Isobel Cowell, Social Media Lead @ Luxe Collective

The reason why personal branding is really powerful and impactful is because it humanizes someone. I'm the biggest advocate for do your 9 to 5 and go home, or like, your job does not have to be your life and it's not to be your everything. And like, even me, like, I try and make a really conscious effort that my job is not my whole life. To build your personal brand, you have to, you know, share everything. You don't— as you said, you want to be known for something. I was at, um, a Harry Styles concert like last summer, and there was like 70,000 seats in the arena. I was like, oh, that's like the amount of followers I have on LinkedIn. And obviously they're not all active followers and they're not, you know, X, Y, and Z, but it is that moment of realization, like actually visualizing it, it's quite terrifying. I got reached out to apply for a job because I had a well-optimized profile. You know, I had the COVID photo and a good headline and about section and my experience in there. And I've done a few posts here and there about my thoughts on marketing campaigns and the fact I've graduated. What really makes people stand out and what people are looking for, what job, like, companies are looking for, is people that are passionate about their company and have that, like, almost ambitious drive.

What is your definition of success?

Isabel, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me. You can just start off by telling us a little bit about your career journey so far.

Yeah, so hi, I'm Izzy. I graduated uni in 2021, summer 2021, so just after the pandemic, and very much did not know what I wanted to do. I done history and politics at uni, so obviously not marketing, not journalism, not business, nothing like that, nothing that one might say is like super, super transferable, like go straight into a specific industry. Which meant I was really, really scared, anxious, literally zero plan. Even like when I went into uni, I knew I wanted a job straight off the back of it, and the pandemic very much ruined that. But yeah, I never really had a huge plan at that point. I kind of started transitioning into the marketing world in my second year of uni. So in second year of uni, I watched the The US office and was like, this is so funny. I do not want this life. This sounds like awful. Um, like being in an office all day where everyone hates their job and is counting down to 5 PM. And yeah, they've got funny jokes on the show. That's not necessarily what the real world would be like if you worked in that situation. Um, so I started like trying to have a think what I wanted to do because as I said, very, very little plan. I knew I wanted to be something creative. I knew I didn't want to be in an office all day, every day, doing something that I just didn't care about and no one else in the office cared about. So I started kind of having a look through like what I was interested in. I kind of turned to movies to like think, what things have I seen in the past that I really enjoyed? Luckily, I didn't think of like Suits or Grey's Anatomy and like wanted to like switch to lawyer or medical because that is a lot. I obviously didn't want to do that. Um, but I started looking at like Devil Wears Prada and Ugly Betty and was like, ah, that sounds really fun actually, which is so stupid because the whole point of them is that like toxic work environments where it's like everyone hates each other and you work ridiculous hours and your boss asks you to do like the craziest long days and the craziest stuff. But there was just something about that world of fashion and magazines and that sort of thing that really intrigued me. So out of some weird bizarre kind of path, um, I got really cocky one night and just found the emails of the editor-in-chief of Glamour and Vogue. And so they're very under Condé Nast, which is like GQ, like basically every big magazine you know is pretty much under Condé Nast. Um, and yeah, and I got an internship at Glamour, which was super super exciting. Did get postponed like a year because of because of the pandemic. But, you know, I worked with them for about a week, wrote some articles that are actually still now published on the website that literally say, "By Isabel Cowell," which was super, super exciting because I didn't think that would happen. And as well, it also shows how important it is to not let little setbacks put you back. Because I remember when it got postponed because of the pandemic, originally it was meant to be in office in Vogue House in London, which is this crazy building with like big revolving doors and marble and all this stuff. If I went and did it in office, I probably would have been making coffees and photocopying all day, whereas because I did it online, to get them to give me stuff to do, I had to pitch articles and then write those articles. And then, you know, I worked for the social media team, which is my first kind of insight into that world of social media, really. Um, from that, did a few more internships. The one with Pretty Little Martyrs, if there's any Martyrs listening to this, and you probably have heard of Sophie. That was kind of my first, once again, big step into the world of social media. Um, she was still growing at the time, and she probably had like 10,000 followers, but she was nowhere near what she is now. And so that was really cool to work with her for like 9 months as a community manager, just kind of like learning the ropes of social media, Canva as well. Um, and then yeah, going back now, at the point again where I've just graduated, so all of that was at uni And despite doing these internships, having some more of an idea what I want to do, I really, really struggled to get a job after uni. And a massive part of that was from not wanting to almost try, not out of laziness, but out of pure and utter fear and anxiety around, oh my God, they're never going to get back to me, I'm not good enough for this job, I don't have enough experience, I don't know what I want to fully do, I don't want to be marketing, but I don't really know what and where. Um, so it actually took me so long to apply for like those first core jobs, and I, you know, started off doing like the bigger companies. But what really, really changed my entire kind of like mindset and trajectory is looking back at both Pretty Little Master, Glamour, things like that. I've never got anything the conventional route. Like, I've never got an internship by going on to LinkedIn or, you know, Indeed or whatever and finding the internship and applying with 200 other people. I've always kind of found another way to get to it. So as I said, just finding emails for Glamour and Vogue. For Pretty Doll Markets, I did a creative CV to like separate myself from everyone else. So I just, I knew I was going to be in Birmingham, so I graduated from UoB. So I literally Googled digital marketing agency Birmingham and sent off pretty much the same. I hope none of them are watching because it was like the same like paragraph for all of them, but with like slightly changed, like, change the type, like, do whatever, and like a little bit of change. And CV, portfolio, sent it off and got like 5 job interviews within like a week. And just off the back of doing that, got a job for like a month and a half before I got a message on LinkedIn. So I guess a little bit of background as well, a bit of further context. I now work in personal branding. When everything we've just spoken about just now has nothing to do— has everything to do with personal branding, but I didn't know at the time. Like, at that point, personal branding was not on my radar. I didn't know it was a word. I didn't know anything. So I began to, you know, I posted on LinkedIn here and there, mostly because of Sophie, um, because she like, she was a bit of a LinkedIn— she was like one of the OG creators actually on that posting. By no means was I a LinkedIn creator. I had like 500 connections, probably mostly through PLM. Um, I'd done like dissertation posts and I graduated and that sort of thing. And I think I did like one or two, um, my favorite marketing campaigns, but I very much did not have a personal brand, as you might like call it today. And I think that's really, really important context for the next kind of stage of my story, is I've got I messaged on New Year's Eve, so I'd literally been working at my current company for a month and a half, part-time, like social media marketing, like nothing crazy. Yeah, I got a message from this guy called Sam Winsbury, and he basically said, I'm hiring for my company, I know you've just started a new role, but would you ever consider thinking about applying for this role of password brand manager? Of course I'd say that sounds amazing, um, and was also like, I have no idea what personal branding is. I'm currently on a train to London for New Year's Eve to like spend it with friends, um, so I literally was like, can I get back to you like tomorrow and send in my CV and stuff? Googled personal branding and realized like how much bigger a thing it was, and I— well, I didn't even know it was a thing, so it was bigger than what I thought it was. I didn't even know it was a thing in itself. But at the same time, it's interesting looking back then how much smaller it was versus now. I'm sure we'll get back more into the details of personal branding down the line. But yeah, became personal brand manager, was the third person to join the company because it was very much a startup. And yeah, worked there for like 5 months before becoming head of social. And then now we've kind of grown like crazy, and they're now about 16 16, 17 employees now from like all around the world, clients that are global as well. And yeah, that kind of brings us to here.

