Lloyd Salmons, Co-Founder @ PepTalk

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Lloyd. Lloyd, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Hello, thank you.

You're the founder of Pep Talk. Talk to me, what is Pep Talk and why does it exist?

So Pep Talk exists in its absolute simplest form, to connect businesses with outside expertise. So, um, throughout— I started a business really young, worked with a business with my partner Ant, and we always, we always did things slightly differently. We came from the music industry, we got into entertainment industry, we got into the advertising industry, and along that journey we met, you know, all sorts of fascinating people, you know, and it could be CEO, it could be a food technician, it could be, you know, an economist, could be a sports star, could be a musician. And along the way, when we met those people, we always found that we kind of came, you know, you'd probably get 10 minutes with them, but you came away from those experiences with new perspectives, different thoughts about actually how you're running your business or what you're doing in your day-to-day life. Um, and the idea behind Pep Talk really was to try and connect people with that sort of thinking, uh, at scale. So rather than just the two of us getting those lucky moments, how do we do that for a broader audience?

That's very kind of you. And before we get into the whole journey with Pep Talk, I want to go back to the beginning, uh, you know, your younger years when you're in education. I think a big part of what we try to do on this podcast is try and make everyone feel heard in a career sense and, and have someone that they can like resonate with and look up to. So who is that, that young Lloyd, just as a natural person?

Oh God, um, probably everyone answers that, oh God, starting point. So, uh, I suppose in terms of education, I had a very, um, we traveled a lot as a, like, we moved country quite a lot as a, as as kids. So I had quite a disparate education, I suppose. And probably, you know, for many of the people listening, they've probably got more education than I have. But I guess that experience of kind of moving, being in different education systems, being adaptable, having to adapt quickly is probably the thing that carried out or carries over most from my education. You know, I went to— I did most of my growing up in the UK, or the, you know, the sort of senior years growing up in the UK. So went to school, did some A-levels, didn't quite go through university. Um, so, um, what does that mean? Uh, there were a number of reasons, but, um, uh, I— my dad was unwell, so my dad had his own business I was sort of trying to help keep that moving and going while he was unwell. I was also probably someone that wanted to get on with life, probably more so than kind of get on with education. So the mix of those two things kind of meant that I probably gravitated more towards work and less towards education. To be honest, with hind— not hindsight, but with, well, with age, you now realise what an opportunity education is and that time is to kind of not just learn but actually learn about yourself and to kind of grow as an individual and find out, you know, things, you know, have the time to do things and find out, um, where, you know, perhaps where you might want to go in life. Having said that, I've always never had much of a plan, just kind of, you know, say yes and let it unfold.

Obviously, I think taken over like the business so, so early on in your career. Like, you probably wouldn't wish that on somebody. Like, it's quite a big, big task to do when maybe you haven't learned all the skills. But there, there's some elements that you would have learned at a very young age that I think a lot of people in this day and age could use, um, you know, sort of built more into the education system of upskilling yourself. What do you think some of those early traits of entrepreneurship helped you with the rest of your career?

I think it's the, um, the, you know, the standard words, but, you know, the confidence, you know, actually having like, you just got to put, you have to do it. There's no, you know, there's no, um, there's no hiding. So I think developing that as a skill, you know, being resilient, being adaptable, you know. And these are, these are words that people talk a lot about now. Um, I don't think, you know, when I was younger they were, you know, that was just getting on with it like you described. Um, but actually, if, you know, if you want to, um, and I think you need to be entrepreneurial whether you work for someone or, or whether you work for yourself, but, but if you want to take an entrepreneurial path being resilient and being adaptable are probably two of the most critical things because nothing ever quite goes as planned. And some days you have an amazing day and some days you have a terrible day and you have to just be able to put one foot in front of each other and keep going. And then my experience has been, fortunately, you keep doing that for long enough and then suddenly everything gets a lot easier and it all starts to kind of snowball and then And then you get a different set of challenges, you know. But certainly in those, the, you know, the really early parts of building a business, it's, it's really, you know, it's really tough, as I'm sure you're aware.

I find it interesting that you almost felt reluctant to say something that you think sounds generic, because I think in this day and age there's a lot of quotes that once held a lot of wisdom, but because people who actually don't know what it means have started saying that's almost like populism. Um, they've lost the value and the wisdom along the way. And I think that's probably something that with your business now, and like, so those people that you admired in the beginning that were giving you advice, they might struggle with actually, in, in an age of like so much information, delivering something that really hits home with people and, and means something.

Yeah.

Is there something, you know, maybe in the, the storytelling element of the people within Pep Talk that that makes them really stand out as, uh, in the ability to deliver this information.

