Ian McKenzie, Brand Manager @ Sports Interactive

Ian, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your career so far and what is you up to now.

First of all, I've never been offered a beer on a podcast, so thank you for that. I'm joking, there's no beers. Um, the question, so if I could take you back to how I started my career, okay, it kind of goes back, to be honest, from, um being at school and getting my GCSE results and getting 4 GCSEs. And I remember being in the bathroom crying on the phone to my dad, and I think he had realised that he could have, we all could have chipped in a little bit more to have worked harder at school. And I spoke to him about it and I said to him I was going to be a plumber. And he said, "That's fine, plumbers make a lot of money," and everybody always says plumbers make a lot of money. But I was a bit too proud for that at the moment and we tried everything we could to try and get me back into school and school said no. But my business studies teacher, the only class that I did well in, I got a B, I was pretty happy with that, she recommended I go to a college which had a diploma, like a business diploma. So, to be fair to my dad, he stuck in there, got the setback from the school, drove to the college and got me into a diploma. There I basically discovered marijuana, I think. Yeah, marijuana, you can say that on the podcast. And I became a bit of a lazy student at college. And what I learned there was I wasn't very good with numbers, but on the creative side of business and the creative side of, well, marketing, I actually you know, I fancy myself in that one particular topic. But I think it's changed a lot from your age, from when I was a student, because it was pretty much like you either go to university or you don't, like you're not gonna make it in this world. Like that was in the back of my head. My brother went to university and that was always the rhetoric I was playing in my head over and over again. So I think I've always had this attitude within me that like I leave things to the last minute but I think that's when I do my best work because I know it's gonna get done. And I didn't really know that at the time but looking back I know that I possess that. So yeah, during college, university applications came around and I applied to go to Bournemouth to do marketing and then my career really started, the reason I chose that course is because it had a placement year. And my career started really and truly on my third year of university, which would have been a placement year. My first job, I was applying all year to try and get a placement. I was, yeah, I tried pretty much everything, but this one person came into our talk and said that, you know, to get a job, you really need to like stand out and grab people's attention. And QR codes back then were just like, that was like the new AI. QR codes, they had a resurgence over COVID, but before then it was like, this was like the new thing. So I just had an idea to put a QR code onto my CV and then I sent it out and attached the QR code was like basically a website which was my CV, but it was just the thought that I'd taken a little bit extra time. And yeah, someone in France working at Airbus got my CV, got my QR code, and decided to give me a year placement. So, my career started in Toulouse really, working for Airbus, and I think that was a really coming-of-age moment for me because living abroad, whereas before I was just, you know, usual, I don't know what students do these days, but back then it was quite, I'd say the work was an afterthought really. And going to France really like shook me up. It was the first time I was getting paid, it was in a new country, like the anxiety I had knowing that I couldn't speak anyone's language was like really like shook me up and made me, yeah, made me just become a little bit more serious with myself. So I'm obviously taking you through a whole sort of life story, but after that went back to university, managed to get a 2:1 by scraping through. But yeah, somehow I managed to get a job at Unilever, which for a first job out of university for someone that didn't really rate himself for the whole of academia and then suddenly I was like, I managed to get a job at a company which was one of the companies I was studying in my textbooks, like Unilever was a big thing to me. And in terms of like, yeah, the element of pride that I had when I got that job, I was so over the moon and kind of shocked and I think, yeah, That's how my career began. It didn't last long for that to satisfy me. After 2 years I became, like, I always felt like I wanted to be an entrepreneur or a businessman or whatever you like to call it, or a hustler, probably the word I would call it. I think that came from my dad and he likes me to remind people of this, I believe he was genuinely the first man to bring Pokémon cards into the UK, and that made me quite a popular kid at school. He would sell them on the playground, which was a bit weird, but it had to be done because they were illegal and he was like, come, it was like he was drug dealing, but he would come on the playground and be like, yeah, I've got 2 packs of basic. So yeah, he, I think seeing that from a young age and like knowing, seeing how my dad quit his big job in advertising to like just gamble everything and just become like a man that sells Beanie Babies and Pokémon was like, I guess it was kind of inspiring and yeah, so after Unilever, decided to leave, I wrote this post which is quite funny when I look back on it, I need to repost about it again, but it was like, after 2 and a half years, I'm leaving Unilever to see the world and to, basically realize my dream.

Find yourself.