Yeah, so on, on personal branding, um, you said at the beginning of the journey you were nervous and you didn't know what you wanted to do. And I feel like in your LinkedIn posts and the thing that everyone really buys into, you're almost talking about those experiences then and how you got through them. And what you were doing actually did require a lot of confidence maybe you didn't feel at the time. What did you, like, what made you, like, actually go ahead and, you know, apply to those internships or do something a little bit different that other people weren't? Was it just like you knew you wanted to be successful and this is how you had to do it? Was it just like mustering up faith in some kind of confidence?

That's a really— I actually don't think I've ever been asked that question before, so now I actually have to, like, think about it. But I think partly it was out of fear, like complete fear of mediocrity in a sense. Um, I spoke to my mum about this, so I'm sure she won't mind me saying that, but I was asking her like, 'Oh, like, how many people like in your life love their jobs?' kind of thing. And she was like, 'Very, very few.' And I was like, I knew that's not what I wanted at all. So I think that's part of it, is actually the fear sometimes held me back, but at the same time, that fear also was like, I'm so scared of this happening that I need to do more. Actually, as well, TikTok was actually really influential because at the time, this is like kind of the back end of the pandemic when TikTok was getting big, and I was watching people on that that were either like, you know, living there, like doing careers through— like, they're like young, they've come from small backgrounds, and they're like, fashion in New York now. Or there was like one creator, she was talking about like how to write those emails and the exact templates for for it. Um, I think that's really, really useful, and that's also why I, as you said, like, try and speak about it a lot on my own personal brand, because knowing other people are going through the same thing, or kind of them somewhat giving you the, like, stepping stones, even though it is different than what everyone else is doing— so not everyone's doing it, and that's the amazing part about it, because if you do do it, then you're, like, away from the crowd. But at the same time it gives you that kind of reassurance of like, okay, this worked for someone else, I'm just going to give it a go. And as well, on top of that, I think the almost anonymity that being able to apply online and to reach out online— like, if you send an email and someone doesn't reply, okay, who cares? Like, it's an email. It's not like you're having to go up, you know, that classic, you know, parents like, you need to go hand your CV into like the business next door and they'll give you a job. And like, no, that doesn't work, Mum and Dad. But like, that's— it's a lot less scary to just send an email. Like, just send an email, send a LinkedIn message, comment on a LinkedIn post. Once you start doing it, you realize it's a lot less scary. But having those stepping stones laid out, templates, things like that, that other people who've done it before can really help take away that initial fear because you have a bit of a plan.

The majority of our audience are students, and, um, Something I get told by them a lot is, how do you start building a personal brand if you don't feel like you have one, right? And I wonder with yourself, knowing what you know about personal branding, whether when you were a student, if you could go back to those times, when would you have started posting about what you were doing? Like, would you have maybe done things differently while you were at university? What would you tell your younger self?

