James Campion, Founder @ Staxy

So James, if you could just introduce yourself, tell me a bit about the startup you've co-founded and your role within it.

Sure, yeah, so hi, anyone listening. I'm James, 24 years old, about to be 25 in December, which is pretty scary. That's come around pretty quick. I think it was about when I was 22, I was like, oh shit, life is getting quite real now. Like, 22, I graduated in 2020 from Exeter University. Down south in the middle of the pandemic. So I graduated just as it was beginning. So that was the year when it was all going crazy, if people remember now. So graduated into the pandemic and it was a bit of a crazy experience, obviously for different age groups, different people had different experiences. Mine was graduating into it, jobs were going crazy, people weren't sure if they could get any, people were starting to get laid off from having a job for a year. And then, yeah, since then I haven't worked for a large corporate firm. I've been out in the startup world trying my— trying to be out there by myself and with other people in startups and making my way. I've now been in startups for about 2 and a half years. And yeah, I've worked across sort of 3 or 4 now. Currently working on one, as you mentioned, co-founded basically what started off as a student carpooling company, but has evolved into a sustainable mobility company, because essentially we looked at the UK and it doesn't take you long to realize that transport is pretty useless. We were in Exeter and like to get home, it was a nightmare.

Yeah.

Had to get like a 4-hour train journey that cost us like I think £80, maybe £50 if you booked it in advance with a rail card. And it was like, what the hell? How can we get home to see our family, our friends? And then we were like, well, everyone else has this problem, why don't we try and create something? So we started it up and yeah, been working on that full-time since 2021, basically.

Yeah, so obviously that's a great idea, I completely agree, just transport is a mess at the minute. Is it, you know, makes you so passionate about this company? What do you think makes it stand out?

Yeah, so for me, I had several goals that were probably like more lifelong goals. So the first one was financial security for myself and maybe for a family if there is someone that that would work with. Don't want to speak too soon. But then the other one was to then, if I can achieve that, then try and have as big an impact on the world as possible. I know this is going to be long-winded, but hopefully it makes sense. So for me, I was like, okay, I can join a movement like a Greenpeace organization or something like that, or I could potentially work my way up in a corporate world and try and become as high up as I could to have as big an impact as possible on the world this is, or I could maybe try and start a startup and do that. And while I was at uni, I thought this was a great, a solid idea that people have heard about carpooling, but in the UK it's just not a thing, and could could have a really good impact and it achieves my goal of trying to have a decent impact on the world whilst doing something I really enjoy. So hopefully that's answered your question.

Startups you've been part of, it wasn't your creation, you were working under someone and now it's you doing it, you're in control. Yeah. How does that differ? What have been the main differences, the challenges?

Yeah, so to give a bit of context, so In January of 2020, a very close friend of mine at university set up an instant delivery company called Fancy. And it's been a thing in America for a while. A company called GoPuff is sort of the main competitors that side of the world that started this up. And everyone's seen it now. It's sort of deliveries to your door in sort of 15, 30 minutes. Loads of students know about it because students like it. Yeah, they can get booze at 2 AM when they run out. I mean, that's pretty much it. Um, we started that in January 2020, and very quickly I was like, that's a great idea, can I get involved? Me and Arns knew each other very well. He co-founded it, um, they launched it, and then, um, very quickly I sort of joined that team, the core team, and worked pretty much with the founding team. I did, uh, launching all the northern cities and stuff like that. So just to get a bit of context for what was going on. That company was then acquired in February 2021. And then that's when I started Staxi, the company I— Differences, I think, yeah, massive. The main one is you, I think you are responsible to yourself. You know, you can have an investment board, you can have whatever, but at the end of the day, if you don't do the work, the shit hits the fan on you. Whereas if you're working for another company, even if there's one founder and you're the other employee, at the end of the day, you probably have a salary. And if it doesn't go that well, it's not the end of the world. Whereas now, if it doesn't work, I don't get paid. The company goes badly. I get a bad reputation. There's a lot of sort of onus on yourself.

