Joe Binder, Founder @ WOAW

Joe, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by giving us a quick run-through of your career journey so far.

When you say quick, 30 seconds, 2 minutes, what do you want?

Let's go 30.

30 seconds.

Challenge.

Career?

Yes.

In 3, 2, 1. Hi, I'm Joe. How are you? Um, I set up a business called WOW. WOW builds personal brands for founders and CEOs. We work with high-profile entrepreneurs like Tej Lalvani. We've worked with James Caan. We work with Sari Davies from Dragon's Den. We help them build their personal brands online. However, I removed myself as CEO from that business and hired a new CEO, Freddie Paxton, who is now running the business and doing a great job. I now am running 3 other businesses, uh, starting running. One is called The Common Thread, two is called Workshops by Wow, and three is without a name for now.

Awesome, man. One of the amazing things that you do, and your main mission statement, is to help people with their personal branding. Why is personal branding so important, and why should people start doing it from a younger age, even before maybe they don't even have a personal brand?

It's a really good question. So picture this, you walk into a house party and everyone's doing their things, everyone's like having drinks, there's one guy just chatting shit in the corner because there always is one, right? But then somebody new comes in and you just feel the energy in the room change and everyone's like, hold up, whoa, who's that person? And there's a shift because all of a sudden everyone is focused on this one guy, this one girl who's walked in, and all of a sudden everyone wants to talk to them, and they're walking through the room, they're shaking people's hands, they say, hey, yeah, and everyone's like, yo, I haven't seen you in ages. Everyone knows this person, you want to know the person, of course you do. So you make your way over and you say hi, and I introduce myself, hi, I'm Joe, nice to meet you, and I want to know that person. That is personal branding. In other words, you get to do that not just in real life, but you get to do it online. And when you do it on a platform like LinkedIn or Instagram or Twitter, you get to scale the online version of yourself so that you become the guy in the party.

And having met you briefly before this recording, your, your energy is, is very up and it is very infectious to be around. But your branding is almost as such as well. Like, if you go on your LinkedIn page, it's very like in your face, like, you know, cool things like don't, don't read this, or don't do this, or, you know, quickly find out more about me. How important is it for you to try and make that personal brand authentic to you?

First of all, I think the words you've used there were really kind, so thanks. Um, the less polite way of saying it is unhinged. Like, my stuff online right now is proper unhinged, and it's also authentic, so that catches the last part of what you said. So how important is it to be authentic? Um, again, let's use an in-person analogy. You start chatting to somebody, you kind of want to be friends with them, but you don't really know what they're about. And they basically just walk around with their guard up, right? And what that means with their guard up is it's like they're kind of waiting for you to throw a punch, and they're ready. In other words, you ask them, "Ah, so how's your family?" "Good." "How's work?" "Good." "Fine." They don't really give much away. However, think of an alternative person. Say, "How's the family?" "Ah, things are going well." "My mum's just had this thing, so as a family we're kind of pulling through." All of a sudden, this person's opened up to you. They've been a bit authentic, they've shown you who they really are, and now you can actually build a relationship. So again, translate that from the offline, in person, to the online, for sure. If you can be authentic within the confines and within the guardrails of commercial know-how and knowing that business people and career people are gonna read your stuff, then being authentic is a massive win, for sure.

And what Wild does is take clients, people who have really amazing stories to tell but maybe don't transfer that online, and give them that understanding of how to increase their platform and engagement online. What are some of the biggest problems that your clients have had to overcome in that?

Am I allowed to swear?

Of course.

My mum doesn't like it when I swear. She told me I've got to stop swearing. Not in person, just in videos, because I swear a lot. Anyway, people are worried that they're going to look like a bit of a wanker. That's the problem. People think if they post the fact that they won the award, or if they share the really great news that they got a promotion, or that they finally managed to get an internship, they think people are going to look at them and think, "Oh, that person is proper arrogant. They are boasting, and finally, hold on one minute, let me screenshot that and put it in the boys' chat and let's roast them." So that's the reality of it. And the flip side of that is, you're not arrogant. It's really good to be your own hype person because nobody else is. And finally, cool, let them screenshot it and put it in the group chat because whilst they're chatting and making fun and it's always gonna be lighthearted, you're out here doing it, so like, you know.

And you went to Cambridge, and it's fair to say that what you're doing is probably not what most people from Cambridge go on to do. Is what you're doing something you realised you could do while you were at university, or was it something that you like learned along the process?

Again, wicked, wicked question. I like it a lot because, yes, I'm complimenting you a lot, but they're good questions. They're making me think. I like that.

Thank you.