Yeah, so there's a few things within that because I feel like people ask me this quite a lot. And I'm in a weird way glad that I didn't build a personal brand directly throughout university. Now, this is kind of like a pinch of salt sort of thing where you really got to take it and for your own life and your own experiences. If you're someone who wants to have a business straight out of uni or like go into that startup world or just like really, really wants to like run out the door from university, start a personal brand then and there. For me, I really, I was that kind of person where I really wanted to enjoy university for what it was. Like, I like the socials and I liked my, I love my course actually, like my readings and essays. It sounds really nerdy, but I actually really enjoyed it. And one thing I always like to talk about with my journey is that it's never too late. So for example, all my internships, because Glamour also got pushed back, were all, I did 3 in my final term of my third year. And then as well, I didn't start building my personal brand until like 6 months after I graduated. And I'm 20— I turned 23 in August and I'm doing okay, do you know what I mean? Like, just because you left it later doesn't mean you're too far behind. And it's really important. But as I said, if you're going to want to build your personal brand at uni and you want to kind of— you're that person that is really, you know, that entrepreneurial mindset and it's like, I want to go, go, go, do it. Like, it's completely okay. Um, I think as well there's a few reasons why people don't want to build personal brands. I think are really important to touch on, kind of break those myths around it. So like, one of them would always be, it's really cringy and my like friends are gonna think I'm really, really weird for posting online. Okay, yeah, maybe they will, but once again, if you've got that mindset, if you've got those goals, who cares? And as well You need to surround yourself, and I will take to my grave this is more important for your career than your personal brand or whatever, but your personal brand can help in this. The people who you surround yourself with will determine how you live your life, both from, you know, a career perspective to how much you network, how much you go to the gym, what food you eat. Everyone around you will determine kind of your personality and your trajectory. So if you're with people that are going to think it's super cringy, are they the people that are going to help you get to where you want to go? Probably not. And your personal brand can really help you find the people that are going to help you get there. Like, so many of my friends now I met through LinkedIn, and I'll like go stay in their family homes in like Scotland and like meet their parents and stuff. I've met them through LinkedIn. So that's the first thing. Then the second thing is I've got nothing to say. I think university students especially feel like this because like 'Well, what have I done? Like, I've not got a business, I've not been in the workplace for 10 years,' or whatever. It's super, super important to always think you know more than you one year ago. That's the first thing. Let's say you're a third-year student, you know more than second-year you. So you've got those experiences, you may have applied for some jobs and learned from that, whatever. But as well, you can start really small. I think there's a lot of confusion about what personal brand is. Like, 'Oh, I don't want to start my personal branding because I don't want to be a LinkedIn creator, LinkedIn influencer or whatever. That's not what it was, as I said, and that's why I said that context at the beginning. I got reached out to apply for a job because I had a well-optimized profile. You know, I had the COVID photo and a good headline and about section of my experience in that, and I did a few posts here and there about my thoughts on marketing campaigns and the fact I've graduated. I've got friends as well, especially in more niche worlds, especially if there's like any engineers listening to this, things like that. I know so many engineers they did like 2 posts that got like recruiters offering them like dream jobs for like £50-60k a year. So I think it's really important if you are thinking of growing your brand at uni, those are 2 really big things to always keep in mind when you're going about it.

Yeah, I think from my experience having started to build whilst I was around my final year, I would say it's, it's not so much building that brand or that following, but university acts as like a mask for you to be able to try things and do things and not be expected to be like an expert at them initially, which is something that really helped me because, you know, the first episodes are at least sort of like comically bad in some ways. And, and yeah, it's just another, you know, business ventures or just posting on LinkedIn. And I think it's true who you surround yourself with. I mean, I think the other thing that's worth mentioning in that is that if you do, it just helps you know who your friends are better. Yeah, I mean, like, and like at UCL, I guess I was a bit more lucky that people are career-oriented and they get that you just got to do what you've got to do. It's not as easy at other universities but ultimately, like, lose— yeah, I always thought at school as well, it's like, you don't— the person who's gone to do nothing is never thought of as the cool person. So if you have to sacrifice being a loser for a year while you're at studies for the long-term gain, then I think it's worth it. Um, what do you, what do you actually think the word personal branding means then? Because I'm sure you've like thought about this a fair bit and And obviously, like, everyone knows how important branding is for just companies in general. So, like, what is the difference between personal branding and branding? Like, are there similarities?

Yeah, for sure. So personal branding, I always just define as that's your reputation, that's the world's outward perception of you. And that outward perception is really important because who you are can be quite different to that perception, and you want those two things to align. And it's the same when it comes to to businesses and their branding. Like, if you're a brand that is championing sustainability, for example, but in reality you're not sustainable, those two things aren't going to align and you're not going to really get anywhere if it's performative. And that same kind of logic goes to your personal brand as well. So for example, let's say you want to be super charismatic on Instagram, like you're really, really shy and you're gonna like write in a way that's not you. As soon as you ever get to the next step, when you meet someone or whatever, it's just not going to align. If you go for a job interview, if you go for whatever, and they don't— those two things don't align, it's not going to work. On the other side, personal branding is also really good because let's say you are super like— you're talented and smart and so ambitious and can talk to everyone, but you've not got a personal brand. Who cares about any of these skills? Because if no one knows it, you're still not going to get anywhere. So that's really important, and those two things kind of go back and forth with branding. Like, if a business is incredible— and we have that a lot because we have at our agency— so I work at Personal Branding Agency where we do personal brands for clients, and so they'll come to us and they've got these amazing stories or this amazing brand, like their own company that they've built, it's incredible and like changing the industry. If no one knows about it, they're probably not going to be successful because it's not always who is the best, but it's who is known the best. And you'll see people get really angry about this, like, oh, why is that, like, company or person, like, why are they getting all this stuff but, like, they don't do as good work as us? Well, if no one knows about your work, then, like, how are they meant to choose you? And it's the same kind of principles apply if you're a student looking for a job or you're maybe wanting to start your own business. You've got to have that personality come out. And it's the same as well if you're thinking about starting a business, if you have that entrepreneurial mindset, like, you need that business, this story, mission, you, the work you want to do to be well known as well. Um, but yeah, it's just your outward perception. The difference is literally basically personal branding is marketing for people, not businesses.

