James Collier, Co-Founder @ Huel

James, welcome to the podcast.

Good to be here.

If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your career so far.

My career so far, well, I graduated in the '90s, a long time ago, from the University of Surrey in nutrition and dietetics, and then I worked in the NHS as a clinical dietitian for several years over various hospitals where I got really good experience both from outpatients and inpatients. But I kind of, my leaning was more towards enteral feeding, you know, tube feeding where people have nasogastric tubes or tubes into their stomach. And I used to look after everyone at home in Northamptonshire who was on one of these tube systems. But there was a range of other things as well. Then I, but I knew the NHS wasn't for me long term. I didn't want to be a clinician for the rest of my life, even before I even started. But I knew it would be invaluable experience for what, what would come later, which the next stage I wanted it to be in the fitness and bodybuilding world. I was training myself and so of course want a career in, in what you're going to enjoy and what your passion is. So I started in, in 2000, I co-started a web forum called muscletalk.co.uk, which was really popular at the time. And we called it at the right time. This is way before social media was a thing and when forums were starting to be up and coming and And it did really well for quite a few years. I say really well, um, not as well as one of my later ventures, but it's, um, we called it the right time. And me and my business partner, we had a healthy monthly income from it. But at the same time as doing that, I was freelance nutritionist, um, seeing, taking any sort of work that I could. This was, I think, '99 I started. That was, there was an overlap while I was with the NHS. And I eventually left the NHS in 2002 completely. I went from full-time down to part-time, and the— I did combination between MuscleTalk and my freelance work. But in the freelance work, I would take seeing clients face to face with nutrition advice. I do a lot of writing. I did seminars, public speaking, and also I did quite a bit of work with care homes reviewing their menus, mostly for elderly but, or the infirm, or anything like that. And it ticked along. Because I live in rural Northamptonshire, never got a lot of work from that, so I was relying mainly on MuscleTalk. And then that, that evolved into doing other things in the bodybuilding and fitness world, including putting on events and shows. And here now we're, you know, we're fast forwarding to, um, sort of 2012, 2014. And but my consultancy was always always existed. And then I, I take on any projects, like I've said. And I got an email in 2014 from a guy called Julian Hearn who had this great idea for this product, this nutritionally complete product that he wanted to do, and he wanted a nutritionist to work with him. Um, and so for the next year we sort of worked together. It started as a one-off project, and the next year we worked together. And in June 2015, we launched what is Now, Huel.

Yeah, and with Huel, what was the actual first product? Because if you look at it now, it's a whole host of things, but it's a drink, like easy to consume, nutritious is what I see it as. What did it actually begin as?

So, quite right, we've got loads of products now. The Huel range includes the powdered product, the ready-to-drink, which you can see here. We've, we've got a protein powder called Complete Protein, um, the Hot and Savory range, which are grain-based or pasta-based nutritionally complete foods that you mix with hot water and leave for a little bit and then eat with a spoon. And then some newer products as well, like we've recently launched a Daily A to Z. But the original product is the white pouch powder, which we're now on version 3.1, but we were launched obviously on 1.0. And it's more or less the same as that since then. The key ingredients were oats, milled flaxseed, pea protein, brown rice protein, MCTs from coconut and sunflower oil powder, and topped up with a vitamin mineral blend. It changed, especially the first 2 or 3 years. We felt we could improve it quite quickly as finances got better, and we felt what we responded to what people wanted. I did more of an in-depth review of the science We're very much a science-based, science-led company, um, to see what, what would make the better formula. And a few other ingredients were added, some better forms of vitamins and minerals, and we've improved the flavor no end since then, most importantly, and the mixability. And that's what's the— if people have the regular Huel powder, the white pouch, that's, that's the original product.

Yeah, and it's obviously blown up to heights that you probably wouldn't have even believed since when you started it, and Why do you think there is such appetite for a product like Huel? I mean, there's obviously competitors around, but like, why is what you're doing different in this space?

The category that we and some of our competitors are in is called complete foods. People refer to us as meal replacements. Don't really like the term. So if you went home tonight and you might say, what am I gonna have for dinner? Am I gonna have a pizza or am I gonna replace it with fish and chips? You just wouldn't say that, would you? In the same way as you might say, I'll have a pizza, or shall I replace it with Huel? You'll say, I'm gonna have pizza, or I'll have fish and chips, or I'll have Huel. So that's the way we try and view it. So we, what do we mean by complete food? This is our, it contains all the essential nutrients, the macronutrients, that's the protein, carbs, fats, fiber, and the vitamins and minerals in certain levels to be optimal for one's health. Um, so yeah, and that's, that's how it's born. And people, people want this sort of food because they want nutritious and convenience and affordable. Um, the fact that we're plant-based, suitable for vegans as well, is more of a bonus. Um, in the early days, I probably— I'm a nutritionist, I didn't have much knowledge of sustainability and I knew that climate change was a thing and broadly knew what it involved, but that's developed as over the last 8 or 9 years as I've been involved with Yule. I needed to get more at the forefront of that as well. So it ticks that box as well because it should, it's the right thing to do. People want something that's convenient and nutritious rather than walking by a shop and grabbing something that's convenient but not very nutritious.

