Leone Baron, Community Lead @ MCJ Collective

Leonie, welcome to the podcast. If you could start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your job role for your company.

Awesome, thank you so much for having me. Um, yep, I'm Leonie, I'm Community Lead at MCJ Collective and also founder of Following the Footprints.

Yeah, and could you tell us a little bit more about what is exactly MCJ does and why you wanted to go work for them?

100%. Um, MCJ's goal is to break down knowledge silos and unleash problem-solving capacity, which is super exciting and super big and maybe a little bit ambiguous as well. But the way that we do that is via 3 pillars. So we have our content pillar. It all started with a podcast called My Climate Journey, where we dig into different climate tech companies and fascinating people in the space and also have a kind of skilled labor series as well and really hear from them and give them a platform. And that grew into a community. So the second pillar, which has just over 3,000 people online all over the world, all focused on climate, strong kind of makeup of entrepreneurs and investors, but also got a lot of explorers, job seekers, the whole range. And then the third and final pillar is our fund. So we also invest in climate tech startups, which is really, really exciting. And we've been very fortunate to make over 70+ investments to date in a whole range of companies, from adaptation to mitigation, based in Nigeria, based in the US, all over the world. It's a really, really exciting part of what we do.

Yeah, and looking at this company and sort of all the work experience you've done throughout your career, it seems that your passion is very much to do with the climate. I was wondering, how did that passion develop? When did it happen? And How has that passion made it more enjoyable or like given you more direction in your career?

Yeah, great question. Um, you know, I think it was something that I was in denial about for a little while, and I think the reason was because I didn't go and study anything that in my mind related to climate science. So I did a really interdisciplinary degree for my undergraduate. I did Arts and Sciences at UCL, so graduated with a BASc, which I think blows some people's minds. It's kind of a weird, weird thing. Um, so did a whole range of studies and modules and everything, and only did one module focused on, um, the Anthropocene, or, or more commonly, kind of modern era climate. Um, and so initially, kind of, you know, I knew I was passionate from a young age about— it kind of started as like animal rights, looking at the food on my plate, figuring out the relationship I have with what I'm consuming. I watched An Inconvenient Truth, um, by Al Gore when I was young, which I think so many people will quote as being a really kind of pivotal moment in their own climate journeys. Um, it goes right back to— I remember being cast as, um, the, like, shepherd in the school play and, like, refusing to eat lamb as a result in nursery. Um, but, like, all these little kind of things that I built up my interest in, kind of our stewardship of nature. Um, but I think in my head, because I hadn't gone to study, in quotations, climate, because obviously climate is huge, um, I hadn't gone to study it. That meant that there wasn't necessarily a viable career option in it, which was a huge misconception and something I'm really passionate about now. Um, but it really took a bit of an accidental turn in my career after I graduated, and then also quite literally one of my closest friends turning to me on the tube and being like, Leonie, nothing excites you as much as when you're talking about sustainability. For me to be like, ah, yeah, she's kind of right. Um, and kind of also myself giving myself permission to get involved in the space and to start writing and talking and interviewing people and, um, just kind of pushing through that imposter syndrome to start to work in the, again in quotations, broad space of climate. Um, and kind of just plowing ahead nonetheless. So it was kind of a really twisting and turning moment, but I think Um, there was a really clear moment about almost exactly 2 years ago where I realized that the path I was currently on— I was building out a community tool, so a software-based company, and was going through an accelerator to do so— and realized that that was all fun and that was great and I was really excited to be building a company, but ultimately it wasn't solely focused on climate. And I think I knew that there was just a mismatch of like my internal North Star motivations and what I was doing in my 9-to-5, and that was just a little bit too hard to ignore. So in a winding road, that's kind of led me to MCJ, and I think, you know, along that road there was a lot of climate anxiety as well. A lot of people will speak about how, you know, it's an overwhelming problem and it can be really negative, a lot of the press around it. It can be kind of like hard to dip into. It's almost easier to ignore sometimes. But I'm such a strong believer that the closer you work on solutions, the less anxious you feel about a problem. And so for me, being at MCJ has actually been one of the best things for my happiness and mental health because I feel so close to so many solutions and so many inspiring people who are building them. And it's made me less anxious about the problem because I do feel like we have a lot of the tools and capabilities and motivations and technologies to at least tackle it. It's still huge, but I feel like I'm at least kind of being in a productive environment to work on it. So yeah, long answer, but it's been a bit of a winding road, which has kind of ultimately resulted in me being in a community role in a climate-focused environment.

So we've established the passion, which is, which is definitely coming through here. What about that first step? So you're in the community role at this software company and you decide, I'm going to— I would like to work more on climate. What was the first steps you took in that pivot?