So companies have started, you know, or a company live and dies by the sword of almost the brand and founder they're attached to, right? Which has its like perks and benefits. If you say like, for example, a startup like Richard Branson with Virgin, like he's synonymous. When you think of Virgin, you think of Richard Branson. I mean, maybe for yourself, of your, your side projects, but also your founder at your job, how important do you think it is for them to like really care, like know exactly what they're saying when they put it out. Because obviously what your company does is take founders with cool stories, right? And you actually make it into something exciting and digestible to— because there are so many, it's hilarious when you think like the biggest company in the world, you look at the founder, they've got like 2,000 followers and they'll like repost like random stuff, but you're like, your company could grow so much more. So Yeah, what is it exactly that your company is doing and why is it so important for that founder to have that authentic voice?

Yeah, so I think, as you said there at the end, authentic is so crucial. And it's kind of, I feel like people think it's a bit of a juxtaposition or a contradiction of what we're doing, where it's like authentic, but they're not the ones necessarily writing it. Quite frankly, founders are very, very busy, so we have to almost like artificially recreate that authenticity. Specificity. And the way we do about that is very much going down that mission and goal kind of direction. So getting very, very clear both on what they want to achieve as a business. So whether it's, I want to get leads to my business, I just want to grow brand awareness and like reach out to more people, I want to go to networking events, whatever. That's one thing. And that's really, really important as well to know because this isn't just for founders. But let's say you're posting as a student, you need to know, I'm doing this to get a job, I'm doing this to connect with more people, because that gives you that kind of greater plan, understanding of what sort of content you'd be putting out. That's the selfish reason why you're growing your personal brand, and it is important to know that selfish is not bad. Selfish is just looking in at yourself. What you also need to look at is your unselfish reasons, your mission. For example, the reason why I post online, the selfish reason, is because because I want to kind of grow my network, I want to have future career opportunities, I want to appear on podcasts and panels and stuff like that. I really enjoy all of that. My unselfish reason why I post and the mission behind my content is breaking down kind of stereotypes or ideals about the world of work. You don't have to be a corporate male in a suit in London to be able to get somewhere. You don't have to be a nepotism baby and have like your parents with a bunch of connections. You're allowed to create a career of your dreams even if, you know, you're from a small town or you have anxiety or, you know what, you're a person. Like, we're not all just robot employees, we're all people, and let's talk about it. The fact that I have that mission, one, creates a direction for all of my content. If your content— this goes the same for any marketing— if your content is you talk about one topic one day and a completely different topic the the next day, it's completely all over the place, no one's going to follow along because no one knows what you stand for and no one knows what they're going to get when they start looking at your content. A big kind of fear or a bit of a kind of question we get from our clients a few months in is, "Oh, I feel like we're talking about the same thing all the time." Your reputation comes through repetition, so the more you speak on a topic, the more you speak on a mission, one, it becomes a lot less performative. Let's say you spoke about sustainability or diversity or whatever once. Okay, do you actually really mean it? Is that actually something you're actually really passionate about? And is that a crucial core value of your brand? Those values are so important, especially when we're looking at kind of the trends within Gen Z, millennials. They do look at brand values when they're trying to look at what brand they're going to buy from. That is a really big contributing facts like, are they sustainable? Are they diverse? Like, if we even look recently, the Victoria's Secret fashion show, which was mixed opinions on the actual execution behind the idea of it— Victoria's Secret had to cancel fashion show years, like, a few years ago because they didn't have that diversity, and that's what people wanted to see. So it's really, really important to have that mission, both because then you become authentic and you actually stand for something but as well, then people can actually recognize you. You're known for something because you're never gonna sell anything, get asked to do grand podcasts or, you know, panels or keynotes or whatever if you don't actually have something that you're actually focused on, that you're knowledgeable on, and you can be known for.

So it's really important to have your why locked down, so why you're doing it. And I mean, if you take myself as an example, right, so I mean, I've always sort of when I first started, tried to stick to the fact that I can only really speak on my own experience, in that like I can only really help people who, you know, have been in my own situation. But then as I like started putting out content, obviously the nature of podcasts is that, and it being quite an eclectic mixture of guests, is that you are getting more diverse range of people consuming the content. And, and like we've had a lot of buy-in from, say, international students, and I wonder if we then place that onto your company, you're going to be speaking on behalf of somebody that you don't— you haven't lived their experience. So giving them that authentic voice and properly understanding, like, who's the audience, why are they allowed to say this, and how do they then say it in the most impactful and meaningful way? How are you managing that in general?

