Mike Soutar, Non-Exec Director @ Scottish Rugby & Patrick Shea-Stamford, Founder @ Prolific Voices

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today, joined by Mike and Patrick. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

Hi there. Hiya.

So, um, I think an interesting way to start— I normally, um, ask people to explain what they do, um, but because you guys have the relationship that you do, uh, you know, working together, I thought it'd be interesting Patrick, can you explain what Mike does? And you're meant to know him inside out. And Mike, can you explain what it is that Patrick does?

Yeah, I mean, that's a really tough question to start with. So Mike is a fantastic investor for a variety of different businesses and an entrepreneur, obviously very well known from The Apprentice. So when I first come across him, of course I knew him from the TV and his past experiences. Of one of my favorite TV shows. I'm not just saying that because you're sitting next to me. And then in terms of LinkedIn and, and, you know, my, my past there of working there for 3 years, senior creator manager, I thought he had a fantastic opportunity to really talk about the businesses that he was working with but also build his brand outside of being known for The Apprentice TV show. And, you know, we've, we've created some great posts at the moment and really built that professional brand. And it's good to see him really accelerating and getting recognized regularly now as well.

And Patrick is a social media genius who's just set up his own agency, Prolific Voices. Our relationship is kind of mentoring each other. So I mentor Patrick on his business and how you scale a new business. Um, and Patrick mentors me in terms of building my, my social media, um, as well. So it's a kind of a really, it's a complementary skill base, which is I think one of the reasons that we, that we work really well together. Um, although I have to say this is a world exclusive. We have never been interviewed before together and it's going to be amazing.

Yeah. Uh, Mike, you've had a, uh, a really long and profound career, you know, being CEO CEO, director at many different companies. Why do you still have an appetite to, you know, continue building your name within the business world and, and actually growing a social media presence?

Oh, it's a really good question, actually. Um, for me, it's all about learning. You know, I've always, I've always wanted to work in places where I can kind of expand and learn new things. I've always had a kind of a curious mindset, I guess, and I've always tried to put myself in places of discomfort. Um, it's, it's where I kind of feel most alive, is you learn a new skill, you practice it, you fail, you succeed, and then you think, that's, that's amazing, I've got this, I've got this new thing now. And so I suppose that's been with me my whole career. It's been the reason that I moved from being a journalist to being an editor, then to move into the business side of things, be a managing director, be a CEO, then having worked my way up a corporate ladder, then go, actually, I need to do something for myself, gone off and, and being an entrepreneur. And then having had experience of being invested in become an investor and an advisor myself. LinkedIn, I think I've always enjoyed making content, you know, since I was 17 years, I was a professional journalist when I was 17 years old, not a very good one, but nonetheless I was being paid to do it and I've always really, really, really enjoyed that. And I kind of messed around a little bit on LinkedIn to start off with before I got a call from Patrick when he was at LinkedIn. um, to, uh, to say, I think, I think you could do this better actually. Um, and under his, uh, tutelage, um, and vision, I've started to do so many other things on LinkedIn, and it's been, it's been a really phenomenal experience.

Question for you both then. Um, Patrick first. I think there is a danger, but obviously a huge advantage, to building a personal brand for your career and building a company, right? And it can get you from a, you know, from a start that you would never have before to, you know, you've kind of had that online reputation where you could walk into a room, uh, or you could go into investment meeting and have that sort of pre-existing, um, swagger, shall we say. And, and I feel like it can give you a certain amount of things, but then as a sort of more traditional entrepreneur, there will be things that you just can't get and you need, you need aside from your social media presence. What would you say LinkedIn gives you and what would you say it doesn't give you?

Say LinkedIn gives you such an amazing platform to really, if you do it the right way, to really give you a growth base to really accelerate. So as a billion members now, which is huge, you know, it's one of the, the most trusted social networks out of them all, and I think it is the past 10 years in a row. So it makes it the ideal destination as a professional to do it. And if you do it the right way, that is, you know, thinking about what are your content pillars, what do you want to be known for? I do see posts from time to time where, you know, people are in the gym and it's, here's what I learned about B2B sales, right? That's probably not the right way to do things. It's more around, yeah, how can you do it professionally, but make sure that you are known for the things that you want to be, right? So, you know, working with Mike, we, we've discussed what those should be. And how he can really stand out. And even the same now with building my own brand, you know, I feel like spotlighting, spotlighting leaders who do it well gives me a good platform to showcase my credentials and what I've done in the past. I think what it, what it doesn't give you, and the dangers of it, is that you have to put so much investment of time to really succeed into it. You know, it's a, it's a whole job in itself. You know, the reason why I created that my business and why it exists is to solve that issue for these busy individuals. But it's, it is incredibly difficult platform. It's not like the others. You can't go viral overnight. And so it's just that how do you put that time into to see the output successfully afterwards?