Yeah. And for me, that is, you know, that's, uh, I think it says on our website, you know, stories stick. Like, that's the— that is the, you know, from the— from the dawn of time, that is how we've transferred information. And I think you're right, there's so much— there is so much information now, but people that have, you know, been through an experience and use that story to tell I think that's where, you know, you can really learn from it, but you feel the story, you feel the connection to it, and I think that's what makes the difference. You know, there are plenty of people that talk about all of these topics, but if you've lived it and done it, you know, people buy into that and they can see that it's real and true. You know, I think that's That for me is probably the difference. There are, you know, there are plenty of people that are, uh, saying things, but actually doing things is really the, the proof of the pudding.

I hope you said to me sort of off camera before this that you quite like being the person sort of behind, um, you know, not the actual one speaking yourself, but the one sort of managing and building the business.

Hence the rambling.

I'm, I'm interested with, you know, you, you would have had to do like storytelling, whether that's getting people bought into your, your own business, even if that's behind the scenes. And I think it is a really important characteristic or ability to have in building your career nowadays and standing out in interviews. Given that you're not this maybe naturally extroverted person who will stand up on a stage, how have you found your own way to do it?

Yeah, I mean, it's most the— like, you're You're always telling— it doesn't matter who you are, you're always telling stories, or you should be, and you're always selling. Like, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. So whether it's to, you know, win a piece of work, to, you know, tell your boss about, you know, something that you've done right or done wrong, you know, you're always, or you should always be thinking about how you're framing, um, that piece of information and how you're— how people are going to kind you know, hear it and understand it. It always amazes me how, you know, you can send off an email to 3 different people and all 3 of them read it slightly differently. So choosing your words, um, and thinking about how they're going to be heard, I think, is a critical part of, you know— and, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about learning skills, and that is a, you know, that is a skill. How do we communicate is a skill, you know. How do we make decisions is a skill, you know. These are the things that I think universities hopefully are doing a much better job of teaching, you know, rather than just teaching content, are they actually teaching, um, you know, skills that are useful and transferable in, in your everyday life?

Um, okay, well, to play devil's advocate, let's say they aren't doing that. Um, I'm, I'm interested with somebody that's had so much experience and maybe, you know, built their career in a slightly different time to now, you know, with with AI and technology and everything brought in.

Yeah, very, very, very, uh, tactful way of saying you're old.

But I think there's a lot that can be gained from, from, from that period of time and studying sort of what worked back then. Um, and you know, you mentioned you've got kids that are coming up to the point they have to start making big decisions in their career. Are there, are there parts that you wish like remained from the, from the old guard, or, or do you think it's a much easier time to build your career nowadays?

Uh, I don't know if it's easier, I just think it's different. I think, you know, the, the world in which we operate, um, I think there's less clarity on the future. So, you know, I think like you say, I think 10, 20, 30 years ago you, you sort of, you know, there were career paths and they were a bit more mapped out. You know, we've seen through technology how everything is changing and actually, you know, jobs that exist today, will they be there tomorrow? Will, you know, will they be slightly different? All of those things mean that it's tougher for kids, I think, to kind of have a real plan of the future. But I come back to, I think if you've got that solid skill set, you know, the— you will always be okay, you know, because— and those, and those things haven't changed. And as I said, you know, like being able to communicate, being able to make decisions, being able to lead, all of those things, you know, we work with so many businesses, um, and all of the, all of the challenges are sort of the same as they've always been. There's a slightly different flavor on them, but there's still the same recurring challenges that, you know, that leadership have, you know, how do you take people on a journey with you? How do you, you know, how do you communicate your ideas? So I think it's, I think it's probably more unsettling. I think it's probably, you know, more nerve-wracking, um, but I don't think anything's really changed. And as I said, I think the, to, you know, your question was, uh, if they're, if they're not teaching those skills, what do you do? And for me, that's about get involved in things outside of the core lessons. So whether that's team sports or whether that's a startup or whether it's amateur dramatics, whatever it is, get involved in lots of those things because those are where you learn, you might have a conflict with someone, how do you overcome that? Or you just, you learn about life and for me, you know, education is obviously a wonderful thing, but also life skills are equally as important.

And one thing that's also never changed in your own career is, uh, your business partner. Yeah, who's been with you, uh, from, from the beginning, really. Um, this is a friend before business partner, right?

So we— no, we actually met, uh, we met when we were both working. Um, he was working for Polyphonic Records, I was working for EMI Records, which was sort of all under one umbrella. So we're in the same building, um, and we were probably probably the youngest people. So I was in marketing, he was in video production, and we were probably the youngest people in and around. Um, and it was, it was when essentially kind of digital media was really just kind of getting going. Um, and we, you know, and this comes back to, you know, advice, we just grasped that opportunity. You know, we, we were the sort of ones to put our hands up and say, yes, we'll, we'll try and do something with this. So we built the first ever band website. We, you know, we did a webcast with Paul McCartney from the Cavern. We did like took the Beatles on loads of different amazing things. You know, we made most of it up as we went along, but that was where we met. So we, the EMI had a conference. We literally, we were sort of knew each other, but on the plane we were sat next to each other. We got to know each other when we, when we landed in Atlanta, I think it was. Everybody went to bed, we went out and the rest is history.