Yeah, so we always say this to our clients, it is collaborative. And it's just kind of hard because a lot of clients will come to us because they don't have the time to write their password and all that kind of stuff, and that is very much fair enough, and we're not expecting you to do the same amount of time as if you were writing 5 posts a week and then doing the engagement and posting it and looking through your DMs. But what's really, really important is we have a really strong back and forth communication and that we have a story. So like, our onboarding process is pretty in-depth. So like, the first call is like an hour-long kickoff call where we get their backstories, their opinions on stuff, all that kind of thing. And we can really build out a big positioning deck that's like 30 pages long. It's all to do with their personality and what their mission is and all those different things. But it doesn't stop there. Like every single post has some sort of their story in it. And as well, you know, the more we speak to them, like we're speaking to someone like an hour every other week on a call and then being on WhatsApp as well. We do start to learn their stories and we know their opinions. Like, I'll have a client and I know their opinion on mental health or diversity or anything like that, and if they need to like comment on their behalf or write a post on that, I know their thought process. But at the same time, it doesn't need to be collaborative. I need to sit there and say, you know, I want to do a post on this, this is my ideas, but what's your opinion exactly on this? We can really frame it correctly as well. Even the way it's written, like, we It takes a bit of practice, but you start to like pick up what clients say. Inserting words, a really important thing about your personal brand, and it just depends. Like, let's say you want to, you know, be a really corporate audit. Okay, you might want to talk a bit more formal on LinkedIn, but a really great thing about personal branding is you can actually be quite colloquial. So for example, we had a client before and she was from Scotland, and she always used to say wee, as in like little, like a wee bit, whatever. And I read occasionally, not all the time, not overkill, but occasionally put that sort of thing into their content, and it just creates— it just makes it human. And that's really important both for our clients, for anyone listening to this, when you're thinking about your personal brand. The reason why personal branding is really powerful and impactful is because it humanizes someone, and you're no longer, you know, a black and white CV that doesn't have a face. You're a person with experiences and ambitions and emotions, or you're a business owner that actually has, you know, 10 years of experience, I've done XYZ and I can show all of this, but I'm also human and you can talk to me, you can reach out to me whether you're a client or, you know, if you're a job seeker and you want someone to reach out to you. The whole point is you humanize yourself, and that is what personal branding— that's the advantage of personal branding over like brand brand, like brand brand don't make sense. Um, and so you've got to think about that for yourself, but we also do that for our clients of like adding in these colloquial phrases, adding in their stories, adding in their experiences, because that's what makes it theirs.

One thing I've always said is in terms of regarding like how I want to be known, or like, is that I would hate to be like Love Island famous or anything like that. I, I want to be like known for having done something cool, especially like you walked into a room. I wouldn't want to walk down a street and people recognize you or whatever, and not that that's a problem right now at all, but, um, yeah, I wonder with, with yourself, I mean, you're obviously doing it when you mentioned earlier, like, selfishly for your own career and whatever in that regard, but you do have a big following now, and I've seen you, you've taken breaks from posting on LinkedIn at times, and you must get like quite daunted by the fact that a lot of it you're posting about your actual self, like your life, you're bringing real life experiences and sharing that with a lot of people that you don't know, who are going to know more about you than probably you even realize when you go into a conversation with someone. So tell me about that whole, like, period that you took off, and even now that you're writing on behalf of other people, is that almost like refreshing for you?

Yeah, so from my own kind of experiences Once again, that is— there's like two ways to it. Part of it, it's kind of easier posting online about my story and stuff. Yeah, I'm a chronic oversharer. Like, I will talk to anyone. I will have like me 5 minutes and you'll know my whole life story. And that's really important to frame my personal brand. I am relatively vulnerable on there, but I'm relatively vulnerable in real life. And people think to build your personal brand you have to, you know, share everything. You don't. As you said, you want to be known for something. And let's say you want to be known for starting a podcast, you can talk about that podcast and the kind of how growing that's gone. You don't have to be super, super vulnerable, right? For me, I like that because that's me. At the same time, I sometimes forget how many people are kind of watching it. I was at, um, a Harry Styles concert like last summer, and there was like 70,000 seats in the arena. I was like, that's like the amount of followers I have on LinkedIn. And obviously they're not all active followers, and they're not, you know, X, Y, and Z, but it is that moment of realization like actually visualizing it is quite terrifying. And I actually find it harder now than when I started because like— and that's also why I kind of take breaks because I get quite scared posting. And I almost feel kind of weird saying that because I'm meant to be the one that's being like, "No, post, it's amazing, like you can do anything." You can and you should be posting, but I think people think the more you post, the more followers you get, the easier it gets. But sometimes it can actually be harder because and it sounds silly, but you do think, oh, what if this post doesn't perform? Because if it doesn't perform, I've got a lot of people that know it hasn't performed. Whereas like, let's say you had 1,000 followers and you get a post with 3 likes, you know, it doesn't feel as much stake in it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think also the other fear factor is it's not like being TikTok famous or Twitter famous where you don't know the accounts that are following. Yeah, you can actually go on every single one who follows and see who that person is that's looking at you or interacting with you. Yeah, I mean, it must just, it must have been just a really sort of weird journey actually getting to that following and actually like observing that shift in your own brain when you actually come to what you share, how you share it, when you share it. What would be your advice to someone who's currently just starting that journey in terms of like actually dealing with the the more mental side of it. Yeah, yeah, like, you know, treating yourself nicely throughout the whole process and making sure you don't burn out or, you know, ruin— damage your mental health.