I mean, for me, I think what LinkedIn does is the real benefit of LinkedIn is what it does for you in real life. So it's this, this fantastic platform that allows you to get your messaging out in a way which you're passing it, so it's kind of uninterrupted. You then get a dialogue going with, with, with people, with such a wide variety of people, which gives you introductions on the platform, which then you can use in real life. But the thing that I've noticed more than anything else is within my existing relationships— and, you know, I sit on several different boards of different companies of, of differing sizes, from Scottish Rugby to the V&A up in Scotland to, um, uh, a fintech startup, a data, uh, business— that in the business meetings I have there and the board meetings and the things that I do around it, it tends to be the first thing that people ask me about. So somebody that I meet in a business situation will often say, "I saw that post that you did on," whatever it happened to be. And that then becomes a conversation starter. So for something which establishes your credentials as an authoritative, thoughtful business figure, I think it's, there's nothing like it. It's amazing. I think one of the reasons that people like me of, you know, of my age, you said earlier on, I've spent quite a lot of time as a director of and running different businesses. I'm not a digital native. I'm too old to be a digital native. So therefore finding ways to be comfortable with that and get over it, get over that self-consciousness of putting yourself out there, of taking pictures of yourself or having other people take pictures, of doing videos and so on. That's why I found it incredibly useful working with Patrick, because he's that kind of safety net. He's that sounding board on all of that. I think you're doing this right. I think maybe try that again, you know, and it's really useful to have that expert guidance.

You, between you both, have worked at some of the biggest companies in the world, you know, be that Google, LinkedIn, or, you know, Evening Standard. But then you've also, you know, you're doing your own startup now. and you probably have invested in a lot of startups at the beginning. I think because this is a student podcast for careers, how can you help demystify what the reality of a career in a big corporate versus a startup looks like?

Yeah, for me in my career, so I left school at 17. I was kind of trying to be forced to go down the degree route, but I felt I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew that I wanted a career in marketing, but I didn't know where. I didn't know enough about it. You're not really taught that at school. So I went off and did an apprenticeship, and it was at Google to start with, which was fantastic and gave me such a brilliant platform to really grow. But with a corporate, there's— you learn a lot because you're surrounded by incredibly talented people. And Google, there's some of the smartest people in the world. Most of them all have degrees. So it was a good way for me to learn just the simple things of structuring emails, how to handle yourself in calls, like body language. And it was some of the things that they would never ever teach you at a school. But then in the startup world now, you are handling everything, right? You have to wear multiple hats. But also that experience in the corporate, I don't think I would be able to do as well as I'm doing now without that. You know, it just gave me such that 360 knowledge of all different areas, and now I'm able to handle multiple things at once to, you know, accomplish the— what I'm trying to achieve with the business.

A bit like Patrick, I, I didn't go at university because they wouldn't let me in, more than, more than anything else. It wasn't for lack of trying, I just couldn't get into the ones I wanted to. So I left school when I was 17 and became a journalist. I've worked in all sorts of different companies, you know, very small companies, very large companies, you know, multinationals, and also kind of quite regional ones as well. And they've all been an amazing opportunity to learn. I think, you know, I was 40 before I started my own business. And so I had 23 really valuable years of learning on other people's money and being exposed to some extraordinary mentors, some amazing role models, some people who—

oh wow.

