Joshua Brandon, Founder @ Bermondsey & Ventures

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Joshua. Josh, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. I think it's difficult to even know where to start this, but your career has been based in music more or less, and And I think a good starting point is, uh, what is music? Yeah, what does it mean to you?

Oh, it's an interesting question to kick off with. Yeah, I mean, a lot, to be fair. I think that music for me is, uh, and reason it's always resonated is because it's such a big part of everybody's life. I think that, you know, the creative industries in general I find fascinating, uh, on a human level. And I think music is just a really interesting way for people to tell stories, um, to, uh, go out and engage with each other and have all that kind of social stuff. It's, it's always been a big part. I mean, almost everything we do in life, it touches on in some way, uh, shape or form. So I've always found the business of that very interesting, you know. How do you create the parameters where an industry can exist around that creativity? Um, and yeah, I mean, I've been obsessed with music since I was a kid, basically.

So yeah, yeah. And for you, was— yeah, if we go back to the beginning of your career, you know, studying at university.

Yeah.

Was it always really important for you to be working on something you're passionate about? Like, what was your sort of, uh, attitude towards careers in the beginning?

Well, I mean, I think that, um, I had, uh, a hard-working father, um, who took his career really seriously, and I think we'd always been around that. So I think for me, uh, career-driven was a given, basically. And, um, I was lucky, I think, early on in the sense that I knew there was something I was passionate about. And so making a choice of what career or whether I put my efforts into was quite simple. I'd made that decision probably by the age of 12, 13. I knew what I wanted to do. Um, and, uh, but I think somewhat to the detriment of school I actually got expelled from a couple of schools when I was, when I was younger. You know, as a kid, I didn't really have much awareness of what was going on and the detrimental effects that might have. I was at some good schools and, but I was just really, really obsessed with music and wanted to kind of get on with that. You know, if I could have left school honestly at like 14 and just gone into music, I probably would have done it. And I'm glad I didn't. But I couldn't have even got to a club. Exactly. Yeah. You know, I'd just be in my room listening to tunes obsessively, DJing, whatever. And, uh, yeah, I think it was just a case of how do I make this, uh, make this a business. And I think that, um, because my father was a businessman predominantly, I ended up choosing the business path over the creative path, even though the creative side of it is what I was really into. I was obsessed with that kind of, you know, how music's made, um, why it's made in certain ways, why some music resonates with us than others, uh, and Um, in the end, that's why I became a manager over anything else, because as the manager, you're the closest really to the talent. So although, uh, the business side of it, I think— and as I say, with my dad being a business person, I think there was always an element of like looking for that security. So as a manager, you get multiple chances to be successful, whereas as the talent, you only really get your— not one shot as such, but much less likely that you're going to have multiple chances to convince the people that you need to convince that you deserve, um to be given the opportunity to resonate with the audience.

Probably even worse, right?

Yeah, it's so tough.

5 seconds of fame.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so tough. I mean, if you can even get to the awareness level, to get noticed— like, you've been making the most amazing music, but there is no, um, trodden path anymore for how you might get that heard. Yeah. Um, and even taking it to a creative person, a manager, a record label, a lawyer, any of these people that previously would have made the decisions— all of their decisions are now data-driven, that actually the product that you think is important as a talent is not necessarily what's important to the people that you're trying to engage with. So there's a big conflict now in the industry around, you know, how these worlds merge, basically. So it's very different now to when I started out. Yeah.

And you said though that education, academia, wasn't really for you. Yeah. You've now been to university like 3, 3 times in total.

Um, yeah, yeah.

That first one then, the undergrad Why did you go to university?

Um, I remember I had a conversation with my parents, and when I was— must have been doing my A-levels, uh, and, uh, saying, you know, I don't, I don't know if university is for me, all that sort of stuff. And then basically saying, look, you should do it, you'll regret it otherwise. And so I, uh, I agreed, I guess, and I went to the only university in the country that offered a course that was specifically focused on music industry management at the time. Yeah, which now has loads I know from it that are in the industry, and it's quite amazing actually how, uh, how influential that course has been. Um, but, uh, it was also 10 minutes down the road from my parents' house, so I kind of sacrificed the university experience, um, which is part of the reason I think I went on and did some of the postgrad stuff, because I chose a specific course. I have no regrets around that. I made a career out of it. It actually got me through the university. I got my first internship at a record label that I was obsessed with, um, and that gave me some kudos, and I learned a lot in that environment that I then brought into my own ventures. My first business that I'd started when I was about 16, it didn't really kick on until I was at uni. Um, and without that university experience and the skill sets and the, uh, education I got from it, I wouldn't have achieved anything, right? So I'm a big believer in education now in comparison to how I was. But I think for me, education was like— I knew what I was into, I knew the things I was good and bad at pretty early, and so I didn't really want to do the things I was bad at, and I just wanted to get on with the things that I was good at and I enjoyed. Um, And so as I've got older, you're able to make that decision in further education. You know, an MBA is quite general, and I was lucky to do that. Um, and then the courses I've done more recently are much more specific. So I did a postgrad at MIT, which was in digital transformation, which was fascinating. And then I did global business at Oxford, which were amazing institutions to be able to go to. Uh, and particularly someone who got expelled from a couple of schools and, you know, went to what was at one point the worst university in the country. Uh, it's now gone up the ranks, so fair play to them and well done. Um, but, uh, you know, at the time it wasn't something that from that kind of kudos and university opening up your world, um, and your network. It didn't do that for me. It just was very functional, uh, and so I always had a desire to kind of go into education and do more as I kind of got older. And I guess you appreciate some of the things that are important in life as well.