Find myself. Yeah, to find myself and realize my dream. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll be back in a few months. If anyone has any opportunities, hit me up. And to be fair, loads of people commented, um, and this was like LinkedIn before LinkedIn was even a thing. Um, and then one startup in particular, uh, gave me an opportunity. I FaceTimed, Skyped them over, um, over when I was in Australia and I had a shaved head and that was quite surprising that I managed to pull them over with a shaved head. Well, the first interview I was like, well put together, and the second one I was just like shaved head in like Hawaiian shirt and they gave me a chance when I came back. But it was for an influencer marketing startup and they, it quickly became apparent that obviously they were hiring me because I worked for Unilever and they wanted to kind of like get me the keys to Unilever. And from the person that had just wrote a post about how I was trying to like realize my dreams, the thought of like working with people from Unilever was a bit of an ego death for me. So it just didn't really work. I got fired after like 4 months. 'Cause obviously, yeah, I didn't really see it with so much clarity at the time, but when I said to them, yeah, I don't think I can get Unilever, I think that was pretty much it. Basically, after getting fired, Throughout my 20s, it's really been, I think the term finding yourself is essentially just finding a way to believe in yourself. And some people can do it earlier than others, and for other people it just takes a longer time. So really I've just been, like my biggest project after leaving uni, after getting fired, I would do like freelance marketing work on the side, but I built a project called FC Not Alone, which was On the back of my cousin's depression, when he kind of made a recovery, we basically decided there was a campaign at the moment, at the time called Project 84, and we basically decided like the charity CALM, they're the first people to communicate about mental health in a way which is a bit, not like laddie, 'cause that word's gone downhill, but like in a way which isn't like, oh, this person's, you know, very suicidal, come and help him. It was in a way which is creative where it was like, oh, we all get that. Yeah, we all have those feelings. And it was just, it really connected with us. And I think on the back of his, um, yeah, on the back of his depression, it really, it really hit a tone of us. We wanted to basically raise money for that charity using football because like back then again, it wasn't really that spoken about that football had any relation to mental health. But it's quite simple when you think about football being such an outlet for so many men, there's a mental health crisis, let's use football as the vehicle to have a conversation about mental health because people always talk about football. So yeah, the first meeting was pretty cool. We met the charity, we said we have this project idea, we're going to call it FC Not Alone, we're going to do a charity tournament to raise money for your charity. They were, they were really happy with it and then the next project was to create a kit with which we partnered with Adidas, which was to sell the kit to raise awareness for mental health. And that was a project which kind of was all-encompassing, and I basically quit my freelance stuff to go full-time on that. But that was like, yeah, not-for-profit, it's an interesting one. I'll get into that later, but I think like for me, underneath any vehicle, whether it's entrepreneurship, not-for-profit, you being a content creator, being a YouTuber, whatever. I think there's just a yearning to be noticed, and I think we all have that, just to, you know, as a human need, self-actualization. And I think it started to like rub off on me that my brother— my cousin has moved on from this chapter, you know. It's been 2 years. Like, he doesn't really want to keep going on ITV News and Sky News to keep talking about how he was depressed 2 years ago. We felt there was a lot of imposter syndrome because I felt like a lot of people's were, yeah, looking to the wrong people for inspiration because we'd moved on from that chapter. And I felt like at that time I could just keep banging this drum. I do, you know, of course I, I, I believe men should look after their mental health. Of course I'm passionate about it, but, um, it can be ironically pretty stressful to keep talking about mental health. And I see this with a lot of people that once you start getting recognition for a topic, they want you to keep like banging on that drum and you feel like that's the drum that you need to keep banging for the rest of your life. So it was a big release for me when I could kind of like put that to a side. So yeah, put that to a side and move on, like it was a successful chapter of my life, but I moved on. And then I got a job working for the people that made Football Manager, which was pretty fun. Sports Interactive, really, and that was over COVID. So that was really important for me to, um, yeah, to have a job over COVID because it was a weird time to be like at home. Just, I, I was either playing COD or working. It was for 2 years pretty much. Um, and yeah, going full circle, after 2 years of that, I, I built up enough confidence again, enough like, yeah, enough confidence to feel like, you know, I understand branding, I understand marketing. I've worked as a brand manager now at Unilever, at Sports Interactive. It's now or never, really. Just make that switch like I'm never going to get a job again. Like, that was the mental switch.