And I think, you know, if as a graduate you can get yourself— it's just about a starting point. I mean, what you start doing is never what you end up doing. I started off writing horoscopes for a romantic fiction magazine. You don't end up doing that. But if you play your cards right and if you do the right things, it's just this extraordinary opening into learning how to do things kind of properly, formally, um, and that's really useful. So when I started my first proper, really second business, which was called Shirtless Media, I had been on the board of IPC Media, which was Britain's largest magazine publisher, for 6 years before that. That was my opportunity to learn corporate governance. That was my opportunity to learn how you structure something properly financially, um, um, and in terms of, you know, the, the hiring hierarchy and so on. And so I took all of those lessons into this tiny little startup. I mean, we started with 5 people, but I ran it like it was a company with 5,000 people in it. And what that meant was, by the time 8 years later that we were ready to receive, uh, an offer for the business, we had everything there. We'd run it like a— we'd run it— it was a really cool business, but the underpinning skeleton of the whole thing was incredibly conventional, was incredibly formal. So it meant when we went into due and they asked us for records of this or this or this, it was dead easy. Just give them to them, there you go. So I think that for me is the biggest lesson about being able to do both things. It's incredible launching your own business. It's also incredibly hard work. If you've got the opportunity to give yourself a basis and a variety of different experiences, because as Patrick says, you will wear every single hat going when you launch something, you will do everything. And so if you can get that, get a taste for everything whilst other people are paying you. It's perfect.

You mentioned due diligence there. I feel like you're somewhat known online for potentially people coming onto The Apprentice without having done that, and, you know, maybe a harsher critic in, in the, in the judging round. Uh, yeah, I think students nowadays, uh, obviously it's, it's easier than ever to start a company and be a businessman or businesswoman. However, there are a lot of things that we haven't been taught, you know, and I think a lot of us go into aimacy. What would you say, like, the 3 first things people should think of just to get the basics of building a strong, like, business with longevity?

So I think you need to start with a market opportunity. You need to be really clear about why you are different and better to any other business in, in, in the sector. It's the place where most startup businesses go wrong, is they underestimate their competitors because they don't do work on figuring out who's there and what they really do. People often go into starting a business on the basis of they kind of think that everybody else in the marketplace isn't very good, so they have this sort of sense of disdain. I'm going to be great, they're not going to know what's hit them. And then they get into it and they find out how much harder it is. When you get to that point, you need to know why it is you're different. What is your unique competitive advantage in the marketplace? If you don't have one, don't start the business. Wait until you've got one. Wait until you've figured out what it is. So, distinctiveness to begin with. Be super clear on your finances, and that means being super clear on your cash flow. So, you can create a P&L on an Excel spreadsheet. It's not terribly difficult. Definitely find somebody who's experienced in doing those things. Create the numbers yourself by all means, but get somebody who is a proper chartered accountant and ideally somebody who has management accountancy experience to run through those numbers with you and stress test them. But do the, do the cash, because what often happens is you start a business, your costs go out first and your revenue comes in later. People tend to pay you much later. When I started Shirtless Media, for example, we raised £4 million. We spent £2 million of that pound, of those pounds, before the first pound of revenue came in, because people didn't pay us for 90 to 120 days. 3 or 4 months after we had first paid out, and we were publishing weekly magazines. So, that cost really, really piles up before you start getting your money in. So, you've got those things, and then the last thing is team. You can't do these things on your own. So, you have to have a great team. You have to know how to empower that team. You have to know how to delegate properly to them, and you have to know how to trust them to do the right things. And then as a, as a leader of that team, you need to be decisive. Leadership is not a place for, for somebody who is uncomfortable making decisions. That doesn't mean that you have to make quick decisions all the time, but it does mean that you have to make decisions. You have to deal with the situation as you find it, typically with imperfect data at your fingertips, and then you have to make decisions. And sometimes those decisions are the right ones, and sometimes they're the wrong ones, but you can't dither in case it's the wrong one. And you have to hope that you make more right, best, good decisions than you make bad decisions. And when you make bad decisions, you have to hold your hands up really quickly and go, that was the wrong thing to do, and pivot and move.

And then, Patrick, if, um, if those are the basics, then I think one thing that's very hard to, to teach and you have to like cultivate is, is being authentic online and having that authentic voice. I remember when I first downloaded LinkedIn as a student, you know, I see sort of emojis flying everywhere, and I'd see, you know, personal branding gurus, and I just think successful people congratulating other successful people. And I thought, I don't know where I fit in on this platform. Like, how am I meant to find my voice as a student, um, on this platform? And I think it is difficult, um, finding, you know, what you really are and actually being able to, like, convey it online. So what would you say, uh, to maybe a student listening and getting going on that journey of finding your voice on LinkedIn?

