Lydia Rodford, Radio Presenter @ Capital FM

Welcome back to another episode of Grad Guide. Today we're joined by Lydia. Lydia, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. And, uh, you are a radio presenter at Capital, which is, um, from the outside looking in, like, it's the most unknown thing. How do you even to get started, how do you even get into that? And I think, yeah, this episode we're going to be delving into your own journey and just really trying to demystify the career paths into radio and working in it. So I think a good place to start is actually taking it back to your childhood. How were you thinking about your career at the time? What did you think it might pan out to be back then?

Great question. Two things. One, I'm conscious this is on video and I would like to say I love Tottenham, but my other half, he supports them. I actually grew up in Manchester, so please don't come for me for the t-shirt, just the fashion. Two, thank you for having me. I'm so sorry that it's taken so long to kind of get this in. I'm sure we'll eventually get to it, but sort of being a freelancer, which you guys might be able to relate to, is you're just trying to juggle so many things. So yeah, I'm really excited to finally be here. Going all the way back, do you know what? People ask me this a lot. Like, I don't necessarily know that I was like, one day I'll be on the radio, but I do remember growing up in Manchester listening to a station that was called Key 103. And being like, I wanna do that one day. I don't think it was one of those things where I was like, I'm 100% gonna do that, which I can explain like my career path and maybe how I'd got distracted at points in my life. But I do remember being a kid in the car listening to the radio and go, I'd love to do that. Like, how do you make that happen? So I think that was probably the first moment as early as I can remember that I was like, yeah, I might do that.

And you mentioned distractions. What were those to you?

So many. So many, so I guess my career starts probably when I moved from Manchester to London when I was about 13 or 14 years old. And guess at that, it was pre that, it was like primary school. So I think I always wanted to be like a dolphin trainer. I just remember saying that all the time. I wanted to work with animals, that kind of thing, you know. So yeah, moved to London and did my, went into my GCSEs and I am not, I'm gonna use the word book smart. I'm just not like traditionally academic at all. I literally remember my English teacher sitting me down and being like, we will get you, like you will get a C by like the skin of your teeth if you work so hard. And that was, is so true. I'm so dyslexic. I can't really put pen to paper. I just never have, no matter how hard I tried, it just never really was my thing. Same with maths. Same with anything. So about the age of 15, when all my friends were looking at where they were gonna go and do their A-levels and what universities eventually they wanted to go to, I was like, once I finished my GCSEs, and you could at the time, I will never, ever, ever be in a classroom again. Like, it is not my thing. And even though my school reports probably were, she tries really hard, they were always like, can she stop yapping? Like, someone shut, shush her. So I've always been like a super, super talkative and super like outgoing, but I could just, they would be like, put that to paper. And as much as I tried, I never could. So I knew I was never going to do any further education post-GCSEs. Um, so I literally tried my best. I remember working so hard for my GCSEs and getting like all C's and being hysterical because I was like, oh my gosh, I've passed, I've passed! Like, that was it, that was all I wanted to do. And everyone, like my English teachers, and you know, like big up them, like they were so supportive of that. But I knew that that was it.

Yeah.

So then I was like, right, what do I wanna do next? And at the time, there was a performing arts school that was relatively new and I loved dance and I loved like performing, I guess, in a sense of like making people laugh and just being really like kind of out there. So I was like, right, let's go to this performing arts school called Wilkes Academy, which is now like a really established performing arts school. Somehow I managed to get in, Lord knows how. Again, was terrible at like ballet and all of those things, but loved just, having a yap. Went there, loved it, did 3 years there, and in my final year I got picked up by a cruise ship company to go and work on cruise ships as like an entertainer. Amazing. Best 11 months of my life, and definitely recommend anyone that's like looking to get into this career to do that.

When they came to you, what was like the emotion going through it? Was it like, this is absolutely do it, or how are you feeling? Because that first step is always very difficult.