Yeah, when I found your, your profile on LinkedIn, what stood out to me and why I wanted to get you on was because of your post about branding and your, your interest in it and what you've done in it. And when did you realize the importance of branding? And what has branding, why is branding so important for companies in your opinion?

For me, it's like, everybody wants to kind of start a new business. There's so many businesses out there. The only way people are gonna remember your offering is via your brand. And when you were asking me about your, your project you're working on. Branding for me is, we can overcomplicate it, but at the end of the day, if you actually think how many brands you can reel off, that's because you've seen their logo time and time and time again. And branding realistically on a supermarket shelf is normally down to the price and if it's on offer at the same time, or if when you're at the shelf, whatever brand that pops out at you the most is the one that you choose for whatever you want. And I think like, I definitely understand the importance of branding and ironically it's the bit that I get too obsessed with when I go to create a business or when I go to create a project because it's the fun bit. It's like, oh, the identity, the strategy, the like, how's it gonna speak? How's my logo gonna look? And whilst I'm kind of contradicting myself, it's vital when your business is already established and it's vital for you to get remembered, but it isn't, to be fair, the first thing you need to do when you create a business. First you need to create— well, you've got to create a good product or service, and you need to understand if there's market fit. And yeah, whilst I, whilst I like— I think it is vital to build something extremely valuable, I do think like when you're starting a project, it's the thing that everybody gets excited about and realistically, building a business takes a long time, and getting brand recognition takes a long time. And I think, yeah, from what I learned at Unilever quite quickly on, you wouldn't believe the attention to detail that a company like that pays to their brand. They've got, yeah, all the brand stories of all of the brands in documents that are so thorough, and everybody in the company needs to understand them. and this is partly why I left working there, to be honest. Your role, essentially, when you're in a company like that is looking after the brand. So if your agency you work with is doing all the cool stuff, they're on the shoot, they're the ones directing it, you're basically there being the annoying person that says, "Oh, can you just make sure our logo's a bit more visible in that?" And the importance of that, I'm not too sure. I think there's a lot of, like, everybody just wants, as I said, to feel important, and you feel like it's the duty of you as the brand manager to make sure your logo gets enough airtime. So, to answer your question, it's, I mess with branding because it's the fun part of business, and there's a lot of stuff that's just really granular, really long, and You know, branding is just the thing that you see with your eyes straight away that you can take pleasure from seeing and feel proud of.

Yeah, it seems like you're an expert in this field with so much experience to back that up. How would you recommend seeing through the lens you see? It seems like you have this sort of innate ability to see a brand for what it is. And, um, yeah, what, what are some shortcuts to be able to have that perspective?

Yeah, is that ChatGPT's question? That was mine. Oh, that's your question. Um, You know, again, with a logo, so there's a misconception obviously that a brand is an identity, is a logo. That's one facet of it. I think that's the thing that we all jump to a conclusion about a brand, but ultimately the definition that I think's the easiest to understand is that it's the feeling that people get when they interact with with your product or with your business. And it's got to be recognizable in a sea of competitors, but also it's got to, like right now, and Unilever were probably the first to do this, brand purpose is like fundamentally the baseline of what every brand seems to have to have now. Because it's so competitive, you need to be bringing something else to the world, um, that is going to positively impact the world. I think that's, that's fundamentally what everybody kind of talks about. I think even your generation are getting apparently more, more and more, um, selective with the brands and the products that you buy. Um, I've read lots of stats to say that people like have basically cancelled brands based on their old like ethics. Um, but again, like, you look at, you look at Nike and like Nike and brands like that, they've pulled the wool over our eyes for so long, and I think they will continue to do so of what it's actually like behind the brand. Um, I'm going off on too many tangents, but you're— but to, to, in terms of like branding, where I've kind of evolved to now is like what my business is now is personal branding. I think that's something that I've I've shifted to because I enjoy working with humans a lot more than working with emails and spreadsheets.

You alluded to earlier that you've got this passion for football and maybe even gaming, and you said the company you worked for was the people behind Football Manager, and then you also worked for Unilever. What was the difference between the two companies? One you stayed at a a lot longer and, and one you probably enjoy more. Now you're doing it for yourself, like, how important is it to be passionate about what you're actually doing the branding for?