Yeah, I think it's similar to what Mike's saying around building a business because essentially your brand is your business. It's how you're going to be known wherever you go. So I think about right now, what is your USP? What do you have differently? Is it where you've worked in the past? Is it work experiences that you've had as a graduate? Because that's what's going to make you stand out. So when I was— the reason why I landed a role at Google was because I did a lot of marketing support for free. At my local tennis club. I love tennis and it was a good opportunity because I got to work with what I loved, with my sport, but also marketing, with what I want to do in my career. So I think it's building up those things where you can put yourself in front of someone and say, right, I have a unique advantage here because I've got that experience. So then think about those pieces, then think, right, who is a key thought leader in the space that you want to go into? Now, what are the— a list of 5 to 10 people that you want to follow right now on the platform. So whether that is, you know, within marketing or in business, you know, I'd say think of the broad range that's going to give you a broad skill set, and so you can learn and grow from. And then finally, I would think about how can you then create content that isn't too self-promotional, but also you're going to help others as well, you know, in their, their own journey. So think, how can you create content that positions yourself as an expert, incredible leader. But also, if you are getting started, you know, be honest about the journey. You know, it's— I'm no expert in starting a business, and you know, that's why Mike's so fantastic to work with. But I'm continuously learning and growing from the likes of his posts and, you know, from our conversation. So it's how can I talk about my own experiences, which I have done. And you know, I spoke about the first few months of building Prolific Voices, and it's just be open and honest because it gives you that transparency. And I think if anyone was to approach me, then at least it's a real conversation that we could have, because by no means am I perfect, and, you know, I want to speak about the right things.

I think the other thing, just to say, just to build on what Patrick's saying, is if you're coming out, or if you're coming, you know, out of university as a graduate, then be yourself. You have to be really authentic with these things. Um, your greatest advantage at that point is you have a perspective that people older than that, more established than that, don't have. They've got old. You've come into a world which you see in a unique way, and I think there's something really powerful about that because people who may have a more established track record than you will listen to you because it's not their lived experience. And maybe you're part of a target market You know, you often will be as a graduate, you know, in your early 20s, you are a target market for all sorts of organizations. So, you know, write about the lived reality of that. Do things which are— nobody expects you at that point to be an expert in, you know, corporate finances, but you can definitely be an expert in what it is like being you right now.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I mean, it's literally It's what's given me my whole career, is being sort of youthfully naive online. And, uh, you know, I was just a history student. I didn't know what to do with a history degree. And while everyone around me was applying for consulting and banking and law because it felt like the right thing to do, I mean, I just got to the point where I was like, well, I'm just going to start saying I know nothing, but I'm going to try to talk to people that I think do. And I think that gave me like a really interesting way to take expert, you know, lived experiences and relay them into very tangible and digestible things for students, which I guess that's like a really like simple and great way to get going with LinkedIn, right?

Definitely, definitely. It's just being, being yourself, documenting the journey, um, thinking about how you can really stand out in the market. And I think for, for graduates, they have so— the skills and the talent that they're provided with now, you know, they're growing up in the age of AI and all of the the social media platforms, you know, things are constantly changing. For to go into a business where it's typically stale, let's say like a finance where they have traditional ways of working, to have a graduate who can come in and really be disruptive can actually propel the business a lot further. So it's being open about what skill sets you have and speaking about that, because even if people are not liking your content, they see it, right? We have noticed that as well. They would start a conversation. I know one of your recent posts you mentioned that, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, so yeah, it's just a good way to just keep putting yourself out there and just don't look at the engagements because it sucks you in. You're thinking, oh, why is this one not grown yet? So don't do it, just get it out there.

Yeah, I think we have a quite, uh, interesting and unique, uh, way of taking this conversation now is that you are in the world of social media and you are from the world of more traditional media. I think I wonder for, you know, a student that might be considering a career in either of them, how can you identify as someone yourself as someone just like really in like your, your natural, uh, being, like who is suited for a career in the world of media, be that social or, you know, more traditional?