So there's another thing there that doesn't quite add up in my brain, listening to your story, is that like, you know, so your dad's very entrepreneurial.

You're—

you were doing something entrepreneurial at a young age.

Yeah.

And then you kind of went into a career where you were working for other people.

Yeah.

For a while. Yeah. Or managing people. Like, was there— like, it was difficult to accept yourself as a founder that you are now in the initial stages?

It still is. My dad is a businessman though, so he's not an entrepreneur. I mean, one of my dad's things is that he would— he would, uh, he ran and was successful in large global corporations, but he never managed the P&L himself. Uh, and I know for him that's one of the things that he would have loved to have ticked off bucket list. For me, I've almost had the opposite problem where I love the idea of working within a corporate. I've always loved the idea of it. I've tried it multiple times and it never works out. It's like, it was like being at school for me. It's like, I don't really like being told what to do. I don't really like, um, uh, not being able to just be able to try stuff out. And I think that's the beauty of being entrepreneurial, is like there's the element and risk of failure when you try stuff out, but also it's like, it's really cool to be able to experiment and do that. So the only times I've succeeded when working for somebody else is when they've given me like free rein, complete shackles off. Like, this is what we want you to do. These are some, you know, there is an aim here which might be, you know, grow a business or be a big manager within our organization or something. But how you go about that is like totally up to you. I thrive in those environments. But when I'm in a corporate environment, which again, I love the idea of, I love the idea of working for smarter people, being around that. I love the idea of being involved in uh, all the social elements of working for a big company. Like, working at major record label, uh, when I was younger would have been amazing. Um, I never had the opportunity really. And when I did do a joint venture with one of the major record labels, it was very short-lived for me, um, by nature of, uh, the deal that was on the table, uh, some other stuff going on around that business. And at that time, exactly what you're kind of talking about, like, I was getting frustrated because I was part of an organization that was changing and, um, were making decisions that I just really couldn't agree with. And so that entrepreneurial thing in me started to kind of go over again, which is like, I'm not comfortable where this organization is going, how they're treating people, what's happening. And so it's like, well, I'll just do it on my own. And I think that's one of the things I've always had is that confidence to be like, I don't need that paycheck, I don't need that, um, sense of security. Sometimes to my own detriment, to be honest with you, in terms of risk appetite. But it's meant that, um, I've had the confidence to go, if I'm not comfortable in this situation, I'll leave. But that doesn't really go hand in hand very well with what corporates are looking to get out of people in their, in their teams, right? So there's always been a clash there, unfortunately.

And you're an investor, a member of Opus, which is like a great founder network. For sure.

Yeah, I love those guys.

What's, uh, what's been the benefit of having that community this time around and sort of doing something for yourself, do you think?

Do you know what, the driver to get involved with Opus was just like, I'd left my last, uh, again, a corporate subsidiary, uh, and um, was starting at Oxford for the postgrad, and I wanted to be more involved in other organizations and find ways to add value. And Opus is an interesting organization where it's meant to support, um, people going through transitions just as much as young entrepreneurs and people starting out their first businesses. And so you get a big mix of people in the group, um, and so just being part of that has been the whole aim, just being in it. Yeah, uh, I've gained a load of amazing contacts, uh, and the team themselves are really, really cool. Um, so it's been interesting being around that. I mean, the guy who founded it, I find fascinating. He's very successful, runs a, you know, and co-founded a large fund, um, and runs Opus and just has this kind of like altruistic side. And I think you can see something in what could potentially be built by, I guess, commercializing a membership. Because the commercializing is important because without the finances to grow it, you don't have anything, right? So it's a social enterprise. Um, and yeah, it's been really interesting being part of that. It's still in its early days, um, but also for me it was like, it's, it's different because there's not really anybody else from my world in that. Um, and so there are some people in creative industries and who run marketing agencies and various things like that there, but you know, in terms of being like a music manager in the sense that I am, and that being part of my identity, there's like nobody else in there. So it's really fascinating being around that. And as I've gone on the journey of trying to get more involved in other investment stuff and start like, uh, the venture studio that I now have there are other people there who are like super successful in, you know, venture capital and venture studios and various different like institutions like that. So I've gained a lot in terms of being able to just like chat to somebody and have a coffee who, you know, might have run some multi-billion dollar funds somewhere while I'm still trying to like figure out, you know, how to get early stage startups in music off the ground.