Yeah, so there's the two best workplaces in terms of the people I've worked at are those companies. At Unilever, I, I didn't realize at the time because I didn't have a binary metric, but when I left that company and then I got fired from a startup and I realized like how bad work cultures can be Unilever, I was in awe with how multicultural it is as a company and how many people are like really, really nice. And I think it's a great question you ask because also at Sports Interactive, I've never met a more passionate bunch of people for the work that they do. And that's because we've all grown up playing Football Manager. It's an iconic game. These people love football and it's basically a football lover's dream to work there. And it really reflects, it really reflects well in the culture that like everybody is so sincerely passionate about the project. And obviously when you think of a brand, again, like, that's the unwritten stuff that goes behind scenes in luxury fashion. For example, I'm having these conversations at the moment with a lot of founders and about a lot of founders, and I've heard that industry is just rife with, with toxicity. And I guess that kind of suits the image of fashion. I think that's, that's kind of, um, you know, it goes part and parcel with, with, with what it is, but you can't build a business and a brand to be to the scale, you know, it depends how big you wanna build it, but in terms of the team and the culture, I think that is now becoming a bigger, bigger part of what a brand needs to be. It needs to, and you know, this is a university podcast, the conversation right now about work culture and the demands, that really the staff are putting on the companies they work with to make the employees' lives better is getting, I think, potentially more and more unreasonable, but is getting bigger and bigger. So yeah.

Yeah, and with branding, it's not just about having a good product as well. It's about standing out. And I've seen on a lot of your posts, I mean, Well, one of them is Oatly, right? Something that, it's just milk, you know, but it's managed to stand out amongst its competitors. What are some examples of some brands that you really feel passionate about? And now that you're working for yourself, how do you pick which brands you actually wanna work with?

So, distinctive, I think distinctive brand assets, and it was why I asked you before I jumped in the room about your podcast, it's something that you keep, like people come back to Stephen Bartlett's podcast, for example, because at the end there's a question which says, "The last guest on this podcast asked this question, I haven't seen it." That's an example of a distinctive asset, and that's an example of going back to that and getting the same experience over and over again, familiarity. I, Monzo is, the most obvious example of a distinctive brand asset and a brand that stood out. I remember vividly the first time I saw that card and I just wanted it. I just wanted it because it was— I'd never seen that hot coral, they call it, that color before. And it was called Mondo back in the day. And they also did like this FOMO kind of like referral scheme where you could only get it if you invited 5 other people to do it. And also it was like a digital bank, which was a new thing at the time. So that's like my staple go-to standout brand. I, yeah, I think Oatly was very innovative obviously when they came on the scene. I think minor figures is actually the oatmeal, which is funny, that I believe stands out most because it's literally just a white carton with a, with a green, um, green signal. But yeah, distinctive brand assets, as I said, because I believe branding is about over a long period of time showing up, showing up, giving the same experience. And just reminding people you're there. I mean, that's why media budgets for companies like Coke, Unilever, Nike are so vast, because marketing, advertising, communication is really just repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, um, and making sure that those logos and brands are implanted like every time that person goes to, um, goes to buy something.

I think my favourite distinctive brand asset has to be the Stig from Top Gear.

Yeah, that's actually a really good one. That's a post in that. That's a really good one. Yeah, I like that.

But anyway, as you say, your work at the moment, you've— moving on from, from Top Gear, improving your personal brand. Students at the moment, as you say, similar to almost a product, you're sitting there in a wave of competition from other people who are all very skilled. In terms of maybe focusing on students at first, what are some tips on improving personal brands that you can you can think of?

Well, my first tip is forget that anybody cares about what you have to say. And I think that's what holds us back all the time when we go to do anything online. I think you guys have already got past that stage because you have a podcast. I think a lot of people, before they had gone to the idea to create a podcast, would have started worrying, what if nobody interacts with it? What if nobody wants to come on? You know, it's always the what-if sort of from a negative point of view. And I think you guys have made a great step in terms of going over that barrier. So my first tip is always You, you— I think for students it might be different because you're still getting to that stage of like building your network. Um, but from your first job and your first experience, obviously then you've added people on LinkedIn, you're starting to build that network, and that will come over time just from being in more places, attending more events. Um, and never— I, I think never underestimate just getting on your LinkedIn and just hammering that connect button and just constantly like adding new people. And I think obviously you've got, when you're a student, you have that, um, is why I'm here today. Everybody wants to give back because we've been given, but like, given back when we were your age. And I think you use that to your advantage when you're a student, is you have this blissful naivety, that ignorant, like, you're almost ignorant to the world, and you should be because you haven't yet had all of the experiences that other people have had. So my first tip is, I guess, embrace the fact you're a student and just make sure that you're putting your thoughts online. I think what we're seeing right now with this, with, with AI, is that, um, you know, people that are really experienced in their careers are worried about it. So, you know, getting into, getting into a career is, is also like, it's also going to be quite difficult, to be fair. So the only way you can cut through that is by creating an identity around yourself and sharing why you're special, because we all have like special insights and value to bring to the world. But as we go more and more digital, of course that continues to happen. People need to— yeah, people need to hear you. And they— if you're not, if you're not playing the game that everybody else is playing, then you're already at a disadvantage.

