Latimer King, CDO @ British Esports

Lap, welcome to the podcast. You're a bit of a different one to what we've had on the podcast before. A lot of the industries people know a lot about, but you're involved in esports, which is a new industry. If you could just tell us a little bit about what that is exactly, what is esports, what does it mean to you?

I'd say esports, well, the raw definition would be it's human versus human on competitive video gaming. So basically, instead of you playing, for example, chess on a computer or Candy Crush forever, That's you versus the computer, but competitive video gaming, aka esports, is human versus human, which would be over, for example, Call of Duty or a first-person shooter.

Yeah, and you're CDO, Chief Development Officer, of a company that's involved within esports. Could you just tell us about what your current involvement in esports is?

My current role is quite a new role, actually, and for what I'm going into, which is more the investment side of things. So, for instance, we've just launched this boutique fund in esports, and my role would be to sort of, you know, help manage other companies that we sort of invest in, or view other projects, or help get investors into the company.

So, everybody played games as a kid. Yeah. And it's something that, you know, I'm passionate about, you were passionate about as a kid. How do you get into esports then? Like, what is the avenue. So you like games, what's the next stage there?

See, that's exactly where we sort of started in the space, was, you know, we didn't see like a correct transition into the space for, you know, the next generation or people who are just really passionate and enthusiastic as children and wanting to see sort of the commercial side and elements of it. I mean, just diverting the question, I will come back, but, uh, you know, it's such a massive industry. It's larger than the music and movie industry combined, which is, you know, obscene. If you look at Call of Duty, for example, as a franchise, it's larger than Star Wars or Marvel, which are the largest movie franchises out there in terms of net revenue. But how would one really get into it? For instance, work that we've really tried to advocate has been a lot of non-for-profit work in our main federation, which is British Esports Federation. We have partnered with Pearson and we offer a a variety of A-levels, GCSEs, and soon-to-be university qualifications across the nation. And that being said, we also do a lot of national championships, which you can start in your school and play against other schools, just to sort of build out the ecosystem and infrastructure and engage children from a younger age, because the career opportunities are really, really endless in esports. Keep in mind, you know, when, From the development of a game to an actual tournament being produced, it requires everything from marketing to business to the music industry to the production side of things and the movie and film. So yeah, I mean, there's just plenty of avenues. What would I say going out to someone looking to get involved in the space? I believe it— well, it depends what entrance you want to go in. Graphic design, you can come into a lot of esports teams or companies or merchandise going as a designer, and that can lead you up the rank if you want to go through there. Or if you want to come in from the production side, you can come in as a games tester. Or if you're at the top end level and really have that time to practice and put in the hard hours, you know, you can really be a pro player, which, you know, is what everyone dreams of, I think. I mean, I can— I'm sure you did as a kid, likewise. Sadly, I wasn't top of my game for too long. I'm blaming bad Wi-Fi for that one.

So you're currently involved in esports and you're developing as a CDO and you're learning that career role better as you go on. But what experiences were you doing before this company, related to esports or not, that prepared you for this role initially?

When I was around 16 or 17, still at school, I set up my own business with my friend at the time, which was e-commerce and dropshipping, which, you know, while I was studying my course at school, which was business development, you know, I found myself learning more from a real-life scenario, which, you know, created a great outcome. We were very happy and successful with that, but I obviously chose the latter to continue my studies at the time. But, you know, translating that over to the esports space and where that's brought me to my current position, I've had a few roles within the space. Some of them being marketing development. Again, one of my other passions is, you know, the creativity behind how you can market and engage a new fan base, which is, you know, one of the bizarre things around the esports space where, you know, larger companies are, you know, wanting to come in. It's because our generation is so, you know, hidden on, you know, weird little places on the internet. It's like, you know, having a whole demographic watching a live esports tournament at one moment in time is a really good opportunity for a larger brand to come in. But yeah, so that would've been sort of the marketing stage of my career, and then also developing and managing teams, having looked sort of down that avenue, has been fantastic.

Yeah, and I mean, personally, I do history, and the reason why I started this podcast is to try and find out what I wanna do, and why I got you on to speak here today is 'cause I know very little about the esports space, but it's, you know, Liking games as a kid and also just you explaining that you can kind of have any role within it. What are the kind of people you're looking to bring onto the team? What kind of people do you think are suited to the esports industry?

It's the same with sort of any other industry. We're not trying to be different. We're just, you know, pointing out and trying to excel in industry which has been sort of maybe underfunded in the past, especially for UK. That's one thing we're really trying to grow in the esports industry is just bring the UK and make it a bit more official in the sense we have a— where we can have a few more esports companies which are grown straight out of the UK and maybe teams.

You talk about all the success that esports is having and how it's developing in Britain. Where do you want to see the industry in 5 years? What do you want to see being done more of.