So yeah, yeah. But I think one thing I noticed you were saying there about why you love the the co-founder of Opus, is that he saw something in people that he didn't have to go out of his way to do it. But like, you know, he's a scout, you know, like very much like your role, uh, as a manager of— in the music industry, you're trying to find people to give them that, that opportunity, to give them their career essentially. And yeah, and I think there'll be, you know, some students listening to this that whether they've accepted themselves as a creative or not, they're thinking, well, even if I did want to go into it, how do I even make myself stand out? What they're really looking for.

100%. And from your experience, what do you think has made stand out? Well, look, I mean, for what it's worth, I think if there are young people listening to this who are, who are graduates and are looking to start their first businesses, I honestly think Opus is worth looking at because it's a, it's a really interesting environment to be in. Um, I think in terms of your question about people standing out, um, for me it's always just been like the classic kind of stuff that people maybe say about entrepreneurialism, but like, you know, um, dedication, drive, persistence. Um, I do think that as I've got older, I've started to respect a lot more and being a lot more aware, I guess, of people who were older than me and more successful when I was getting into stuff. Um, the, the awareness they had about people's intelligence and people's, you know, drive, as I've mentioned, but also, um, being able to really kind of like understand people and, uh, make decisions about people early on in their careers that they would be able to support and be able to kind of like, you know, either mentor or bring up in organizations and whatever else. And a lot of that becomes a kind of like rolling stone in the sense of you get a bit momentum and it just starts to become compounding. But in the early stages of the career, to stand out, it's like turn up, you know what I mean? Like show that you're about, show that you can think about it in the way that you're supposed to, that you understand what the wants and needs of either your clients, if you're entrepreneurial or whatever, or your boss or whoever it is that's a stakeholder in your life. Like, what are their wants and needs? How do you deliver upon that? And how do you just show up and show commitment? Because that's what people want, right? They want, they, they want you to make their life easier. And that's what we all do when we're young, right? And I know a lot of people kind of talk now about, you know, um, entitlement and various things like that. And I think there's just a— it's not as cynical as that. I think there's just a confliction in, in certain things that, you know, that that there are out there. And, uh, you know, the way that people operate in various things, I think both sides could be a little bit more empathetic towards each other. Um, but I do understand where some people get frustrated about the fact of like they are trying to— and some good bosses out there trying to, you know, empower people in various things, and people just aren't showing up for something for them. For them, sometimes the people that do show up are going to go all the way. Like, I was literally having this conversation with a partner at, um, one of the major, uh, major accountancy consultancy firms, uh, recently, and that's what they were basically saying. They were saying like you can notice the difference in who's going to be successful, who's going to be able to deliver on the work, as well as, um, who's going to kind of like just show up for it. By the nature of when something gets put in a diary or when there's an expectation of people, like, they are there, you know. And the ones who aren't really kind of showing up, it creates, uh, uh, you know, a friction really that is not going to work in anyone's favors if they're really trying to succeed in those organizations. And again, as an entrepreneur, you know, the reality is, is like you've got to work doubly hard to get your business off the ground, to get noticed, to do anything. We were talking about social media before, right? It's like the reason that that matters is because it's an indicator of, you know, conviction. Are you willing to put the effort in to grow an audience, to deliver content, to do all these things about your personal brand that matter? It's not just the case of having the personal brand, it also highlights personality in somebody, you know, and character traits.

Yeah, I think like conviction and the mindset that comes with that is, you know, especially in this job market, like the— what I've seen to be a USP like that, that makes somebody stand out. And, um, I think something that's interesting, uh, that I want to dive a bit into is a lot of people go through their career, um, maybe that they might be doing well academically, they might be doing all the right steps, but fundamentally they don't know what they want to do. And that's like got its own problems with doing things that way around. But you had it on the flip side where it's like, I've always known what I wanted to do, to the detriment, right, and, uh, of academia and studies at times. But, you know, it's something that I don't really get to speak to people about as much, that I've known something that early and then actually been able to execute on it, um, in different ways throughout your career. But yeah, what have been the struggles and sort of learnings that you would give back to someone that does know what they want to do and how they can not lose it or let anyone take that away from them, for example?