Um, maybe I'll start off with this one. I guess the first thing to recognize is that there are lots of different roles within media. So people assume that media is all just for content creators. And in large part, that, that's the, that's the bit that you see. But sitting underneath that, there are lots of really important roles. You know, really great salespeople can do extraordinarily well in media because media's got this great ability, whether it's traditional media, whether it's social media, you can create things and you can create packages and then you can bespoke those for a client and you can go and you can do amazing deals there. So salespeople in media tend to be the happiest salespeople that there, that there are, and sometimes the most successful ones. If you have, you know, if you have coding and tech expertise, it's again an extraordinary place to be because sitting in support of content creators, you're able to do things that can kind of bring those alive. In terms of people who have good strong management and coordination skills, again, you've got, you know, content creators there who, often just because of their creative nature, may not be the most organized people in the world. And actually being able to coordinate that, shape that, push that in such a way as it turns it into a business, again, really, really valuable. And then over and above that, you have content creators, um, lots of traditional journalistic jobs, you know, being a journalist on a newspaper or in a magazine. That is in so much decline that it's almost the last thing I would ever advise anybody to go and do now. And because it's difficult now, it's going to get more and more difficult. Um, in terms of social media, I think there are more opportunities, and the great thing about that is the barrier to entry is really low. You know, you can, you can go and create that stuff. If you're good at it, it's like cream, it will kind of rise to the, to the top. So I think if it's content creation you want to get into, then certainly that There's one other thing I'd say, which is AI seems like an extraordinary shortcut. You know, ChatGPT can create things which kind of to the naked eye, you know, look really comprehensive and good. And I've written that really well. Writing's really difficult. Writing sits at the heart of everything, sits at the heart of business, sits at the heart of content creation. Writing, getting, getting something in order properly and relating it in a crisp way is probably the most important skill that anybody in business can have. Have. Um, but writing's really difficult because you've got to think straight, and thinking's the most difficult bit. And especially in the world that we live in where there are so many distractions. AI— the danger with AI is it replaces thinking. So I would advise anybody coming out as a graduate to use AI for different reasons, to use AI as a sounding board, as a reviewing technique, but never as a generating engine, because superficially it might look like they've done a really good— you've done a really good job. But if you haven't done the base thinking involved, you're not learning and you'll come unstuck. People will ask you about it and it'll be apparent that you didn't really know what you were talking about. So I think it's amazing, it's magic, but be really, really careful that it doesn't end up pulling the rug underneath your feet.

Yeah, Mike, you mentioned, uh, what, earlier on the episode, that you started off as a not very good journalist, you know, coming straight out of school. How did you go about actually finding your feet within that world and sort of emerging more to a leadership, you know, CEO position? Because that's not for everybody. But what qualities can you identify yourself to yeah, to actually find out who you are even within such a large scope of an industry.

I mean, to be honest, the reason I ended up managing people was because I wasn't a very good writer, and I recognized that, you know, I, I want to be the best in the world at whatever I do, right? That's my core motivation for everything. Um, and I'm— I've never been the best in the world at anything, but I keep striving, right? Um, and what I recognized was I was working in magazines with some amazing journalists who made it look incredibly easy, and it was really difficult for me to match them when it came to being a writer. And what I had to do in order to try and match them was I had to try and— I'd like to work really hard to figure out what it was they were doing. So I kind of kept pace with them, but I was never— I was never going to be the best writer. But what it made me was a very good editor, because I could then work with writers because I understood their craft in a more process-driven way than they did. Their way was very instinctive, and I could help them to unpick it and put it back together in a better way. So I became a, I became a good editor really quickly, probably by the time I was about 20, 21. And I was really happy to give people direction. So I was really happy to go out. I mean, I was the editor of Britain's biggest teenage magazine when I was 22 years old because I was really happy to give direction to journalists, send them out there on all the glamorous assignments, and be me back in the office working hard over, you know, over the, over the kind of copy that went in there. So I learned that, I learned that very early on, and it, and it felt kind of natural to me. I wasn't afraid of making decisions. And, and ultimately, if that's what you want to be as a leader, it's, you know, you find your niche, you find the opportunity to take responsibility, you turn up all the time, you, you become incredibly reliable. You never miss a deadline, ever, ever, ever. Doesn't matter what happens. That gives you a reputation, therefore, for always delivering. And, and it, it allows you then— it gives you the authority to ask people in a direct way to go and do things, and they will go and do things. And then you just build from there.

And then, Patrick, for yourself, you know, starting off with more of a generalist apprenticeship How did you find your own feet within the world of social media and, and, you know, land on, on the impact that you're having within that world?