Great question. I think, again, I'd spent 3 years at performing arts school. I wasn't a very good dancer. I wasn't a very good singer. And I thought I was an okay actress, but I wasn't very good at that either. So, I'd spent a lot of my life, probably without realizing it, just not being very good in the environments that I was in. And just kind of, I remember like being kicked out of ballet and sent to the headmistress's office and like in serious trouble. And somehow I always got away with it. Somehow I was still, still like the teacher's favorite. I was so bad at everything. I, I don't know how it was. That's been a bit of a theme throughout my life, maybe because I was never like particularly rude. I don't know what it was. Always like loved seeing how naughty I could be, but seeing how much I was like liked. So I think when I got the opportunity to go and work on the cruise ships, I didn't really even know if that's what I wanted, if that makes sense. But I was like, well, I've never really been picked for anything. I'm not like that good at anything. Like, shall I go and shall I go and do this? So it was kind of a jumping in full force, and I trained for nearly 3 years. So I was like, surely I've gotta use this for something. And I went and oh my gosh, it was incredible. It was the most amazing 11 months of my life. I got presenter training, which is almost like nigh on impossible to get, as I'm sure we'll get into. But the guy that coached me or was our mentor, how to hold a mic, how to interact with a crowd. So it was like an extension of the training I'd had, 'cause the college that I went to Ant and Dec were patrons and stuff like that. And Johnny Wilkes, it's called Wilkes Academy, he was kind of Robbie Williams's best friend, so he was kind of a presenter. So it did have elements of— and I was always very vocal about the fact I think I'd want to be— by the end of the third year, I was like, I think I want to be a presenter. So when I got the job opportunity, it was like, okay, let's just, let's just jump in. And, um, that's what I did. I went and worked for 11 months, was my contract, 7 days a week. So it was It was pretty intense, but it was amazing. It was like one of the best experiences of my life. And I totally recommend that for anyone trying to get into this line of work.

Yeah. And I think like, if not, you know, the industry of presenting, I think that general, that learning from that, you know, not being a bit naive can be like really powerful at times.

So powerful.

Do you know what I mean? Like thinking, you know, oh, 7 days a week, you know, for like, that doesn't sound— Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I actually do think, like, on that note, I think Oh no, it was post-cruise ships actually, sorry, back to you.

No, what happened post-cruise ships?

Well, I was just gonna say a lot of my friends that did go to university that sort of were like, I'm not really sure what I want to do. So putting to one side my friends that wanted to be like lawyers or doctors, you know, and they were very on, this is what I want to do, I know exactly what I want to do and this is the career path. And then I had other friends that were more creative or academic and just not 100% sure what they wanted and went to university I think what I got when I got off the cruise ships, and this is when I say I got distracted, I reckon I had 15 careers in the space of a year. I literally was like, I am gonna try everything and anything. And it was again one of the best things I could have done.

And okay, like, I don't know if we'll be able to go through all 15, but we'll be here for hours. Was there like intention behind what you were doing, or like, was it really just throw out the wall and see what stuck?

No, it was accidental. So I got off the ships and I got offered to go back. And although I think I don't regret many things, that's probably, I got an opportunity to go and be an assistant cruise director. I was 19 and that was like, I was the youngest on the fleet again. I just yabba yabba yabba yabba. Please make me stop. And was offered to go back and I said no. And it was, in the Caribbean, so traveling around the Caribbean, and it was only a 6-month contract. And I met someone at the time and I said no, pretty much because I just wanted to stay in the UK. So, but then COVID hit. So weirdly, COVID hit about a year later. So weirdly, I guess everything happens for a reason, because a lot of my friends that worked on cruise ships were then jobless. So when I then quit that job, I basically stayed in the UK and Yeah, yeah, I won't bore you with them. They were— I trained as a personal trainer, so I became a PT for a while. Um, I worked in, I worked in loads of different gyms, so I guess it's not far from it. I worked as a junior creative at company that my dad worked at. Um, I had so many in a really short space of about a year. I basically— a couple— well, one of them I got sacked from, so, which that happens to me every now and again. Sometimes I push the cheekiness a little bit too far. Um, and the others I just were like, right, that's not for me, that's not for me, that's 'Not for me, that's not for me.' And I sort of, in a weird way, I'm not— I've never been that bothered about what people think of me. So I was just a bit like, I have no mortgage, no kids, no family, like I have to try all of these different careers in order to figure out what I want.

Was it a manic depressive feeling, like, or were you just so aware that you had to go, like, because you didn't know what you wanted to do, you had to try all these things? Like, were you thinking, 'Oh, nothing's working, nothing's going my way,' or like, was it Right, on to the next, like the same energy.