Yeah.

And you said earlier that hammer the connections button on LinkedIn, and I do do that as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll gain a lot of traction on your post, right? And that's something I've been trying to work out. It's the algorithms make no sense to me. And, you know, I've seen you're someone who has managed to get the algorithm to work in your favor. What's some advice to people trying to grow their voice on, you know, not just LinkedIn, just social media in general? What are you— what's your knowledge of the algorithm?

Yeah, it is a two-way street, a two-way street. So if people are actually a bit nervous to start creating content in the beginning, just start engaging on other people's content. So if you've added people, even on like any platform, if you're, you know, everybody wants likes and engagement on their content. So if you can give that to other people, then naturally over time people are going to reciprocate. And then the platform, platform, whatever it is, is going to reward your behavior. They're going to see that you're not— as long as you're not spamming and you're actually thinking about what you're writing rather than just love this or great stuff. Um, I think people will appreciate having a fan, and if you can just be the fan for as many people, when it comes out to you putting your stuff, it would be rude for them not to interact with you back. So I think that's a tactic anybody can do from today, is just like, instead of just hammering the like button, think, you know, even if it's just, I don't know, 10 or 10 or 20 times a day commenting something that is actually building to the narrative of the post and the discussion that that person wants to have when they post it. that will be a great first point of contact.

Yeah, and thank you so much. I'm sure there's so much for all the students to take from that. What about on your startup now? What is exactly that you do within personal branding, if you just want to explain it quickly?

Yeah, so the reason why I'm passionate about personal branding, so my startup's called RealityCheck, and I've come to this game a little bit later than others. There's some people doing unbelievable stuff. So personal branding, in terms of like what it is from a technical point of view, point of view, is working with people to essentially write their LinkedIn content. Like, if that's at the bare minimum, the technical aspect. And how I've seen that play out over the past couple of years is I've seen people that I've met in real life, and then I go to see them on LinkedIn, and it's like there's a picture of them, like, with a thumb emoji and a story that is really basic. There's no meaning from that story. And for some reason it's gone viral. And that's because there's some people that are very talented in understanding algorithms, but I, again, coming from that branding background, I don't believe that's personal branding. I believe that's just gamifying an algorithm and getting somebody viral, viral, viral. And I believe with the element of branding, that does a lot of long-term damage as well, 'cause people get a bit sick of seeing someone that's just talking about stuff that they probably wouldn't even talk about in the pub or over coffee. So for me, how I do it a little bit differently, I go really deep on the one-to-one conversations up front. We have strategy sessions, we have, I interview the people I work with. And for me, I'm fundamentally trying to understand what insights that person actually has to bring to the table and what do they actually care about. And I think you'd be really surprised, the amount of conversations I've had with people that on the surface have higher status or a lot more money than me I don't know, have a lot of followers, you'd be really surprised at how many people care about what others think of them. Like, it doesn't matter how successful they are, they still have imposter syndrome and they still get scared to put their thought out in the world. And I think a lot of people actually, when they already have a strong reputation offline, they already have, um, a brilliantly functioning business, the idea of entering the game and then putting something out there and then not getting any engagement kills their ego, really. They see that as a failure. And these people don't like failure, so they're gonna be very scared to put something out there and feel like no one's gonna engage. But always what happens is, because they've built up such a repertoire in real life, when you go to talk online, there are people that actually sincerely wanna hear you, and they'll support your content. So yeah, personal branding for me, there is the technical element of writing content on other people's behalf, But I don't get to that stage until I truly know the person I'm writing for and I'm writing as if I'm inside their head. But also I'm writing because I've had conversations with them and I've taken notes and it's basically the words they've said to me but I've then turned it into a language which is digestible on a mass audience scale. But the reason I'm so passionate about it is because it's like, again, like I said, I believe everybody Everybody needs to, to big themselves up, and everybody needs to show the world why they're special. And it's going to be more in demand as the years go by. Um, and I get passionate about— I like gassing people up, to be honest. Like, I like sitting with people that don't— for some whatever reason, they don't think they have anything to bring to the table, they don't think they're interesting. And then to me, they're like way more interesting than me, and I'm able to then play a small role in talking to them to make them realize how brilliant they are, and then they always leave a session feeling like, ah, I really like this personal branding thing.