Yeah, for sure. I think this goes back to the beginning, surrounding yourself with the right people. I did a post about this a while back actually, and one of the reasons why I do feel like this year I've slowed down in posting is because I'm not as heavily surrounded by people who are. So previously there was a guy in my company who's now gone off to start his own incredible. And we would like— if I didn't post, you'd be like, where's your post this morning? In like a nice way, but I had that accountability. Or last year I was going to a lot more networking events with other LinkedIn careers and stuff like that. And making it feel more tangible, having real people in your real life who care about whether you're posting or not, actually really does help keeping up, keep you going. Um, and as well, you can actually have conversations. As you said, like, if there is a bit of a mental drop strain. Like, I don't want anyone to be scared of getting hate comments because like they're not that common, they really are not. But sometimes you do get them, especially like I always say, if I get a post over 4,000 reactions, there is going to be hate on that. Um, there's been two instances where I've had quite viral posts, and one of them was quite early on actually, like 2 or 3 months into posting, I got a post with 38,000 reactions. And then this January I got over 115,000 reactions. And like, yeah, oh, it's great because you like bump up 10,000 followers in like a week.

What does LinkedIn hate even look like though?

Because like, you know, the comment section is normally like, you're a lazy, horrible person and you deserve like nothing. Like, oh my God, the hate is like so brutal.

It's not something you're used to seeing on that app.

No, but one thing I have learned, like I said, I don't want anyone to be scatterpasting 'cause quite frankly, I could post a photo and a story of me helping a puppy and people would be like, "Where are the cats? Like, how dare you help puppies but not cats?" You know, like it's that whole, and there's a big like word on TikTok, like whataboutism. Like if the full story's not on here, you clearly haven't done anything else. For example, that first post I did was about moving home after uni and how like that wasn't originally the plan and now I'm living in my childhood bedroom. And you know, sometimes my mum comes in and is like, "Oh, can you go to the post office?" I'm literally working, like, no. And things like that. And there were people commenting like, oh, you're so ungrateful, this and the other. And I literally had to stop my mum from like commenting back to them because my mum was like, no, that you've done this all yourself. Like, my mum's like honestly my biggest supporter, and like she was getting so angry. And I think that's the thing, I feel like I've got quite a good mentality now. One, knowing if you do get hate, it's purely because you've hit a certain like number of reactions and the algorithm just putting out your content to people who don't know you, don't know your story, and also are not the kind of people you're trying to reach. But as well, I can guarantee it because I've done this a few times, if someone leaves a hate comment, if you click on their profile and click comments to see what other stuff they've done, every single comment they have ever left will be a hate comment, like on every single post. And it's just really important from like that mental point of view As you kind of saying earlier, people that don't achieve anything, that like someone doing better than you is not going to hate on you. If someone, you know, sees that you're working hard and like respects that, they're not going to hate on you. If you are going to get hate, or once again, whether it's online or people in your own life, it's not necessarily something you should care about. And a lot of the time is that whole negative bias. If let's say you have 5 friends 4 of which are so supportive, but one's like, "What you're doing is really cringy and awful." That one comment versus the 4 comments that are really, really great is going to feel really intense. So it's really important to have that kind of like strong mental kind of attitude and be very, very aware of actually what is going on when there is hate or there is negativity within your life when you post online.

So when you were at university, you were doing history and politics. I studied history, and I had a feeling when I was there studying history, like, I knew that it didn't translate into a career path. And what— even when I was there, like, the only thing that, like, sort of kept that, uh, kept me, like, worrying about my career and what I was going to do too much is that you could tangibly see how you were doing by your results and how you're ranking compared to other people and whatnot. But yourself, who, you know, you said you enjoyed university and that structure, and then you go into a job that's not, you know, got those traditional bonuses or, you know, this progression route through the company, for example. How do you actually recognize when you've done a good job, and, and how are you setting them yourself, or is the company setting up for you?

Yeah, that's actually a really interesting question. So I think everyone has, when they go into work, but it's especially intense when you work from home. And I've been— I'm very grateful, actually, the fact that I've been a people manager at a really young age. So I became head of social to a line manager at 21. And one of the biggest problems you face with new hires is that imposter syndrome and burnout. Because when you work from home, let's say you've had a bad day or you're struggling to write content, you'll suddenly be like, wow, I'm so stupid, I'm like awful, I can't do this job. Whereas if you're in an office, you would probably just get on with it. Like, you probably would still have those imposter syndromes, but it is so emphasized when you work from home. So I definitely don't have the full answer. I'm still trying to figure it out. But a few things— one especially is harder. I'm very, very lucky once again where I feel like I can somewhat influence the culture of the company. So like, going out of my way to tell people they've done a really good job, and it also then, because you create that culture, it kind of comes back as well. You'll get messages like, oh good, thank you so much for today. And you'll have that moment like, okay, actually I know what I'm doing, and like, that's okay. I've also— yes, like within our company and law companies, we do have obviously— all right, a post. For example, I wrote a post for a client today and it did really well. I was like, oh good, I still have it. Because I like don't write posts all the time, and that's no longer my job. So like you can see the numbers, or like we get bonuses based on certain things like if we we upsell to a client. So you can see it in that sense, but I've had a lot of talks with my advisor about it. So luckily, once again, we've got an advisor. Our company's external. He like comes to speak to the senior leadership team about leadership, basically. And that is the kind of biggest thing that I've struggled with throughout my career, is that fear that I'm not good enough. And the most important things is one, you can like, and I've tried doing this, is like creating a board and you like put in all your like good results or like a really great comment from someone. But as well, once again, it kind of goes— it's the same sort of like mentality with those negative comments online where it's just understanding what's going on. Like, I have imposter syndrome because I am, um, out of my comfort zone and I'm growing and I'm doing some— if I was amazing at this all the time, I would need to do something else because I'm clearly not learning still. So I think Yes, like, creating a culture where you like, people are positive to each other and like writing down when you're doing really good things. But also, if you are struggling, that's a good thing, because if you weren't, then you're not growing.

