Jessica Furness, Director @ Rewriting the Code

Hey everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today I'm joined by Jess. Jess works for RTC, Rewriting the Code. Welcome to the show, Jess.

Thanks, Charlie. Nice to be here.

I think the best place to start would just be explaining to listeners a bit more about what you guys do at Rewriting the Code.

Yeah, absolutely. So we are a nonprofit all about celebrating and supporting students and early career women in tech. We were founded in the US about 8 years ago now, and a year ago we launched over here in the UK, and we're all about building community amongst women looking to kind of start and flourish in their careers in tech. So whether that's you've been doing computer science at university, maybe you've come to tech through a bootcamp or some online courses, or maybe you're just looking to learn more about the tech industry in general, we want to be a place where you can meet other like-minded women, get the resources, get the support, and get the jobs that you need.

I love that. It's a great mission. I'm sure there's a lot of listeners out there who are looking to enter STEM, and so for them, it sounds like a perfect community for them. In terms of your own personal journey, What did that look like before RTC, and how did you come into this role that you're in now?

Yeah, absolutely. So I did history at university, and I wasn't too sure what I wanted to do coming out of my degree. I knew I liked people, so I thought, why not, rather than focusing on dead people in history, start focusing on living people? And so my first job was in HR, and from there I focused on kind of graduate and intern recruiting. So I was a graduate doing graduate recruiting, which was an interesting perspective. And that was at a big investment bank, so it was very corporate, very traditional in a lot of ways, but I think gave me a really great grounding in terms of what to expect going into the working world, and the kind of the connections and the experiences I got there have definitely stood me in good stead throughout my career. But after the bank, I moved somewhere very different. I moved to a tech company, a Silicon Valley tech company. So suddenly I went from wearing suits and heels every day to wearing jeans and trainers, and I have to say, from there I never looked back. So again, I was focusing a lot on graduate recruiting, intern recruiting, and I did that both in the UK but also overseas as well, so France, Germany, a little bit in Singapore too. And from there I moved into more of a focus on diversity. Diversity. It was really clear to me, both from working in an investment bank and working in a tech— in the tech industry, that women were severely underrepresented. And where there were women, they tended to be in the roles that I was doing, so HR, more of those back office functions. And the people that were, you know, on our screens as kind of the decision makers, the executives, all had a certain look, and they all tended to be male. So So that was something that really stood out to me and something that really spoke to me as something that needed to be changed. So when I left the tech company, I knew that the next thing I wanted to do had to have that real kind of core mission of like, how do we make change within the tech industry? And that led me to Rewriting the Code.

Nice. So was it always going to be a nonprofit, do you think, or did it just have to be an organization where there was that that sense of purpose, that sense of mission?

Yeah, that's a really, that's a really great question. I think mission more so than a nonprofit. I think there are lots of companies out there that are for-profit that have really great missions and are building some really great products or working on really big issues in our society. It doesn't have to be in the nonprofit space. So I would definitely say to any student or graduate to really not over-index on the type of company that you're looking for, but actually, you know, think about the mission, think about what's going to get you motivated, and look for organisations, large or small, corporate, non-profit, that is going to keep you motivated, keep you engaged, more so than, you know, maybe the perks or the titles that you might get along the way.

I think it's a really good point actually for people listening. I think often people feel like if they're choosing their roles and the companies they're going to work at, they either choose to have the status, to have the money, or they go into nonprofit. When in reality, you can get both. You can find companies that have a mission and have a real kind of purpose. And so yeah, I definitely love that. In terms of obviously your career transition from bigger tech and obviously a bigger bank into kind of a more nonprofit organization, what have the biggest changes been like in that journey in terms of how does your, I guess, day-to-day differ from what it previously was?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the larger the company that you are in, in some ways the smaller the number of people that you work with. It's kind of a bit counterintuitive. So when I was working at the investment bank, I was incredibly close with my team. So I was working in a coordinator role at that time. I worked with a recruiter, I worked with the marketer who was putting on the events, I worked a little bit with the wider HR team as we onboarded the interns and graduates. Um, but it was really very specialized, very focused on the work that I was doing. Once I moved into my second company, the tech company, um, I got a bit more exposure to other parts of the business. I was engaging more with the engineers and software developers themselves who were conducting interviews, who were building the products that we were showing to students when we went out on campus, for example. Um, and now I'm in an even smaller organization, so at Rewriting the Code there's 15 of us, full-time, I'm working with everyone, and that's from our data and tech team through to marketing, events, finance, the administrative part. So in some ways, I'm seeing more in a smaller company than I did in a bigger company.