The biggest thing was listening, just listening to people around me. I mean, as I say, when, when I was at Google, there was just so incredibly smart people, so I just let them talk. And it was just hearing about how they would handle things, sitting in strategy sessions And what was great about the time at Google was I was in a retail product marketing role with the Google Chromecast. But then I expressed interest in YouTube because of course YouTube is owned by Google. And I thought, what a fantastic opportunity to try and get my name out there in the business as much as possible and try and spend time with the team, meet and have coffee. So I think it was just listening, spending time with people, and that really gave me the platform to think, right, how can I handle myself in these sessions now? And then be pitching to, to others in the business and think, right, how can I take as much in? Think, how do I learn and grow with this strategy? Because YouTube is such a beast in terms of how you can stand out on it, right? It's— now they say it takes at least 30 videos to really get going on something. So I thought, well, how can you do it? And what learnings can I take for other social platforms as well? So I think that was just a huge part of, of my growth journey. And, you know, listening is so key. I think when, when we're so young, we want to create that first impression and we want people to like us, but it's just asking the right things and then just listening and letting them talk.

I think that brings you nicely on to sort of mentor-mentee relationship that you have here. I think a lot of students hear about the significance, you know, find a mentor. So you hear a lot of things, uh, as you never really know what a good version of that looks like in practice, or even how about how you go about getting one. Um, your relationship, I guess it's happened more naturally, but even then you probably had to work on both getting— giving and getting as much value from it as possible. What have you come to realize is the best way to give each other as much value as possible?

I mean, look, talking and listening, you know. Um, Listening is an underrated art, partly because people often listen in order to kind of impress or ask the next question, whereas real listening is about taking on board uncomfortable truths and hearing what people are really saying. If even if they're being quite polite, you're like, okay, I see what you're really saying here. So I think, um, how do you go out and Get a mentor. I think it's almost like anything, which is starting small is not a bad idea. I am asked to be a mentor for lots of people. I have to regrettably say no to 99.9% of people because I just don't have the time to be able to do that and also do the other things that I do. But I have always, through my career really, I have always had mentor or mentee relationships, but they've just been kind of scalable. So, you know, finding somebody who is happy to mentor you, they don't need to be a well-known person. They don't even particularly need to be, if you like, an ostensibly successful person. It just needs to be somebody that has experience. And as it takes a while to learn how to be a mentor, when to ask questions rather than when to state, you know, this is what you should do. And I'm still not very good at doing that. Yeah, I still, I still work on that. I, I very, very often I'll go, if I was you, I'd do this. She shouldn't really do as a mentor. You should go, have you thought about blah blah? You should frame these things as a question.

You can't really prescribe career advice, can you. I think that's a big learning that I've made. Like, people can tell you this or that, but until you actually have learned it yourself and you've kind of, you know, maybe been slapped in the face by the reality of it, it's hard to actually know it as gospel, right?

Yeah. And, and as somebody who is receiving mentorship, you, you need to work at that. And so therefore, starting with somebody that you know a bit and just asking them— again, they don't need to be that far ahead of you in terms of in terms of where you are in your career. They can just be a little bit— they can be at the same level, it's fine. If they're— if you think they're good at giving— if they're a good sounding board, if they've got the patience and the time to be able to, to listen to you. And then you need to prepare before you go in for a mentoring session because you need to be super clear about what you want out of it. So if I'm on a call with somebody for the first time for half an hour, I will often say, What would you like out of this call? What are the outcomes you want out of this call? And we'll make a note, we'll try and get there. If they don't know what it was they wanted out of the call, I'm thinking, but you asked me for the call, not the other way around. So being super clear about it, I think, is really useful.

Yeah, I was going to say the exchange of value as well. So for someone like Mike, I knew he was very well known. He was a man in demand for sure. So I thought, what is my compelling pitch that I could add value to him but also add value to me? So initially when I thought of approaching Mike, one, I thought he's the best in, in business to kind of give me the advice that I'm looking for. But also I only considered it as a one-month kind of trial in terms of— I said to Mike, here's what your competitors are doing, here's what you need to be doing better, and if you don't, you're going to really fall behind. So I said, all I'm looking for is said, for one month I proved to you kind of the success that, you know, you could have here, and then in exchange I would just like your advice. And that was it. And, you know, one month has turned into, what, a year now, and here we are sitting next to each other. But I think that's just a great way, because I think when, when you're young, of course you want advice from the biggest and the best, but you have to think of the value exchange. What could I give them in return? Because As Mike said, he's approached all the time and 99.9% of times he's saying no. So what could you do differently to get that value exchange?