Yeah, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier where you said you sort of went into the NHS, like, you knew that it wasn't what you wanted to do ultimately, but it was like great, invaluable experience. And for our audience that are younger people, maybe doing their degree or recently graduated, you know, people are thinking about that first step in their career, and it's obviously— I think people put a lot of pressure on it, you know, going into landing their dream job straight away. But how have you been able to transition through being, you know, a nutritionist by trade into, you know, what you actually wanted to do. So whether it was the bodybuilding stuff or, you know, eventually starting your consultancy, which I imagine played a big part in why you got the heel dig.

Yeah, so the consultancy was something I wanted to do at uni. I knew at some point it was going to happen. Didn't know what form that was. I mean, I knew that freelance dietitians were a thing because, you know, I graduated and qualified as a dietitian. And then when I started the NHS, I thought, well, I don't know, something in me thought I should be doing this first, I guess. Although I was young and naive, I, you know, probably was wise enough to know that you need experience to do this stuff. You can't just do your degree and then go out there into the world, which is more than a lot of people do call themselves nutritionists, by the way. They don't even do the degree bit. They read half a book and think they're fucking experts. Okay, so, um I guess I was on the right lines. Yeah, I think for my advice to other people, you know, just graduating is if you want to work in the field that your degree was in, which a lot of people don't and that's fine too, it's, you know, if you do want to work, get some experience there early on. It's going to be not what you want to do, but you're looking at a goal because you know it will come in handy. So, you know, although I worked in the bodybuilding and fitness industry for many years, and I didn't, I hardly ever needed to draw on my clinical experience, as soon as I started Huel, I needed to draw on my clinical experience, 'cause we were getting customers through our customer service, you know, contacts saying, "Oh, can Huel help me with my condition?" And I thought, "Well, yeah, maybe it can." So I'd draw on my knowledge, get a bit more up to date, and think, "Yes, it can," or some cases, "No, it can't." but at least I was able to use that. So now we have a team of nutritionists at Huel, and there's at least one other individual who's got clinical experience, clinical background as well. So we can always answer these questions. And we've talked, we've got a bunch of sort of canned replies for people with certain more common conditions that a customer service team can answer. And if it gets a bit more technical, then they come straight to one of the nutritionists.

Let's talk a bit more about the team at Huel then. So there'll be people who are doing a nutrition degree right now thinking like maybe the pinnacle of nutritional food right now is Hewall. How would someone go about getting into the career path in Hewall? Like what kind of people are you looking for to stand out?

So the nutrition— well, my department is the sustainable nutrition department, so I'm responsible for everything nutrition and sustainability. There's one live role at the moment which is in the sustainability side, otherwise unfortunately were all fully allocated. So there will be 8 roles in the department, and there's 6 nutritionists within the nutrition department, like, I would— developing products, looking at marketing and health and nutrition claims, supporting the customer, customer services, and any— basically anything involving nutrition to do with the company.

Yeah, and speaking of massive growth, you've recently announced your first factory in Milton Keynes. I wonder, with such, you know, well, obviously I know you've been around for a while and you've been doing great things, but this is a big step, right? And one thing I'm sure you're very conscious of is the product still staying the same quality. And how are you sort of overseeing and making sure that, yeah, you're delivering on that quality aspect?