Do you think to build your brand, you need to know what your brand is before you start doing it, or should you start just putting content out?

It sounds like your job. Your job is to sort of, to form their personal brand, to actually make them only realize realize exactly what it is that is sellable and marketable?

Yeah, I think the people I work with, they already know who they need to be speaking to because I work with a founder of a creative agency, for example. He needs to get clients for his creative agency, so he needs to basically write in a way, or we need to write in a way, which shows that he's insightful, he knows the industry, he's on top of all the topics, and clients are going to want to come to him because he's seen as an expert in the field. So really it's about like, for example, like the projects that either of you are on or the jobs that you want to get. That's what you would end up talking about. Like the way I started with this, how I got to personal branding was because when I've set up like a branding agency first, um, before I pivoted, I just spoke about branding all the time, and I'm a lot better at writing my interpretation of branding in that format, and then people started to follow me and try to give me business based on me being perceived as an expert in branding, and ultimately, you've got me here talking about branding on the spot, and I haven't been able to back up what, how I write about it, but that's kind of like, that's in my head, from my own personal brand, the hat I've been wearing for the last year or so, is the personal branding hat, so it's kind of like I then have now had to shift from my content point of view to be on LinkedIn talking about the importance of personal branding, but it's kind of like, it's not something that is easily articulated in content format in an interesting way as it is to talk about branding.

And you're working for yourself now, and that's maybe something you wanted, you didn't want to work for these big brands, but with that comes a lot of pressure of, you know, you doing the work and maybe some mental health struggles with that as well. Have you found adapting to that, you know, since leaving your job after COVID, how have you found, you know, the whole period navigating this new stage of your life?

I couldn't think of doing anything different. There has been some hard days, like in the beginning when I went down this journey of creating a branding agency, because it was so competitive, there are branding agencies that are phenomenal in this world and, their work is so design-led. You look at the portfolios and you're coming to the market on your own and saying, I'm trying to create a branding agency. It's very, very difficult. So those first days trying to get traction, you know, first 3 to 6 months, hard, really, really hard, but not from a mental health point of view in terms of, I wouldn't say I was like, being mentally ill at the time or suffering with depression or whatever. It's more just like, just bloody hard, just always thinking the worst sort of case scenario. How am I gonna get money? Am I a failure, am I a failure? Do I even know what I'm talking about? And I think it's just having a good support network and just being honest and then talking to people about it generally, like, yeah, generally helped. I think also having a friend that created a service-based business, that really helped me because he was the first person to ever tell me to post on LinkedIn. And I knew that the thing that I could control was at least my creative output by posting on LinkedIn and then trying to reach people. If I wasn't doing that, then I wouldn't have been, you know, I wouldn't have managed to stay self-employed for so long, um, because it was something that I could control. It'd be like, okay, just keep writing content, keep grinding, keep writing content. But I've got, I've got, um, a solid base of clients now. And even, even now, like, you still have to— obviously you think about how can we grow bigger, how can I think about building a team one day, how can I, um, how can I do this, how can I do that. But I know now within myself I'm not going to take a job, and that's been, that's, that's, I'm proud of that because that took me a long time. Whenever I've tried to do any creative project before, there was always this thing of like, I'm gonna end up having to get a job, not believing that would happen. Um, but yeah, the pivot to personal branding has been huge just because it's, uh, there's some really good companies doing, you know, they're, they're obviously bigger and better than me right now, but there's an industry there which is growing and there's less competitors. Um, so yeah, for anybody starting a business, I think get off TikTok and get off Instagram because that's not what it's like. Like, it's not, it's not, um, yeah, it's not Andrew Tate. It's— there's a lot of, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of grinding and there's a lot of lonely, lonely days.

What was the moment then when it sort of click for you? You alluded to sort of 3 to 6 months in, it was a bit of a slog, but is there anything that sticks out where you thought?