I didn't read the small print, did I?

Didn't realize—

oh, hang on a minute.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I want a contract.

What? It's an important point though, because I think, um, like even what I've been able to do and, and building The Graduate off the back of really knowing nothing, I actually found the USP was that I was asking a line of questioning that these successful people weren't aren't used to, or like being taken, you know, I think there's value in that, right? And that's something that the younger generation should take. It's like, okay, if you can't offer like, you know, really, um, you know, loads of wisdom or an actual valuable product, how can you just ask a question that's compelling that they wouldn't normally get and make them want to reply, start a conversation around that? Um, and so yeah, and then the, the listening, um, point with mentorship I mean, when I was, when I was hearing you say that, it made me really want to ask about, uh, with the, with The Apprentice, you will be given, you know, whether it's very harsh or not, feedback to people on their business models and their business plans. Some will hear that and they'll maybe crumble or think, okay, I'm just never going to go ahead and do anything with this. But others will really listen and take that on and build on it. Is there a case study or a favorite one you've got from the years you've been doing of someone that's taken your feedback really on board and gone on to build a really great company out the back of it?

I mean, there have been a few really great companies built out the back of it. I can't, I think, claim credit for having given all of them the feedback that kind of made the difference. But I think the process that they go through, they see 4 different, you know, interviewers and they're given a relatively robust going over by, by all of them. Um, when I've spoken to, when I've spoken to candidates afterwards, because often you kind of stay in— I mean, it's— I meet them for the first time in the interview room, never seen them, never met them before. All I know about them is their business plan, their application to be part of the process, their CV. I've done my work on it. Now it's time for them to, to, to, to kind of stand up to that scrutiny. But often afterwards, maybe with things like your Fired show or whatever, I'll end up meeting them, you know, outside of the process. So stayed in touch with a few of them over the years. Often what they talk about is they learned that their business plans were too ambitious. It's almost always the case that somebody thinks that they'll achieve their goals much quicker than they will, or that they will get to, we'll have £5 million a bit in year 2. And you think, well, no, you won't.

Why do you think that's what they they think they should put on there?

Partly it's, it's, it's because they want to stand out, partly, partly because they don't know any better. Because they've— what they've done is they've done a, they've done a formula that says, I'll sell twice as many each year, I'll double my sales, and I'll put my prices up by 15% each year. Typically completely unrealistic ambitions. You're either going to increase your volume or you're going to increase your yield. So sell the same number of units, but you might be able to charge charge 5% more, maybe, or sell 10% more units, but actually your unit price is going to, it's going to stay the same. Um, or they're going to do this and they're going to do this and they're going to do this, and they've, they've, they've, they haven't focused in on the, on the heart of their proposal. And so very often what they say afterwards is, I went back to my business plan, I looked at it, I realized I was overreaching, and now I've reset that. And actually, you things are pretty good now. I'd say probably 30% to 40% of the businesses that come in front of me end up being businesses, and the rest of them are entrepreneurial people that end up going and doing something else, but have learned a huge amount from the process.

And I think one big thing that I've seen a lot of value in doing this podcast is taking people like yourself where they would have built a certain idea of, you know, who you are, um, yeah, and taking that from, from online and then really actually finding out just your, your true natural self, you know, maybe they even just going back to when you were much younger, like who was that, that younger Mike? And the same for you, Patrick, like what is both your like natural selves and then how have you actually been able to like build on that for your own career, do you think?