A lot on the line.

A lot on the line. So I think that's probably the main difference. And then obviously, there's loads of other stuff like— You're running the company yourself, so you're creating the strategy, all the other stuff, all of the organization, the structure falls on your shoulders. I think a big one is putting the laptop away. I think in general, in startups, you can't do that. And you can't put your phone away. Like a 9-to-5 job, you can close your laptop relatively, and you can step away. And if the company falls behind tomorrow, it's not the end of the world. Whereas in a startup, as your company, you can't let that happen. Yeah. But more, my point being more so when you are the founder because the onus is more on you.

Yeah. So I want to talk more about the whole startup world.

Yeah.

But I want to focus in on something you mentioned just then about accountability and how, you know, you're accountable for yourself. And I think as a student, that's something that a lot of us struggle with is, you know, holding ourselves to account to work hard when you don't have those teachers or parents telling you, you know, telling you to do the work. And how did you find as a student, or just, you know, even working at home now, how do you hold yourself accountable to meet the goals throughout the day?

Yeah, I mean, student's difficult because I remember I studied economics and politics at Exeter and I didn't enjoy it. I really didn't enjoy it. Going into uni, I really didn't even want to go to uni. I was the first one out of my family ever to go to university. None of them went to university. They didn't really see the point. To some extent, and I could understand that. My granddad literally sat me down, he's more of an entrepreneur, he sat me down and went, "Don't go to university." And I went, "Okay, fair enough." The reason being, you know, they were like, "Do something yourself, like work out what life is more about." And fair enough. My point being, I found it very hard to hold myself accountable at university, particularly when I didn't know what I wanted to go into, motivation to pass exams, The only real motivation I had was I just knew I wanted to achieve as good a grade as possible. And I got competitive with that, because I'm a competitive guy. And that was probably about it. The other motivations, I didn't really have too many. I was like, I need to do well to then try and get a job that I don't know what I want to do yet, but I will need to get a job at some point. So doing well at uni will help me do that. And that was pretty much as far as I went with my thought process. Sure. What advice I would give to someone in that situation now looking back is, A, study something that you enjoy, and if you don't enjoy it, try and do stuff that you do enjoy. I know at my university there was optional modules you could take. Granted, they might not have been as easy, but you know, you could have learned a language for like 15 credits. I'm assuming similar structures at similar unis. Try and do stuff you enjoy. You know, if you're not getting on with your degree, you know, history, right? I know there's a lot of reading. And a lot of other stuff, and you might have to learn about some historical figure that you could not care less about, and that might be difficult, but if you balance that out with learning, I don't know, some sort of computer science in the background, and you're designing your own app, get involved with that more. But yeah, so study something you enjoy, 'cause if you enjoy it, naturally, you'll work harder at it. And then the other one, I think, is breaking it down into more achievable goals, so don't think too far in the future. If you're at university, Study hard to get a good degree. You need a 2:1 or above realistically. If you get a 2:2, it's not the end of the world. Some of my mates have got 2:2s or worse, and it's totally not the end of the world, but ideally, if you get a 2:1 or better, that's a good position to be in. And then even if you don't know what you want to do next, at least you've, you know, it shows to someone in the future you've gritted your teeth, you've worked hard, you can achieve a good grade, and you're relatively smart.

I do history, like you mentioned. And you did something that doesn't directly lead into what you want to do. So it's, you know, say you do medicine, you do law, it's, you're doing that and more than likely you'll want to do that as a career. How do you balance at university finding what you want to do in the future, you know, be it internships or just researching what you want to do with the actual degree you're doing, getting both done? Because I feel like most people find that a challenge.