It's an interesting question actually, because as much as I knew what I wanted to do when I was younger, um, I burnt out when I was like in my late 20s and I lost that. I mean, I couldn't listen to music for about 6 months. I literally couldn't listen to the radio, do anything, because it becomes so, so much of a product for me. I'd lost all passion for it and, and the industry had become what I saw when I heard music, right? And all the kind of competitiveness, uh, you know, to put it politely. And so Uh, there was a period when I really didn't know what I was going to do. Um, and so I think the way you worded that question is like, protect yourself and your energy and your mental health and all of these things. It is really, really important. Um, because burnout is really not fun. Um, and particularly when you get disillusioned with something you've been so passionate about for so long. Um, but you know, I think that if you know what you want to do, you're really lucky. Really, really lucky. Um, and you should just basically go for it, um, and, uh, then you'll have no regrets really. And I think it's much easier when you're younger to go for these things. It definitely is. You don't have the same trappings in life and various things that sort of come up, um, and, and energy and various things like that, um, but, um, it's also just much easier to pivot back when you fail, if you do, or if you find out you don't love it, right? You might think you're really into music and you want to be a producer or a DJ or something else, and you start out on the journey and actually you realize, yeah, I don't enjoy this. I enjoy it as a hobby, but do I want to make it my career? No. So then it's like, okay, cool. If you're, um, you know, if you've made that decision, uh, it's really not that difficult to pivot back. But if you start down the journey and you get convinced to maybe like that you love DJing, but actually you get convinced to go off and, you know, go do this and that and become whatever, and then suddenly you're midway through your career and you're like, I really hate this, I want to go be a DJ, it's like good luck, do you know what I mean? So I would say if you can, you know, if you're into something and you know what it's about— and by the way, it doesn't have to be anything cool, right? Like, people perceive DJing as cool, but a lot of people who produce and DJ are really, really into what they do and kind of like geeky about what they're up to. So to them, it's no different to being somebody who's a coder or whatever else, right? They're just amazing at what they do. And actually, a lot of coders do some really, really amazing, interesting, cool stuff. Similarly, being, uh, involved in, in, and, and being successful in all sorts of business activities allow you to live a certain quality of life, right? So that might be a driver. You might know that actually you don't really care what you want to do, but what you want to be able to do is go on holiday X amount of times a year and go travel and all these sorts of things. There are different reasons that you might be driven to find the job that you're after, but if you have something that is the driver, listen to it and go for it, because that's probably what's going to make you happiest. Yeah.

Protecting your mental health, you mentioned that earlier. Yeah, um, I think it's— yeah, maybe it sounds obvious, but like already in this short career that I've had, like it's been instrumental in my like threshold to actually take on more alternative things in my career. Like I, I've said it to some students recently, it's like, like, oh, how did you, you know, not go into corporate and do something different? It's like Well, there was a point where I couldn't even think about anything I wanted to do in my career because my personal life ducks weren't in order, right? Yeah. And I was this university student living the university life, and then suddenly you've got to change that, right? Like, suddenly you've got to stop being a degenerate, like, that used to get glorified, and now you're like, oh, these people are getting jobs, applying for summer internships, whatever. And yeah, um, and I've really learned the power, like, and used it as my anchor of just like Okay, like if something's not going my way that week or even day, like, you know, everything is rooted in how— what can I do first to get my personal life ducks in order?

Yeah.