Yeah, so essentially, in kind of like, um, going kind of back even further, when I graduated, I went to work for a natural energy drink company, um, because I was a brand ambassador for them at university, and I quite frankly didn't really have a plan and really liked what they were doing, and so joined and knew I could learn a lot in that environment. And within that environment, grew into having a sustainability lead position. So had no training to, to do that necessarily, but this was graduated in 2019, so this was kind of like late 2019, and sustainability was about 30% of my role alongside, uh, like brand activation essentially. Um, so I had my first taste of what it was like to work in climate or work on climate or focus on sustainability as part of my job. Um, and then was made redundant from that role when the pandemic hit, which was a whole other thing to navigate and pretty tricky. And I don't think at the point of me being made redundant, I had really built up enough confidence to be like, "Okay, I'm gonna take that 30% and run with it and dive straight into Climate Now." I kind of inadvertently, I went to work for a, or volunteered actually, for a community of sustainable fashion professionals, which is where I built the community tool that I mentioned before. And from that community of sustainable fashion professionals, I then spun out that community tool into a separate company. So that's kind of what I mentioned about building a company that is ultimately like a SaaS tool, but not having 100% of a focus on climate, because any kind of community could use it. And really, for me, what I needed to do was build up my confidence, and I did that via Following the Footprints. So, as I mentioned, I've started a kind of side project called Following the Footprints, and now it's a team of 5, all volunteer-led. But Following Footprints essentially started with interviews. So I would reach out to sustainability leads in consumer goods companies that had the role that I had very, very, very briefly had at one point in time and basically ask for their time. I really wanted it to exist, and I can go into a whole spiel about that separately, but I essentially didn't have the confidence to produce any original content myself. Or to even really, like, and then in quotations, like, properly work in climate myself. But I was like, okay, here's one thing I can do, and that's speak to people and like interview them, write up what they're doing, open source their learning. They're not doing it themselves, no one's doing it for them. Um, and through that process built up a lot of confidence. But that was a really slow process.

Yeah, I want to pick up on something you said earlier about giving yourself permission to go work in climate. I find that interesting because I mean, I wonder what those sort of restrictions were, you know, mentally. Is it, oh, I don't know whether there's money, I don't know, or I don't know the actual avenue, there's not much spoken about how to get into career and climate, like, what were those restrictions?

A whole combination of things. I think, um, back in 2019 it wasn't spoken about as a career path, or even really, um, yeah, or even really dissected as a career path. I think obviously people were working, and I say, I keep saying, you know, in quotations, the climate. Climate's huge, right? It's a, it's a full rewiring of our like modern economy essentially. And the, the casual term is like working in climate, but also I'm such a believer that any job can be a climate job. You don't need to necessarily go and work for like a climate tech startup or the Environment Agency or whatever it is. Um, but yeah, I don't think there was much discussion about how people from non-climate backgrounds could go and work in climate. I think that was one aspect. I think it was a lot of imposter syndrome, not seeing where my skills translated, not even really knowing what my skills were at that stage. My undergraduate degree was really cool and got me doing loads of things, but it was also very— the idea was that you would be a generalist enough where it would make you a specialist. Um, so my like final dissertation and thesis was on like a systems thinking approach to how entrepreneurship, empowerment, and psychology kind of interact and can boost local economic development in a township in Cape Town via like urban interventions. And you're probably thinking like, what the hell, that's so weird. But like, that's kind of the approach that my undergraduate degree took, which I'm really grateful for. But a lot of people from that degree go into consulting. One of the reasons is because you're kind of like a jack of all trades and master of some, um, but that's quite tricky to figure out. So yeah, I think like no kind of clear routes, it not being particularly spoken about. I didn't have any friends that were like looking at the space at all. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what success is when you graduate, and I think there's a lot of like social pressure around that as well. I was fortunate that I didn't feel loads of pressure to graduate with a really high salary, being fully honest, and that's a very privileged position to sit. I knew I could kind of figure it out. Well, that's not a pressure I put on myself at least and didn't have anyone putting that on me. And yeah, also just like imposter syndrome and confidence. I think like climate can feel like a really science-based space, which to some extent it really is, but that doesn't mean you need to understand the science to work in it or on it or have that focus at all. So yeah, unclear answer, but essentially just a whole range of those things compounding together.

So if we move back to your degree, it was Arts and Sciences, a very broad degree, and you hadn't really— it hadn't clicked at that point that you wanted to work in sustainability. I suppose when you were choosing your modules, which is again very broad range, what was the motivations behind that and what advice would you give to someone who maybe could use this as a tool for maybe their future, you say your dissertation, but isn't too sure about where their future lies?