That's a really good question, Peter Wood. We've up till now, and still are, we use co-packers for all our products. The plan is when we have our factory open in Milton Keynes, which the warehouse side of it should be opening in January, I believe. I've had zero involvement in getting this, this product project up and running, by the way. But, um, I think it's going to be June that we should be producing from it. But we've got a whole team that we're already employing now, just running, looking after this, um project, and it is really exciting. The quality, you know, is the advantages. It's got to be— we're based in Tring in Hertfordshire, and it's not that far from Milton Keynes. So the advantage is going to be really— it's going to be easier for us, for, for the technical and quality teams to be on site more. I think a couple of them are going to be based there, whereas the quality at the, you know, the moment they travel a lot to the other sites from our third-party producers to make sure the quality is— but the quality is— we already do the best we can with the quality, so it's just the Milton Keynes thing is just going to make it more economical and more convenient. Sorry. Yeah, the— how do we make, make sure that fuel is the right quality? Yeah, I mean, right at the beginning when it was Julian and me, we relied on our co-packers to do this and Also did a brilliant job. We weren't as rigorous as we are now, nowhere near. And look back and what we've learned is fabulous from having experts. Julie's a marketing guy, I'm a nutrition guy, right? That's, that's what we know. Um, so the way to do things properly, as with any business, is to bring the experts in. Don't try and be an expert on everything yourself, although it is worth founders or entrepreneurs knowing a little bit about every department and how they work. That's really quite important. Only a little bit, just so you understand what your colleagues are talking about when they're talking about the techie stuff. I'm very much involved with the technical team at Hewell because it does overlap massively with what I do in my department, and also the product development team, and also the procurement team. They're the teams that I kind of I have most to do with because of procurement. I have to sign off all the ingredients that they want to buy. Technical is all about quality and product development. We work super close, it's a collaboration. We want it to be nutritious, they want it to taste nice and be enjoyed. So there's lots we do to make sure that your products are the right quality. Obviously the flavour has got to be consistent and that's— we have taste tests and we have certain certain other tests to make sure it's microbial safe, of course, fundamental. We look at things like allergens, we look at other contaminants, everything like that. And all these things are, you know, we're completely 100% sure aren't going to be an issue. And where there have been quality issues in the past, and they have happened, it's all quarantined and, you know, doesn't pass the test. But my department, we look after the nutrition side, so this involves very rigorous testing of the products to make sure it's delivering on the claims, i.e., how much vitamin C is in there, how much vitamin B1 is in there, and is the protein level the right, or the amino acids right. And we take— we, we spend a lot of money every month on, on this lab testing because we lab test the final product and we also lab test the ingredients. We have to be compliant because the regulatory bodies would shout at us if, if we weren't.

On this podcast, we have a lot of co-founders come on, and I do think like generally people who go solo founder, it's a very tough thing to do, right? I think having a co-founder is more than just like being an expert in either field. I wonder with your relationship with Julian, especially in the early days, I mean, it might be a bit more obvious in the product you were making where you're the nutrition, he's like the marketing and the running of the company, but But when the team was smaller, I imagine there was more overlap than maybe you anticipated in the beginning, and you were doing things that you didn't expect to be doing when you first signed up. So how did you sort of get to the right stage from, okay, you know, I'm probably doing things that I'm not meant to be doing right now, you know, was that a big learning process? Are you glad you had that experience? And then what was the actual process of delegating that?

That's a great question. It didn't happen all at once. It was very gradual. For instance, I mean, right in the very early days, I think Julian took on one other lady to help, and he was shipping parcels from his garage. And I think he progressed to a small office, and the two of them were literally spent. Orders were coming in overnight. They were just packing parcels. So he called me up and said, James, drop everything you're doing, find a fulfillment house for We can't do it because they literally snowed under with orders, the two of them packing parcels and sending on DPD. The company can't grow, can it? Because the two of them couldn't do anything else. And I wasn't based down there. I'm based in North Northamptonshire. So I did, I scrambled, and over the next couple of weeks I found a fulfillment center in Peterborough who took us on, and within the month or so it was being shipped from there. We had a system. So that's an example of where I was doing something that I really had no idea about, um, and it worked. Um, there were a lot of other things I was doing, a lot of general customer service, although I was more doing the nutrition questions. When I used to do all of it, all the— if it was any nutrition or ingredient related or clinical related customer service question that came in, it was sent to me. And this is how I— we came up with those canned responses. Um, a lot of them just evolved from early, early copy and paste from what I originally did on on customers. Um, over a period of time, we managed to get a good customer service team. And although we've got expert nutritionists within the team, everybody in the whole customer service team has some nutrition knowledge that we've, we've trained them to have, because we want to be seen as a, as an authority in nutrition, not just on our products. But of course, that They don't try and answer anything that's not in their remit. That would be passed on to one of the nutritionists, or maybe it's me still sometimes. Sometimes I still do the customer questions if no one else can answer them. The product development was interesting because prior to Huel, I'd co-developed one product in my life, and that was a pre-workout thing with, you know, blow your head off, but it was also an electrolyte replacement, fluid replacement thing as well. I was quite proud of that. Hardly sold anything, but I was quite proud of it on paper. Um, and so I had had very little experience— well, next to no experience in developing products. Um, been involved with, with bodybuilding sports supplement companies, but not on the development side. So I was thrown in at the deep end of developing Euralon. What I did was on paper. I'm a spreadsheet guy, you know, working out what the nutrition that's needed, and then a communications guy. That's where, where I sit. The actual mixing and taste nice bit wasn't anything to do with me, so I was very much involved with that initially, although we did, you know, over time employ other people. And then over the years it's built up and deleg— you mentioned delegation a moment ago, wasn't a strong point of mine. I was quite controlling, I wanted everything to be right, and it was probably only, say, 2, maybe 3 years ago at most that I thought actually I should start delegating. And then after a while, you actually realize you actually quite like it because you do feel confident in the team. And I know the senior manager of nutrition, sort of my deputy, who's been with us for, I think, 5 and a half years now, who does a brilliant job, I probably didn't let her flourish enough in the early days because I was more controlling. And I was, I wouldn't say I was ever micromanaging her. I don't think she'd ever say I was doing that, but I also probably wasn't letting her do what she could, was capable of doing. Because I was controlling it. And when I realised that actually, let her do this, if there's any issues, she'll ask. It actually works really well. And then now she supervises everyone else in the team, so she delegates to them, so she's the point of contact if any questions come in. So I've actually let that bit go as well. Yeah, still some things occasionally. So although I sign everything off, she's the supervisor to everyone else, and that works really well. So I would say, when did I feel that I could first really let go to an adequate amount? I'd say January just gone. That recently that I finally felt— yeah, I went on a big holiday for over 2 weeks in February, and I came back from that and thought, yeah, this is, this is cool. It's— yeah, there was some things I had to address, yeah, but none of them were urgent. I literally, you know, felt that it's good. So Yes, there are times now where things do still probably depend on my decision, like being involved in signing off a product, but it's usually not, "I have to do that now, now, now." I've usually got notice that this is coming and I can address it when I need to address it within. Although we are absolutely a fast-moving business, it's maybe not that day I have to address something. I've got 2 or 3 days to get back.