Yeah, oh definitely, that is a challenge. I think the one thing I didn't appreciate at university that I was told when I was at university is the time you have. I had a lot of time and I did waste, not waste, 'cause I had a great time and that is not to be undervalued or understated, but there was definitely, I could have got a better balance of having a good time, sport as well, and doing some stuff in the right times to, you know, have a better chance of a better career or whatever. So for me, I managed to do a lot of things in my summers. So I managed to do, even if it's a weak experience, it's so worth doing. I've spoken to a lot of people, tried to help a lot of people post-university who've come out having not done anything in the summers. Maybe done some teaching tennis or working, that's a terrible example, but, you know, whatever their sport is or whatever, but they haven't done any career stuff or anything like that, and it's very difficult to then go, you know, whatever job you apply to, you need to show some form of skill or interest in something to be able to back yourself up, whereas if you haven't done a thing, it's very difficult. So try and do, even if it's a week or 2 weeks, I did, to give context, in my first year, I did a month at Deloitte in Switzerland in their consulting practice. And then in second year, I did 2 months there. And the third year, I graduated and did startups. And then in the mid— and I also did a couple of weeks at a private equity company. And I mean, I was very fortunate and worked hard for those things. But I'm not the smartest bloke. And I just worked really hard and managed to get those opportunities. And the earlier you can do that, the better. And even like, even yourself, like, you know, doing this as we sort of spoke about briefly is a great thing to be doing because at least you're doing something and you can talk about it and you can relate it to jobs and it's useful for yourself and for other people.

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It's like, be happy. You know, for me, that's pretty much the most important thing. If I had 30K, if I had money that I could get by on, and I was happy, with a happy family, that's what I want. And if I can then do other things in my spare time, or whatever I can, to do other things I want to achieve, that's it. And you know, if I can create that, for me, that's what I'm happy with. and it's taken me a while to come to that, and I think after accepting that, then I'm able to like progress as an individual, and I know, 'cause I struggle with putting too much pressure on myself, and going like, oh, I should be working here, or I see my friends on LinkedIn doing these cringey posts, and they're awful, no, no, they're fine, you know, you've got to do that.

You can say that.

You've got to do that, but you know, I look at that and I go, oh man, that, That's not me. But yeah, I mean, to answer your point, if I was squeezed for an answer on what places, I mean, like, tech is obviously a massive one. That's only going to play a bigger part in people's lives. So if you can get involved with anything like that, I personally like sustainability because that's going to be a big thing. You're going to need a planet to live on and have your family or whatever you want to do, you're going to need one. And it's topical and it's great, so that's a good one. But yeah, I would do what you're happy in, and it's taken, yeah, it took me a while to get there, but I think it's so important because if you're not happy doing what you're doing, you're going to be doing it for a long time, well, maybe not a long time, but you've got the life ahead of you, why would you not, don't waste a second not being loads really happy. And it's difficult because I'd like, put a pin in that and go, but then at the same time, you've got to weigh up risks and all the other things going on, and everyone has to deal with shit. Any good job, normally at the start, particularly when you graduate from university, you don't do the enjoyable things, and that's part of it, and it's a process, and okay, there are some people that can potentially live a really cool life from going out, but they're very few, and they're probably quite lucky. So yeah, I would say do what you really enjoy, and if you enjoy making money, go do what you what you want to do, investment banking or whatever it is. But if you enjoy, you know, doing other things and having more time to do other things, you know, do what you enjoy.

Yeah, definitely.

I don't know if that's helpful.

No, no, but yeah, of course it is. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting point to raise about putting pressure on yourself. I think everybody does that too much of that. And yeah, obviously, like you said, there's that fine line of like needing pressure to like make you proactive and yes, do things, but I think as a student right now, it's like finding that fine line. What are the habits that you think that keep you sane throughout? Like if you weren't doing them, you wouldn't be yourself.