Yeah, I think the first person to give me a big project, I had posted about Heights, the brain care pill. I'll talk about a distinct brand asset, to be fair. So they sell nootropics that basically apparently make your day-to-day life better. But they also make you have more brain clarity. They get rid of brain fog apparently. Anyway, they created this bottle which was like really uniquely shaped but kind of like you would want to put it on your kitchen shelf 'cause it was quite cool. And that was a really, that's a really cool execution of packaging and branding because they realized that supplements traditionally would always be put in the cupboard because they're quite ugly. And if they're put in the cupboard, they're out of sight, so they're out of mind. But if you have a really nice bit of packaging and it's on the kitchen side table, people are going to take it. And if they take it, obviously it works, they believe it works, so then they'll buy another one. So I posted about that because I'd heard it on a podcast and I found it really interesting. And then like 2 hours later, someone said, I've been following your posts for a while, but the Heights one really 'You know, really like captivated me. I'd love to work with you on my natural deodorant.' I think that was like, yeah, just your first client win is pretty amazing. But that obviously takes a few more calls and calls. And then when you get the email through saying, 'Yeah, we'd love to work for you,' like it's a big relief. There's also another person, a YouTuber that I, met at a party, um, and then turned them into a client. That was a, that was a big moment because I was really nervous going to that. No, no, no.

So you did a live stream of Zach Alsop as well?

No, it's not Zach. It's not, I promise you it's not Zach. Um, but Zach, no, Zach's just a good friend and we, we mess around on LinkedIn because it's, it's funny messing around on LinkedIn with YouTubers because It's, it's on YouTube, they, they put so much work into their videos and they put so much detail into it. And I think LinkedIn's just a funny place to experiment with YouTuber because it's like you can get, you can kind of go viral on LinkedIn from writing, which could take— my most viral post took me 5 minutes to write. And on YouTube, like, the amount of work that goes into the videos is lit. I think people don't actually realize how much work goes into that. But you could work on an idea from start to finish for 6 weeks, and then you put it out there for the world to see. And then, like, yeah, if it— thankfully now, like, I'm watching— we've been speaking to Zach a lot recently, and the video's all doing really well. But he'll admit himself there was a point in time where his Yeah, his channel wasn't performing as well as it could have been, and I think for a content creator, that is like, that is stressful, man.

Where do you see the future of personal branding, and why is it so important for people to become more aware of and to be involved in?

Yeah, so the, the tagline I've settled on, just to be a bit disruptive, is personal branding for real people. Everything I do, and the gentleman listening in actually reminded me of that, is to really tap into people's authenticity. That literally came out of his mouth. But it is really important because as we all get, like, the platforms, whatever it is, are already getting noisier and noisier. Everybody's trying to talk about the same stuff pretty much in a different way. So where authenticity plays into this is that we all do genuinely have our own quirks. We all have strong opinions, and I'm not talking like Piers Morgan, Katie Hopkins strong opinions, but we do all have strong insights and strong opinions of how we see the world. But they're the most petrifying things to share because they're so personal and they have so much depth. But it's that true, true nature of being that is within us that we do really need to tap into to bring to the table because Yeah, with the rise of technology, with the rise of AI, with the rise of things that can write so much better than you, um, with the fact that you can hire people now to write, you know, on your, on your behalf, all of that will end up getting lost unless, um, unless people really identify, like, identify with what you bring to the table and what your unique offering is. Um, I think I read something like Realistically, if I'm honest with myself, the times I've forgotten about what a great hook is, or I've dismissed all of these templates I have in my Notion folder of this is a great format of posting. When I get rid of that stuff and I stop reading what everybody tells me is the best way to gamify an algorithm, and then I sit there with myself and I've read a book, I've had a coffee, and I basically connect a book and I connect another book and I basically merge a learning from the both, from both of them, and then I internalise that and then go to write it. That is far more interesting than anything else because it's, those are the connections that you can make as a human that other people can't make because they're not you. Your internalisation of something you've read and another book you've read, when you start deep reading into a lot of things, it all kind of merges into new knowledge and it becomes learnt. And when you tap into that, that's what sets your thinking out from others. Like, the true trailblazers, trailblazers in this world, they don't do what everyone else is doing. They literally play their own game. And because they're so unique and they're so interesting, you just follow them. You, even if you hate them, even if they annoy you, you just can't, you can't stop thinking about their thoughts because they're so individualized.