I think one of the best things you can do at university is try as much as you can, and I think the degree gave me that opportunity. When I was leaving school, I was basically looking at either going and doing geography or doing an art foundation. Those were, in my head, my two options, and I didn't apply to any other course apart from arts and sciences because to me there wasn't another one in the UK that fitted what I wanted to do, and I just hadn't really got round to looking further abroad, or no one around me was really looking at that, so it didn't feel like an option. 'Cause I know those kind of, I guess a lot of people call it like more liberal arts-based courses are quite popular in the US and elsewhere. So yeah, I think it gave me the opportunity to try almost everything and get that out my system. Like my first year I did like law, international relations, like human geography, social psychology, and then by the end I was doing like entrepreneurship modules and environment modules and like art and interdisciplinarity and like migration studies and, like urban formal formation, like all this random cumulative thing. And I think also like not just studies at university. I think one of the best things you can do is just get involved with everything. Like I was part of the Musical Theatre Society building sets, stage sets, and like producing shows and like sport and rowing and like all of these different things coming together. I think it's a chance to just throw— without wanting to swear— throw everything at the wall and just see what sticks. And I think that was, yeah, a really good thing. Um, but then also what you really importantly need to figure out is what you don't enjoy. Um, and then kind of just take some leaps of faith when you graduate. I think there's a lot of pressure to have it figured out or have some idea when actually the swapping of careers is such a consistent and ever-present thing. I don't think anyone is going to be in the same career from the moment they graduate to the moment they retire. Very, very few people unless you're going into like a vocational degree, maybe like medicine, but even then obviously not 100%. Um, so yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but essentially just like figuring out what you like and don't like and having the opportunity to try everything. I think my course is brilliant at that. It was also overwhelming, like you would be in a third year like behavior change and psychology module with psychology students who had done that for 3 years and you were like trying to figure out like who this professor was and like how to write a good essay that he would like. So you were like kind of in the deep end consistently, which was a little bit tough. Um, but yeah, just figuring out what I was good at and bad at was really important.

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Yeah, and on the topic of trying things, obviously you're employed to a company now, and you've been employed to other companies, but what I'm curious in is that you've always founded things by yourself as well, be it following the footprint that you're doing at the minute, or actually at university, you tried to do a tech startup, you founded that. And so two questions that stem from that is, why do you think it's important to sort of found things and try things by yourself while you're young, while you're at uni? And also, how did that experience of, you know, maybe the tech startup not going your way at uni, how did you reflect on that? How did the whole process go?

Yeah, so I started a couple of things at uni. The community tool startup was actually the year after I graduated, so like mid-pandemic, like 2020 to 2021. Um, I think I've always enjoyed building things. I think it's also a really good practice to get into, or habit to get into. I think, um, just the general concept that if you want something to exist, you could do it yourself, I think is a mindset that is really useful both in and out of jobs. I think any jobs I have had have always been pretty self-led, and I guess you could say, have like strong entrepreneurial themes. You're kind of building it for yourself or building it from scratch or starting a new function or whatever it is. Um, so yeah, I think it's just a really good habit to get into and a really good thing to practice and fail at as early on in your career as you can, whilst it might not feel like it at the time, but whilst the stakes are relatively low. Um, because then I think you lose the fear of starting new things and you figure out how to do it better next time and you can kind of also figure out, like I said with the course, like you can figure out what you know and don't know, which I think is quite a hard thing to do early on in your career. I think that's one of the good things about working for startups and smaller companies is that you have the space to figure that out and try a whole bunch of new things. But yeah, I just think the practice of being like, "Huh, that could be really cool," or like, "I think this should exist," or like, "Why doesn't this exist?" How could I do that? And like, not counting yourself out of the chance to do that. Like, I was not— I was— so in the community tool startup that I mentioned, we went through a 6-month accelerator run by Deutsche Bank, um, and technically out of myself and my co-founder— my co-founder who was my previous boss, which is a really interesting dynamic, um— I was technically the product person, right? And it would have been really easy for me to be like, I've never I did a Code First Girls course, sure, but like, I've never really truly coded in my life. I've like, I'm not the product person. I've never studied product management. I don't know anything about software. But like, when you just put yourself in those situations of trying things, building things, even if it's like tiny initiatives at university or it's like, you know, bigger things outside of university, I think you learn a lot and it's just a good mentality. I think like that's— it's been a mentality that I, I genuinely think has like defined why I've taken steps in my career that I have, um, because I think each then job I've had has also required that mentality. And I think that like isn't often encouraged in early graduates.

Yeah, and when you're trying loads of things, and this is sort of a feeling that, you know, I have, maybe you can relate to it, there's a very fine line between I'm doing a lot, I'm trying a lot, and actually just feeling lost. Like, as in, almost the more you try, you know, especially if it doesn't come off, like, it can make— add to that confusion and feeling lost in your career. How do you sort of look at that? Like, what do you think about this feeling of being lost in confusion? In reflection, having graduated, you know, 3 or 4 years ago, how do you reflect on that whole graduation period?

