Leo Olsson, Viral Creator @ TikTok

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today is a very special day, uh, we're joined for the very first time with co-host Phil, who's, uh, also my boss as it happens. Uh, Phil, if you could just quickly explain a little bit about what EazyA is before I introduce our very special guest.

Definitely, thank you, and thanks Peter for hosting. Yeah, I'm Phil, co-founder of EazyA. We are one of the largest Web3 education apps, if not the biggest, You can think of us pretty much like Duolingo, but for coding or for Web3. So if you're excited about learning Web3 or emerging technology, blockchain, that's what we're here for. But enough about me. I think we can hand over very quickly to our special guest. And well, over to you, Peter Wood, to say a couple of words.

Yeah, so yeah, we're joined with Leo Olson. Leo went to LSE. Dropped out to pursue his dream of, uh, content creation. He's now grown a massive following, you know, over 500,000 followers across all platforms. And, uh, yeah, we're very, very lucky to hear about his journey so far.

Thanks for having me. Welcome, it's a pleasure.

Yeah, so if you could just start off by sort of— well, let's start the beginning, shall we? You're at LSE, you've come over from Jersey, you know, you've been doing content creation, you know, sort of in your free time, like, get to grips with it. And then you probably realize that you're pretty good at this and you want to give it more of a crack. You want to see what you could do outside of university. Talk me through that decision to go from, you know, I'm sure very content at a very good university doing a great degree, to actually dropping out and pursuing something a little bit more alternative.

Sure. I guess if, if I were to be fully honest, I would say LSE wasn't really the starting point. The starting point for me was I was quite lucky in that when I turned 18, I decided that that was when I was going to have this crisis of what am I doing with my life. And I then decided to write letters to all the leaders of the world, asking them for life advice on what I should do and how you're meant to live. And that was kind of the starting point to me realising that I could go out and do things that were slightly outside the norm and crucially I can make videos about it and hopefully inspire some people along the way. So that was kind of my starting point and my thinking was when I went to LSE, I went to study International Relations, so kind of fits quite well, but I went there with the idea that I was going to be able to do both. I was going to be able to do kind of traditional uni experience and also go out and make these amazing videos. And the thing is, that just didn't really happen. And I actually found being in London, I think in part, and also being at a competitive uni, you're surrounded by these people where money becomes the primary metric of success and all everyone is talking about is consultancy, investment banking, getting internships. And I felt that the longer I was there, the more I started thinking that what I'd initially decided I wanted to do when I was 18 was maybe actually not realistic, and maybe I had been young and naive, and what I needed to do was get a big sort of traditional corporate job. And I think when I was starting to feel that happen I maybe took a step back and literally I remember in the second term of uni I was sat, I was meant to be revising for some exam and instead I was sat making a pros and cons list of staying at university and that kind of started that thought. And then I think over time the more I thought about it, the more it felt like university was something I really enjoyed and really liked to do but it wasn't the ultimate thing I'd said I wanted to do. And I think for most people growing up is saying goodbye to all these childhood dreams that you've had, and I decided that I didn't want to do that, and so I wanted to leave uni and go and do something else.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of different routes we could take it from there, but I'm curious as to how at the age of 18, you know, you developed this mindset that you were already worrying about, like, you were your career and your, like, the fulfillment of the work you're doing day to day. Because I think a lot of people, maybe it's the UK education system, I'm not sure what it is, but people kind of just cruise. And, you know, you go to uni because everyone else is going to uni, and then you, you know, even after uni you might do a grad scheme because everyone else is doing grad scheme. But it's very rare that at such a young age people really start thinking, oh, what is my passion? How do I actually pursue it?