What is anything you can share from like your, your career journey? Like maybe an example, a case study of getting your personal life in order and how that's actually benefited your career?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think, uh, even if we just look at being like a a music manager, um, how can I take care of clients if I can't take care of myself, right? And so again, when that sort of burnout happened, uh, I— at the time I felt like I'd let a lot of people down. In reality, it was more complicated than that, um, but, um, I, I— for a period I kind of lost my career as a consequence of, um, uh, not taking care of myself and not appreciating the fact that if I didn't take care of myself, you know, I was putting everybody else before me. It's like this client, it's like my whole life is gonna, you know, we have to make it work, have to make it work, have to make it work. You know, I remember I got acquired just before I burnt out, uh, or as I was kind of burning out actually. I did the deal because I was trying to look for stability and it didn't give me that at all. But I, um, uh, you know, it was like immediately it became this whole situation of like, I know, well, now I'm in this corporate and it's like my— I've really got to deliver for my boss. And it was more pressure and, um, I couldn't deliver for him, I could deliver for them. Um, because I just couldn't turn up, you know. So yeah, it's like, without taking care of yourself, you can't take care— like, literally, your relationships will not work, your career will not work. Like, you can't show up and be who you need to be for your family and your friends and all that sort of stuff. Like, it's— I've learned the hard way, I would say, through life, that you really, really, really have to take care of that stuff. And because I'd had so much conviction about what I wanted to do, that became all I cared about, really, in my late teens and 20s, was making that work. And then when I started making like really good money— and I was lucky to do that, I did make good money pretty young, um, and I was making so much more than my friends— it became this thing like, wow, like, you know, maybe I can retire by the time I'm 30, maybe I can retire, you know what I mean? Like, and do all this like mad incredible stuff, right? And actually part of the reason I didn't is because I pushed myself too far, do you know what I mean? Like, again, I've been lucky and I've had a good career and everything else, I've made money, but like, you know, it's, uh it would have been a different journey, absolutely, if I would have taken care of myself first and foremost. Um, but I'm also someone like— I'll speak even more candidly, right? I have, um, uh, a lot of my drivers have been to do with wanting to— to a point about even like, how do you get noticed and stuff. It's like a lot of my drivers, maybe a lot of my entrepreneurial flair, is about, well, you're going to get more noticed if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to get more opportunities um, you're going to cut through faster than if you're a corporate. That was one of my attitudes as well, is that it's much harder to navigate through that corporate thing, particularly when you're young. But if you have success young as an entrepreneur, it's like everyone knows who you are, right? Um, uh, so what I'm trying to say within that is a lot of it's come from insecurity and driven by fears and various things like that. And, um, I think that's one of the things to be most aware of, is like, what's driving you? Uh, where's that energy coming from? Is it from values? Is it from fears? Use a bit of therapy talk or whatever. But it's like, if it's to do with who you want to be and a values-based thing, I think you'll probably again find success. If it's not, then I think that again, this is where some of these negative things come up, because then you start to build your life around the amount you're earning, the trappings, the various other things. They can start to kind of like supersede maybe the reasons that you originally started to do stuff. And so it starts to get a bit more complicated, and that's how I think things like burnout really become more prevalent, you know. Whereas I think if you're sticking true to what it is that, you know, you want to do, and, uh, without getting too deep about it, all that sort of stuff, then I think, you know, these these things are less— but you have to be really self-aware. And I think that's one of the advantages that I think, um, people have now. Again, if I look at, you know, my father's generation, no one spoke about stuff like this, you know what I mean? He said he wouldn't have gone on a podcast and spoke candidly. I mean, he wouldn't have allowed it, let alone like the social norms at the time. And then for me, it's like a bit more, but I think I was in a sort of transition period where for me to talk to him about this sort of stuff would just be no chance. Whereas I'd watch my brother with with my nephew, and it's like all you talk about is this sort of stuff. And I think people are now able to be more aware of what are the reasons that I might fail, what are the reasons that I might burn out, what are the reasons that I am doing something or maybe I'm not doing something, who do I want to be in the world. And, and I have more opportunity to make that decision, right? Because to be entrepreneurial now is in many ways the risk, um, is less extreme because you have— there are tools there to be able to utilize, you know, there are things you can tap into to maybe start to make money a little bit earlier and then build your business up like that and build your experiences rather than kind of just shoot in the dark. And the corporate route is not the kind of like the dream that it used to be for everybody, which is why corporates go through such efforts to make everybody feel, yeah, comfortable there or pay them a lot.

And just on that point, to play sort of devil's advocate, I think The problem with being an entrepreneur in this generation is the manic depressiveness that comes with seeing other people's virality and success on social media. I think you've actually run an agency that helps like creative brands in their virality. And yeah, and I wonder what— part of the question is how do you actually do that, but how do you do it in a healthy way, like when you actually know what you're trying to go viral for as well?

Ah, interesting. Um, I mean, look, when I think in that comparison thing, there's that saying, isn't there, which is comparison is the thief of joy, which I quite like, right? And I think everyone should be very aware of and keep top of mind because everyone's journey is 100% different. And I think mine's a good example of that actually, where it's like just ebbs and flows and you do all this kind of like mad interesting stuff, um, which has its ups and downs and whatever else. Anyway, um, and I think, but in regards to that authenticity, I mean, that, that is it really. I think that if you— again, it comes down to you. I think nowadays more What I see is that there was a period when people were— and, and how people were successful online was quite homogenized, and everyone was trying to be a certain type of person. And you can see that even in terms of like influencer looks and the— as Instagram was blowing up, or, you know, whatever else. And, uh, you know, even, um, trying to think about some of the businesses we've been involved with where a lot of the stuff that we were doing was quite specific, whereas now it's like people can do anything. I mean, there are people who have really great social media businesses doing all sorts of niches, right? And so I think it's, it's now actually more than ever you can be so, so, so authentic and still find your audience. Uh, sometimes people do that in toxic ways, and sometimes people do that really, really well and positively. Um, but, uh, the fact that you can do that is the interesting thing about social media landscape now, for sure.

Yeah, this weekend I, I saw, um, an Instagram account that they review sticks and they just sold like a best-selling book.

Okay.

And like they've got millions of followers. Yeah, that is like the perfect example of someone just start reviewing sticks, it's become a multi-million pound business.

There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, who'd have thought? Yeah.

And I guess like you never really know. I think that's, that's one thing about, um, and maybe where a lot of things are going wrong in this job market is that they're like the true awareness of like the benefits of this job market and like how it can play into advantage are not filtered through in like a, an equal way. Like it's very much luck-based, or like the right person you know, or just like you read the right thing and rabbit hole at the right time, like all these kind of stuff, things. And I wonder sort of if there's anything that you think from the more old-school way of doing things that people should be like, you know, sort of those initial entrepreneur ventures you were doing that you wish you could give back to our generation?