Is part of why you love your role at RTC so much because you get to be so close with all the people that you're working with? You mentioned earlier that you love people, you love kind of being around people. Is that part of what makes your role so special?

I think so. And even beyond that, you know, I get to work with a lot of Rewriting the Codes members. So, we have a membership of coming up to 28,000 globally and coming up to 2,000 here in the UK. And so, knowing that there's kind of so many different kind of people from different walks of life, again, everyone's tech journey is so different. It makes it always kind of really interesting and really exciting to meet people. I love listening to people's stories, I love listening to the challenges that they face but also the successes that they've achieved. So yeah, even though RTC itself in terms of our staff might be small, there's a whole membership out there and a whole kind of community of women in tech even beyond Rewriting the Code. That it always is great fun to meet and work with.

28,000 members is very, very impressive. Yeah. I guess it's a great place to actually segue in terms of there'll be a lot of, like I said, female listeners who are maybe considering a career in tech. How can they get involved? How can RTC help them? What do you guys do on a kind of regular basis?

Yeah, absolutely. So accessibility is huge for us, and that's kind of the number one ethos that we have. So Rewriting the Code is totally free for members to join. So if you are a— identify as a woman, studying, you know, computer science or any kind of related degree really, or you're just interested in getting into the tech industry, you can head to rewritingthecode.org, and from there you can complete the sign-up form. If you are an early career woman in tech, and for us early career means someone who's graduated but got less than 5 years of experience in the tech industry, it's the same thing. Head to the website. There's a slightly different form, so we ask slightly different questions if you're a student versus someone who's in their early career, but Again, we wanna keep it super accessible. And then once you're a member of Rewriting the Code, it's very much choose your own adventure, as we say. So, if you are looking for support with job applications, we've got resources on there that will help you refresh your CV. We've got tips and tricks for interviewing. That's everything from technical interviewing to coding challenges that some tech companies have. If you're looking for professional development, We've got events, panel sessions, recorded content that can help you upskill on some of those, you know, softer skills or less hard technical skills. We've got mentorship, and most importantly, we've got community. So it's a really nice way to meet other women in tech, hear from them, learn a little bit about what they've done, and find some friends, because being a woman in tech can sometimes feel a bit lonely. If you're maybe one of one or even two women on your team, where do you find that community? Where do you find that support? It doesn't necessarily come from your team or your company, but it can come from community. So that's what we want with Writing the Code.

I think that sounds amazing. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people listening that are straight over to website now. In terms of, through your experience, obviously not just at RTC but also in your previous roles within HR and early careers, what have you learned that you think are the key ways that students can make their application stand out? Obviously right now is a very competitive time in terms of the market. So what do you think students can do to stand out? And maybe in particular, what can females do to stand out in their tech applications?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, the number one thing I would say is, always say, is to apply, to go for it. You don't get 100% of the jobs that you don't apply for, to use that probably overused phrase at this point. But honestly, and I think it's about making sure that when you do apply, you're utilising every single tool at your disposal. So, if you are someone who's newer to tech, you might think, "Oh, I don't have any internship, prior internship experience." Okay, fine, but have you got projects that you've done? Are there things that you've done in your own time? Is there voluntary work that you've done? Anything you've ever done can be put on your CV, and a story can be told about it. It's about being able to identify those stories and making them apply to the situation that you're currently in, or the question you're being asked in the interview, for example. So I would always say to people, you know, take what might seem like a risk, quote unquote, but actually, you know, I'm sure there are things out there that you can put on your CV. And if there aren't, for whatever reason, well, maybe that's a gap that you can go and fill. So often I get asked, you know, oh, I want to add some more projects to my CV, you know, what should I do, what would look the best? And actually the answer to that is, well, you know, what is it that you want to go into? Can you get there? Is it something that you're particularly interested in, or is it a gap that you might want to fill? And using a kind of thought process like that might help direct you in terms of, okay, this is what I can focus on this summer, or I've got slightly fewer lectures than, than last semester, I can use those extra hours to put towards something that's going to look really great on my CV, and, you know, add some, something a little bit different maybe to my application.