Yeah, yeah, there are definitely things that I struggle with, so that's not me even— I just was like, life's too short to do something and be miserable, I think. And I guess maybe where I hadn't been very good at anything growing up, I'm— don't— rejection is not massively something that I suffer with. I'd suffer with a lot of other things, but someone saying no, you can't do that, or that actually you're not very good at that, I'm like, okay, no worries. Like, unless it was— I'm sure I'd be hurt now if someone was to say you're a terrible radio presenter. I probably would. So maybe I need to say that with a grain of salt, but I just was like, life's too short to not be happy in what I was doing. And I was doing these things and I was doing them for maybe, let's say, on average 3 months or whatever. And then I was like, but this just isn't making me happy. And then it was a case of, for me, it's always a case of like, well, why am I not quitting? Because of my ego. Because I've said, because I've just trained as a PT and I've done that, and actually PTing isn't for me. Like, I like the gym, but actually helping other people isn't, isn't my thing, kind of. And then it's like, so why am I still doing it? Who am I trying to prove it to? And I'd be like, well, no one really. My ego, maybe. I don't want my ego to be bruised because I've put a lot of time and energy into this. So for me, it was about like, I want to find a job that I can do every single day that doesn't feel like a job. That was my aim. And that's when I say I got distracted because I think deep down, I trained as a performer. I absolutely loved the radio. Music was a big part of my life. I think I knew the answer, but I knew that it was a hard graft, basically. So I was maybe distracting myself from deep down, come on, that's what you want to do, if that makes sense.

It's so interesting because, you know, you— one of the hardest things in your career is actually becoming comfortable with failure and rejection. And like, even though you weren't getting the traditional rewardment from, um, you know, education and assessments at school, that was actually like gearing you up to be like bulletproof, really a more useful skill in your career actually. And I think, you know, from the outside looking in, I guess we'll get into now how you actually landed, you know, a presenter role at literally one, if not the biggest UK radio. Um, but I think you have an energy that no matter what has happened, it's so infectious. It's so— the storytelling, like, it will come through the screen for anyone listening. And, and I think, um, you know, what If you take away the self-deprecating layer to yourself, which you clearly have, what do you think makes this role so right for you and you so good at this?

Okay, you're— this is— what does self-deprecating mean?

That you're like basically saying that you're not good at anything.

Oh, um, wait, what makes me so good at the radio, do you mean?

Yeah, if you're saying you're a bit so used to people saying that you kind of can't do this, like, yeah, why is this the right thing? Why would you be offended if someone said you weren't very good?

Oh, because it does feel like the only thing I'm good at, like yapping. I always use the word yapping. It does feel like, when I look back on my life, it feels like every situation I've ever been in, somehow I've been okay because I've been able to talk my way around it. There might be people watching this that disagree, but I've always liked the power of communication, probably less so yapping on a serious note. Communicating with people probably has always been where my strengths lie. I'd like to think I'm relatively emotionally intelligent and able to read a room and read an environment and probably my weakness is that sometimes I'll go too far with that. So I think that's always been my skill. And I think if someone said to me, you're not a very good communicator, I'd be a bit like, well, I don't know what I'm very good at then. I don't know what, I genuinely would be like, then what do I, I quite like business development, maybe I'd try that. But again, that's like communication and trying to build something, so.

And you were probably validated by maybe your friends and people around you as being a good communicator, but it wasn't until you landed this role that you're in now that you're like, okay, Maybe I'm a good communicator. Yeah, so tell me, what was the process like? How did that happen?