Sure. I think there's a few factors at play. And first and foremost, I think there's just a lot of luck involved in that. But to give some kind of advice, I guess, to people who are feeling that they don't have that passion or that drive, I think there's a really great thing about when you start to try hard at anything, whether it's the gym, whether it's your academics, being social. The sort of moment you start becoming a "tryhard," you now become seen as someone who is persistent and someone who works hard. And therefore, if you're the person who does those things and doesn't achieve anything, it just feels like a waste of time. And so I think it's quite a perpetuating cycle. And I was just quite lucky in that I maybe started to try in school slightly earlier on, and that perpetuated over time to where I started viewing myself as someone who works hard to get success. And the moment you think in those terms, you start believing that there aren't many things that you can't do if you don't just work for it. Um, and of course, I was super lucky to have kind of parents who, who gave me those opportunities and allowed me to, to go out and do that.

I found it funny that you mentioned sort of wasting time and you're concerned with that, where that's also kind of how you look at content as well, is that you want to tell the best story and deliver as much value in the short space of time. It's actually very linked to the project that you're working on at the moment where Okay, so say you do want to make sort of short snappy content. I actually, you know, I love YouTube. I've always consumed it. I prefer it as a form of media to television, and I find it, yeah, just the most value, the most entertaining in the short space of time. There's a difference in actually being able to produce that content. Like, when I go on TikTok, like, I just feel very inept and incapable. Like, when did you actually realize that you— is this something that was natural to you, this like storytelling and snappy ability?

I don't think so necessarily. I think there's an interesting thing of just focusing on personal experience, and I think life really translates to making great content, at least the way I do it. I'm very focused on story, and when you think about the greatest stories in your own life or the greatest achievements you've had, At the end of the day, they always come from some level of discomfort or adversity or conflict. Those are the stories that are interesting. And so in the same way, when you're trying to tell a great story through video, whether it's a MrBeast video or whether it's one of my own, what you're looking at is a set of characters who are trying to complete some kind of challenge and there's some difficulty attached, all the story really is, is overcoming some kind of adversity. And I think when you think of it in those terms about who is my character, what do they want to do, it becomes a lot easier. And similarly, if you want your own life to be a great story, it's thinking about what are the things that I want to do and what do I have to get through to get those things.

So when you're telling a story, I mean, I find it fascinating because we do a lot of TikTok, we make a lot of videos. It's more— I mean, there are different types of content. There's some storytelling content, there's some which is just sort of, you know, entertainment. On TikTok, there's a lot which is just the mind-numbing content. Your content is special because it does tell that story. What I find fascinating is breaking down that story, because I think you're absolutely right. I think everybody has a story, everybody has some sort of narrative, right? Where, you know, maybe they're at school, maybe they're faced with a crossroads, they're thinking about what do they do after university, You know, you face the same thing yourself, but there are a lot of people who are in your shoes but who aren't maybe necessarily able to articulate it. How do you, like, what is the framework? Or if you were, maybe you don't have a framework, but in your mind, how do you identify those bits? So let's say that, you know, we're doing a live podcast right now. You looked out into the audience and you could, you know, ask them, speak to them about what they've done in their life, and they might not have a great compelling story talking to you right now. But what would you identify in order to maybe after, you know, 5 minutes of speaking to them, be able to say, okay, this is what's interesting about your story and this is how I would importantly, you know, as Peter said, condense it into like a 60-second story.

Sure.

I think, look, to go into kind of the more technical framework, short-form content, the nature of the game, it's really important for those first 3 seconds to be super interesting. Everyone talks about the hook. I guess that's obvious, and I think that's a buzzword that a lot of people like to use, but it's true. So having just a great opening sentence. But in terms of giving something that people can apply to anything from a pitch deck to a song, what it's about is it's having the kind of beginning, which is that context of who are you and what are you trying to do. There's the conflict, which is what you're trying to do is really hard. There are challenges that arise, and normally for a great story, whether it's artificially or real, the stakes are really high. Whether it's, you know, your livelihood or what your friends think of you, there are stakes involved. And then in the end, you want some kind of end, a resolution, which can be you achieving the thing, or what I found on social works really well for people is getting close to achieving the thing, but there's still that extra bit to go. And so you get that buy-in from your audience of stick around because there's so much more to come.