Yes, yeah, no, exactly, and it's really difficult and it evolves as well over time, particularly when you can't work out your life when you're 20 or what, and I don't think you can work out your life when you're 80. I think it's an ongoing, that's a never-ending. Answer that you have to come to terms with and just be happy with and do the best you're doing. You say, for me, I think it's a really personal thing. I've chatted to a lot of friends in it, very aware of mental health now, particularly after going through the pandemic, graduating as a lot of graduates are now with social media and all the pressure that comes from like looking at Instagram, LinkedIn, all the rest of it. Yeah. So for me personally, It is probably some sort of sport, whatever that is, whether it's, a sport can be very, yoga, Pilates, football, rugby, anything, any sport. And for me, if I'm doing sport, my nutrition tends to be quite good because I tend to eat better 'cause I'm like, if I'm working out, I need to eat well. And both those things tend to, on a scientific level, keep your brain a lot happier and yourself a lot happier. I've become a lot more personally aware, self-aware about things that irritate me, things that I'm not happy about. So if I am working long hours consistently for weeks on end, I know that I can get grouchy and I need to have some sleep at some point. So I'm just more personally aware of like triggering signs that make me less happy and less productive. But again, that You need to work that out, and I'm still working it out for myself. But yeah, so for me, sport, which helps me with my nutrition, is a massive one. Family is a big one. You know, I enjoy, at the end of the day, I'm a massive people person, I love relationships, that's what I sort of feed off, so, you know, having trusted family members and friends, making the most of that, because that is life, and you're living it, and you enjoy that moment and live it. Being in that present. So really, making an effort, I had to make an effort because it wasn't obvious to me to do that more. Sport, personally, again, it's all very personal, but for me, I like team sport. I like being around other people, I bounce off them, I feed off that. I did find myself a bit isolated if I was doing more of an individual sport, tennis or whatever, but again, that's a very personal thing. Some people thrive off that and they really enjoy it. But for me, you know, sport, preferably in a team environment where I get this good social aspect that leads me to good nutrition, keeps me in a good headspace.

I think that raises a good point that I think a lot of students think about when they look at applications. You see a lot about, you know, the need for soft skills and the kind of person that they want to hire, not just, you know, what you've done in your career to help you get a job, your degree. What soft skills do you think, like, as a founder now and someone that might be bringing people into your team, what do you look for in a graduate?

So for me, I think it depends on the company you're going to apply for and work for. So if I was to take it for a startup, trust is pretty much my number one. That is evolving and very hot and very valuable. And then apart from that, you've got all the general characteristics that make really good employees or people that you like working with. I think you've got to like working with them. So they've got to be personable in some respect, depends what job, but in general, I'd say that. Driven, motivated, enthusiastic, all of those sort of things, you know, not worried about failure, because again, in the UK particularly, I think it's changing, but slowly, like people don't accept failure and they don't, you know, I was told once, like see failure as a building block to success. I mean, again, there's loads of cringy stuff out there, but I agree with that. I think the more I've actually come to terms with it, particularly as I'm a competitive person, I have to accept, like, okay, that didn't go so well. Let's just move on. Everyone does it. So yeah, that's from a startup perspective, but then other jobs, I think they like other skills. If you're in medicine, I'm sure those things overlay with a lot of them, but in medicine you need to be highly, probably career-driven to have the motivation to study really hard for a long time time. Time, I think there's small things that add up to a big difference. Being on time. Ironically, I was probably about an hour and a half late for this interview, so it's not great. But being on time is so important because you probably are thinking like, God, what a twat, he's an hour and a half late, I've been here. You know what I mean? If you're late, if you're 2 minutes late to a job interview, You know, I was 2 minutes late to a job interview once and my Wi-Fi cut out. I joined a call late. This happened actually in a partner interview I had. I was late firstly, so immediately I knew I was like, black mark, like one of the probably the biggest black marks. And then my Wi-Fi cut out and I had to call the partner instead of a video call, and she answered, and I could tell immediately from the tone of her voice going, 'Hi James, how are you doing?' And I was like, 'Yep, no, I'm not great actually, because I know I've just lost this job.' But my point, you know, I think being organised and doing the simple things that add up, you know, putting in the effort, organised with your time, organised with how you look, all those small little things add up. And you really, and like you talk about soft skills, those things that are obvious to people that have good soft skills, like yourself, but then to people that don't, it's like, oh, I didn't realise I should, dress smart or be in a room with good lighting, you know, simple things like that all add up, I think, are also very important.