So radio is the hardest thing, one of the hardest things to get into, but once you're in it and once you understand it, it's a really, really, really small world. So I guess I'll give you my story, but also like advice for anyone that wants to get into it along the way, because if you want to get into it, it is the best job in the world and there is so much space for everyone. So never let that fear of the unknown put you off. But yeah, so going back, so after I had my like 15 different careers and COVID hit, I was really lucky. My dad worked in talent management growing up, so he looked after people like, in a nutshell, like Ant and Dec, who else did he look after? Like big kind of Amanda Holden, big kind of traditional TV talent. And COVID hit and I was literally jobless and I was like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And again, without delving in too much into that, my dad fired me over a period of time. He is a very successful businessman, but he's very, very cutthroat. And I think he felt a bit bad and COVID had hit. So that happened a couple of years before when I did some work experience there. He was like, you've got to go kind of thing out of personal issues. He was like, you can't work here anymore. And I was like, right, that's really helpful, which is when I then had my 15 different careers. So at the time, I think he felt bad and he was like, look, there's a really low-level team assistant got a job going, would you like it? Because I was like stuck, and I think I was debating going back on ships, and that wasn't going to happen. And I was like, you know what, I'll take it. So I worked at a really, really, really low level at a huge management company called YMU, where I assisted people like Vernon Kay. He was amazing. And Rochelle and Marvin Humes. This is like the most junior level possible. So I'm like booking the cabs, I'm like doing the bottom level stuff. Uh, so that was amazing and really gave me an insight. But because they were such high-level talent, it never even crossed my mind, oh, would I want to what they're doing. Like, Vernon was in the jungle at the time, so it was like, it just doesn't even feel like touchable. Um, and because my dad had run this company and things were interesting internally, um, it was an amazing experience. But I was like, right, I want to go and make a name for myself, and I think I'm good at this. I'm communicating, I'm looking after people. I think my skills are here. I think I would have been an okay manager. My attention to detail was terrible, but there we are. Another story. And I decided to go and start interviewing for other agencies that I admire. And at the time I interviewed for a company called Insanity, who are a huge management company again, and they are amazing. And Andy and Neil and Helen who run that company, they were like, come on then, we want you, try and make yourself over here. And I was like, woo, I've done it. I've found my career. Like, this is it. And I was a talent assistant. So like one level up. Just a bit more of a glorified team assistant really, just a bit more involved with the clients, contracts, like a bit more in it.

I like the idea of every job offer being like, come on then.

Come on then. Yeah, exactly. But it sort of was because they were competitors in a weird kind of way. So I was like going to a competitor.

Right.

And I felt like happy for myself. I was like, right, see you later, Dad. Like, thanks for the opening the foot in the door. You defied me once upon a time and now I'm going to a competitor. Which he was really pleased for me for. So that was amazing. And they were really good. And I felt like, I'm like, right, I'm stood on my own two feet now. Like, this is it. I finally found my career. I'm gonna be a talent manager. I'm gonna sign talent. I'm gonna grow. Felt like I was part of the family. And then I started getting this itch of like, I literally remember it. I'd started there in like the summer and then Christmas I went to Cornwall and I will never forget. And I remember being stood there and being like, I don't know if I'm that happy. And being like, I don't know if this is what I wanna do. I don't know if I see myself being a manager, like developing other people's careers. Hold on a minute, like didn't once upon a time, like you went to performing arts school, like you sort of knew, you signed a contract as an entertainer, like isn't that what you wanted to do? And then I got this itch and I went to Cornwall and I remember being sat, it was Christmas time and I had the privilege of being with my family and just having some downtime. And if someone that works in this industry is watching this, they'll know it's the one time of year that people do just stop for about a week So I put all of like my equipment, everything away, and I sat down. I was like, what do I want? Forget my ego, forget what people think, like what do I want? And I was like, I want to be a radio presenter. I was like, I want to be talking for a living. That is what I want to do. How do I make that happen? And it was so clear. And I was like, by the end of the year, I want to have achieved one paid radio gig. Don't know how, don't know why, one paid radio gig. And I was like, right, my first step is to get on community radio. And I dabbled in it a couple of years back, but one of the companies I worked for was basically like, you can't dabble in community radio, which I think at the time was probably not cool for them to have said that, but there we are. That was a decision that they made and I worked for them, so that was what I did. So I went back to Insanity in the new year and after my previous experience of my company, the previous company saying you can't do it, I said to my boss at the time, I was like, look, you guys make me feel so empowered, you make me feel so good. I'd really like to just do once a week community radio. It won't affect my work. Is this a problem? And they were like, nope. They were so supportive. I literally can't, I can't sing their praises enough. They were like, go and do it, absolutely. Like, you're a talent assistant, you're 22, like, of course you should be having loads of different hobbies. That's what you should be doing. So then I did a breakfast show on a community radio station, which, first port of call, I highly recommend anyone that wants to get into radio, you do a community show. And after that, the momentum really started to build. I started to post about it on social media. And then I was like, okay, come on, you're just kidding yourself now. Like, you probably don't want to do management deep down. You want to do radio. Like, maybe start putting yourself out there a bit. So I made it my business to get to know anyone and everyone within radio. And I literally mean anyone I could. Like, I networked that, that there was a period of time where I'd finish work. Like, you can't really do a 9 to 5 in management, but as close to it as I could. And I'd I'd spend 3, 4 hours weekends, evenings, you know, I was working 7 days a week emailing the managing director of every radio station under the sun, the number 2, the big, big bosses that ran the companies, you know, that own the big radio stations, everyone in it, consuming radio, just like absorbing. I think knowledge is power, and I just was like, I want to understand this.