Yeah, I really like that. I think we saw that really play out with like Ryan Trahan's penny challenge, right? Where every time it was like each one was its own story so everybody could join and enjoy it. But at the same time, there was something that hadn't quite happened, right? He hadn't quite delivered the penny to like MrBeast, Yeah. Or he hadn't quite finished his journey. Give us like a couple of hooks that you find work really well in a person's story. For example, like, you know, somebody who's listening to this, they just be able to take it away and just like experiment with it. Like maybe they're launching like a product or a new brand, they could go away and they could like launch a TikTok video and be like, okay, this is a really cool hook that I could use or something to experiment with. Like where would they start?

Sure. I think the simplest one and the one that's most often used is this is how I did a seemingly stupid thing, uh, to try and achieve my goal. So this is how I left my 6-figure job to try and start my own company. That's, that's like a really easy, um, hook to implement, and I think that's a great place to start. Uh, I think another one There's a guy who I know through Instagram, he's a guy called Adam Boro, really interesting guy. I'm pretty sure he interned at NASA, very smart guy, and then went into TikTok a bit like Mark Rober almost. And he makes these really cool videos where he starts by saying, "I heard that apparently if you..." And that can be, you know, "I heard that apparently if you pay $50 to get on a flight to Mexico and then get another one to Peru..." And the end of the video ends up being him going to Machu Picchu to see the view. And actually, when he gets there, it's really cloudy. But I think that sort of thing of, I heard that apparently if you do this thing, I think is really cool because it plays on this thing that is what makes most content great, which is someone's doing something that you've always considered but you've never actually done. And I guess in my case, that was leaving university, which is probably something that a lot of students think about doing, but most people maybe a bit more resilient than me and, and choose to stick it through.

When you dropped out of university, you wanted to go get a job and you focused primarily on the startup space. I think one thing that probably is underestimated by students and people looking for a job, you know, you get told how to make your CV this and that and how to enhance everything, but in an interview you realistic. It's your opportunity to tell yours. This person's never met you. This is your opportunity to tell your story in a compelling, engaging way to make them seem that you, they— you can't not find out how that story precedes being in your company. Um, did you apply, you know, what you use to make your content when you're actually going to get your first job at Lucky Egg?

Uh, so my first job was at Krispy Kreme, uh, but That's neither here nor there. Look, the really practical advice to anyone who's trying to get a job, whether it's at a publishing company or a startup, is I really like Alex Banayan's Third Door concept, which is this idea of whether it's a job, whether it's another goal you have, you should think of life and the things you want like a nightclub. And the way of thinking about this is there's 3 entrances. So there's the first door, which is general admission, you know, the ticket that's the cheapest that everyone's bought, and you have to stand in a really long queue. And to be honest, you might not get let in because the founder thinks you're not good-looking enough, or he thinks you're too drunk, whatever it is. It's cheap, but it's no guarantee of success. Then there's door number 2, which is the VIP entrance. So this is a great entrance, no queue, you go in straight away, But the problem is, if you don't know the right person, you can't access the VIP entrance. So for most people, that's 2 doors that they either can't use or don't want to use. And so then you have to think of the 3rd door. And the 3rd door is you go around the back, you maybe find the bartender who's having a smoke, you strike up a conversation with him about the football match that was on last night. You say, mate, I just really want to get in, do you mind kind of just steeking me in through the back door. That's the third door. And the thing is, is the third door is a bit outside the box, uh, it's pretty hard to do, and so most people don't consider doing it. But when I was looking at getting a job, I spent about a month getting rejected consistently, uh, by trying to write a great CV and write good cover letters and apply to the right jobs. And so instead, I figured what I need to do is I need to try and implement this third door idea. And so I used— Tim Ferriss has this great cold email template which you can find online if you just Google Tim Ferriss cold email. It opens with a sentence to the effect of, this message will take you 30 seconds to read because I know you're a super busy person. And in my message, I went to founders and I said, hey, I just left university, I have a following of this many followers, I want to help give advice to people on how to get a job at a startup. Would you give me 15 minutes of your time on a call to give me some advice that I'll share with my audience, and it will be some free promo for you? And by going through that method, which I don't think anyone else was doing, at the very least in the founders' minds and the people who I was looking to chat to, I stood out whether or not they were looking for someone in my role. And then from there, I was able to— in one of those cases, I ended the call and they said, hey, we really love what you're doing, we would love it if you considered applying for the role we have open. 2 weeks later, after meeting them twice, you know, they never saw my CV, but I think just through the kind of hustle and initiative, they figured this is the sort of person who we want in a company, um, that's really early on and needs to be scrappy and needs to do kind of inventive, unique things?