Good question. I can't remember. I can't remember if this is Steve Jobs or Barack Obama, but someone said, someone said, um, and I'm also going to butcher the quote, so maybe I should just like claim it as my own at this point, um, but someone said it's so much easier to connect the dots looking backwards. I think you will feel lost. Um, I don't now, but like for a good 2-3 years after I graduated, I felt completely lost. But I now look back at it and it makes sense. Like, I, I look back and I'm glad I did each of those things. And sure, it might have been hard to explain to my granny at the time, like, why I had a different job for the second time in a year, or was working on a different project for the third time that month, or whatever it was. But it will make sense looking back, and I think you just have to have faith in that. I don't, I don't think it will make full sense at the time.

When you think about the feeling of being lost and you know, you have this feeling, and maybe you actually reflecting on it now, you saw it as a good thing or maybe an opportunity to like dive into different things. And you also said that you didn't feel this sort of pressure to like go into this big consulting job where, you know, maybe follow like somewhere like UCL, they really promote just like, you know, getting that industry experience straight off the bat. Like, what actual tools and like practical things do you think students can be implementing at a younger age so that when they graduate, they're doing something they're passionate about without that feeling of being lost?

Mm, good question. Might not be such a practical tool, but definitely a good reminder. I think it's— there's a lot of comparison that happens when you graduate, and I think you have to be quite resilient to shoulder that. I think, you know, there was a point when when I was going through that accelerator, I had moved back in with my parents because I was earning peanuts. Like, quite literally didn't have to pay tax for a year because I was earning that little. Um, and like, it was mentally really hard. And I think one thing I did is just kind of block out the outside world, if that made sense, um, because I just wanted to, A, 100% focus on what I was building. And so 4 months— this was like beginning of 2021, so like lockdown 3 in the UK. For 4 months just like basically went to this hole and obviously like stayed in contact with close friends and had some really supportive people around me and all of that. But like really just avoided any chance for comparison. I think comparison is the thief of joy. Um, and so I like deleted social media and just like really tried to give my mental health the best chance of like, like making it out okay. Because it was a pretty— it was a pretty difficult time. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself and like was just like on a really slow path to burning out, which is one of the reasons that that startup didn't kind of like take off after the accelerator. Um, so yeah, I think like a tip would be just avoid that comparison at all costs, both you comparing yourself to others but other people putting that comparison on you. I remember so many discussions when I graduated of being like, oh, did you hear this person's got, you know, 'XYZ's starting salary,' as if that was the measure of success, or even that we were all aiming for whatever your individual measure of success was at the age of— I was, what, 20? Um, which I think is just kind of insane. But that's— I think a lot of people were stressed out, and so we were all just like comparing people's different plans to each other. So yeah, I don't know. I think if you— the, the danger to feeling lost when you graduate is that you will try and feel secure by picking a path that seems like the norm or seems like the best route to everyone else, but isn't necessarily the best route for yourself, right? It would be very easy to be like, oh, okay, uh, I don't know what I want to do, but, but everyone was going into consulting, so maybe I should just do that because they seem to have it all really figured out. Um, and so maybe I should just, you know, go try and get into McKinsey or whatever it is. Um, And that would have been a mistake. So I think, yeah, just avoid comparison, both like from other people on you and also from yourself. And as I said, kind of give yourself permission to feel that way and just like move through it.

Yeah. And I guess a huge part of maybe your resurgence in the— after this feeling of being lost was the fan— following the footprints and your own project, which obviously you alluded to, really helped you land the job at MCJ Collective and get in the space. Tell me a little bit about that, how you started it, how the journey's going, and how you're balancing that at the moment with your other job.