I want to focus in again on what you were saying about failure and fear of failure, and I think that's such a topical and, you know, important point to focus in on because fear comes in a lot of ways as a student, you know, fear of like imposter syndrome, can I go into this office and be surrounded by these people that know what they're doing and try and do what they're doing and You know, for me, I find it quite a paralysing thing, and all you can really do is just try and do it, but career field, and you've done it time and time again, and how have you found that process? How have you not got an imposter syndrome?

Yeah, I think that happens to everyone. Like, you know, first day at university, I had it as well. I was like, oh man, am I studying the right thing? And then it carries on. For your life. Regarding imposter syndrome, how do I feel about it? Now I feel much happier with it. When I first experienced it, I had the same reaction to most people. It's like, oh man, I shouldn't be here, I'm way in over my head, way in over my depth, all the rest of it. Now I feel a lot more comfortable with it. I personally am really happy with it in terms of myself. I'm like, if I'm in that position, I am pushing myself and I can be proud of that. And that's sort of my response to it because if I'm out of my depth, nervous, or feel like I shouldn't be there, that's good in a way, you know, because that's what you're progressing yourself as a person, you're making the most of it, and you're giving it your best. So I feel like it's a really good thing to feel and everyone thinks it and feels it and maybe rightly so, but then do something about it. You know, if you've got imposter syndrome because you don't know what they're asking or something, well, you've got the capability to look it up. Internet's an amazing thing, you know, you can research it all. And also that, you know, that person might know more because they've been in there longer, but you can catch up if you work hard quite quickly. So yeah, I would say just appreciate, you know, take it on board. Okay, fair enough. Then dull it down until why am I feeling it? Is it because I don't know too much about the job? Normally people feel that, I think, when they're either a bit underprepared or if it's just the case that they are and they are inexperienced and they just need to become more experienced and need to get there.

I wanted to ask more about actually finding what you want to do. So you talked about the start-up, you gave context about how you joined the start-up because you believed in it and your friend was doing it.

Yep.

Before that, when you had no idea what you wanted to do, What kind of networking events were you going to to try and expand your horizon?

Yeah, that's a good question. I just tried to do, not really consciously, but I guess it must have been because something made me do it. I had very lucky, came from a good, my dad and mum were very helpful going like, you know, get yourself out there. Like I mentioned to you earlier, they came from an entrepreneurial background, first ones to university, so they were like, go do other stuff. Whether that's in sport or whatever, they just said, do other things so you can learn about them. So I guess I didn't think about it consciously, but I did do a lot of it. So naturally for me, I was lucky where I am able to communicate with a lot of, you know, network well and do that thing. So that sort of stuff came more easier, easily to me, so I did that, and not knowingly, but that's a massive thing that's very helpful. And then I started to apply for jobs, because I was like, actually, I'm going to have to get one at some point. What sort of one am I going to get? I don't know, but I might as well do something. And even if it's something I don't want to do, at least I've ticked it off and gone, I've joined and that's not for me, you know, and I've done that, and okay, it's very mathematical and it doesn't play up to my skill set. So yeah, I just tried to jump into as many things as possible, particularly through university when you've got the time, even if I wasn't sure about it, because you can't be too sure. You need to accept, a big thing is acceptance, you need to accept that you're never going to know the answers, particularly when you're young. I don't know any, or many, I've only worked out like some, and there's still probably those answers probably wrong, I'll probably look back in 60 years and go, what was I thinking? But you've got to try it, and then you'll really start to go, okay, well, I know that, this is new, learnt from that, can move on, and then all of a sudden you'll have done different things and you look back and you go, okay, now I know sort of a general idea of what I might want to do. And you might not get there till you're 40. I mean, one really helpful guy I spoke to had an amazing career and he went from being a professional tennis player out of university to then becoming a barrister when he was like 30 or 35, and then he wasn't sure about that, and then he became head of a big bank or whatever, and he was just explaining to me, you'll find what you might like to do. He started a job he liked when he was like 40 or 50. And I thought that, I really liked that, and it made me again take the pressure off, and I was like, actually you're right. I might not work out what I want to do until I'm older, but that's okay. We're all in that boat and at least I'm trying and hopefully get there earlier.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so interesting for people like me and you, we've already touched on our degrees maybe not leading into something necessarily and I don't know if you had the same feeling but it doesn't feel like a— if it's not coming to you naturally as a talent you think, 'Oh, maybe I should give that up,' and, you know, 'Maybe this isn't the career for me,' but then without maybe actually looking into what you can do with, you know, say you're doing a degree, you don't like it, but you might like elements within it.