Yeah, I mean, with the content creation, there's been a, there's been a big spike in recent years, I'd say, of people actually wanting to become a YouTuber or wanting to become a TikToker, and It was clear that you've got, like, you know, before you even were thinking about jobs while at uni, you were making that content anyway, and it's clear that you had something there. But why is it you've not pursued to just be a wholehearted, like, creator, you know, just a YouTuber? You've clearly thought, okay, I know I've got that, but I want to still explore my content creation in a brand sense, a startup sense.

Sure, I think The, the thing about making content, and I think MrBeast is a great example of this, is you need to do something interesting to make videos about. You can't just work harder at making content because at a certain point it's just you sat in your office and you don't have anything to talk about because you have no life experience. So with that in mind, I was conscious of the fact that leaving university and having no form of income to then try and make content, doing interesting things seemed very hard and out of reach. And so a happy compromise was going to work somewhere wherein there is stuff going on because it's a real company where things are happening, and also they, they have a budget to fund cool video ideas and things like that. So I think part of it was just me being super practical, and also I think it's a case of It's way easier to be an expert at an intersection of multiple things than a broader category. So I think by becoming the person who was good at short-form video for small companies, I made it a lot easier for myself to be valuable because that was an intersection of things that there weren't any other people out there. There are lots of people who are way better at making short videos than I am. There are probably lots of people who would be a more valuable first hire at a small company. But if you were looking for both of those things, I offer a unique insight, and that's been, you know, what I've been able to use to now dovetail into 60 Second University, which is my company wherein I help companies do exactly that, make great short-form videos to tell their story.

And on that note of starting your own thing, sure. So Eazy-E, of course, we, you know, we're all about startups, helping people make their own startup, starting with just knowing nothing, bringing them all the way up to speed. I love the— when you first mentioned 60 Second University to me, I thought it's a great name, right? You know, what if you could compress a 3 or 4-year university degree into 30— into Into 60 Seconds. Before we go into, you know, 60 Second University in a bit more detail, from your experience and from what you've done so far, what's your advice for people who want to go beyond that idea stage? You know, ideas are a dime a dozen. Everybody says, oh, you know, I had the idea for Uber, or I had the idea for, you know, whatever, this and that. What's your advice for people who want to just get beyond that and like to get out of that sort of, you know, thinking about ideas and actually start implementing it?

I think people have their focus, at least early on, in the wrong place. And I'm completely ripping this from Alex Hormozi. But it's this idea of, it's a lot easier to run from the things that you're afraid of than to run towards the things you actually want. Like, there's this common study that's referenced where they attached pulleys to rats and put cheese in front of them and saw how hard they pulled. And then they attach pulleys to rats and played the sound of a cat behind them. And you can kind of guess in which case they pull a bit harder. So I think the way in which I have always pushed myself has been thinking about what the outcome is if I don't make the switch, rather than what the outcome is if I do. And I think that's an unsustainable approach to life long term. But I think early on, get really real with yourself about what does your life look like if you don't start taking any action, you know, and is that who you want to be? And if it's not, then make a change.

Very much like Jeff Bezos when he saw the internet and he was like, well, if I miss out on this, I'm never going to forgive myself for missing out on the internet boom. Do you feel like the, I guess, like the industry that you're in is a similar similar feeling to maybe what Jeff Bezos felt when he was like, I'm quitting everything, I'm putting everything away, you know, I'm leaving a great job, and I am just going out on my own to build Amazon. Do you feel like you're on the precipice of that sort of thing? Is that what's driving you? Or is it something else?

