for your employees because it does genuinely give them a chance to expand their networks, meet new people. I think, you know, particularly as me as someone moving to a new city, there are lots of people who work in the London tech scene who are potentially moving from a, from a different country, and it can be really hard to kind of build up friendships in a new place, uh, without kind of having those work connections. So I think events and throwing them regularly, you know, can really have, have big benefits, not just for work but also for your employees' lives as well.

And to make all this work, you've had to build like a pretty big team that crosses multiple different sort of roles, you know, whether that's your developers or, you know, maybe data analytics or whatever it is. You're in charge of, of building this team, and it's such an important, you know, make or break thing with a business. Do you have the right people behind it? Talk to me about, you know, the process of actually building this team. What are you looking for in your students and the people, you know, entering the team? How can they stand out to you?

Yeah, it's, it's a really interesting— because obviously, you know, down the years I've must have been involved in hundreds and hundreds of interviews by this point, and, uh, we've made some brilliant hires, we've made some hires that haven't necessarily worked out. So I think, you know, have a pretty, uh, pretty like wide range of experience in this area now. I would say that like an area for us which is super important and is a bit of a cliché, but is just that we need people who can come in and, uh, uh, kind of confident to own their spaces. Uh, and that's not necessarily, um, you know, that's not saying we expect you to come in and be able to nail it from day one and teach us everything we need to know about you're coming in as BBC or SEO or a developer who's going to know everything. It's just that we want people to feel confident in leading their areas and making mistakes. So I think what's really important is people who are keen to kind of come in and put themselves out there a bit, not afraid to kind of take some risks. Within, within reason, but, uh, but, uh, and kind of like put themselves out there a bit. Um, innovate for the company, like, is super important for us. And I think it's a legacy of having started, um, a business quite young, is that, to be honest, when we started, uh, didn't know a thing. And it's been so important for us to have people, uh, that we can, uh, kind of lean on and know are gonna do the research in their areas to bring us along. And that's what we really look for in new people— people who are gonna not necessarily just do their jobs but have a bit of a— I'm not talking like overtime here, but like, you know, have a real think about what it is that they're doing, think critically about their roles. How can I improve this for the company? Maybe I'm gonna actually think about another area of the company that I've come in and I've seen isn't working, and I'm happy to pipe up about that, which take— can take a bit of confidence. But, uh, we try and create an atmosphere where that's like very, um, hopefully easy to do for people. Um, but, um, but yeah, it's always like people who come in and are not afraid to point out an area of the company which they think isn't working as well as, uh, could be, and potentially suggest like new improvements is always super valuable to us and always going to listen to that. And we try and like get that into people when they join, that don't be afraid to like rock the boat because no one's gonna, no one's gonna mind.

I think it's that, it's that empowerment piece that is so important, right? And I think students, we're craving empowerment. And, and I think sometimes we do think it's, it's hard to show how you can actually truly stand out as innovative and disruptive. I mean, is, is there any sort of case study of, of somebody that you've hired that has gone on to make that difference, that you could just tell from their previous experience at a young age? It's like, okay, well, that, that's different.

Well, yeah, it's an interesting one because it's not so much about experience, particularly in the early days of when you hire. Um, and I think we actually really hired as much through luck as anything else, some really great people in our early days just came in, people who were, uh, really flexible in what they did. And you need that for a startup in the— at, uh, at first it's— you want people who are going to come in and not be afraid to muck in in different areas. And that's still, to be honest, the case now. Um, and, uh, I think people who embrace that flexibility when it comes to work is super important. And not just— and I mean that for, for like their benefit as much as ours. Like, it's really important now, uh, with tech and, you know, the world moving so quickly, you have to be quite adaptable because it's very feasible that, um, the job that you do won't exist in 2 years' time for whatever reason that might be. It's just the reality is that you have to be able to kind of adapt to changes that are happening, uh, and, uh, and kind of keep up to date with everything. So like, that's, that's a really important part of it for us. And I'd say that you can The people who've done really well in the business, you know, I'd like to think that we've like, uh, there have been a whole load of people who've, you know, progressed through their careers with us over a long time, and it's like one of the most satisfying things that you can see. And I, I'd say that like, yeah, the common, uh, common trait is that they're, you know, not afraid to jump in, try new areas, um, you know, learn, uh, about, you know, new pieces of tech, new trends in the events industry, and kind of become, um the go-to people for those in the company.

Yeah, and I think if we can look at your own career journey as well, where you went in as an English student, you know, not knowing what you wanted to do, and, and you referenced getting into The Independent was, was luck, right? But what was the actual, you know, the bit in between getting that luck, actually making yourself possible to, to capitalize on that, and, and not knowing what you want to do? How did you start getting in the right mindset that you could become, you know, a valuable employee to the next job?

Yeah, I'll be honest, like, I, uh, I didn't necessarily know back then. I was applying for a load of jobs, um, hoping that, uh, I'd get one. I was lucky enough to, like, go along, did a couple of, like, trial days there, and then basically just, like, got brought on on a freelance capacity and just hung around until they were like, yeah, I guess you're working here now. And that's sort of That's kind of how The Independent worked back then. I don't know if it is now. Uh, but, um, so that was, that was good. But it, but it was, um, really like putting yourself out there. I just like, oh my God, knows how many things I was applying for a day. I was also like, um, reaching out. Journalism is an interesting one because you can always reach out to people to write, uh, freelance. So I did some like, uh, I just like was constantly pitching like articles, and I got, I just got like a, a few like articles published, um, independently, you know. And to be honest, like, I wasn't getting paid. I'm not extolling the benefits of working for free to go and get— because that's, you know, a whole, uh, that's a diff— difficult thing. But, uh, uh, but I was, you know, like writing articles, making sure that I was busy so that I could then say, look, I have written for XXX and X. And yeah, maybe I was only earning not very much money or like, uh, nothing for doing those, but it gave me a bit of like ammunition to be able to say I have done stuff before.