You mentioned your previous company there. Although there's like probably very little synergy in the intention of the products. It's a well-known, like, statistic that people's first companies don't normally work right. Like, they just don't. Like, and, and even when you started Huel, having had a long career and done stuff in the business space, you still were learning loads and things were going wrong that you wouldn't have even anticipated. I wonder what your sort of opinion on is on starting a business when you're young, because there's so much more accessibility to actually building a company now. Like, it's easier in some ways, but I'm sure harder in other ways. When you look back on your career, did you— did you— do you think that potentially you could have started a company younger and you could have gotten those learnings if you knew that was always something you wanted to do? Or did you think like you kind of have to, you know, get that experience in a different field first before you like take that venture?

I, other than the consultancy, I never had any intentions of really starting a company. Maybe I did, I don't know. It's just, it kind of happens, right? So MuscleTalk was a good example. I wouldn't call MuscleTalk a failure. I just call it— because it gave me and my business partner a, um, a good income for 10 years, and it went on for longer, but it started to dwindle a bit because social media and other reasons. But what I haven't mentioned is the other companies that I, that I would not— what I would call failures. So we had a bodybuilding clothing company Brilliant stuff. I've still got the first production run now that I still wear for the gym. It's that good. But of course, we didn't have the range. We didn't know anything about marketing clothing. That was a failure. I was show promotion. I put on some really big events. And whilst for the odd show, I might make a few hundred quid here and there, collectively, although I definitely made a— lost a lot of money. And I was also involved in bodybuilding fake tan. And spray tans as well, um, because very much immersed in the whole bodybuilding scene. That was a complete failure. We were a distributor for an American brand. Absolutely diabolical failure. So there were definitely learnings there, but I'm not an ideas man. I, I've been accused of being an entrepreneur before, and I've had arguments, I've debated, um, debated this publicly before. What's the definition of an entrepreneur? I think it's someone that comes up with an idea. And executes them. I don't think that's me, but because I am still an executor— I'm not saying I don't have some ideas, and I have given up everything else in order to just do Huel, which might put me in that entrepreneur bracket, but I don't feel it is. I feel I work very well with an entrepreneur. I'm positive I have some skills in the nutrition world and looking at things in a certain way, but I'm not someone who just thought, right, I want to set up business and, you know, and make lots of money for the purpose of making lots of money. I wanted to get involved in a business and I wanted it— I wanted to make the best product objectively, not just what I feel emotionally, but the best product objectively. And that's what I still strive to do with any of your products now.

If I add to the debate quickly, um, you You may not have come up with the concept of Huel, but you know, every single week you're overseeing and coming up with new ideas of flavours and the nutritional aspects of that, like, and the longevity of a company is completely dependent on, you know, adapting your actual products and people still want to consume that. So does that not sort of make you an ideas man?

I don't come up with the flavours, get that one straight, not the names, that's the marketing department or the product developers, well the product developers do a brilliant job of making flavors. Trust me, if I made a product, it would not taste good. So, um, you know, it's a bit of a standing joke that I, if I had my way on everything, the products wouldn't sell because they'd be nutritionally outstanding, but I would just leave it at that. So I work very closely with the, the whole NPD, new product development team, in making our products taste the better. They'll tell me, well, what you've asked for there, James, isn't, you know, it's ruining the product. So then we'll work together to try and make it, make it work, um, because I want to use the best ingredients. And, you know, but this is something I've thought of before. You can objectively have the most nutritious, most sustainable product there is from an objective scientific perspective, but if it tastes lousy or it's too expensive you failed in your objective of helping people because no one can afford it or nobody's going to want to have it. So you have to think of the whole thing. You have to factor in, is it commercially viable? Is it going to sell because it's the right taste and texture? And is it the best nutrition you can make it? And that's what we've done. That's why working as a team— so it is very much a team thing. And I've always been told off by the new product developers about certain things, and that's great because it makes us better and it makes me better.