Um, I do think it's like there's so much information out there and everyone's trying to like sell that they have some sort of solution for you, right? And I do really feel for, for that because it's like, where'd you get your knowledge base from? 100%. Um, and I do think it's hard because a lot of people end up looking outside of the system, right? So even at school or at university, you might be learning what you're learning, but actually a lot of what you're actually learning or ingesting is from social media and from, from potentially, um, inexperienced people, um, you know, at the softest, and potentially more harmful otherwise. And that is really, really, really difficult. Um, so I actually think an old-school thing would be find the people that, you know, some of them might be online still, but are there people in real life? Are there people that you can, um, talk to and, um, trust in what they're kind of talking about, um, and mentors basically, and that kind of stuff. You know, I, I do some mentorship now, um, because I never had anybody like that. And it's not to say it didn't exist, but I think it's more prevalent now for sure. There are all sorts of different programs that provide mentors, and it's, you know, you do it online and various things like that. I didn't find any mentors, and to be honest with you, most of the people that I found that I thought would be mentors are people who ended up screwing me over because they were people I was involved with business-wise. And I kind of— because I didn't really understand the difference. I was like, okay, well, this person's a leader and in my life, and maybe they'll be my mentor, maybe they'll look after me. But actually, you know, we were in business together, so they were financially motivated to maybe not so much look after me. Um, so, you know, finding people that you can trust in and finding the voices that, you know, you can trust in, and whether that be through your peer group— and that's how it would have happened before, right? It would have been recommendations on stuff. So all that same— all the same principles are there, but you get fed so much without choosing to be fed it. That's the difficulty now, right? It's like, how do you find that authentic, again, voice that you want to connect with or listen to or whatever, engage with, learn from, or even be able to actually genuinely communicate to, um, when so much of what we get fed is not stuff that we've selected? And it's basically just really got to put the effort in and be aware and have that critical thought of, I'm not going to listen to that, I'm not going to listen to that, um, but this person here has told me that maybe I should talk to X. Or if you're an undergrad or whatever, a lecturer or somebody else. Particularly like for me, when I did my course, um, the lecturers are really cool. Some of them had achieved a lot more than others. That's the nature of it. Some people are more academic, especially when they're lecturers, right? They're more academic by nature. Some people have gone into that role because they've succeeded and have then started to put their efforts into academia or, or whatever. Um, but a lot of those people were really, really helpful for me. Um, and as my career had gone on, going back to some of those people have been really helpful, trusting in them, also listening to them and their recommendations on on who I might be able to talk to, leveraging networking, that sort of stuff, like that traditional way of networking and increasing your chances of opportunity through, you know, your— the power of your network. There's no two ways around that. That is arguably probably even more important than ever when there's just such a saturated, convoluted world out there where people can connect and talk to anybody. And we were talking about before we started, but with LinkedIn, it's like, it's phenomenal tool, but sifting through that and finding the right people to connect with and talk to, it's a skill set, it's an art form realistically, but it's really, really important if you get it it, it'll help your career. If you don't, you're gonna waste loads of time sitting on a platform scrolling or chatting to people that aren't going to help you or potentially be negative influences in your life.

So do you have a favorite case study of your time in music, like managing, finding, scouting people, of someone that achieved great success? And, and why do you think they were successful?

Um, yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of different people really. I mean, I think that in the end, um, Um, again, to be successful in music is no different to anything else, right? To get to that top percentile of people, it's like you need to have a multi— you know, multitude of kind of skill sets and whatever. The talent is one element of it. Ability to market themselves, ability to communicate and network and, uh, build up an audience and connect with people in that way, create, generate fans. And when I mean that, when I say that, I don't just mean fans in the way that people think about with music or entertainment. But also industry fans, right? People don't really get anywhere without making the industry— on getting the industry on their side. Um, and all that stuff is still really true. I mean, I had, um, my first like real sort of commercial breakout success. I'd had successes previously, and I looked after, um, people that, you know, I'm proud of that journey. But my first number one records of my own, um, working with somebody was about an act called Sigma. It's a drum bass duo. And, um, I think for them, as they were a duo as well, they both kind of had different skill sets. Um, and, uh, the reason they were successful was they created the right kind of music and were willing to listen to the industry people around them, um, when it came to like, um, a bit of guidance on the creative, and open to being commercially successful, which a lot of people were closed off to. So there's all sorts of things within it. But, um, again, if you would apply that to a working environment and how to engage with the working environment, it's like, well, there are people around you that have been doing this for a long time that have had commercial success, so they're in that position for a reason. So maybe sometimes you can listen to them as well as understand and appreciate the fact that you have talent as well. And so it's like, again, we go back to that first question about what makes people cut through, you know, being able to have the confidence that you are also bringing something to the table and getting that balance right between listening to what people who are maybe more experienced have had success around are advising you on as well. It's probably going to be the best balance towards success, you know. And, um, you know, Sigma had repeated hits as a consequence of using— utilizing their talent, um, and the basis of their whole career was on a decade plus of being in a scene that then allowed them to catapult through that into the more commercial kind of domain and arena that they went into. They wouldn't have got that far if they hadn't put the effort in in the drum and bass world. And even in that, it came down to, you know, getting the right bookings personal relationships and making the right music, all those sorts of things. So they did a lot of the networking and all that sort of stuff we're talking about, and then when their opportunity came, uh, they had a number one record, which kind of really came at us, and then they listened and had more hit records by being open to that, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely have spent a lot of time listening to them, and I think, like, knowing that the intricacies of what goes into it, like, is I guess when you become more career conscious, it's always, it's always interesting to, to, or learn there's more than just making music, for sure. And that's the same with every career path, right? Like, there's— and one thing we like to do on this podcast is, is try and like make sure everyone feels heard in a career sense. So that's a big goal for us. And I think with that being said, you know, if we take yourself back to your younger self— I know we picked up loads of different sort of character traits throughout the episode, but but if you were trying to give a message to your, to your younger self, someone who's like that, who are you and what advice would you give to them?