I think the important thing there is that it doesn't need to be your typical professional experience, right? It doesn't need to be an internship or a spring week. It can just be projects that you work on externally, even if it's an individual project that you start, or like you said, volunteering work that you do. That's still all contributes, right, into making it a more impressive application.

Definitely. It's tough out there at the moment for students. The tech industry especially, but I'm sure this goes across a lot of other industries, the economic headwinds that we've been facing means that a lot of companies are either keeping their intern and new graduate headcount flat, in some cases reducing them. We've seen big employers pull internships at the last minute, so it's tough out there, and good recruiters will know that it's tough out there for students. So, you know, internships, Spring Weeks are great, but they're definitely not the be-all and end-all, and we know that there are a myriad of reasons why people may not have prior professional experience on their CV before, and I think recruiters are getting a lot better at understanding the skills that could be gained from projects, from doing things externally, uh, that don't come with a, a big brand name.

Yeah, it seems to me as well, like, from speaking to a lot of people in this space, like yourself and other people within early careers, that now there is a bit of a shift away from the typical way of assessing a candidate, where you look at what uni they went to and what professional experience they have, to now thinking more about the person themself. And obviously, if you're the type of person that may not have any professional experience but you can show that you've done volunteering work, you've worked on this project, and you are someone that can go out and create opportunities for themselves, that to me would come across as the type of person any organisation wants.

Definitely, and I would, I would say, you know, I'm speaking kind of with my tech lens on, but I think this could probably go for a lot of industries. Being entrepreneurial, being proactive, they, they are skills that, you know, employers consistently tell us and we kind of hear from, you know, those looking to employ, you know, young people, that often those kind of hard technical skills can be taught. And it's the skills like being proactive, being resilient, if for whatever reason you haven't landed the, you know, the opportunity you wanted this summer, but someone who's gone out then to say, okay, well, you know, what's the best that I can make of this situation? What are things that I can do that still makes my time valuable? And still will really benefit me further down the line. Those are, those are skills that I think are much more innate in some ways, but still show really good things to potential employers.

No, I love that. I think that's great advice for anyone listening. In terms of your own journey, I'm sure that there, there must have been a lot of challenges, a lot of setbacks along the way. In terms of your journey so far at RTC, I think you've been there for around a year so far.

Yeah.

What are the, what is the biggest setback you faced and what did you learn from that?

"The biggest setback at rewriting the code?" That's a good question. While I think on that, I will actually talk a little bit about previous setbacks. So, from my last role, I was made redundant. As we know, economic headwinds means that companies across the board are making cuts. And that was really challenging to kind of you know, reach kind of an enforced stop in my career. And I'm not going to lie, it knocked my confidence quite a lot. I thought, you know, why am I not good enough? Despite the fact that unfortunately there were a lot of other of my colleagues impacted as well. Somehow you always take it really personally. But it was a good kind of point to pause and say, okay, well, you know, what am I going to do next? It was definitely helpful that I had thought about things like, okay, am I mission-oriented? You know, what's— is tech the space that I want to stay in? But the biggest takeaway for me was kind of understanding that things pop up unexpectedly, and it's kind of great to have a plan per se, but it's also good to have plan B, plan C, not necessarily fully formulated in your mind, but to be able to say, okay, if for whatever reason my situation changed, what are the skills that I could apply in a different role? What are the experiences that I've got that I could take to another employer? Because seeing your circumstances change in that way, you know, doesn't negate the previous experiences that you have. And, you know, if anything, it just allows you to kind of talk about them and reflect on them in a different way. So that's what I would say to kind of anyone starting out. First of all, don't panic if you haven't got a 5-year plan, but also be aware that those 5-year plans can change quite quickly. And so to always be kind of thinking about like, okay, what are the things, multiple things I could do next rather than what's necessarily the step that's directly in front of me.