Our audience is predominantly young students studying at university or recently graduated, and you've been at university, and although you're a nutritionist, you could probably admit that if there was a lull in your nutrition journey, it's probably while you were at university, right, when you were young and sort of adapting to being on your own from your parents, or, you know, maybe having that income to actually spend on proper food. Why do you think it is at university people let nutrition fall by the wayside? Because I mean, from my personal experience, yeah, nutrition, I've always been conscious of wanting to eat good meals, but it's just the lifestyle isn't suited, well, I didn't find to like, you know, hitting your macros and your nutrients every single day. Like, why do you think that is?

There's a couple of things there. So my experience at university in nutrition was different. One is I was doing a nutrition degree. Secondly, I was just into bodybuilding so much, all I wanted to do was get bigger, bigger muscles. So some of the strategies I did, I would not recommend. I would just eat loads of food. I would eat good food, and I would have a little bit of junk as well, but I was primarily having bowls of pasta and bowls of rice and tuna and things like that. So I probably did eat quite well, and I was quite fortunate enough that every, every summer between, I had a job, so I earned money. My mum died while I was at university actually, but my parents looked after me really well financially to make sure that I had enough, and also took out student loans. So yeah, I was very fortunate that I didn't have the budget side so much to consider. Of course, I wouldn't go and be extravagant, but yeah, but at the same note, I wasn't spending it down the student union on beer like a lot of other students do. I didn't go partying that much. I would, you know, I was almost, I wasn't, I was teetotal, but I was almost teetotal. So I was so focused on the gym. Now, you mentioned two other things there, you know, how it can be for students, how can they choose optimal foods. And secondly, like you mentioned counting macros and things like that. Is that something you did or you wanted to do?

I mean, I've always been very into the gym as well. I'd watch YouTubers and they'd get different perspectives on how you should actually be nutritious. And that's probably a word that people don't really understand, but it gets thrown around a lot.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan of counting macros. I'm not a fan of counting calories for reasons that we, if you've got 6 hours, we'll cover that, why my thoughts on that at the moment. But I know that annoys a lot of personal trainers trainers. But I, you know, I am writing a second book at the moment, not that the first book's been published, and that's another story that maybe we won't get on to. But right, second book on calories and why we shouldn't count calories, and I'm going to lay out an objective argument for why that is. And by extension, that applies to macros. I'm not saying you shouldn't have an idea of what a high protein food is, a high fiber carb food is, or a high bad fat food is, and where your essential fats is. It's always good to have that sort of basic knowledge. But counting is a strategy, there's so many reasons why that's not an optimal strategy. Eat good food regularly. I mentioned before we started that I'm fasting at the moment because I do the intermittent fasting and I'll eat around lunchtime. And last time I ate was about 7 last night. Do that every day, I find it helps me. Other people find it doesn't help them and I get asked about fasting quite a bit and I would say I say it's one of those reasons where you can possibly ignore the science and look at how you subjectively feel. I know it's good, and then I'll eat more later on in the day. So if that's what a student wants to do, maybe that's for them. But maybe they're the sort of person that likes a good breakfast. Another one of my phrases I use is nutrition science is not rocket science. Sure, if you want to do what I do, then you have to learn quite a bit and, and Yeah, you look at the science, but for most people, you know what good and bad foods are. You know what you should and shouldn't be eating. So, um, and there's this big debate at the moment about ultra-processed foods and whether they're bad for you or not. I've gotten a lot of opinion on that as well, and maybe we haven't got time to cover that today, but for people who do want to know more, you can follow my, my Substack, James Collier, R-N-U-T-R, which is where they can read my views on the ultra-processed food debate. But I think, you know, but a lot of the ultra-processed foods that are being demonized wrongly are quite— are very nutritious. So now I realize that it's not always clear what's good for you and what's bad for you, and that the health claims like low fat and low sugar and high fiber aren't always what they seem. They can mask other bad things. But by and large, If you consume high-fiber breakfast cereals with milk, if you have your wholemeal bread with natural peanut butter or some other, something like that on it, you have plenty of fruit and veg, include meat if you want to include meat, but you can eat a very healthy diet, nutritious, if you're a vegan. But I will say don't have too much meat. Meat is expensive as well, right? So if you're a student and you're on a budget, then keep meat to smaller portions. And one of the phrases is chicken chickpeas, chicken and chickpeas for instance. So have small portion of chicken and build it up with chickpeas for the rest of the protein. You can buy tinned chickpeas or even dried ones and then soak them, they're really cheap. So you can make a meal like that last for 2 or 3 days. And I know sometimes students are too busy busy doing their studies, or rather than partying. But it doesn't take that long to make a meal. And then if you plan ahead for a week, that's one of the best things you can do to make sure you're eating right. Don't bother counting macros, just make sure you're eating good, good nutritious foods at least 2 or 3 times a day.