Yeah, 100%. So, Following Footprints is a platform that digs into how consumer goods businesses are taking steps to reduce their negative environmental impact on our planet. We do kind of dip into social as well. We do this via free weekly newsletter, articles, databases, resources, events. Um, it's a volunteer-led project. There's a team, myself included, there's a team of 5. Um, and we are just doing it because we think it should exist. Ultimately, it didn't exist at the time. Everyone was talking about, you know, how their brand was, um, being carbon neutral, and no one was actually digging into how or why they got there. And it just felt grossly inefficient because it was like, okay, so you've gone through all these steps, why don't we will share them with each other and avoid us all having to go through the same mistakes at the same time. And stems from the consumer goods brand I mentioned, um, that I worked out when I left university. So yeah, it kind of started as a series of interviews, like I mentioned, because I was like, oh my God, no one wants to hear any original content from me. I have nothing to share. I know nothing at all. Um, and then I think actually the biggest motivation by far with it has been the people who have joined. So very, very quickly, two of the team who are still doing it now, Ben and Pippa, joined. Um, they kind of like found it because I was starting to put it— put out the longer interviews. And having them to do it with was A, accountability for me, B, motivation, and also just meant that we had a little bit more manpower as well. Um, so I massively credit them for like the fact that it's still running today. I think also it's scary, but being public with what you're doing. So, you know, there was a point, I think it was in May 2021, where we were like, okay, we're gonna do a weekly newsletter. When you commit to that and you have people subscribe to that, you have to produce it. So there have probably been points where I've been like too exhausted to put something together, but at the same time you kind of have to. And I think that's been quite formative force. Um, and in terms of juggling it, you know, we have a team of 5 now. It's myself, Ben, Pippa, Ruby, and Emma, and they're all fantastic. And we split up what we're doing, and we all kind of have parts that we love and parts that we move away from. And we, um, kind of like share out responsibilities and, um, use it as a tool for our own professional development. That's what I try and say to the team, is like, if we're doing this in our spare time anyway we might as well make this make sense for us. So trying out skills that we've never done before and just really using it ultimately. But like, yeah, I don't know, I think we hit a nerve and we have received so much amazing feedback and people who are really grateful for it. And even if we've helped one person along the way have a better understanding of how to reduce their business's impact, then like, I'm super proud of that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely a difficult thing to, to juggle, um, and also a source of a lot of guilt because I spend as much time as I possibly can in my free time doing it whilst also trying to make sure that I still like function as a human and see friends and have good mental and physical health. But then you do sometimes feel guilty that you're not spending more time, and that's a little bit crippling sometimes, but something you have to balance. I have to remind myself that it's like not a job, and quite frankly, no one's paying me to do this, and we're just doing it because we want it to exist. Um, but yeah, that can be tough.

Yeah, I guess a few things come up about that. I guess in terms of generally starting your own endeavor with a professional development in mind, it's something that maybe a lot of students can get into. We've got a lot of free time in our hands. What are some tips for that? And also the feeling of guilt. A lot of us do things like extracurriculars or committee positions, things like that, that don't— we're not paid for, quite frankly, but we commit a lot of time and that we really care about mentally. What's your tips for balancing in that and having a bit of perspective on really what's important to you?

Yeah, find awesome people to do it with. Like, ultimately, they'll hold you accountable for making sure you're not kind of like getting that balance wrong. They'll give you motivation. If you don't want a situation where like, I don't know, you're super ill for a week and everything grinds to a halt, right? Like, I think the people you do these things with will either make those environments and situations or projects stressful or really enjoyable. Um, and I think it's like rule number one, 100%. Um, I also think like starting your own thing is honestly, honestly, I think one of the best things you can do. Like, anytime I, um, I speak to a lot of people who are like transitioning their career into the broader climate space. And I always, always say, like, if you're this way inclined— and not everyone is, which is obviously super fine— start your own thing. It's such a quick way to learn, even if it's literally like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm really, really interested in, like, nanotechnology or whatever it is. I'm just going to put something on Medium or put out, like, a little bit of writing or just get something down. A, you can put that in front of an employer and be like, I am interested in this. Here's me doing something on my own accord. Whether you're in uni or out of uni, like, any employer is going to look at that and be like, wow, okay, they are actually interested. They're doing this in their free time. It's not part of a course. It's not required for them to graduate. Um, it will help you meet people in a similar space. I think that's been like— 2, 3 years ago, I really didn't have many or any friends working in the climate space. And now can point to quite a few people who have been formative in just how I see myself in this space and who are really, really close friends. And that's because I kind of was putting out content or putting out writing or starting initiatives. Um, and also I think it just increases your surface area for serendipity, is what I like to say. I think like if you're doing things at university or outside university that aren't required but you're doing them because you genuinely enjoy them like you guys are doing with this podcast, right? Like, if you're doing them because you genuinely enjoy them, you'll meet people, you'll hear about opportunities, it will change your perspective, it'll give you new skills, it will just massively increase, yeah, your surface area of serendipity. And from there, so much can happen.

Yeah, I'm curious about— so you have this passion, and then you even find people that relate to this passion, and then you start something together, and you're this great group of people, you've got you know, a work ethic, you've got this passion, but something that I've experienced, and I think other people that might have tried to start things at university, is that the actual delegation of what people do within it and like making sure you are doing efficient work and not all doing the same thing, like that's a hard thing to get right, especially when it's at such a young age and you've never done it before. What's some advice for making sure that the right people are doing the right things and that the the appropriate delegation is happening?