Yeah.

You know, how do you sort of latch on to those things you like within it and try and make that into a career? Because it does exist out there. Yeah. But it's just hard to find.

Oh, that's such a good point. I was chatting with someone the other day who's got a young daughter and she's got a young daughter and she is like 5 and she's studying maths. And she in her maths class apparently has a teacher that when she doesn't get the answer right, the teacher raises her voice. Small thing. And then doesn't get it right again, raises her voice again. And then the teacher eventually loses her patience and goes, "Well, the answer's 30." And the kid now goes, "Oh yeah, I understand that." The kid's now going, she wants to say, I understand it, so the teacher doesn't keep shouting at her. But now the kid thinks she's internally, she's going, I'm terrible at mathematics and I'm never going to do that again. And she might actually work out to be quite good at mathematics. But obviously from a young age, she's going, this teacher's shouting at me, I'm not getting it right. Reverse, reverse. Not going to have anything to do with it. But extrapolate that out, you get a similar point to what you're saying is like your influences, particularly when you're younger. I had a really good chemistry teacher. So I took chemistry at A-level and nearly did it at university, just because I had a good teacher. I think every student can relate to that. You probably had a really good history teacher, because you study history. But I think you can extrapolate that out and yeah, I think that goes to show you've just got to throw yourself into things that you might be uncomfortable with. I think the military is a really good place to look at because they live and breathe that stuff, you know, sort of like you were saying about imposter syndrome. Feel good about it. Same with failure, you've got to feel good about it. No point, no time, life feels so preachy. I feel, in my opinion, life's too short to dwell on that stuff. You've got to just move on and it's easy to say, really easy to say, and a lot harder to do. But same with the careers and like, sorry, to your point, you know, how you get involved with those small things, you've just got to throw yourself into things if you're uncomfortable, feel good about yourself. You might suddenly turn around and go, actually, I didn't want to take that jump, I did, and now I've landed.

I just want to go back to what you were saying about joining a startup at university. You were at university, right? Yeah. In the middle of your degree. Yeah. And obviously we've talked about that sort of time management aspect and finding time to do things like that. I can speak for myself, I've done, I've tried to start up with my friends and I did Kickstart Global and Barclays Accelerator Eagle Banks, and even though nothing came of those experiences, I found it very rewarding. It taught me, you know, a lot of things about startups that if I don't use it again, I know it now. And definitely, I think obviously at university, getting those skills, even though it may not lead to what you want to do, is very important. What are some experiences that you did while at university, be it societies or accelerators or anything you did that was very formative to who you are now and where you are in your career?