Yeah, and let's talk about what the actual reason why you would want to be nutritious anyway. As a student? I mean, how do you think it actually optimizes you to be better in like, whether it's your studies as a student or as a businessman, even though you don't call yourself a businessman?

I call myself a businessman, just like an entrepreneur.

Yeah, okay, sure. Yeah, um, yeah, how do you like, what are the tangible effects of being nutritious?

That's a really good question. The importance of nutrition in being productive are massively undervalued. And a lot of people are making bad food choices today, and that will be adversely affecting how they perform. There's been a lot of, there's a lot of work done on taking certain supplements for cognition, like Cognition Focus. I mean, really, these extra little supplements are just the go faster stripes on your Lamborghini, right? If you haven't got the Lamborghini sorted, what's the point of the stripe? I'm not saying they don't work, but they're only really, they may be that half a percent extra when you need to get the basics right. So a few key, key points I think that are really important. So, you know, we've got the gut microbiome, all the good bacteria that sit symbiotically in our digestive system. So overlooked how these help, help benefit health. So eating a good lot of fibrous fruit and veg in a varied— you know, some people say you have 30 different plants a week, that sounds quite daunting, but if you have a mixed nuts of 5 different nuts, that's 5 over, you know, different vegetables and different fruits. So maybe don't go for the 30, especially if you're a student and, you know, you haven't got the shopping capacity. But, you know, try and get a diverse range of different food and fruits and veg and fibrous starchy carbs that helps feed the gut bacteria, which release these things called short-chain fatty acids, which have been shown to help cognition and focus. Um, also, you've heard of omega-3s, like the fish oils, but they don't have to be, um, don't have to be from oily fish. If you're vegan, you can get them from algae or algae supplements, or you can also get them from milled flaxseed, which is why we use flaxseed in Huel, or from walnuts or hemp seeds or chia seeds as well. These have been shown to help cognition as well as having a bunch of other really cool healthy stuff, so The modern Western diet is probably, almost definitely, most people are having too few omega-3s. So if I am going to recommend one supplement, it would be take an omega-3 supplement. You can pick them up quite cheaply. Or have seaweed or make sure you're having the nuts and seeds that I've suggested. Or Huel.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on my opinion why you sort of, your diet goes wrong at university. And I think it's a sort of a chicken and the egg thing where what, how I shop in the supermarket will be so dependent on my mindset or what I've done in that day. So like if I've gone for a big shop after having gone to the gym or for a run, I will buy healthier things and stock that up my fridge. And then when I come back the next day and I'm like, oh, what can I make? What's in the fridge, it's all healthy in there. But if you're going shopping post-hangover, like, you know, you're craving something like fatty, like, you'll just stock up for not just that day but the next few days on stuff that you don't actually want to be eating that next day, but it's what you've got in the fridge. You've already bought it, you've got to use it. Yeah, I mean, and it also sort of lends itself to the question of, as a student, why would you pick Huel, right? Because you walk through the supermarket, you've got all these options here, and from my side, one of the reasons I pick it is because if you can't even really like think about developing a meal, I need that nutrition, like my body feels like it needs it right now, it's there, it's always there, it's the first thing you see in the aisle, it stands out. Like, why do you think students should pick Huel as well?

I'll respond to your first point first, That's a brilliant point you've made there, Peter Wood, about when you shop and how you mindset when you shop. It's well known that people should never, one rule, never shop on an empty stomach. Another rule is don't, you know, watch out for deals. While they can be good, bog-offs can mean you end up buying two for one on something that's not desirable. And the hangover bit was a great insight, actually really useful, because I mean, when I do drink, not very often, but I do, and sometimes I've got a hangover and I might think, well, I'm not going to do anything constructive the next day. So why don't I pop to the shop and get that job out the way? Probably the worst time, right? Because I'm— I think, ah, these biscuits later, and I've overstocked, and I think I'll get through that, and actually I don't. So then they drift into Monday or Tuesday and I'm having them. So great advice. So if you are hungover, I think the best tip I would say is have something nutritious to eat before you go to the shop, and then you're less likely to want to buy the crap while you're there. But also, even on those days, have a shopping list. Go with an intention. If you've got a list and you're only going to buy what's on your list, then you're less likely to buy the crap. Doesn't mean you can't buy one crap item, you know, if you've got the hangover, for later that day. But you're right about stocking up on that rubbish. So answer the second point, why should people have Huel? Because it's convenient, it's nutritious, and if you've already got it in your cupboard and you— it takes It takes the thought process out of what you should have. And you know it's satiating as well. We've designed it so it's high protein and high fiber. Now protein, for several reasons, is more satiating, that means it fills you up quicker than the other macronutrients.