Oh, juicy question. Um, I'm still figuring this out, but one thing I think— yeah, hmm. So we— because Following Footprints— and I'll take the example of Following Footprints— is a volunteer-led project, it's been really important to make sure that it doesn't add— obviously there are some times where things are going to be stressful if you're doing them on the side. I think the nature of doing them on the side can make them a little bit stressful. But it's really important to prioritize the joy aspect and find joy in the work and have those big visions and have that ambition, but also as a team be led by the reason that you're doing it. And for us, it's because A, we think it should exist, and B, we all enjoy doing it together. So we actually had our first like annual general meeting kind of AGM thing brainstorming day back in July. Um, and at the time I think we were super excited and we essentially laid out some goals we had for the year. I think it was the first time we've been able to sit down and be like, oh, here are all the things we could and should and want to achieve, and that's really cool and how amazing, and it'd be awesome if we did all these things. Um, and then we split them into quarters and we were like, okay, we'll take it in kind of like 3-month sprints. Um, and that's all well and good, and I think like the bigger picture setting was really, really helpful for the team. But then ultimately we kind of became frozen by the goals that we had set 6 months prior when context had changed, goals had changed, like people's lives were busy— busier than we ever thought. And it was kind of demotivating towards the end of the year. I think we all found ourselves being quite stressed about it. We all felt like we were overlapping on all the projects. There wasn't maybe super clear delegation. We had a good system running for the kind of like weekly content, but for all the other kind of behind-the-scenes projects that we're brewing at the moment, it just didn't necessarily feel super clean. And I don't know, it felt more difficult than it needed to be, and we had lost that element of joy. So what we did is we changed it to be more of a rolling structure, because people's interests change and side projects should allow for that kind of flexibility. So now, rather than sitting down once a year and setting all these goals Uh, what we do is we basically— everyone on the team has the opportunity to take or set one goal or one area that they want to work on for the next 3 months, and it's completely up to them. That's fully led by them. So my goal for these 3 months is to grow the team, and that's my responsibility. Obviously people can chip in, I want people's feedback, all of those things, but that's something that will bring me joy over the next 3 months and also something I own. And then after 3 months If someone figures out that actually that's not where their skills lie or their goal isn't really giving them joy anymore, they can completely change it, right? Because I think side projects need to, yeah, allow for that flexibility. So, I think when it comes to delegation and the division of work, if it is a project that isn't paying the team ultimately, and we do make some income, but that's a whole kind of other thing, isn't paying the team ultimately. Um, and is on the side of something else that they're doing. Figure out the main priority. For us, it's doing work that brings us joy. And then figure out the system that will give that on a recurring basis. Um, and also I think that just like being okay that everything's not going to go 100% and people are going to take on work that they realize they're not enjoying or not good at. And there's, there's no such thing in side projects as like perfect delegation in my mind. But you just have to build a system that allows you to like flex and roll with it over time so you don't get stuck. Yeah.

What's the logic behind that sort of 3-month rule? You say, okay, I'm going to try this for 3 months. If I like it, I keep doing it. If I don't like it, then I can leave it and go to a new thing. Is that, you know, is that on purpose? Is 3 months an amount of time you think, you know, you should be passionate or enjoying it by the time you've spent 3 months on it?

Yeah, uh, good question. I think it's hijacking the kind of quarterly framework that we each are used to in our 9-to-5s. So it's a similar kind of mental model, but we're not doing it kind of like every 2 months. And suddenly it— like, it fits with the way most people see their own work, um, because we at MCJ, we set like quarterly, uh, goals and OKRs, um, objective key results. Um, so I think it's kind of like hijacking that mental model a little bit. I also think it's the balance between enough time for you to sink your teeth into something, but not too long where you're like committing to doing something for 6 months. That feels big, right? That's half a year that you're like, I want to try this. So we want people to have the opportunity to try something new but also not be overwhelmed by yet the like level of commitment. And also, you know, if people are putting, let's say some people it's way more than this, but let's say it's like, you know, 5 to 10 hours a month. Um, like, yeah, people putting 5 to 10 hours a month, then 5 to 10 hours to achieve a goal isn't actually a huge amount. So, but over 3 months you do have a bit of runway to sink your teeth into it.

Yeah, maybe looking to the future for Following the Footprints and MCJ Collective, um, what is it like for you and where do you see maybe the future of your own projects and also your own role and maybe some future roles as well?