You know what, I actually got really upset the other day. Not upset, I was fuming. I was actually really pissed off because I have developed such a strong muscle of not caring what people think. And I've done that intentionally over years and it's taken a lot. It really has. I walk around the streets with a huge camera talking to it like I'm speaking to a human because I am. They're just watching me through the screen. But that means I need to walk around with a huge camera in front of people and have a full-on conversation whilst people are like, "Who? What is he doing?" And a lot more stuff, right? So I've really pushed myself over the years to get better at not caring what other people think. However, I think it was around a week ago, I just had a— not a relapse, but I got really affected by people calling me extra and people calling me mental. And people calling me XY, you know, and in all of those cases it was well-intentioned. However, if your mate is ginger, the banter becomes a bit dead after 20 years of knowing them if you still point at the fact that they are ginger. Point at the fact that they've got dead chat. Point at anything else other than something which is a very clear point of difference full stop. There's nothing else. So when people constantly label me as different, even if they're well-intentioned, I don't enjoy that. It doesn't make me feel good. Like, you know, one person was like, "Oh, you're mental," and he meant it in a really nice way, and 97% of that was a good thing, but then there was that 3% of, "Joe, you're different, you're different." I think as a human, you don't— deep down, like a genuine human biological need is you cannot be different because if you're different then you're on your own and that's danger. So constantly being reminded of the fact that I'm different has really pissed me off recently. I'm getting over it, it's another hurdle that I'm just going to have to run with and overcome. But I think it was to be pointed out and said you're different in 7 different ways in a really short amount of time in one day, that hit me and I was like this is so dead. So, and I am getting to a point, I'm taking a while. How are we doing for time? "Oh, we've got loads of time, it's amazing." So I was like, you know what, what I'm doing is different. It's not so normal to start a business. It's not so normal to then get to a point when you can hire a CEO to run that business. It's not so normal to have somebody doing a brilliant job at running the business and then decide to start another business, and then decide to start another business. And then decide to start another business all at once. And I'll come back to the actual question, but the final thing I'll say on with this train of thought is I felt so, like, affected by everyone saying how different and ugh, that I was like, you know what, I need to list, I just need to feel a little bit normal. Like, I need somebody to remind me that what I'm doing is okay. And usually I can give that to myself, but for this time I couldn't. So I thought, who do I know? I thought, oh, Richard Branson. Well, I don't know him personally, but he's got books, he's got content. So I thought, oh, I should really reread his book. And then a couple days later, I should really reread his book. And a couple days later, I'm downloading his audiobook now. And within a few minutes, I heard him very nonchalantly say, as if it was nothing, we have around 100 companies in the Virgin portfolio. And I heard that and I just felt like I could breathe again. I was like, "Ah, yes, it is okay, it's normal. There are people who are doing this, it's fine, there are people who have done it." So yeah, sure, that may be 50 years away, that may be, you know, 1 million and 1 times not gonna happen for all those reasons, but it also might. And the fact that somebody's done it means that I can do it too. To really then quickly answer your question about Cambridge, Yeah, Cambridge was dead for entrepreneurship, and when I decided to start a business after Cambridge, a few months after, all of my friends were going into great high-paying jobs. So that was a really difficult thing to manage.

You mentioned Richard Branson.

Yeah.

It's fair to say that he somewhat pioneered having a company associated with the founder. So I guess that he was almost the initiator of this personal brand where when you think of Virgin, you thought of Richard Branson. Wow, you've taken a step back from it as CEO, but How important is it for the values and the people that you hire to be synonymous with yourself?

So WOW as a business is one entity that is run by Freddie Paxton. He is the CEO. He's doing a phenomenal job. So when it comes to culture, when it comes to hiring, when it comes to firing, when it comes to new business, when it comes to strategy, that's Mr. Freddie Paxton, Mr. CEO, and he's doing a great job. For me now going forward, Not forward away from that, but forward in tandem, like we're going forward together. Because Wow funds the other businesses. How important is it to hire people like me? I have one criteria. That's it. When I hire people, I have one sentence which can determine whether or not that person will do well here. That question is, do they want to be better than they were last week? If the answer is yes, then it's really, really, really likely that we can work together. I'm addicted to hiring. I'm hiring so many people right now. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. And it almost feels a bit reckless in terms of just from a cost perspective. I've probably hired at least 1 or 2 people. I'm just hiring a lot of people at the moment. Yeah, not me trying to do the maths. Not a good job, not a good time.

I think in that strategy of hiring people, what you're alluding to there is the ability to empower someone that wants to do something with their career. And I feel like that's something that's really lacking in university and the education system, especially at like UCL, Cambridge. What do you wish there was more of at university that could have, you know, helps you make some learnings then before you're actually in the business world.

Uh, more entrepreneurs to just come in and chat.

And is this something that you're actively doing yourself?

Funnily enough, I did it yesterday, um, for the first time. No, I've done stuff before. If people ask me to go speak somewhere, I'll typically be like, cool, if I can, if I have time, if it's around social mobility, if it's around people who didn't get the best shot to start with in life, then I'm usually like really, really keen to do it. If it's around— yeah, that's the main thing that I'm really into. But in terms of Cambridge, I went up to Cambridge yesterday because my friend was speaking, had been invited to speak at the Cambridge Union, which was wicked. And she was like, 'Cool, I'm hosting a dinner, why don't you come?' So I was like, 'Great, well, that's 5 PM for the evening. Why don't I go to Cambridge before?' I base myself there, I love being there. I'll just work there for the day. And then I thought, hmm, I didn't have many entrepreneurs that I could speak to when I was at Cambridge. There wasn't much of a community there. I wish I did. Then I thought, oh wow, I'm actually kind of that guy now because I actually do have a business, or I had businesses. And that is, I could be that guy to somebody else. So I put up a post on LinkedIn. I said, hey, I'm going to Cambridge next week, in a few days, on Wednesday. If anybody wants to if you want to talk business about anything, ask any questions around business, let's meet. And I thought maybe 1 or 2 people would show up, and we got like somewhere between, I would say, 10 people. So then we just found a room, we went to King's Graduate Suite, and we spoke about business for a couple hours, and it was really nice. So I do more, I would happily do more of that, but I just need to have somebody else organize it because I'm not the best organizer.