Yeah, I think a lot students can, they can overlook the importance of just doing something for the sake of like, I want to get better at it and I want to actually start enjoying something. Yeah, it's quite easy to get stuck in the whole rigmarole of do your degree and, and that's the only thing that you can be like validated on or, you know, even graded on. And I think what you're saying there is that, you know, obviously a lot of people will see your career journey as very accomplished and in some ways, you know, you get a great job, a great journalist, and then, you know, you found your company and your first company goes really well. But it isn't for, you know, you experience the same feelings not knowing what you want to do. The difference is that you just went and tried things, right?

Yeah, I think it's really important to always be trying stuff, particularly in the early stages of your career, because also I think that, uh, a career path is a very difficult thing for people to know that young. And the older I get, the more I feel that as well, right? So now I'm 32, and I'm, for want of a better way of putting it, still not entirely sure what I want to do. Like, I love what I do. It's been fantastic. And I think, like, you know, working as an entrepreneur has been brilliant. But career paths are really hard things. And I think, you know, I meet 50-year-olds who don't necessarily— who you feel are in the same position. And, um, it's a tough one because often people's chosen career path can appear at 18, it can appear at 16, straight after uni or a bit later on. But I think you always have to be somewhat flexible about it and thinking about areas that are adjacent and how you can learn about those areas. Not saying you need to go and like do a study, a course, or necessarily make sure you're always like, you know, doing an extra degree on the side or going to a master's or something else. You don't necessarily need to be doing that. You just need to make sure you're keeping up with the trends in the industry. And I would say that's really important at the moment. And I don't want to bleat on about like AI because you can't move for any podcasts where people are talking about AI. But like, the reality is, is that that's going to make a lot of people— it's going to change a lot of people's jobs a lot over the next few years. Uh, it already has changed a lot of people's jobs, and, um, uh, you have to think about how you can adapt. I think about lots of people who are working in, uh, I was having, for example, I was having a chat with one of our investors who was talking about his, uh, his, um, son who I think was, uh, at uni. And, you know, his son was thinking about becoming a lawyer, but the chat that they were having was, you know, our lawyer is being a a contract lawyer going to exist in 6 or 7 years' time because of the rise of tech? And the answer is like, maybe, yeah, and maybe it's a bit of a false alarm about that, but the reality is that it might not, and industries really are going to change. So I think you always have to bear that in mind and never get comfortable, as uncomfortable as that might be, because you have to think about what would I do if, you know, worst case scenario, this job doesn't exist in a year's time? What would I then go and do? And yeah, a lot of people are doing things like side hustles and learning on the side, and that's fantastic. And I do, while appreciating that lots of people don't have the time to do that, I think it's a really— if you do, I think it's a really important thing to go and, go and try.

Yeah, it's true. I think, okay, even if it's entrepreneurship or working at events, I think you can be very easy to stop yourself and say, oh, that first experience in that, or that first role within that world wasn't for me.

Yeah.

And not actually like dig into the other routes within it. Yeah, and I think kind of what you're saying there is like, you know, it shouldn't actually be a scary thing that jobs are going to be taken away. It should allow you to think, okay, this is a way that I can adapt with the times, or I can look at other roles where my significance is so, so necessary that it can't be replaced.

Yeah, and I think step one is just being conscious of that, right, and thinking, okay, if this would be the case what would I go and do about that? Like, uh, and again, I really stress, like, you don't need to immediately go and do a course on how to master AI. Maybe that's a good idea, but also, like, that course will probably be redundant in a year's time anyway because things are moving so fast. So I don't even really know what to work— but, but, you know, you, you just have to be kind of—

it's, it's as much about just being conscious that that is the fact and thinking about how that might apply to the work that you do specifically and how that might change in the future and just making sure you're conscious of And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you, when you first started out in your career journey, you would have had a certain idea of what success might, might mean to you in your career. But, you know, fast forward with everything you've learned and building your business and getting to the point that you're at now, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Um, I, I think it's different for everyone is a really important thing to say. I know you asked me about what my definition is, but I think it's really important to acknowledge that like I think there's a very, uh, slightly blinkered view of what success is. And for, uh, you know, I'm, I'm now at a stage of my life where lots of people around me are, you know, getting married or, you know, thinking about having kids and stuff like that. And for a lot of people, you get to that point, that is success achieved. And like, and I think there's like, uh, and that's fantastic. Uh, I'd say, uh, I find it like a slightly different difficult question to answer because for me the answer is like being satisfied in your job and finding it really, really exciting. And when it comes to like a career path, I think for me that's the, uh, idea of for me what success is. I don't think it's necessarily about, um, how much you earn or what you get out of it. I mean, great byproduct, but ultimately the most important thing is you're working, uh, you're going to be working the majority of your life for the majority of your time. What's most important is making sure that you are at least enjoying that part of your life or finding it exciting and interesting. So, for me, that's what definition of success would be, and that's a different job for everyone, right? So, you know, it could be that, you know, working in hospitality or events is that for lots of people. For some people, it might be, you know, they might find working in finance highly satisfying and interesting. But, uh, that's why I think, you know, settling on a career too early can be dangerous, because for me, success is like satisfaction in your job, which is going to take up the majority of your life. So try and make it exciting.

Love that, mate. Pleasure having you on. Thanks for sharing all your wisdom. And, uh, yeah, honestly, I wish you the best. And I definitely, you know, being in events myself, we're gonna look into how I can harness what you're doing together for many years to come, I'm sure.

Well, thanks so much for having me. It's been, been great fun.

Yeah.

Pleasure.

Cheers.