So let me set the scene right now. So again, this is more close to home for me because at the moment in the esports space, if we were to compare this to any other sport right now is, yeah, for instance, all esports tournaments right now, you know, they're all streamed on free-to-watch platforms like Twitch or YouTube, which is not great for the industry at all. Because you've got, you know, a cost per spend per viewer at the moment would be $1.62. And that could come from a donation to a streamer or, you know, the tournament organizer or to the platform itself, YouTube. Whereas compared to a normal sport, you're paying up to £20 a match. And that, you know, that's the same for boxing, rugby, tennis, majority of sports. What we are looking for in the space within the next 5 years would be, you know, a larger sponsor or, or a larger media company to come get involved. Unfortunately, within the last 6 months, we've just seen Sky realize this. They've realized they've lost a lot of their viewership, or at least the demographic has changed. They see a lot of maintenance with their older viewers, you know, growing with them, watching their sport. But what they've seen is a drop-off of younger people because, you know, they're all online watching these free-to-play tournaments at the same time. So they've just done a partnership with an esports team called Excel, which is, you know, a great step in the right direction. 5 years' time, I'd love to see the same treatment that other sports get because, you know, it's the same athletes, same time, same hours.

Yeah.

And same infrastructure that we could definitely help build out.

Yeah. So what's interesting to me and anyone who is currently in the space and has got into it is that With all these new industries, say YouTubers, kids want to be a YouTuber nowadays. Parents have a certain idea of what YouTube may be, of what esports may be, and they might, you know, some might look down at it. It's not a proper career. I want you to try and be a lawyer, I want you to try and be a doctor. But you're playing a game, you're getting really good at it, and you're beating your mates, and that's kind of what, as a kid, you know, the best thing that can come from sports, what I had, is that you can just beat your mate at it, you know, and that's 'Best of Comfort,' but now you can actually make more money in this industry than you can make in almost any other career. What do you say to people that need that extra push to get into the career, that extra like motivations that, you know, kind of maybe go against what everybody's saying about games and sport or even YouTubers?

I think you've definitely got two questions in there, one of them being, which I'll tackle, is, you know, is this parent and this older generation not sort of understanding the the real life opportunities that a new emerging industry can bring you. I'm not saying esports is, I mean, we're probably around 20, 25 years old as an industry now, but it's just becoming more acknowledged and more used by a younger audience because of the upgrade in technology and infrastructure we've had. But what I would say to an older generation looking in is, we're not having to do the same, We don't have the same opportunities that they had in the sense, you know, it's not the same as like a 9-to-5 now. You are seeing, you know, YouTubers, you know, earning millions and millions. But exactly, the career opportunities that it brings you. And for example, for me, using myself as a case study, is at school, I mean, I'm sure you know, I was probably more of a quiet kid, definitely more introverted at the time. I was really fortunate, you know, I believe esports really helped me build up my social skills and there There are other great studies that have been conducted where, you know, it definitely prevents Alzheimer's as well, the more you get older, for the memory function. And it's great sort of reaction timing. And yeah, it combats loneliness as well. So we've done a lot of pilots to help with the Army, Navy, and some police forces across the nation to help get kids off the street as well, to stop crime, to sort of start tournaments, friendly competition rather than real-life violence. You know, we just hope parents would consider and take more time, you know, looking into rather than just reading headlines, which again, you know, drafted up by people who have taken no interest or knowledge or care to look into the industry.

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Some people talk online about how gaming is similar to gambling. Have you seen any crossover between the two in your industry, or do you think it's completely different?

I'd, I'd say at the moment, I mean, it's quite sad actually. Because what we've seen in the space at the moment is, you know, our demographic right now is probably aging between 12 to 26, you know, of our main demographic in the whole industry internationally. And what we've seen a lot of, there are big influencers in the space, whether that be YouTubers or streamers, Twitch streamers, whatever streaming platform they be on, or even esports teams. At the moment, what we're seeing is, you know, heavy, heavy promotion to a much younger audience, which just has no financial education. And because, and I'm talking specifically about, you know, gambling being labeled as a gaming sort of platform. So it will be, it'll look gamified, it'll have, you know, leveling up platforms or facilities within it, but it's a raw gambling website. And what's happening, this has made such easy access for a younger audience to get on board. And you know, they can just lose so much money without realizing. Because of their lack of financial knowledge. Again, something we're really gonna take a stand in in the space because it's just not right. And I just don't like how they're a younger generation themselves and they're not looking after the even younger generation. So one of the things we're trying to do to combat that is with our British Esports Federation, we've partnered up with IBM and we're making this online harm safety platform. It's not directly associated with anti-gambling, but it's just a safe way for kids to interact online. I mean, I'm sure— I mean, how old were you when you first went online for gaming?

Like 10?

Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculously early, isn't it? I'd say same as myself, or if not, even younger. And because, you know, we have such access to anybody out there, which is, you know, good and bad, but no one's being verified. It's very anonymous. So You know, we're creating this platform where it's ID verification, same skill base in their game, and same, same game, same nationality, or you can change that. And it's just a good, safe place where, you know, you're understood.