What was the, um, what was the pitch?

The pitch was, I really admire you, I really love who you are, I love what you've done. As someone aspiring to be in a position like yourself one day, could I have 10 minutes? Could I buy you a coffee? Could I have 10 minutes of your time for some advice and a coffee? And often people would say, can't do a coffee, but I'm happy to do a 10-minute Zoom. And I'd go, absolutely, I'd love just your advice. And then I'd just say, tell me about your career. And I'd just listen to everything that they had to say, and I'd just absorb all the information that I could. That was honestly the That was the, that was the thing that moved the needle for me, but it was a very long process.

Yeah, again, I think like it's a message I tried to give out to students is like, when you have nothing to offer, the best thing you can do is just ask good questions and listen.

Just listen. Yeah, because you will learn so, so much. And also, you know, be clever about it. This is probably a naughty thing to say, but this is my little secret. Like, people love their egos being massaged. Listen, because when they speak at you for 30 minutes and at the end of it they go, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I haven't asked you a question, you go, it's okay, don't worry, please can I come in and 'Can I just be around it? Can I just—' They feel like they go, 'Well, yeah, actually, you're a really good listener and you're a good absorber, so absolutely come and make—' And then I'd be like, 'Okay, tick.' It's probably quite a good balancing act if all you did was talking and, you know, a yapper, as you say, like, and then you learn how to listen as well.

That is what makes you then an even better radio host, possibly.

I definitely have to work hard to listen, and I like to— I always say, like, listen with two ears. I think it's really easy just to kind of feel like you're listening and then not really take it in. But yeah, knowledge is, knowledge is so powerful, so powerful. So when I had those people in front of me, it felt like indirectly like that was an opportunity, basically.

So everything's starting to make a bit more sense to how you end up where you are right now. But what was the big, the big moment then, and how did that come about?

So the big moment was I managed to get I used to work for the BBC, so I managed to get BBC London on a phone call and I said, please, like, can I come in? Can I do anything? She was an amazing woman. And she said, where do you live? And I was living in Surrey at the time. And she said, can I put you in contact with BBC Radio Surrey? Mark, who, Mark Carter, who I still say now, regularly message and say thank you for believing in me because he was the first person to give me an opportunity. And I said, yep, sure. Short. So I had a call with Mark and he said, why don't you come in and shadow? So I went in and shadowed The Evening Show and it was amazing. And the producer on The Evening Show left and they said to me, we want to offer you a job as The Evening Show producer. And I said no. And they were so shocked. And I was like, I have spent 3 years— I didn't say this, but in my head I was like, I've spent 3 years pretending to do something I wanna do. I'm not about to accept a job where a lot of people say like, I love producing. I just didn't love producing. It just, I'm just, again, I'm not a good writer. I'm not very like good with information like that. It's just not my thing. I knew I couldn't support the presenter properly. And I knew deep down I'd just be thinking, let me have a chance. Truthfully. And he was shocked. And I think a bit, not— I'm sure he doesn't think twice about it, but probably a bit taken aback that someone so desperate just to make cups of tea and just to be in the building had said no. But it was probably one of the best decisions I'd ever made. He then said— a couple of weeks went by. I then said, look, I know I've like said no, but please can I send you some audio? Like, please, will I— will you just listen and give me any feedback? Which I'd quite often done. And he said, sure, no probs. And I'd got really good friends with a guy called David Miller who worked within the building, and he was like, to me, let's try and make this audio together, very kindly, just out of his own time. Um, sort of could see how much I loved radio and was like, let me try and help. I've been here for 30 years, um, maybe I can offer something. Was really lovely and, um, helped me create that. So I sent it to Mark, and Mark responded saying, can you remind me what you've done? And I hadn't really done anything. So this is my point when it comes to like the gift of the gab kind of thing. I'd literally done nothing. And I was like, yeah, so like 4 years ago I was the breakfast show host on Shoreditch Radio, which was all like pre-recording them from home. And then I got Riverside Radio Breakfast. I did it one day a week with a friend, um, and I've done that for the last year. And I've hosted this event and I worked on cruise ships, so I bulked out, like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, what it was like. And he was like, brilliant, um, gonna think about COVID down the line, but for now, would you like some shifts reading the travel? And I cried. I sobbed and sobbed. It was the first time anyone had gone we want to use you as a voice on air. I literally was like, oh my God, I'm going to get to talk about the M25. This is it. And it was like incredible. So that was my first ever kind of like broadcasting opportunity that Mark gave to me. Wow.