I think that's really great advice. A lot of people go to, go into university and are almost expected to know, I mean, in terms of the way that the system is set up in terms of spring weeks, internships, graduate roles, in a lot of industries it kind of at some points can become, it can feel like it's compulsory to get that experience, and to get that experience you need to be decided on that career path from the beginning of your journey. But like you say, you, you don't really know what's going to happen, and someone joining university 3 years ago wouldn't have known that they're going to be entering this type of graduate market where it's so difficult to get job. So in that case, I guess for students, you need to know, okay, fine, this is my Plan A, but if things don't work out and maybe the market's worse or I can't get a role in that industry, how can I build up transferable skills that allow me to get a role elsewhere that can then transition into that in the future?

Definitely, I totally agree with that, Charlie. If we think about something like AI, yeah, 3 years ago, okay, people were talking about it, but it was, it was nowhere near as prevalent and as as talked about as it is today. And at Rewriting the Code, we are really lucky to work with lots of different industry partners, ranging from big finance companies through to sometimes maybe slightly smaller, slightly more niche tech companies. We work with manufacturers, and they all want people with AI experience or people that they can put into these roles, if not an AI engineer role, but a software engineering role who is able to understand and be able to use AI to help them become better software engineers. So I think students also need to be aware of kind of what's being talked about in, in the industry, and not to say get ahead of trends, but, you know, the, the jobs that are around 3 years previously are not necessarily the jobs or require slightly different skills to the jobs that might be there once you're leaving university. So I can't say what the next big thing is going to be. I think AI will be around for a while. But exactly to your point, I think that there's a lot that can change in 1, 2, 3 years, and students will always be kind of well set to have that commercial awareness, to think about what's happening in the industry, maybe sign up to one of those newsletters that appears in your inbox every day. Just a really quick way to say, okay, what's happening out there beyond, you know, graduate recruiting or just the companies that I'm interested in at the moment and looking at, but, you know, who are the big players that are going to be influencing then how my potential employer might be thinking about my role.

100%, I completely agree. In terms of RTC, one of the most impressive things I think about the community you've built is that not only is it so big in terms of size, but it also feels like there's a real meaning and everyone kind of fosters that same belongingness within the community. What have you learned so far about how to, how to do that? The reason I ask this is that I think there's a lot of communities that pop up, but a lot of them also feel quite hollow and doesn't really feel like there's a lot of meaning and a lot of commitment and engagement within there. What have you learned about building a strong community where everyone kind of wants to be a part of it?

Yeah, that's a really good question actually, and I think that kind of brings me actually to the previous question about the challenge. And I feel for the first few months at Rewriting the Code, we were very, very London-centric, and that because there are a lot of universities here, a lot of tech companies here, we had staff based in London, so it was very easy to feel like, okay, we're building this really great community, but we were maybe not giving enough attention and care to the other members all around the country, from, you know, Manchester to Newcastle to the very north of Scotland, we've got members in Belfast, And it's something that I really wanted to change this year, and I'm really pleased to say that that's something we're doing. We're actually hosting an event in Edinburgh today. Amazing. So, and that's got 45 people signed up, which is really exciting to see. But it's a process, and I think it takes really passionate individuals within the community, not necessarily full-time staff, but volunteers. We've got 13 ambassadors in the UK And they are again from all over the country, have all different kind of experiences they're able to bring to volunteering with RTC. And their number one thing is that they're excited and passionate and want to share that excitement and passion with other members. So they've been absolutely brilliant. And so what I'd say to anyone, whether you're running a student society, for example, or involved in a community of your own, is to really identify those who are the most excited, the most passionate, and really nurture that and give them the freedom to help you build that, that community. It doesn't matter that they may be first years or, you know, don't have much experience, that excitement and that passion is something.