I'm not sure. Yeah, comparing yourself to Jeff Bezos is a bold move. And I don't think I'm ready to do that. I would probably say it's just that thing of, I've ended up at a place where the thing I like to do is also the thing that I'm good at, and I know that if I just work harder at the thing, I'm hopefully in a position to do well. And my ultimate goal has always just been to make my own content and to tell stories, and teaching companies to do that gives me the means to keep my own content kind of pure and not have to do any brand deals. Instead, give those companies the skills to go out and do it themselves so that I don't have to be involved.

I'm not sure if while you're at university if you did any accelerators or anything, but my experience of accelerators was that you go in there like kind of, you know, maybe with a rough idea and it it very quickly becomes a case of you need to iterate, you need to iterate, you need to idea, you need to idea. And those are all just like these buzzwords that to somebody who's never done anything on entrepreneurship, like, it doesn't actually really mean that much. And I think ideas can get like lost then, and you don't even learn from failing, if that makes sense. You never even go ahead with like one of the ideas. And I feel like, you know, you either have one motivator for starting, or one or the other of these for starting a business. Like, you are very passionate about the cause, you're very annoyed that the problem— that's the solution to that problem doesn't exist. And like, with you, it's clear that you had a passion for content creation, but when it came to like actually identifying the brands need to be elevated in terms of short-form content, was it a case of like looking at brands' content and being like, like, what is this? Like, what do you— you know, even some of the biggest brands, you're like, how are they like investing so much money into content creation and still not being able to capture the audience which they're trying to address?

Sure, I think we live in a total economy kind of thing of now the most valuable thing is when you had TV 30 years ago, you kind of got used to sitting through the ads, that was part of the thing. Maybe you get up and go make a sandwich, but The ads are kind of there and occasionally you watch them because they're semi-interesting. Now we're all so programmed when we're on TikTok or Instagram or whatever it is, when we see now we just swipe straight past. There's, there's very little interaction and for you to get interaction on paid content is a lot more difficult. That's not to say that it can't be done, lots of businesses are built on a successful paid ad strategy. But I think where the cheap attention is, the literally free attention is, is in brands just making organic content about their company, telling their story. It just feels like a very underutilized resource. And I think for me, it speaks to why I would buy from one brand over another. It's normally not based off product benefits necessarily, it's a lot more about what I think the brand feels like and what they stand for. There's a reason that I drink Red Bull instead of Monster because I just think Red Bull is way cooler and I respect that they spend their marketing budget on doing really cool events. So I think this is the same thing of, I just think brands are focusing on the wrong thing and hopefully I can help them focus on the right thing.

It's definitely true in that when I get like an ad really forced upon me on Instagram, like, you know, just like a This Is Us, buy us, like, you know, and they've just clearly put all their money into that. I think part of me is thinking like, yes, I'm now looking at it, yes, I might even click on the website, but there's no like nothing really like being like, you have to buy this. So which, to be honest, if you're a student especially, like, you're operating on that kind of budget, you need to be really compelled to actually go and buy something or sign up something. I think, you know, what content can do is create that word-of-mouth conversation as well. And word of mouth has always been the best way to grow a business. Like, you know, before social media, that's how businesses grew. So if you can generate that through the kind of content you do, like, it completely makes sense. And so if you would say in 60 seconds, let's say, why someone would, you know, sign up to your, your program, like, why a brand that maybe they've raised a bunch of capital, they're doing really well, they've got great employees, but they're just missing that next step in terms of marketing. What are you going to give them?