Um, I would probably say, uh, to be honest, I'd probably say exactly what we just said in that last response, which is be more confident and know your, um, what value you're adding, you know, and that there are about certain things that you're bringing to the table. You know, I think imposter syndrome would be one of the things that people would, you know, talk about there, right? Is which is, which is a big problem with people particularly as they become more successful. Um, having that confidence, but then equally on the flip side of that, like when people are telling you to do something, when people around you, they're genuinely trying to help you, don't be afraid to listen and to be appreciative of their time. Because it's funny, I reconnected with, um, the guy I did my internship, um, with when I was at uni, uh, very recently, and, uh, we actually, uh, uh, are doing something Peter Wood at the moment, and, um, he was like, I loved working with you, but you were like so on what you wanted to do that there was just no helping you, do you know what I mean? And so it's one of those where it's like, have confidence, but equally, you know, be aware and understand that, you know, you can't do everything on your own. Like, it's just not possible whether you're entrepreneurial or whether you're in a corporate. Like, you have to pick up fans along the way. It's really important that you you know, engage with people in the right way, listen at the right times, and equally show up and deliver on what it is that, you know, you're supposed to be there to deliver upon. And I, I was lucky because I could turn up and I could deliver for my clients. And at the end of the day, that was my currency, right? If I've got a good roster of talent, then people are going to talk to me and pick up the phone. If I don't, then they're not, realistically. And trust me, there are a lot of people who succeed in music who aren't the nicest people, do you know what I mean, because they have a good roster. So, you know, some of the skill sets that we talk about here, you know, being a well-rounded person, aren't necessarily always the thing that get people the most successful. But, um, yeah, I think that would be the advice I would give my younger self, because I both lacked the ability to really listen and be open to other people's advice in the way that I needed to, but I equally lacked the self-confidence, um, to really also show up in the right way rather than just desperation to succeed. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And you're somewhat in a new, like, chapter of your career, or some, some more in, uh, some ventures is more in that infancy. Uh, what do you feel is different different this time around to like those, um, those ventures when you were much younger. Yeah, like why do you feel more prepared and what are you really looking to do with them? What's, what's the bit, the greater goal of these ventures?

Yeah, great questions. Um, there's definitely just generally obviously much more experience and also the education is folded in on that. Like I can't take away from, I have gained from every bit of education that I've, that I've done. Um, you know, I think that it's much easier to react, uh, as a serial entrepreneur when you've tried multiple things, done, you know, a variety of different types of businesses now. Like, I've not just been a music manager. I've been lucky as well. I've gone out and done other things, um, all within creative industries and entertainment in the end. As much as sometimes I've tried to get out of those, I always get pulled back.

Yeah.

Um, but, you know, those experiences and, uh, again, the awareness around stuff is allowing me to be a much better sort of advisor now, which I think is the difference, right? Whereas before I was like the founder. And it was like, um, I wanted to run my business, you know, do my thing. And yeah, I've had co-founders in businesses and stuff like that, but it was always very much like I'm part of the force driving this forward. Whereas now, really what I'm trying to do is find and work with people who are starting on that journey or going on that journey for the first time, or, you know, have an interesting concept, can't do it on their own. And so I can play a slightly different role within that, given the experience there. And that's really exciting for me. That's— that would be the dream for the rest of my career now really is to be— and even in terms of, as you know, I look at talent management, which is certainly something that I'm always interested in and will do. Before, it was like, right, we're doing this together and we're going on this journey. And I think a big part of that was because a lot of time I was actually younger than the people I was managing, um, whereas now it's like the dynamic has shifted and I'm probably where I should be a manager. And I'm like now going, okay, cool, like, we're not really on this together. Like, I'm your manager and I'm turning up and I have all this experience, and I'm now coming at it with that energy, you know. And I'm like, this what we should be doing. This is the advice. Like, you can make your own mistakes and make your own choices, it's your career, but I'm gonna turn up and I have confidence in the experience and, um, uh, abilities that I have so that I can advise much better than I probably did before when I was a little bit more of a strategist and doer. Whereas now it's a little bit more of a kind of like advisor and guide. Yeah. And kind of like coach in a bit of a way, you know. Um, yeah, much more so than for.