Sometimes they can be the best people though, right? Because they're the most excited, they're the most energetic.

Exactly, yeah, exactly. You can't, you can't manufacture that, and when you try to, I think other members know pretty quickly.

Yeah, no, 100% agree. In terms of The future then for RTC, I think you've already kind of somewhat alluded to it there, expanding a bit outside of London, but what does the next 5 years look like for you? What would you love to achieve with RTC? Obviously I'm not saying, you know, so you'd be there 5 years, but what would the next 5 years in a dream scenario look like for you at RTC?

Yeah, it's a really good question. So I think, I think so RTC, we've got kind of big presence in the US, the UK and Canada, and— but we've actually got members from over 100 different countries. So we know that this community and the, the resources and the opportunities that we give to our members, this isn't just something that people in one particular place or one particular country need. It's a global challenge, and And the lack of representation of women in the tech industry, again, isn't something that's confined to one place or one region. We see it the world over, to varying degrees, but ultimately, you know, it's a challenge that affects us all and will affect the future of the tech industry if we don't start taking some real action right now. So in the next 5 years, I'd love to see RTC continue to grow. I'd love to be able to provide those resources and those opportunities to as many women as possible. So, the sky's the limit, really. But it's, I think, and in some ways, a bit like I was saying about the companies, in some ways, the more we grow, the more intimate we're able to become. So, you know, if we can grow our numbers, it'll mean more women in Belfast, or women in Cardiff are able to find others in the community that are like them and near them, are sharing their same experiences, and hopefully through that are able to flourish and able to stay in tech. A big part of what We Write in the Code is trying to do is not just get women into tech and through the door, it's about keeping them there. It's giving them the professional development resources and opportunities to say, okay, I can take that next I want to step up to become a manager, or actually I want to pursue a slightly different route, product management, let's say. But there are some pretty scary statistics out there at the moment about the number of women in tech who want to leave tech or drop out of tech, and that's something that we want to address as well. It's not just about getting women in the door, it's about getting them to stay in the industry and become the leaders. In the industry, changing those row of white men into something that looks and feels a lot more like the societies that we live in.

No, I love that. I think the amazing thing about it is that not only do you grow with the journey of your members, you're able to take them as students and grow with them as they then get their roles and then help them develop professionally. Then those people that do become the leaders are almost like able to provide that resource back to the next generation of young women that want to get into tech, and then you create that self-sustaining environment, right, where you can continue to to improve and improve the representation.

Definitely. Although the core membership of Rewriting the Code is students and women with up to 5 years of experience, we have a really great pool of mentors. We always encourage women that are moving forward in their tech career, they're like, "Hey, why don't you give something back and become a mentor?" We know that from speaking to our members that it's those experiences, those stories, that advice that is really inspiring. Because when you see someone that looks like you or has been through the similar things as you, it gives you that little bit of extra confidence and that, you know, a little bit more of a reason to stay and to succeed.

That's amazing. Honestly, I love the work that you're doing because I completely agree that not even just in tech, in a lot of other industries as well, the representation is not enough and that none of them feel like they really mirror what society is. So I love the work you're doing. Unfortunately, we are running out of time, so I would love kind of finish it how I finish every episode, and that's with, what is your number one piece of advice for students listening today? Or not even just students, even people earlier in their career in tech.

Oh, I feel we've covered a whole range of things in terms of standing out in your application to thinking about 5-year plans. I think the number one thing I would say is to be open-minded. Careers are long, careers are varied, The world is changing fast around us, and there is a whole, a whole world out there outside of maybe the traditional graduate schemes, internship programmes, insight weeks. So, you know, look beyond, I would say. Stay open-minded, look beyond, and, you know, find something that really motivates you and is going to keep you motivated.

I love that. It's a great way to finish. Before we wrap up, do you want to quickly remind the listeners again where they can find more information about RTC?

Absolutely, it's rewritingthecode.org. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok as well at Rewriting the Code.

Amazing, make sure to check it out. Thank you again, Jess.

Thanks, Charlie.