So what was it? That you saw in each other, you think that you thought, okay, let's give building a business a go together?

So the— we actually were sort of probably both going to just go and do it. I think we both had that entrepreneurial spirit. We were both probably going to go and do our own thing and just decided it made sense. Why would we go and kind of compete against each other? Why don't we just work together? So it was probably more in the first instance marriage of kind of convenience. We were good friends, we would see each other at weekends and whatnot and we would sort of talk about our plans and it just, as I said, it just made common sense. God knows how many, I don't even want to say how many years later, it still makes good sense, you know, and I absolutely unequivocally say that without having him as a partner, I don't think you know, that we would have, you know, and I hope he would say the same, but I don't think that we would have achieved what we've achieved because it's, it's tough doing this on your own, you know, it really is. And I think to have a business partner that, um, complements you, you know, there's sort of healthy competition between us, like it sort of drives us as well, um, but also, you know, it's super supportive. So I think You know, that for me, anyone wanting to kind of, you know, build a business, I would definitely think about the people you've got around you because it's the people that you've got around you that, you know, make it work or don't make it work. Because I guarantee you, your idea that you've got on day 1 will be slightly different by day 2 and day 3 and day 4 and day 5. So it's actually the team and the people that are really the driving force.

That's an interesting thing to move on to. What did that business that you went on to start together look like in the beginning, and how did it progressed into, you know, something that you ultimately exited out in 2012?

So we, so we started, so we were doing digital marketing, like I said, and it was, it was very, um, creative driven. So, you know, I guess that's been a constant for me is I wouldn't consider myself a— I'm not an artist, but I'm a creative person, um, and the same for Ant, um. And so we started off doing kind of creative marketing ideas for, for bands And I guess what we saw was that actually at the time, certainly record companies were very much focused on release cycles. So when the album's out, they do a lot of stuff. But if you're a fan of that band, you don't just stop being a fan because the album's not out. So we were like, okay, we think there's a much more 365-day-a-year type relationship that people should be having with those artists, which was the sort of the founding idea behind our business, which ultimately was sort of a precursor to social media.

So that's what I was going to ask, where was social media at this point?

Uh, so social, well, it was MySpace, so you probably don't, we might not even remember, but it was MySpace and it was things like message boards. So, you know, you would have, you know, you'd build forums and create community on those forums, you know, and, and then also be creating early days, but creating content and feeding those communities. So For me, yeah, it was the early days of— it was the early days of social media, but before it was called social media, basically.

So pioneers then.

Yeah, maybe.

But so that's what it started off as, that was the premise. Yeah, obviously there's an element of you having to evolve with social media then as the business grew. What, what did that look like? Because I know people starting a business now, like, it's, it's so fast-changing. I think one of the most important things about when you consider building a business is how do you adapt with social media and trends and everything. What was that like in the—

so we, again, it comes back to people a little bit. So, you know, we, we've probably, you know, we've both got quite a, um, youthful curiosity, I suppose. But we had people in our team that, that were just you know, they would, you know, they knew about Twitter or X, you know, like way before everybody else. So we always knew what was kind of coming down the pipe because there were people that were at the kind of the real edge of it. And then the real trick is like, okay, well, you know, how do we experiment with that? And how do we, how could we use that for our artists? And then it became sort of broader entertainment to like, you know, movies and computer games. And then we moved into kind of brands. And Brands is where the sort of the business really kind of grew from a commercial point of view. So we would, you know, we would hear those signals, you know, they're coming in from the people around us and then we would, you know, try to make best use of them for the businesses that we were working with. But you got to have that mindset of wanting to adapt, you know, if anything, sometimes, you know, we criticize ourselves a little bit about being too like, too quick to move on from it, you know, where, you know, there was a huge moment where Facebook was sort of the, you know, the center of the universe in terms of marketing for, or digital marketing for brands. Um, and because we'd got into it so early, by the time sort of the rest of the world caught up, we were sort of like, oh, what's going to be next? And actually there's a little moment of, you know what, don't jump too quickly because the commercial element, you know, the opportunity is is, is when it gets to that kind of, um, mass saturation kind of phase.

So I asked you off camera before this, like, if you were gonna give a pep talk yourself, what would it be on? And from the outside looking in, it's, it's pretty clear it'll be something around branding and marketing.

Yeah.

To the, to the students listening, they'll think about starting their own business. Can we get a, you know, a quick pep talk from you on, on your opinion on what makes great branding?