That's interesting. I think I've been having so many learnings recently about the, the power of like youthful naivety and, and when it becomes— or how you actually cultivate that as you get older and refine it and use it to your advantage. Because in the beginning, let's say it's the naivety that makes you like make mistakes and get slapped in the face and learn from it. But as you, as you get older, it's like, how can you still live with that naivety and the benefits of that? Yeah, but like like, you know, have the right support network around you, for example. And with your Ventures business, like, obviously you're going to be taking on talent and, you know, people looking to build a business of their own. What are you— what are you looking for, and what are you— what are you offering them in terms of, like, the actual, uh, explicit things you're gonna offer?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, um, you know, I guess a big part of— for me now is also, like, access and experience. Like, my network is really strong, so I'm able to help people kind of, like, pull stuff together and do various things like that, which always helpful, particularly when most businesses— like sales is a big part of what you got to do, you know, you got to get money in, right? You got to convince people to part with their cash, um, and, and bring it over to your business for the services you provide, uh, which, you know, is a lot harder than it might sound, um, and, you know, I, I do think, um, a lot of the people I'm working with now are more experienced themselves as well, right? So most of the people that I'm working with are really experienced, actually, um, and so that's also quite different because none of us are really bringing that sort naive energy to the ventures that we have at the moment. I'd love to do more, uh, with people who are kind of like fresher to it. And I get— I guess I get a bit of that energy through being in the Opus office, um, but I'm not really working with those people, right? That's not an environment where you're collaborating in that sense, um. And I do feel like sometimes our businesses can, can struggle as a consequence of that. So it's a really poignant point because having that energy is really important. It allows you to kind of like like fail forward or whatever the right phrases might be for this sort of context. But, um, you know, I think that, um, even in myself, like, my risk appetite, I mean, even some of the experiences I've had in the last couple of years has shifted. And like I say, you get trappings in life and you get various other things that kind of become more important. Um, but I do think businesses, like, can learn a lot quicker. And, you know, you can go through stuff in a way when you have that kind of, like, just naive positive kind of confidence around stuff. And I, I don't think I've lost the positivity. In fact, if anything, one of the things I've been working on is actually how to be more negative and how to evaluate risk in a slightly different way. Because at the same time, that's what the youthful naivety— that's the downside to it.

Yeah, it's probably more that delusional optimism you want to keep hold of, right?

Yeah, ideally. But you need to be— you need an element of realism in there to really succeed. So getting that balance right, it's all quite nuanced, to be fair. Yeah, but I do think, because I've, you know, this latest business, things have been slower for me because businesses are kind of like, okay, cool, you know, we know what we're doing here, we've maybe done this once or twice before, so we can give it a little bit more time. Let's think about this, let's think about that. And even subconsciously, or even without kind of being aware, you're like, actually, 6 months down the line, have we done everything we would have done if we were— if this was 10 years ago? No way, we haven't even got close, you know. And that's something I've become acutely aware of very recently. I mean, my Ventures thing is really really fresh, uh, and it's a journey I've only really been going down for the last sort of, you know, year, 18 months. Um, so it's all quite— although I've been in, uh, the startup world in the sense of running businesses, in entertainment it's not considered the same, right? And a lot of the capital flow in entertainment is through a handful of corporates with their own agendas. So it's very different to venture capital and having a startup and going through that, that journey. Um, and so this is all quite fresh to me. Um, but that is definitely a big learning of mine. Like, if you don't have that um, and those abilities really, then actually businesses can potentially suffer as a consequence. But equally, you don't want too much of that because otherwise you're just going to go out there, probably blow a load of money, and before you even learn anything really, find yourself with no opportunity to pivot. Um, yeah.

My final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off in your career journey, like coming out of university, you would have had a certain idea of what success might go on to look like. Yeah, fast forward with everything you've learned, achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

It's definitely changed. Success was, uh, money, uh, kudos, you know, all that kind of like ego-driven stuff for sure. Um, and you know, I, I enjoyed it to be fair when I first started having success, but now for me success is much more supportive. It's, um, it's about, uh, being there, showing up, being able to deliver for the people that you are involved with and you want in your life. Um, and it's, um, you know, finding like consistency and happiness, which kind of combined in what you do, um, that for me makes me much more content than the rest of it. Don't be wrong, everyone needs to make money and everyone should be focused on making money, and I think that's a really important thing for people to never ever ever forget. If you're not making money, you're not getting anywhere. But making money in itself honestly doesn't do enough, uh, particularly as you get older. There has to be more substance to that success, basically. Yeah.

Joshua, thanks so much for coming on.

All good, thank you for having me. Nice to chat.