You mentioned that your process of hiring could be perceived as somewhat reckless, but, you know, by giving people such a— or having such a vague criteria in that you just want to be able to get better the next week, the actual practicalities of them going on to perform for your business, how do you make sure you're holding people accountable without actually just like stripping them of everything they could do?

How do you— so just so I'm clear, are you asking how to make sure people are accountable for what they're owning within the business?

So at the moment, I have my real strategy is to empower students and really get them to, you know, give them opportunities and help them grow this brand with me. And some people will buy into that more than others. And anyone can say, "I want to get better, I want to do this." But how do you actually really determine or allow them to go ahead and really execute for your company?

Okay, so the first thing is the people who genuinely would answer yes to that question, it's really, really obvious who's a yes and who's a no. And it's absolutely fine if you're not a no, if you don't want to be better than you were last week. Super chill. Everyone is as valid as the next person. There's no better or worse. People are different. They want different things from life, and that's fine. When somebody does want to be better, ah geez, it's clear. It screams out at you. For example, Ryan. Ryan is the editor of my vlog. Ryan has no business spending hours on a 30-second preview at the start. No business. But he does because he realizes that that thing he saw once on a YouTube video where they just threw in like 15 photos in short succession and did like a click effect. He realizes, "Ah, that could be a really great opportunity to do that now. It's going to take a long time, but I want to do it because I want this video that I'm editing to be better than the last one I edited." It screams out at you. It screams. So I don't think you really need to— when you find people like that, you need to guide them and you need to make sure that they're walking in the right direction. But you don't need to tell them how to walk. And you also, you may need to encourage them to walk a bit faster, but I don't actually know. I think what you do is you kind of grab their shoulders very lightly and say, "Hey, just stand a little bit to the right. Perfect. Now walk in that direction." Because then you know that everyone else who's walking with you, this collection of people, who are walking towards the same commercial goal, i.e., a company, you have been able to very slightly like position people a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right, so that everyone's now walking towards the same thing. And do you need to shout and do you need to say, "Ah, walk faster!" Not really, because if they see you walking pretty bloody fast and they want to be better than they were, and they know that as a collective we're all trying to be better, then actually First of all, you move pretty quick because these are people who keep wanting to move faster, and it's not so necessary to do anything else. So that's on one piece. The other piece you mentioned was around accountability. I just, yeah, I think it's how you frame it and what you actually do. For example, if you say, "Right, Peter Wood, uploading this podcast to Spotify and to Apple Music or Apple Podcasts at the same time. That's your responsibility. When are you going to do it? And you say 5 PM on Thursday. If at 4:55 PM on Thursday I send you a message like, Peter Wood, just remember what you need to do, you're going to be like, Joe, mate, huh? Because it's your responsibility. So I shouldn't have to jump in. So there's an accountability piece here. Now, at 5 minutes past 5 on a Thursday, I can see, cool, I'm not gonna say anything right now. But we had an agreement to do something. Something's gone wrong, maybe it wasn't clear from me. But Peter hasn't done what he said he was gonna do. So then a few days later, or whenever is the right moment, I'll say, Peter, that podcast was phenomenal. I loved it. And I loved also the fact that you did as we discussed, and you uploaded it both to Spotify and also to Apple Music. Apple Podcast. Thanks for doing that. I did notice that we were meant to go live at 5, but we didn't. Was there a reason for that? And you'll then say, oh yeah, you know, I spilled my coffee on my hand, and then I thought, you know, it's 5 minutes. And I said, cool, next time what we should do is we should schedule it so you don't have to manually upload it. So that is an example of accountability, because it's your job to do the thing, and you don't need me to scream at you. You just need me to let you know that, hey, that thing happened, I noticed it, Remember, this is your job. So yeah, and then it gets easier.

As we come towards the end of the episode, a question I ask all of my guests: when you first graduated from Cambridge and entered the business world, you would have had a certain idea of what a successful career would have looked like to you. Now, a few years on, or however long on, you almost likely have a different definition of success. So how has that definition of success changed, and what is it now?

Great. I'm not gonna say great question. It was good. It was a great question, but I've said it so many times already. Um, my definition of success was, and I wasn't aware of this, it was do people think I'm successful? It was hardcore ego, ego, ego. I wanted everyone to think that I was amazing. My definition of success now is Am I living with the knowledge that I don't get to live forever?

Joe, you've been great. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you. Awesome. That was class. Well done. Really, really great stuff.