God, that's a— that's— that is a question. So I think there's a— I think there's a difference between, um, brand and, and advertising. So there's a, you know, um, and there's, uh, there's a lot smarter people than me that will, will kind of talk about this, but for me, you know, brand is, is really having a set of beliefs and a purpose and communicating those properly so that people can buy into it, so they understand what they're buying into. You know, ultimately, you know, you're— when you buy a handbag, let's say, you know, when you're buying a handbag from Chanel and it costs God knows what it costs versus, you know, you're buying one from a, you know, more, you know, high street store, yeah, there's a bit of a difference in quality, but it's brand that you're really buying. So, you know, how have they achieved that? Well, they've achieved that by imbuing the brand with, I suppose, the aspirational qualities or the lifestyle that, that people want. And, you know, and you can say that from, you know, Patagonia or North Face, or, you know, you're buying into really the kind of the, I guess, the lifestyle and beliefs of that brand as much as the product. Like, the products whether you look at the, you know, fashion, automotive, etc., you know, product quality so high across the board, you know, it doesn't matter whether you buy a little, you know, starter car or a Ferrari, the, the quality is amazing, you know. So, um, it really is about, for me, you know, having a set of beliefs, acting, acting and delivering on those, but in a, in a genuine and meaningful way. I think there's a lot of brands that try and sort of, you know, piggyback things um, and that, you know, often gets seen through and doesn't necessarily go well.

You might have heard of, uh, this sort of relatively new phenomenon of personal branding, which I believe should just really just be called your online reputation. Yeah, but, um, that's neither here nor there. But I'm, I'm interested for the platform of Pep Talk, I guess. You're, you're sort of, you're collating, you know, people who have these, these great personal brands and portray themselves really online and really well online, and then saying to brands, okay, this person, this individual, you should be, you know, taking a chance on to actually, you know, deliver workshops to, to your teams, everything like that. What, what have you seen, um, as common characteristics or traits of people who have done really well, uh, on the Pep Talk platform? Like, how are they making themselves stand out as, as great speakers?

Um, I think it's two things. I think there's authenticity. So, um, you know, having, having something that you can really— that you really— it comes back to the same thing, you know, something you really genuinely believe in and can talk about authentically. Um, I think is a, you know, is a, is a key point because when you get, uh an expert that's sort of, you know, basically trying to capitalize on a trend rather than actually a sort of a genuine deep knowledge or understanding or love or passion. It comes across, I think, in the delivery. So for me, it's that sort of authenticity point. And, and actually what we do at Pep Talk, there's a huge— so when, you know, when you're working with a a big brand and they're, you know, they might be spending, you know, considerable money booking someone for a big conference or whatever. There's a huge element of trust that they put in us to make sure that we're, you know, that we're putting the right people in front of them that are genuinely going to deliver. And I think, you know, so, you know, so what is Pep Talk's brand? It's trust. Like, that's, that's ultimately what we have to do, because if we don't do that and if we, you know, if we just put people forward to get the money from it we wouldn't get clients to come back to us. So, you know, I think that, that point about kind of living what you believe, I think, is critical for brands.

And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off in your career journey, um, you know, venturing into the world of entrepreneurship as well, you would have had a certain idea of what success might go on to look like for your career, but fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

I think it just changed over time. So I think, you know, what your— my definition of success, I suppose in the first instance was sort of doing something that I thought was cool, being honest. So working in the, you know, working in the music industry and marketing were things that I sort of felt, you know, were aspirational. I think you then, you know, maybe this coincides with having kids, but you then flip very much, or I did, to economic security, you know, making sure that you're, you know, financially stable. And then I think, you know, the, you know, the, as I'm getting older and you've got some of those things in the bank, it's then about actually pursuing kind of passions. You know, things that you, that make you want to go to work or make you want to get out of bed. And, you know, I know there's a lot of talk about balance and actually those things I do believe in, but also I believe there's, you know, there's different moments, you know. So, you know, getting the balance right when you're 25 years old is probably work a lot harder, you know, versus as you get older, actually maybe you can work a lot less, you know. So I think it's about choosing those moments, and even within that time frame, like if you're, you know, if you're 25 years old and I'm telling you to work really hard at weekends, don't work. Like, you know, just it— I think it's a bit like a seesaw, and you've got, you got, you got, you know, there's moments where, um, you need to, you know, give it everything. And there's a, there's, um, there's a guy called Scott Galloway And he had a quote which is, uh, do what you're capable of, not what you're asked, which I think for me is the best piece of advice I could give anyone. You know, it's like, actually, you, you know, so many people just stop at what they've been asked to do, but actually, if you can go beyond that and actually what you're capable of, that will see you, you know, whether it's rising up through the business if that's what you want to do, whether it's, you know, actually spending more time doing whatever's your personal passion, but I think too many people settle for like okay when actually they've got a lot more in the tank.

Lloyd, thanks so much for coming on, appreciate it.

Pleasure, thank you.