So you've got some wonderful product placement for HEAL here, which is obviously your main project, so to speak. But another thing you mentioned earlier in the episode is that you're writing your own books. And I wonder, because you've done so much, you know, building Huel, that it seems like you've contributed enough to the world of nutrition, but you clearly feel that there's more that you need to give, and that's obviously in the form of your books. So why is it that you're writing these books and what are they about?

So I've been incredibly fortunate with Huel, and I feel now I'm at the next stage of my career is being a nutrition communicator, to run at the same time as I'm still doing Huel. Now the communication side will involve both writing and verbal communication. Part of the reason why I'm here talking to you today, right? It's— I can hopefully get some more nutrition messages across, not just about Huel. But the, the right— I've always enjoyed writing. I used to do a lot of writing with MuscleTalk, a lot of the articles especially in the early days on the Huel website, were written by me. I've always enjoyed the process of writing about science, especially nutrition. And during lockdown, we all got a bit bored, right? I thought I'd start a bit of a blog and did a— did some blog writing and I wrote a number of articles, and 3 or 4 were about nutrition. And the first one was about my own dietary strategy, what I was following at the time, had been following for a couple of years. Where I'm focused on eating for multiple perspectives at the same time. Primarily food for my own physical health and performance and mental health, but also considering climate change and the fact that we should be eating less animal products. So I limit my animal products to about 10% of total energy, whereas the Western average is about 28-30%. But also, I, I also avoid intensively farmed red meat poultry as well. So I thought I'd put my rationale behind that into an article, and that evolved into 3 articles. And then I thought, this is not good enough, there's a book here, so why don't I write a book? So I did, and it took me about 18 months. And, um, long story short, I'm not going to go into it, I'm having a nightmare finding a publisher. I had one publishing deal that went wrong recently, so I'm just pausing at the moment. I'm rewriting one of the chapters, tarting it all up a bit. And I'm going to probably in December, January, I'm going to start again looking at the process of looking for a publisher. But I'm also, I mentioned earlier, I'm writing the second book as well on calories. I don't know if I'm kind of pausing on that one at the moment because I feel what's the point until I've got the first one published. And so I'm focusing on writing in other areas. I mentioned my Substack already. So Substack, for people that don't know, is a platform where people can write articles and blogs and put podcasts as well, um, and they can interact in more of a social media-esque way. So I'm running a Substack. I've got a bunch of articles on there. Some of them are updated, um, older stuff I wrote, and some of them are really new. Um, but why— I haven't really given you the why. I've got a bit of the what there. What am I doing? Um, because I feel now— I mentioned earlier that in January I'll be able to take my foot off the accelerator a little bit, my own personal role in Hewlett I've got much better at delegating. So I've still got a lot of work to do with Hewell, and I absolutely love doing it. But I feel because the universe has been massively good to me, I've probably got some good information that I feel I want to share with the world. So I do that by form of writing. I'm probably quite a good writer. I've been told that. Other people can judge that for themselves if they read my articles. I'm probably okay at the verbal communication. So I've been working on being better at that. I'm doing the social media thing, I've been doing that for about 5 or 6 months now, of the short videos. I think about 5 people watch every one I do, but I'm working on getting that up to about 6. But no, it's slow to grow, but I'm sure there's other things I can do better. But it doesn't matter if a few hundred people view my videos and I'm getting some useful information out there, because people don't like to read, do they? People don't want to read, and they shouldn't have to, they don't want to. So you can be more effective by doing the, the short-form verbal communication on the videos and the longer form, a bit like what we're doing now. So I want— I plan on doing a lot more of this whole nutrition communication thing. Now, my reason for that is, like I've just said, I feel I've probably got some good information to share. But there's more to it than this, and this is perhaps one of the main motivators of me. A couple of years ago, I was talking to one of my nutritionist friends who's quite a big, big name in the UK. And I was whinging about all the crap information that these pseudo-influencers on social media are putting out there, all the dangerous information. And she said, James, that's kind of on us. We don't do it, meaning the authentic, you know, credible, experienced nutritionists. So I thought, well, kind of, haven't I got a responsibility? If I really feel like this, shouldn't I do it? So I'm okay at writing, so I thought, well, writing the book, because part of the reason I do the writing process is not just because I want to share my information. It makes me consolidate my ideas. If I'm reading something and learning about something, that's great, it goes in. And you could say, well, just make some notes, that makes it go in a bit further. Again, that's good, but you have to commit to putting it in the public. And to put science writing into the public is a process. We can all write structured sentences, right? We can all translate what we read into into writing if you're half good. But making it enjoyable, writing with a narrative, using analogies and metaphors and things like that, that's what people really enjoy. Science writing can be boring as fuck, right? So you have to make it readable, which is what I hope to have done in some of my articles. And one of my more recent ones, I've called it Messiah Syndrome in Nutrition, where I'm talking about these pseudo-influencers who are giving out really what I call dangerous information and why it's a problem. So I've actually ventured slightly more into the psychology rather than the nutrition of why— why I picked on one guy individually who I haven't named for reasons that I say in the article, but there is someone in my, in my head who I've, I've got in mind. And, and I'm arguing that he's not just doing it for financial motivation. I'm arguing that he's doing it because he's the savior, he's healing the world, because Big Food is out there to get you. And that's exactly how he comes across. I'll tell you off camera who it is, but I'm not telling you on camera. And if you watch his videos, you'll say, "I get it, James, I absolutely get it." And so, we can't just sit by and watch this. And you can't argue with these people, they're not the sort of personality that could be debated. And you can't stop people watching them. So the only thing you can do is to supply good information there. So I write because I want to consolidate my information. If a few people read that, brilliant. But it's more that I've, you know, I mentioned about ultra-processed foods. I've got a different view to the sort of mainstream view on that at the moment. Well, I've just finished an article on that that will be going up next week, um, which the reason I wanted to write it was because the only way I can succinctly state my ideas. So I realize it's quite a long way of answering your question there, Peter, but that's— they're the reasons, the multiple reasons why I'm doing this nutrition communication thing. And I hope to, you know, get a bit of following, which, you know, like and subscribe everyone.