60 seconds, huh? I have my best shot. I think when it comes to movies or stories, characters, because you can't really feel what they're feeling, they are what they do. You know, if a character acts brave, whether or not they feel that way, they are brave. To you. And so I think similarly, the reason that companies should invest in organic content is because it says a lot about what type of company you are. Putting investment in just making a cool video, telling a cool story, and doing a thing that is less so for sales and more so for the culture and more so for giving value to your audience, it says a lot about what the type of company you are. And I think in the long term, those are the kinds of companies that win. That's my 60 seconds. To give a kind of slightly more long-winded answer, there's a story about when Phil Knight, the founder of Nike, he was giving a keynote about Nike and its branding, and he asked everyone in the audience to stand up if they ran once a week. And then he said, anyone who runs 3 times a week, "Stay standing, everyone else sit down." About half the room sits down. And then he says, "Everyone in the room who runs 5 days a week, stay standing. Everyone else sit down." Then let's say 25% are left standing. And then finally he says, "The people in the room who run rain or shine and do it every day because it is who they are and it's what they do, stay standing." It's maybe 5 people standing. And he says, 'Nike isn't for anyone else, it's just for you.' And I think that speaks to something about the brand of— that's why it's cool, because they're for those diehard people. And I think if you want to be a successful company, you need to be for those diehard fans. You can't be for the masses.

Do you think that there's one bit which is like the story that he's telling there, but then there's like what Nike does as a company, where a lot of people, I think most people who wear Nike probably don't run once a week, once a month. Like, how do you think they split that up? Like, maybe that's what they do in the advertising to inspire people, and then there's like, you know, having to cater to everybody.

I guess branding is a bit about, uh, what it, what it kind of means of— I would hope when we've been working at Lucky Egg, our whole pitch has been Lucky Egg is the board games company that I used to work at. Our whole pitch was we make games to get people off their phones, and whether or not people buy the games and don't go on their phones, I think is secondary to do they feel that buying the thing will help them do that, right? And so I think similarly with Nike, you buy the shoe because you think it makes you more like that person, right? So I don't think you necessarily need to split it because you're You're selling a dream and if people buy into it, they'll hopefully buy your products.

Yeah, and I think, well, the reason I'm really fascinated by this, obviously, like, we do a lot of social media, but also one thing that we've been discussing is, Peter, you're thinking about setting up, like, you know, some telling the story of the EZA events, right? And, you know, the stuff that we do here. I mean, I'd love to hear, I mean, I know this is, you know, obviously, like, you know, this is the sort of Graduate Guide podcast, powered by Easy8 with, but also, you know, it's about us learning stuff from you as well. And, you know, the audience as well and learning together. I love maybe, you know, in my final question, I would love to sort of see an exploration between like, you know, Peter and Leo, just briefly about like, you know, what would that look like in terms of telling a story? Maybe Peter, you start, or Leo, in terms of like, what story are you thinking about telling?

Well, I think to be fair, we probably do share a similarity in that we both felt that university just wasn't quite the place for us to identify where we're best used. And a story that I want to tell but I wouldn't know how to in my own life, and I guess it all plays into how I end up at EZA and that journey, is like I guess it's identifying where you become valuable to somebody, like whether that's like, you know, within the company, in the stages before, like identifying within yourself, like, okay, for example, you know you're very good at making content and that's what your company's around, but at what point can you not rest on your laurels and be like, I need to learn how to be a good businessman? Like, how do you then tell your story of becoming a businessman, making financial models, like all these things? Like, it's It's a fascinating thing for people to really, I think, learn the pureness of what is actually happening in your life right now. Not just like the, oh, I did this, I partnered with this person, but like your ability to storytell in that sense, like tell the real hardships and the things that people don't see.

Sure. So I guess it— you start from a place of what do you want to do with the stuff you're making. And what I would say to literally anyone is the amount of people who I see on LinkedIn who have written a compelling piece about themselves and ended it with, and so, you know, I lost my job, and any roles in this sort of space, reach out to me. There are so many of those where they've successfully managed to get their job by doing that. And so I think you start with What do I want to do with my content? And that applies to the everyday person because I think there's— you can do so much if you just make a cool video, whether it's find a girlfriend or get a job. And so how much do I share? I think that comes down to what do I want my content to do? And for me, it's always been I just want to impart some form of value, some form of lesson from what I've learned through some kind of anecdote in my life by sharing a kind of life experience that I've had, and hopefully that speaks to someone enough to where they go out and do the thing that they wouldn't have otherwise done. So I think it's always just a case of whenever you do anything, what's the why? And then you can kind of figure out the tactics.