One thing that's interesting about your career, having spoken a bit now, is that although you've had the post-personal branding success, there were things you did between graduating and actually starting to build your personal brand that made you stand out and actually like translated into employability and job success. So let's speak about those a little bit more. One of them was making your CV stand out, right, and actually getting it through more like authentic, less like online, LinkedIn, traditional sense. So talk me through that process of like, well, going from, okay, maybe I've applied to one or two things, I didn't get it, like, because it was just a normal CV to, okay, this is how I'm gonna make myself stand out.

So in kind of a weird way, because I didn't know what personal branding was then, the same principles applied to personal branding as a CV in the sense of I tried to make myself human. And that is such an underrated trait. For example, and this goes to everything, if you go to a job interview, I always— if I can make that job interviewer laugh at one point, I know I'm in. Kind of thing. Like, I remember even applying for my current job, and my CEO went to my university, and I was like, I'm gonna make a joke about Setiote, which was like the really gross place that all the students live, like the town. I was like, I'm gonna make a joke about that, I'm gonna be human. And it's the same that went for the CV. People applying for jobs— and it's been interesting as now being on the other side, so I've just done a hiring round at my company for some new content writers And what really makes people stand out and what people are looking for, what job like companies are looking for, is people that are passionate about their company and have that like almost ambitious drive. And that's the thing, I'm the biggest advocate for do your 9 to 5 and go home, or like your job does not have to be your life, it doesn't have to be your everything. And like even me, like I try and make a really conscious effort that my job is it's not my whole life. But at the same time, like, we want people that while they're on the job to be thinking about the next big thing. Like, the biggest thing for me is initiative. I don't care if you come and you don't have all the exact skills, but if you've got the initiative and you're willing to learn and take feedback, that's what I'm looking for. So thinking how we can show that within a job application is that kind of going above and beyond. So for example, for Pretty Little Marketer, which is like Instagram like she had— her Instagram was big back then as the main one, but I was a Facebook community manager. And so I created a creative CV that looked like the Facebook page, but instead of the post, it was the post in the pre-launch style, but they were my work experience and my education background and stuff. What I did with that is showed that I cared enough about the company that like I was gonna go above and beyond. I understood the kind of company enough to know like that was what I was going to be doing and the vibes of it. As well, I didn't have any real marketing experience back then, but I knew one of the job things would be kind of graphic design. Any graphic designers, like, Canva's not graphic design. Canva is not graphic design, but to the extent that I needed to do for this role, it was. And so showing I can use Canva and I can literally create the content you want to be producing already, and I show you that and that's taking that initiative and showing that passion, which is so important. And it's the same when it came for when I was applying for Vogue and Glamour. Within my, like, initial email, I, like, said, like, hi, their name, so it made it personal, spoke a little bit about myself. But one thing that I think is so important I included was the fact that I've been obsessed with Ugly Betty since I was 7 years old. Had that story, made me seem human, had a bit of, like, almost like humor into it and a bit different than if I was just like, I went to this university and I did X, Y, and Z. And as well, once again going back to the passion for the company, I included, I read this article recently, name of article by name of the writer of the article, and this is why I loved it, and this is how that relates to your mission and my mission. So one of them I think was about like Harvey Weinstein, for example, and like I was like, I really like love this article because I'm really into, you know, furthering women and women's rights and obviously against Harvey Weinstein, and I really love that that's what you do at your company as well. And showing that I've done that research and I've created that value, and that's all you have to be doing. Even if you are doing a black and white CV because it's that sort of company, it's a little bit more corporate, you can still think you can incorporate that stuff in your cover letter, or especially if you're into creative roles, how can you do your portfolio so it tells your story story, but as well brings in— it sounds silly, but the vibes of the company that you're going to.

Yeah, and at university, I think one thing that, that happens is you, you start comparing yourself with the people around you in terms of what they're applying to, the routes they took. Everyone talks about like, oh, I just applied to here. Okay, how did you apply to that? What did you like? Can I have a look at your CV? Blah blah blah. And I mean, certainly goes down with myself, so I don't exactly know, you know, the kind of careers that it normally fed into or anything, but for UCL it was mainly consulting, banking, and law. And nobody else was doing what I was doing, which is probably the most challenging part of it. And to be honest, like, nobody cared what I was doing for a very long time. And it wasn't until, you know, like, that consistency and that validation from some bigger businessmen, for example, that I was like, okay, I'm gonna go like really hone in on this being my route for now. You know, even with the applications to PwC, like they're not traditional ones to advise you, and there wouldn't have been many people to sort of speak to about like, oh, like, you know, I got this rejection, or I don't know what I'm doing. Like, so what would be your advice to somebody who is surrounded by people that are all kind of looking to go for the same thing, but you know in yourself that you want to do something different. How do you break that mold?