Yeah, so, yeah, really good. I was very fortunate, sometimes just getting lucky and ending up in a really cool place, and then sometimes working really hard and getting there. In my first year before university, I managed to get a job in India as a safari guide because I really love nature, still do, hence sustainability, and when I was, I planned my year off, which was again, a bit lucky, 'cause I was like, I wanna have a year off before university, 'cause people had told me to do it, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it. And so I managed to have a bit of time to plan, which was again fortunate, and so I applied for these jobs, applied to become a safari guide in India, and got a job there for 3 months. So I flew out to India, the flight was paid for, but then all the things while I worked there, I worked for free, so I worked for my money, no, I worked, sorry, I worked for my for bed and for food and for the experience, and I was so okay with that when I was 18. So I worked out there for 3 months doing anti-tiger poaching, anti-pangolin poaching, all these crazy things, working, but then I look back now, I'm like, A, I had an amazing time, B, I ended up managing a team of different cultures in India, learning about their culture, their religion, all these other amazing things, and I just did not appreciate it at the time, got a bit fortunate, and especially at that time, wasn't thinking about it, I was just like, love nature, want to go out there, want to become a safari guide, and it was bloody epic. But I look back and I'm going, that is so cool, and very fortunate to be able to have done that, but it's possible, you know, I just wanted to do that, and it's very rogue, but managed to do it. And then after that, I was like, I also want to try and, and work in a corporate job. So after I did 3 months in India, I then got a flight from India to Zurich, and I worked in consulting for a month. And I went from one extreme culture to a completely different, and I learned so much, both in jobs, about myself, all the other things. So yeah, there's some experiences, and then, I mean, Even small things like I worked, I did D of E at school that I was sort of coerced into doing, I think. Did you do D of E? I did, yeah, I did. And I mean, no offense to our school, but they shoved it down our throat, like, you should definitely do this. Didn't help me at all in terms of getting into university, I don't know about your university, but that's the way they pitched it to me. But having said that, I loved it because I like the outdoors, and one thing, a part of the Gold D of E, I had to do volunteering. And I volunteered at a local shop and I had to get up at 5 AM every Saturday before sport, because I played sport on a Saturday. And I volunteered there and I worked there for 2 hours. And it was my local shop, dealt with elderly people, and I ran the till and helped set up the systems. I look back at that and I'm like, I did 3 months or however long you have to, probably, I think it's longer than that, isn't it? 6 months or something?

Yeah, something like that.

Something ridiculous. Yeah, I planted trees for 6 months. That normally no one says they, normally they just get someone to sign it off anyway. Yeah. Anyway, for some reason or other, I did that for 6 months. But I look back, I loved it. And again, something I didn't really want to do. The first time I went, my mum was the one who forced me. She was like, no, you've signed up for Gold Divot, you're doing the volunteering. And I was like, mum, I'm not doing the volunteering, but I ended up doing it. I look back and I'm like, that was awesome. I didn't appreciate it at the time, but I learned a load of stuff, worked out a load of microeconomics that now I'm thankful for, but at the time just took for granted. Yeah, so I hopefully I've got to a decent point that, you know, I just— my point was I threw myself into a load of random things that I wasn't sure I'd enjoy. Some of them I was hopeful I would. Yeah. And they've all been very helpful in me enjoying my life, number one, and secondly, helping me lead to good experiences that I can use in the real world.

I'm not sure you'd say, you know, self-admittedly, but you, from what I've seen, have always being perceived as successful by others, you know, head boy at school, ex-university, you know, startups, whatever. But that's other people's perception. Obviously, we have our own self-perception of what success is to us, and that's really what's more important, I think. And I was wondering how much you think your idea of what being successful has changed from even school through university to now, and what those facts are that make you successful?