So whilst we're on the topic of following footprints, I think we'll be launching a website this year, which is really exciting. We have one now, but we'll be launching kind of like a bigger and better version, which I think is more representative of everything that we're trying to do. A lot more events, databases, digging into resources. We really want to use the platform to kind of showcase other voices as well, get some experts in. I think we're kind of on the brink of some really exciting plans. We're going to launch— uh, launch— we're going to incorporate, hopefully, if all goes well, as a social enterprise this year, which I'm really proud of. Um, that's on the cards. So, and also hopefully grow the team. I wouldn't be surprised if the team doubled in the next kind of 6 months at least, um, which I think is really exciting. So I don't want to get too ahead because I think, as I mentioned, there's difficulties when you are having too rigid of a plan for side projects. It induces guilt and stress for the whole team. So we'll really be led by what we feel the industry needs over the next 2, 3 years. But I think we're going to really hopefully document and demonstrate what our original core mission was in a much better way over the coming year. So that's what I'm footprint. Um, in terms of MCJ, you know, we are— we can talk about it, which is really exciting, but we're raising our fund at the moment. We're raising a new fund, more traditional fund. We've been, um, working with the kind of like angel list rolling fund structure up until this point. Um, and so yeah, we're raising a sizable traditional fund, which is gonna mean that we can invest in way more companies, which is really exciting. I think from the from a community perspective, you know, we're growing really quickly. I think I'm really interested in the role that community has played in how we develop as a society since literally the dawn of time, um, and also the role that like the digital age of communities will play as we transition to a newer, greener economy, um, and also just like how we can build local ecosystems. So we have members all over the world Um, and I'm really interested in how MCJ can be a catalyst for like local climate ecosystem development in certain cities. A good example of this is, um, we have some amazing members in Portland, Oregon, for example, who have done massive things to bring people together in that space, to work with local organizations, to hear from key speakers, to really get the climate conversation going in that locality, and I think that's a really interesting influence MCJ can have. I also think when we're looking at like the, um, talent transition, but also the, um, necessary equalizing of opportunities when it comes to starting companies that needs to happen, um, I think MCJ can play a key role. I'm really passionate about, um, diversity and representation, and especially when it comes to female founders and how difficult the fundraising environment is for them. And if there's a way that MCG can play a key role in the early-stage founder, the very, very, very early-stage founder, before they've even been like, okay, I'm doing this company, is there a bigger influence we can have on the whole industry to support and pump more female or historically excluded founders into the wider system and make sure that they are getting the support at the point that they need? Um, so yeah, I think there are— we see ourselves as a mini ecosystem, but I think we also are very aware of the position that we have within the wider climate ecosystem and the kind of push points and leverage points that we can really execute on, um, to create long-lasting systemic change. That's the goal.

Yeah. And in 2019, when you were graduating, you said you were lost in terms of the idea you didn't really know how you could get into a career of climate. You didn't really know what that looked like, and you didn't really know what job roles look like. However, I feel like, you know, someone who's about to graduate, I've been seeing a lot of this sort of concept of every job can be a climate job, and I'm so curious what you think about that phrase. And also, you know, having someone who's working in the space right now, ESG is a massive growing field. All the big companies now have someone, head of sustainability, head of ESG, and For your future and for people wanting to go into any career path, how can you bring climate into your job?

Oh, oh, I love this question. Every job is a climate job is honestly a mantra that probably could get tattooed at this point, um, because I'm so passionate about it. But, um, yes, okay, I think Working in climate is more of a mindset than it is a job spec, I think, right? And, you know, there are a lot of different influencing factors. So you're lucky if you're at an organization that is really happy for you to kind of become an intrapreneur and to kind of absorb focusing on climate as part of your role. If you're in an organization where that's possible, go for it. Like, brilliant chance to learn internally, influence change internally, especially if you're at a big organization. I think a lot of organizations are coming round to improving climate literacy. You know, Deloitte, I think, are like training up hundreds of thousands of their workforce to be climate literate. So yeah, if you're in an organization, there are so many different resources Leaders for Climate Action, Planet Group's Project Drawdown have some really good guides. Low Carbon Business School, which is part of MADE FROM, which I was involved in setting up, has some really good resources. Terra, terra.do has some amazing learning courses and they're big in focusing on supporting that talent transition, but not just by training people who want to switch jobs, but also training people internally at these companies as well. My advice would be don't get overwhelmed, but do get educated. Just read, speak to people. And also another piece of advice would just be you will never feel prepared enough to talk about it internally. I have so many people who are like, oh, really passionate about this area, or wanna swap jobs or whatever it is, but they're like, oh, but I need to know so much more. Oh, I don't have a certification, I don't have a qualification. You don't need that, trust me. Start speaking about it and thinking about it and acting on it way before you think you are ready to, if you're that way inclined. So yeah, I would just get involved, speak to people, learn key things, find maybe interest areas, find a way to embed it into your current work. I think if you are then looking to go and work in a, quotes, green company— they should all be green companies— but in a green company, then there are loads of resources out there. There are green jobs boards, there are communities like MCJ, there's Work on Climate as well, Climate Action Tech is another. If you're more senior in your career, then Climate Draft is a great resource. Honestly, the list kind of goes on and on and on at this point, but go look at jobs boards, get involved in the conversation, connect with other people. Yeah, just start to like slowly embed yourself in the space and build up your confidence. Um, but do remember that it is a mindset. It's not a qualification anyone's going to hand you. No one's going to be like, hey, hey, Leonie, like, okay, cool, now you know enough, off you go. Like, go and focus on it internally, or go and get a new job. No one's going to give you that permission. You have to give it to yourself first. So often the challenge is just confidence and capacity building before anything.