Yeah, and I think there is one final thing that I want to touch on before we finish up is, you know, you, you grew up in Jersey, right, which is an island off the coast of England, quite small island, small population. And then you've come to London and, you know, with LSE, and now you've stayed here to work and found your company. And what's your advice to someone coming from, you know, because London is, you know, it's made up to be this big, like, place where everything, everything happens. This is where you make your career. But like my dad once said to me, for example, um, if you treat London well, it'll treat you well. If you treat London badly, it'll treat you badly. Basically meaning that you need to really, like, really buy into what the opportunities enables you to do, like whether that's making the content in London, the people you get to meet, because 'Cause if you don't, you're paying a lot of money to live in a very small flat, probably an area that you would probably not, not as beautiful at least as an Ireland or Jersey. Yeah, like, what's your advice to someone coming to London? 'Cause everyone wants to do it at some point.

Sure, I think I recently saw a clip of Sam Altman where he was talking about, who's the founder of OpenAI for anyone who doesn't know, co-founder, he was saying that When you're early on in your career, people really underestimate the value of just grinding early on in your 20s, because that will compound throughout your life. The same way people tell you you need to start investing as early as possible or putting money into your pension. I think Alex Hormozi has this really good phrase, which is, you know, screw the S&P 500, I invest in the SME 500. And I think similarly, if you were going to move to London, my advice would be to just go that extra mile in the first few months. I remember when I first came to university, that kind of first week where I was there, I did just make an effort to chat to as many people as possible and make as many connections as possible because you don't want to get pigeonholed into a certain group of people, uh, and not making the most of those opportunities. So I think when you come to London— and now I think I'm trying to get away from it— but it's that thing of any coffee chat or any person who you think seems interesting, just trying to meet them, trying to chat to them. And then after a few months, you don't need to do that anymore because you're almost getting passive income on your network, you know, once you know enough people, they'll probably know someone who, you know, might be a good friend for you or things like that. So yeah, I think just go hard early on and it's gonna maybe feel a bit uncomfortable and you're gonna need to push yourself out your comfort zone, but if you just do that initially in the beginning, it makes things down the line a lot easier.

And my final question to you, and I ask all my guests the same question: when you first arrived at LSE and you had this idea of making content while you're at university, you would have had a certain idea of what success would then go on to look like in your career. You know, a couple years on, you know, having dropped out and worked and now setting up your own company, what is your idea of a successful career at this current stage?

I think it's definitely changed. I think there was a long period where, and look, it's still somewhat true, but where success to me just meant proving to people that I could do a thing, whatever that was. It was a lot about internally showing that I could achieve the things that I said I wanted to achieve. Now I think it's a lot more simple, and I think this reflects why I've left my job and decided to try and start my own thing. I think it was Woody Guthrie who said, "Success is someone who's able to wake up in the morning and go to bed at night and do exactly what they want in between." And I think that's the thing of just trying to maximize doing the things that I want to do every day, sort of having that— Tim Ferriss has a thing about crushing a Tuesday, with the idea being that you, you should have the goal that your average Tuesday is just a great day. So not like a day where you go parachuting out of a plane, but where the normal things you do actually make you quite happy. And I think for me, you know, if I exercise and I get 8 hours work done and I spend some time with my friends, it's a great day. That's all I really need. Love it, mate.

And, uh, yeah, you've been very valuable, had a lot of, uh— I don't know how you remembered so many quotes. It's quite— I think it's a skill in itself. But, um, yeah, I definitely couldn't do that. Uh, anyway, yeah, Phil, thanks so much for, for joining me. If your first time co-hosting with me, I'm sure there's many more to come. And, uh, yeah, Leo, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks, it's been a pleasure.

It's been great. Thanks. Cool. Thank you. Awesome.