It's interesting taking away the distractions of this day and age and how that can sort of birth the best productivity. And maybe that's what branding is going almost full circle to how it was before. And to finish off the podcast and your thoughts on branding and personal branding has really enlightened both Nelufar and I, and I'm sure everyone listening. But you've had a very interesting career. It's been up and down, as you've alluded to, and, you know, a lot's happened. And what would you say, looking back on it, is your definition of success now then? Because, I mean, was it— did you have one when you set out on your career journey, and has it changed since then?

It's a great question. I think, I think people like me, the issue is you overthink so many things, and even that question is the sort of thing that I'll wake up in the morning and I'll think about it, and then I'll realize, like, it's going to detract away from my enjoyment of today. And ultimately, the only way I believe to live a life enjoyed is every day you wake up trying to enjoy that day, and over time you appreciate that you're a little bit more present, you enjoyed the days, um, and you're not thinking about the past or the future. And I think, like, thinking about my definition of success The one thing I— and this isn't just to be like a mummy's boy or to like try and get people to empathize with me. Like sincerely, I've tried to distill it to what I would look back on as success. And I think it comes down to like my mum, like during the times of me chopping and changing, doing so much like chaotic stuff, like that is quite hard to understand, and she probably experienced it with my father as well. So he was just like, in a great job, quit, you know, things happen good, things happen bad. Like, I would feel very satisfied that I lived a good life when I can say that— it's making me emotional when I go to say it, but when I can say, looking at her in the face, and she just looks back at me and says, "Yeah, I'm so proud of you." And that's ultimately like, ultimately success. I think it comes down to that. The people that you love the most, forgetting all the bullshit of like, I'm sharing content online to grow followers, all of that comes back to this. Like, I just want my family to look at me, my friends to feel like, I'm proud of you. And I think that's all that matters. I think we get so caught up in social media right now, but what, like, it's, it literally is a game. Anybody that's like considering posting online and cares about what people think, they're so irrelevant. All of these people. They really are. The only people that you need to care about are the ones that just, they listen to you when you're down and they show faith in you. Those are the only people to care about. So that's why I, I don't give a, like, I don't care about what I share online. Um, so my definition of success, yeah, going full circle, is, is being able to, like, my, yeah, my mom to feel like you gave it all. I'm so glad I put my faith in you. And by the way, thank you for moving me into a mansion, not a mansion, but just thank you for showing that you weren't just a waste of time on this planet. Not that she'd ever think that, but yeah.

And from your first answer, it's felt like a bit of a rollercoaster since then where you sort of talked about your GCSEs and being like very confused within the education system and then even within jobs and now to actually be doing something you're passionate about. I mean, that must mean you're well on your way to achieving That definition of success.

Yeah, that's why when I, I don't really like going on podcasts 'cause I don't rehearse enough of the things to say, but this one was interesting to me purely because, as I said, I respect what it's like to be a student. It's so confusing, there's so many avenues you can take your life. I also respect that anybody that is trying with a creative output deserves respect because it's, as I said, it's daunting in the beginning. And yeah, I think it's important for students to know that life is full of ups and downs. Like you said to me, it seems like you might have had like struggles with your mental health. I'm not going to take it— I don't take that personally, but I feel like I haven't really. It's just that I'm a human. Life like is going to throw you ups and downs. You're going to go into jobs and you're going to hate them, but that's okay. And I think that's a really important point as well. Like Some jobs just suck, and it isn't down to the employer to make you— of course they need a culture which isn't toxic, but they don't need to make you a great person or whatever. They essentially, they're paying you. If you don't like the job, you have to leave. If you stuck it out for a year and you really hate the job, leave. But don't like— it's not their fault. Like, it's our own. It's as an individual, as a human, It's our own responsibility to try and find satisfaction in this world. We can blame other people, we can blame other things, it's gonna do no good. And you need to really like go on the rollercoaster of life, you need to have terrible hardship, you need to go into jobs that make you feel uncomfortable, you need to start projects and nobody gives a shit about it, you need to just keep trying, doing different things. You need to have a student podcast, it might, in 2 years you might still be doing it, you might not, it doesn't matter. The fact is you gave it a good go, you met some people, and you had good conversations and hopefully you learnt more about the world. But fundamentally, life, it's as simple as you're born, you're going to die, in the middle there's going to be horrible things, there's going to be great things, but as long as you can try and find enjoyment in the everyday and you can treat people with respect and try and help people when you can, that's the only way you're going to have a good life.