When you sit with everyone at Capital Now and you speak about your own journeys into it, are they all as like weird and windy as each other?

Yes and no. I remember when I joined Capital, which I'm sure we'll get to, and one of the presenters that was like to me, 'So what have you done pre-Capital?' And I was like, 'I covered a couple of shows on BBC Local Radio.' And he was like, 'What else?' And I was like, 'Nothing.' And he was like, 'What?' Like, so yeah, it— I can't lie, I think— and the story of how that happened was, yeah, a bit mad. So yes and no. I think that I think that people think it's harder now to go from a community station, like there used to be stepping stones and there isn't anymore, basically. So you have to go from community pretty much to national radio, and that's really, really hard to do. Really hard to do. You have to get really lucky. Yeah.

And I guess you have to create your own luck, right? Unfortunately. Is that what happened with the Capital gig then?

What was— So I was doing BBC at the time. I was then after that, after I'd done a couple of— I remember my first M25 reads. So I called it the M25 because so many people would be like, have I heard you talking about the M25? And I'd be like, that's me. I was like so proud of it. And I literally remember sitting in the studio. This is 101 for radio. Never walk into a studio with your phone on loud. And I was sat reading my phone and I think my mum was calling me to be like, good luck, darling. And I was on air and fortunately it was a cover presenter who was a lovely guy at the time. And I read the bulletin and my phone was pinging in the background and he was like, Lydia Rodford, is that your phone going? And like really made a thing of it. So That was fine, but there you are. I remember being like, that's it, I'm never going to be invited back. So I started doing a bit of COVID for them, which was amazing, and that, that didn't— like, that went from— the only show I didn't end up hosting on, on BBC Local Radio was the breakfast show. That was— and I was booked over Christmas, and then, and I think something happened and it moved. So that was in— I really cut my teeth there into paid radio, um, what works, what doesn't, how to be a presenter. And I loved local radio, but obviously I was 22, 23, and our audience average age was probably 60. So I recognized that for a lot of people, the minute I spoke, they were probably turning the radio off. As you can tell, I'm not very calm. I'm super loud. I had to try and be chill. I wouldn't drink coffee before I went on, put it that way, because otherwise I'd just be too much. And so I knew that probably deep down that that station wasn't going to be my forever home. Also unfortunately, if you know anything about radio, it was then what they call de-rigged. So a lot of stations were taken away, a lot of radio was torn apart to make space for more digital and other opportunities. So a lot of local radio basically disappeared about a year ago, and I was there, so I knew I needed to kind of jump ship really before it was too late. And where I was on this kind of rolling path, I didn't, I didn't want to miss that opportunity. So I emailed the big bosses within Global and I said And again, this is that gift of the gab, which is what I call it. And I was like, you know, like, I would do anything just to come in and kind of have 5 minutes of your time. And I'd really love to just be in and around it. Like, radio means so much to me and communication and blah, blah, blah. And they were like, okay, sure, we'll pass you over to this person. And I got passed over to— I don't— I can't remember his title, but someone within the building who said right, let's get you in for a demo. Or no, sorry, they said we'll get you in in the new year for a demo. So this will go back, not this Christmas, just gone, or the one before the one before that. Oh my gosh, I can't even, maybe that's too many. There we are. I feel like it might be one Christmas before that. And he said we'll get you in the new year after what we do is the Jingle Bell Ball. So, um, I was like, sure, no problems. It must not have— not this one, the one before. It can't work. I'm going back too far. And, um, he said to me we'll get you in in the new year. I— he said, in the meantime, can you get me a demo? And I had made friends. I was doing a part-time job. I'd made friends with a guy called JK, as in JK and Kelly Brook, who do Heart. And he said, before you send it, send me your demo. And JK was amazing. So this is my point as well, like, don't just network with managing directors and people that have power. Network with the presenters. People are lovely, I'd like to say. Like, people will give you their time and their energy, you know. Space for everyone in this industry. And JK was like to me, do you mind if I just chop it up a little bit? So my demo, which was probably about 4 minutes long and relatively felt like relatively long, went from what felt like a really accurate representation of me to a Capital demo. It was a minute long. It was so fast-paced. It was literally like, that was, this is, which I now understand why. I think listening back to it at the time, I remember feeling a little bit like, Oh, like, ah, that feels a bit— but I was like, but JK's in the building. Like, I sent the demo, the person that was in charge of all of this literally replied to me being like, can you come in next week? And I was like, oh my gosh, wow. So I sent JK like chocolates and a candle and I was like, you're the best person in my whole world. Um, and I think JK actually may have even started something to help creatives though. So big up JK, definitely, you know, go and follow him and touch base because he was a massive part of helping me. And I went in and I remember thinking, and I stand by this, what will be will be. I can only go in there and do what I have learned, what I've listened to. I was like the best prepared I could have been. I was so focused, like, I was like, I will go in there because that was always my thing going back to my GCSEs and stuff like that. We'll go in there and I'll give 110%, and if that 110% isn't good enough, then I'm okay with that because I can't be anything else. That was it. And I do massively, even now to this day, stand by that. Excuse me. And went in, did the demo, which must have lasted 10 minutes. It was like— anyone that's ever done a radio demo will get this. Like, you're sort of like bigging yourself up for this moment and you get there 2 hours before and you're sat outside and you're listening to the— and then you go in and you're like, done. And you're like, Okay, now what? Like, it's just this weirdest feeling in the whole world. What songs did they play in the demo? So the person that I did the demo with at the time is called Josh Doesn't Work There Anymore. He operated the desk, so I literally was like, you're Josh and I'm me. And he was literally like— I came up with like, like a couple of links that I had to come up with, and he was literally like to me, um, go. Like, to be fair to the, to the guy, like, bless him, like, he probably did 50 demos a week. Like, it wasn't that it was anything to do with me, it was just so like disconnected. Yeah, he just did the demo. So he was like, go, I'm gonna press this, I'm gonna press that. I think it was like— I couldn't even tell you what songs they were. I wasn't even like— I just was— remember, like, had a link on like Harry Potter and how I'd never seen Harry Potter, which I should stop admitting, I still haven't. And like, that was like one— it was around Christmas time, so I remember being like, oh, every Christmas, like, all my mum wants to do is watch Harry Potter. And I had that link on that, and that was it. And I walked out the room and I remember feeling like this weird mixture of emotions, but then I literally remember, because it's in Leicester Square, stopping and going, did I give, did I leave everything on it? Was I the best prepared I could have been? Was I as focused as I could have been? Was I in the best headspace I could have been? And being like, yeah, I think I was. So what happens now, what will be will be, and, and that was it.