So if you were looking to go into esports, you know, as an actual gamer or just maybe to get involved with a team, what are some teams that people should look towards? What are some ones you'd recommend?

But to us, it starts with the game, then what you follow as well. I don't know how many people listening are familiar with particular esports teams out there, but they do start at grassroots level. And that's most of the sort of investments that I've been looking at recently, again, with my team, are teams who have just been starting out of a dormitory. It's 4 guys or 4 girls, whatever it may be. Who've just collectively got better and better and put in the time and hours. A lot of people would do is follow a personality. And what a lot of these pro teams don't have is both. So you can either follow like a streamer, which I'm sure you've watched back in the day. We've all spent our fair share of time on YouTube.

Yeah.

But, you know, they're not the best of their game. They're just a good personality to watch, to be entertained.

Yeah.

But if you're going from the raw sport competitive level, then yeah, you definitely want to look for a Premier League or higher type team, then stick with them.

Yeah, I think what's interesting to me about this industry and having spoken to Chip, is that as a student, you know, listening to everything you're saying, I can now view the industry as something where, say I was someone who's always very good at gaming and I just wanted to get into it, like, you know, say I was playing Fiverr side with my mates, I can actually join a grassroots level team and actually see if I can make it into the industry in a way that you didn't know existed before.

Yeah.

And also, I'm a student, I'm studying history, or I'm studying law, or I'm studying like marketing. I can actually go into this industry as well in terms of like a, you know, I'm not a gamer, but I'm involved in the industry. Like there's many avenues you can go down. Individually for you, what is a bit different to the other episodes recorded is that, you know, I like to ask people about what they perceive a successful career as for them. And because they're normally going into the industry where you can— it's more tangible what success looks like, you know, maybe getting that top role on an investment bank or getting your company to this place. Like, I wonder for you, what does success look like for you in this industry? You know, in the next 5, maybe 10 years, what would you like to see yourself doing?

It's more the growth of the industry. I believe there's a lot of kids who were like me, um, who were really passionate, maybe a bit quiet, bit introverted, and, uh, just didn't really know sort of a right career path, or, you know, maybe school wasn't for them, or exams, um, or, or they just struggled with, you know, any social skills or anxiety. I really think, you know, that the more you do, the more you play, but it's all a balance. Where that takes me in terms of the industry is You know, I would love to see these kids emerge through the confidence of esports and building up a great support network through that. And, you know, just, you know, having a go in, you know, the multiple ways you can enter the industry and whatever career path that may be. There is definitely something for everyone in the space from what I've seen. And yeah, we're really happy with the growth so far that we're at, especially in the UK. It is very emerging up north, hence why we, we have, we've basically just acquired this old car dealership opposite the Sunderland Stadium, which we're gonna convert into a load of classrooms and a bit of an esports arena. And yeah, it will be sort of the esports hub for the UK. We're calling it the National Esports Performance Center. And yeah, you, you know, you can go if you're a team, if you're already a well-established esports team, or if you're just a group of mates, you can go up for a weekend and just go play games until whatever time in the morning.

Yeah, I think with this industry as well, when you're really young, like say you're at school or 16 and you're having careers fairs, it's very hard to get passionate about something that's so far away. Like, you know, law, you have to do years of university training and whatever. Esports is something you can get passionate about from a very young age. You can get passionate about playing the games, you can get passionate about getting better in it, and then actually, before you know it, you're entering an industry as a young person. What's maybe some advice to a younger generation, you know, maybe start of university or before at school, some advice you'd give them on, like, looking into the industry and really understanding what their role could be within it?

One of the main things I've been doing for the last a couple years or so is finding synergy with other emerging industries or well-established industries and finding, you know, how can I relate that to esports, or what can we do to enhance a project in esports, or, you know, what can we make work. I would expect, you know, people who are slightly fascinated or very interested who are doing something they're not, you know, enjoying to really try and correlate that to what could be inside esports. If they're doing, you know, for example, a marketing degree and they'd prefer to be doing esports, that's still, you know, changeable and interplaceable within the esports industry.

Yeah. Yeah, so I asked about younger people, maybe at school or at start of university. What would you say for the people that have graduated or are in an industry that maybe could translate into esports, but they feel stuck in their life? Like, what would you say to them?

I think to them, I would definitely encourage you to look at who you could help because you may have some experience in another industry, which, for example, an esports organization doesn't currently have. As I just said before, like an esports team, they're always looking for managers or the correct people to follow or agents. Yeah, there's plenty of room for new faces in the space. And we, you know, we really want to encourage that. But yeah, there's definitely experience which needs to be balanced in the space, and I think a lot of new people would bring that.

Yeah, and I think everything you said today, as someone who knew very little about esports and just, you know, I like games and I like watching people play games as well, but I didn't actually know how feasible it could be for me to get involved in the industry. I feel very inspired. I feel curious to maybe go into that in the future. So I thank you for what you said, and cheers coming on, mate.