So, Leonie, a question we like to ask all of our guests is their definition of success, and how that might have changed from when you were at university to where you are now in your career. So if you could just give us some insight into what you think about the word success.

Yeah, goodness. I remember looking at the Forbes 30 Under 30 list when I was probably like 14 or 15, I don't know how long it's been running, and not really caring about the other sections, but looking at the, I think the category they have is like social impact. Being like, oh my God, this is when you know you've made it, right? Like you've done something cool that people have seen and they're young, like crazy, like how amazing. Like that is success. Like these people are the pinnacle of our society. Don't get me wrong, I think they're all awesome. I think especially the social impact category, it's an amazing way to find like some of the cool things that are going on and like just huge respect to those people. But I think, my definition of success used to be quite time-based. I think I used to see success as being, um, compounded with age, right? Or like how young you are, more specifically, right? It was always— it's what is prioritized in the news. It's like, you know, oh, you know, Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard at the age of whatever, whatever to do Facebook, you know? Like, we always put young entrepreneurs on a pedestal, and I think it is very impressive, do not get me wrong. Um, but I think whilst I'm still driven by the idea of creating something impactful and that being beneficial to people, I'm, I'm, I'm less focused on the idea of like age being any measure of success. I think it caused me to rush a little bit at certain points. I felt this pressure to like you know, do as much as I could as young as I could because that was like impressive or whatever. Um, I don't think that was helpful. Um, so now I guess my definition of success is yes, building things that are socially impactful, environmentally impactful. Like, I still am so in admiration. I hear about founders, people, local community organizers, right? Like, this doesn't just have to be heavy on the tech and heavy on the gloss. Like, anyone who is bringing people together and like tangibly impacting people's lives like charities, not-for-profits, like community organizations, whatever it is. I'm still like, okay, to me that's how I define success, is how many people you can help ultimately. I think that's instilled by my parents, and I think it's something that very much translates into my role in community, in a community like MCJ. Um, but I think— I don't think that matters what age that comes at, honestly, at this point in time. Um, you know, there was a Harvard study that showed that I think the average age of founders launching an, in quote, successful business, because I'm pretty sure they're measuring it by valuation, which obviously is a whole other topic, but not the only measure of success, was like 45 or something. If anything, I know I want to start a full-time, start a probably climate tech company at some point in the future. But if that's in 20 years, it's in 20 years. I'm not putting rush on it. So yeah. I do think success is how many people you can help in my mind, but I think it's changed from being like as young as possible to basically being like whenever you are best placed to do that.

To wrap up then, it's been an amazing 45 minutes and we'd like to thank you again. But if our audience here could take one piece of advice or one message from this podcast and we're ready to listen to that, what would it be and what would you give them?

Mm. Thank you for having me, firstly. And if they've got this far, maybe they'll realize I'm not the most concise person. So having one piece of advice is a challenge. Yeah, I think— can I, can I give two? Sure.

God, that's always the answer.

We need to just start saying two, three, you pick.

This may be cheeky, but I think I'm a strong believer that, yeah, the dots make sense, more sense looking back. Be okay with that uncertainty and ignoring people or ignoring that comparison and just having faith in what you're doing. If you have a North Star, that eventually it will make sense. That's an ever-evolving process. You don't need to have a fully fledged plan. Great if you do, but the dots will make sense looking backwards. You just have to have faith in that. So that's, I think, piece number 1. And also number 2, I think, obviously I'm biased in a community role and And, you know, I think one of the best things you can do is to be inspired by and surround yourself with people in a space that you are passionate about, and also people not in that space as well. I think that's really important. I'm really lucky to have some very supportive friends and family, and, um, also very lucky to have some incredibly inspiring, um, friends in climate who have helped me figure out what I want to do and stay on track and evolve as a person. I think if you surround yourself with really kind and thoughtful and inspiring, um, and considerate people, then you'll do absolutely fine. Even if you don't know what your next steps are, if you feel a little bit lost, um, you have that system around you and you have that community around you.

Yeah, I want to thank you so much for coming on today, Leonie. Honestly, invaluable advice on not only how to navigate a feeling of confusion and being lost in your career, but also, you know, really honing a passion and going into an industry that maybe wasn't so mapped out and, you know, actually enjoying it and still wanting to be in it and still, you know, being passionate about why you got into it. So yeah, thanks for coming on and we'll leave a link to your company and awesome. Hopefully when the website's up as well. Uh, so cheers.

Thank you so much for having me.