And you got the job, and, and obviously now you're every day getting to work and live and breathe like your absolute passion. Yeah. And I wonder, you know, you spent years of your career not living and working in fashion. What do you feel like passion has done to your ability to excel, you know, realize the potential of what you can give and do in the future? What does it feel like to really work in something you're so passionate about?

It's nice to have these chats 'cause I think anyone that's made maybe their passion their reality can relate to this. Sometimes you sort of feel like you're still grafting. And I think anyone that's really sort of ambitious, maybe is the word, like you're sort of like, right, what's next, what's next, what's next? And it's actually, it's not about that at all. It's about looking about how far you've come. So it's such a nice question because it's nice just to take a step back and be like, oh yeah, I did do that. That's kind of cool. Feels amazing. I feel like I don't work. I do remember growing up, and thinking, I'd like to do a job where I feel like I don't work. I'd listen to a lot of probably pre-podcasts before they were emerging, or a lot of people, and again, like, really listening to what they were saying. And all the time I feel like people would be like, find a job that doesn't feel like a job because then you never have to work a day in your life. And that's how I feel now. I forget how lucky I am. I'm so privileged to be able to use, as we have established, my only skill— yapper, yapper, yapper— and, and do this. I feel so lucky and so grateful I'm so thankful because so many people helped me along the way. So many people were like, "Have you tried this? Have you tried that?" And yeah, and I just feel really, really lucky to be here and to be doing this day in, day out, really.

And I think what's amazing for the context this conversation has given that statement is that I think you've taken people on this journey that they're really rooting for you. And I think that ability to tell your story in your way, even in your job interviews and everything, I think there are so many like weird little side quests that people go on their career that are so much more formative to why they end up getting something completely unrelated. And knowing everything you had to go through to get to where you are now, what would you like to say back to that younger self who first was like, "Oh, radio would be quite fun, I quite like to do that." Like, how would you try and guide them a little bit better?