Um, yeah, for sure. And like, context as well, so just generally at the university, but even in like my close friends in my house, they were all engineers going into engineering, psychologists wanting to become psychologists, like therapists, and things like that. So they were all doing very, very different things to me in a similar way to you. I would say One, like, it's a lot easier said than done, but just having that really kind of inner self, that why, and, you know, actually thinking about, okay, long term, like, the people you're surrounded with right now, like, hopefully you'll stay friends with them, but their opinions right now aren't going to matter as much in 5 years where I want to be. So having that really strong kind of sense of self and sense of direction is really important. Important. But as well, as you said, oh, until I got validation from X, Y, and Z, like, some people will— some people will say, oh, you don't need validation, just look into yourself. Actually, that is important as well. So trying to put yourself out there so you can be in those positions where you can get that sort of help. So for example, doing internships, and then do really well in the internship, you're like, okay, that's another thing ticked off. Okay, I can do that. But as well, growing your personal brand, you will meet people in the industry you're trying to go into. So right now, so many of my friends are in marketing or business, like that is my like core friendship group at the moment. I would not have that without posting online or reaching out to them, and you do not need massive followings. If anything, what I would say is don't go like— obviously if that's when you really like to look up to that has loads of followers, drop them a message, you can ask them a question. What's going to be a better direction for you though is looking at people in a similar position as you So when I started, like, everyone be like, oh, a lot of my friends now all have like 50,000 followers. Yeah, they didn't when I started. I had 500 followers, some of them had 1,000. So I think Shoaib, who like I looked up to, then had like 4,000, and I thought he was like a celebrity through and through. And these are the people like that are just like a little bit ahead of you. Start reaching out to them, start conversations, because they're probably gonna have a lot more time to talk to you. But as well, we're in very much a loneliness epidemic right now. Like, no matter even if you're a consultant going in and there's a bunch of consultants around you, you're still going to feel really, really lonely. So finding those people that also are looking for that connection can really, really help drive you forward.

It's great advice. And I mentioned earlier on the answer that you're talking about where you want to be in how many years, and I don't know, you know, with your career so far, you know, for example, on New Year's Eve, getting that message to join a client company, there is that element of just go wherever orientation, but you must have like some idea of where you want to be in, you know, 3 to 5 years in terms of like maybe not the actual job role, but like what you want to have achieved in order to feel fulfilled. So yeah, what is that?

Yeah, very, very good question. Um, so in an ideal world, and this once again is going back to the roots of things, I originally wanted to be in the world of more fashion, like, whether it's fashion, jewelry, skincare, like that sort of more kind of feminine-driven industry would be a really big goal of mine. Definitely in-house as well. All of these things as well, what's been really, really great about joining a startup and joining as a number 3, like third person there, like my current boss knows all of this and is like, I'll help you to get there, which is really, really great. So I think sometimes while people, If you ask that question to some other people, they're like, oh, I will be at my company for the next 10 years. Like, my boss, he knows that I'm not, and that's kind of always been the case, which has been really nice to have that transparency. But yeah, definitely in-house, because as much as I love agency life, it's very fast-paced and you're doing stuff for everyone. I, I'm such a passion-driven person when it comes to everything, but especially my career. But I want to work at a company where I love that company. I want to live and breathe that company and all the marketing, all the strategy. I'm very much— I'm much more of a strategist than like a copywriter, graphic designer, that sort of thing. I like the big overarching stuff, so that'd be really important. So yeah, two kind of prongs, definitely in the more feminine industry just because that's just my personality and my sort of thing, but as well being at a company I love, passionate about, and doing like the overarching strategy.

Yeah, I think it's great that you said, uh, your boss has that attitude because I mean, building a team myself now, uh, you know, being with Gradified Awards here, I think probably one of the most validating things of you doing something right as a founder or a boss is that you are getting like being that stopgap for that stepping stone someone to their dream career. I mean, it's no disrespect to your company if they move on and just it just shows that your company's growing, right? And my final question to you, you've been great today, and yeah, a lot of invaluable, very authentic advice. I ask all my guests this: what is your definition of success? Because I imagine when you first graduated from Birmingham, you would have had a certain idea, be it monetary or whatever, of what a successful career would have looked like to you. You know, a couple years on, What does that look like to you?

Yeah, so kind of going off that, when I graduated it was very much linear progression, grad scheme to like massive companies, and that's by no means success now. I think it's also really important for success— it's very different to everyone— and understanding your drivers. I obviously, as everyone does, want enough money to look comfy, have a nice house or whatever, go on a holiday. I'm not driven by money. That is not my definition of success. Being a millionaire and retiring at 30 is not like my idea of success. If that happens, I won't complain, but it's not success to me. To me, it's living a life and having a job and just having the lifestyle surrounding that job and everything where I feel passionate and excited, and I'm surrounded by people who are also passionate and excited. I'm waking up on a Monday morning, be like, I'm so— I'm not scared to take on the week, I'm excited to take on the week. And as I said before, it's just purely having that driving factor and that kind of purpose that is, I'm really excited.

Izzy, you've been great. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me.