Oh, that's an interesting one. At school, if I'm honest, I never really thought about success that much. I just thought about living in the present. I just was, up until probably my 20s, very easygoing guy. I was very competitive, so when I wanted to try and do something, that was it. I didn't really think about too much else. I was just like, right, I'm going to go do that now. Probably at the time, trying to get into a university and ideally a good one, but I really didn't like studying that much, which really didn't help me get into a good university. So I dragged my feet about that, but then I threw myself into things I did enjoy at school. So like I enjoy trying to help other people and I enjoy trying to make some sort of difference. So like you say, when I apply for those roles, that was the reason I did it, nothing else. I was just like, I would love, when I was younger, I looked up to those sort of people and I was like, "Ah, they're cool people, I really want to try and be similar," or whatever. And I thought, actually, if I could do that, that would be great. And that was pretty much the extent of my thinking. Then at university, it was, I need to try and get a good degree. Didn't really think much further than that because I wasn't a massive fan of my degree, and I was like, okay, I'm not a massive fan of it. I'm having a great time though, which I loved. I had a great time at university and made the most of that, but at the same time I was like, I need to get at least a 2:1 or better, ideally better if I can. And that was that. And then, but throughout, when I thought about success, I think I mentioned it earlier, I really wanted to try and be at some point in my life financially independent for myself and family. And then to try and have a big impact on the world. And I kept that like right at the back of my head and accepted that I might not be able to achieve that tomorrow, 'cause you need to get there. But that was just, that was like in the back of my mind, I was accepted that, okay, all this stuff I'm doing hopefully will lead me along that sort of path. And then obviously post-university success for me now is like the same. It's trying to have an impact whilst being financially independent and trying to somehow carve out a reasonable career so that I can continue to do that.

What's very interesting to me is that, well, I guess maybe you build perceptions of people, whatever, but you're just very relatable to me because I'm the exact same personality type with the exact same outlook on work and how it would never be my first thought in the day to wake up and go to the library, but it's like, oh yeah, you've just gotta do it because you're very, it's like battling all those inner voices where you're like, okay, I'm really hard on myself for being, wanting to be successful in my own right, but then I also really like socialising and I also really like doing sport and it's just like, there's so many things to balance and the fact that you are actually like internally happy while also displaying all these like incredible, you know, roles and you know, jobs, and I think that's a refreshing thing for people to hear because a lot of people probably build it in their head, I've got to slave labour myself to sort of get to this point or this career path, where that isn't necessarily the case. You don't have to be in a library all day, hating yourself.

Not at all.

Yeah.

No, not at all. I mean, like, I look at my sister, for example. She works now at GQ. But I mean, she went to— she hated school and hated university. She ended up at an art college and then ended up studying in London and really didn't like it. And she hated university throughout. I hope she doesn't mind me saying that. And then— but now— but then she started doing stuff she liked on the side. She worked her arse off at Costa doing the awful, like 2 AM to 6 AM or whatever, shifts that you don't think exist but exist. And then she slowly started building up, doing things she liked, and then she, and then she started working for a company she really enjoyed. And like, now she loves her, really enjoys her life, and she's always been very stylish and creative, and now she's in that perfect industry. Um, but like, it's an example of, you know, she, she had no idea what she wanted to do and but just started doing her own thing that made her happy. Was not in it for the money, and now she's got a really cool job, and that monetary success has followed but was definitely not initial. And she was very happy on a reasonable salary, but obviously because she was happy, she worked really hard, enjoyed her life, yeah, and now reaping the benefits.

Yeah, I think it's important for people to hear that because obviously I think everybody knows it, they— everyone gets told time and time again, you know, don't think about the money when you go for a job and just do what makes you happy, and Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, sure, you know, but then energy prices and whatever reason will make you sort of anxious about needing to make money. Yeah, but it always is, it always is the case that, yeah, people passionate do well.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think a lot of what you said today has been really helpful. And, you know, not everyone's going to find their passion in the same way, but the way you've done it is very relatable. And personal to you, and you know, I think that'll help out a lot of people. So epic. Yeah, just thank you for everything you said today.

Not at all, mate. No, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's been great, and cheers.

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, cheers, mate.