Oh my gosh. I wanna encourage anyone listening, whether it's radio or anything that requires putting yourself out there, probably. Just be you because chasing happiness and chasing like what genuinely makes you happy is so much more rewarding than someone you used to work with going, oh, that's a bit cringe, innit? Like, loads of my friends would be like, that's a bit cringe, isn't it? And it would bother me now more than it would do 4 or 5 years ago. So if you have that within you, like, massively hold on to that because once you're doing it full-time, you'll just absolutely love every single minute of it.

Yeah, I think it is interesting because obviously I, you see yourself, you know, you're featured on Capsule, which has all these massive following on Instagram, like you're being put out there every day. And, and I think you were like, even if you weren't living your passion, there's something enjoyable in that chase. And it's like, it's that classic when you, when you get there, then suddenly you're so like hyper aware. Oh my gosh. Like just how hard it was and how precious this, this role is to you. So true. But you know, if you need any reinforcement that what you're doing is great, like, you know, I've been following since you started that journey and, uh, and You know, it's— for me, I think I never had one of these like big career dreams when I was younger, and, and I've always just like loved the idea that people do love their work. I think if you're gonna spend so much time doing it, like— and that's why I explore these stories. And I think, you know, you, you not settling for that other job, um, you know, and saying no to it because it just wouldn't have been you. I think it's so sad to I see people not doing that. I agree. And I think really it's just about the allocation of somebody who wants to do something into the right role. It's not even like, it doesn't have to be the most glamorous role like radio. If they're happy doing that, then great.

Oh my gosh, chase happiness. Please, please don't chase anything other than happiness because you get one life and if you're privileged enough to be in a position where you can make choices within that, that's so much more privileged than most. So like, chase happiness. Like, there is nothing more important than that. But no, thank you. It's so lovely to have the chat because I am so privileged to be in this position and I feel so lucky to have been like, what am I good at? Okay, let's try and run with that. And not everyone has the ability to be able to kind of go and chase that. So yeah, it's really nice to have these chats and be reminded of it and kind of hopefully as well, like, radio is a really hard thing to get into, but you can do it. So I hope that anyone that's like, ums and ahs and thinks, oh, maybe it's, it's a bit too hard work. It is, but you can do it if you want it.

Yeah. And then my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is when you first started off, you would have had a certain idea of actually what success would look like within radio and your career more generally. You know, fast forward with everything you've been through, what is success to you in your career?

Happiness. Like, that question, like, for me, like, I could be you know, like, let's say fast forward 10 years' time, a breakfast presenter or, you know, a chart show host or whatever. Like, if— as long as I was happy, then that's like, that's what success means to me. And I think it's really easy for me to sit here and say that because I feel like I'm living it now. But for as long as it will make me happy, then that's how long I'll do it for. So yeah, for me, success is a measure of happiness rather than any role, any salary. Anything in between.

Yeah, and I guess like living with that mission can reward you in weird and wonderful ways as well. So weird.

It's the things that you probably don't think that will reward you, they're the things that reward you. It's the message in the middle of the night from the person that says, I've worked nights for the last 25 years, I love the music at Capital, like I've heard you're a new host, I just wanna say like your program literally gets me through the night and, you know, or at Christmas time when I've been doing those, like night shows and people say like, I'm super lonely, I'm spending Christmas on my own and I feel like you're with me. That's what makes me happy. Forget the kind of, right, we wanna offer you this huge slot. Like that's amazing and you feel incredible, don't get me wrong. But the joy comes from the communication and like making other people happy. Like that's the true power in like my job. That's how I feel like. It's only, it's mad. It like people that work, you know, like doctors and nurses and all of these incredible— they do, like, they really make a difference to the world. And sometimes I feel like, oh, I wish I could give, like, make some sort of difference in some way. So that's— things like that make me really, really happy because I feel like, oh, there's my purpose. That's— this is who I'm doing it for. I'm doing it for John that's on his own this Christmas and just wants to feel like he's got some company. Like, that's where I feel like the difference is made. Yeah.

And I'm sure you're making a massive difference in loads of people's lives. Thanks so much for coming on. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, a lot of people are thinking put a sock in it, but yeah, no, I'm lucky. So thank you for having me. It's really nice to chat about it. Thank you.