Well, I found particularly interesting about what you said there is, um, as a young founder myself and having spoken to a lot of younger founders, in order for a business to succeed, and this is kind of more of a recent phenomenon, you need to have a personal brand, you need to be the face of the brand, and I feel like you can trace it back to maybe like Richard Branson with Virgin, like when you think of the company you think of him, and you know, you've built this massively successful company and now you're realizing, oh, I actually should build my personal brand because I feel like I've got a duty to, to, you know, actually help people, which is like completely inverse to why most people do it nowadays. So I mean, it's pretty refreshing to hear, to be honest. And it all kind of ties nicely into my final question, which I ask all of my guests. When you first, you know, finished your nutrition degree, you would have had a certain idea about what a successful career would look like to you, what the pinnacle would would have been. But now, in the position you are, very different, however many years on, you, you will now have a new idea of success. What is that idea of success? How would you like to be remembered?

This is interesting. What does success mean, right? It means different to people, different ways. And it— and you're right, it changes over time. It's a very good perspective, actually. How would I want to be remembered? This, you know, people say always have a legacy. And it's up for debate, right? Some people say, "Don't live life for a legacy. Live for the now, live for the moment." And there's a lot of really cool substance behind that. I think that makes a lot of sense. We're all too busy looking to the future and not enjoying the moment. That's true. So I'm gonna flip it slightly. Live your life as if you want to leave a legacy, because then you can do good in the world, right? You know, enjoy the moment, absolutely. They're right on that bit. But if you live your life as if you want to leave a legacy, legacy. I mean, I'll be dead. I won't give a shit what people think about me when I'm dead because I won't be able to think because I'll be dead, right? But if I've lived my life until I'm leaving a legacy, then maybe there's something good will come out of it. So what is that? I don't know. I don't know what it— what success is. I just know, you know, I've been very fortunate that at Hewlett I work with really, really good people. Everybody I work with is outstanding. It's a nightmare recruiting. It takes a lot longer, but it's worth it because you retain people longer. And I— and it's a pleasure going to work, not just because I enjoy what I do, because I've got smiley people all around me. They're happy people. If they're happy, then I'm happy, right? It rubs off on each other, and that's crucial. So the Huel side of it has massively still motivates me, seeing how the, the company grows. I'm not the business mind in the room of the management team at Huel, but I'm, you know, I'm the nutrition guy, I'm the science guy, but it still motivates me. And the way business is integral with science is fascinating. So what motivates me is continually learning. I absolutely love learning. I spend— I read for about an hour and a half, 2 hours every day. Um, I, you know, I've been training in the gym since I was 16. Um, the only time I had time off was when I was really ill in 2016, when about 5 months off. Other than that, I think I had 2 weeks off at my finals. Other than that, I've never had any time off. That motivates me as well. So I work in the nutrition and health space, right? So I'm not gonna be unhealthy. I wanna try and live and breathe that myself. And it turns out that I haven't got, you know, I've got perhaps got some skills. So I just, the success would be me sharing that. And when I wrote the book, it's a really good question actually. I'm really struggling to answer this one. It's, when I wrote the book, I said, my wife thought, oh, here we go. She's got another one of his ideas. And I don't want to misrepresent her, she's really, really supportive, but she thought, you know, it might be too much pressure on me. And I said to her, okay, I want one person unrelated to me to read that book and get something out of it. That's my definition of success.