Well, should I kick off on this? I mean, it's an interesting thing, right? What you see on The Apprentice is a version of me. It's not— I'm not an actor, you know. None of it's scripted. Um, I mean, I wouldn't be able to remember any of it. Um, uh, it's all— it all happens for real in the room. There are no retakes, you know. This is not set up. This is for real. Um, and what I do is I get myself into a certain mindset. My mindset is Alan Sugar has asked me to ensure that he doesn't invest— that he invests in the right person person, or certainly not in the wrong person. So I imagine there's £250,000 piled up in kind of, you know, £10 notes behind me, and the person in front of me needs to get past me to get there. So it allows me to be, um, outraged if somebody hasn't done their, their homework properly, if they've been sloppy or casual about what they've said, if they've, if they've made things up in order to try and make themselves look better. I want the truth. I just want to get to it. So Often what you'll find, the things that end up on television are when people aren't willing to admit the truth and I am pushing them to own up to it. And still, yeah, and still they're pretending it, you know, it wasn't them that wrote that thing on Amazon when you know it had to be. There's only one person in their business. Who else was it? You know, and it's so often in life, it's not the mistake that you make, it's trying to cover up that you made a mistake. And so that very often is the thing that carries the drama in The Apprentice. What am I like as a person? I am a very optimistic, pretty sunny kind of a person, to be honest. I am kind of enterprising. I want to make the world a better place in whatever ways I possibly can. I want, you know, I want there to be better business in Britain, you know. I want Britain to be a fairer place. I want to be happy, and being happy and fulfilled is all about trying to devote yourself to those big missions every day.

How about yourself, Patrick?

Yeah, well, when I first met Mike, I was absolutely petrified because I saw all of the clips on The Apprentice and knew very well of him. But it, yeah, you, as you say, what you see is what you get, right? So for me, it was incredibly important to show up online, you know, as my authentic self. You know, like to think very family, family-focused man, and, you know, I just want to do the best for my family. You know, I, I don't have a degree, none of my family have a degree, so I've just always wanted to kind of make them proud as well. And I've always had that hunger and entrepreneurial mindset to do that. So for me, it's whatever I put out, you know, whether it's the videos now or, you know, it's images of myself. It's just making sure that it's doing that in the right context that can help others, because I want them to do well. You know, I wasn't brought up with that silver spoon, but also, you know, I found it incredibly tough, and it was very challenging when, when I was growing up because I didn't feel I had the, the opportunities from people that I would have liked. So it's knocking on the doors and putting yourself into the rooms where you can actually, you know, think, what is the value exchange here? And be really tactical with it. And, you know, I am very proud of where I've got to so far. And I see this is now the start of, of really this entrepreneurial journey where I've kind of done that corporate side, but I want to be real authentic. You know, I've met a bunch of amazing people during my time at LinkedIn, incredible leaders. I got the chance to work with the Branson family as well. So it's how can I now more because it is such a small world. How can you prove who you say you are online? So whenever someone comes up to you— so I've been out before just grabbing a coffee and I'd get a message on LinkedIn, I just saw you in a coffee shop. Oh, okay. So it's, you know, being there, just being active and just showing, showing what you're doing.

Yeah, I find it funny that the followers that I have on LinkedIn are actually real people. It's hard to actually remember that until in person you have that interaction and yeah, like, actually, you know that all that stuff you're writing and all that time you put into it, it means something for Solver, right? But I think my final question to you both is, when you first started your careers, you might have had a certain idea of what a successful career would go on to look like, but fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success in a career and how has it changed from the beginning? Mike?

Ah, it's a great question. What did I think when I started? I mean, I kind of couldn't believe that I'd landed on my feet and got a job in a big publishing company at the age of 17. I mean, even then that felt like, all right, okay, so I've made it. I could not have foreseen the different things that have happened over 40 years now that I've been working and, and pretty much non-stop for, for that entire time. Um, uh, I think that, um, what was the core of your question?

Just success. What does it mean to you and how has it changed from that beginning idea of what it would look like?

So I think success to begin with was really all about, you know, what, what, what could it get me, what sort of status could it get me both professionally and what what would the rewards look like? Would I someday be able to buy a house? And, you know, would that be a basis for my family? And all that kind of thing. And I achieved quite a lot of status relatively early on in my early 20s. And, and I was— I had the means to, to kind of set a base for, for my family. I've got two boys that are both in their mid to late 30s now. I started that young as well. Um, so I kind of got a taste for success this relatively early on. Since then, it's been about what am I— success is what I'm proud of. So what are the achievements that I've, that, that I've had? Not necessarily awards, but, you know, in terms of creating a company that, you know, employed, you know, more than 200 people. I'm incredibly proud of all of that. That started with me and one other, um, I'm really proud of the work that I do on various boards, the V&A Museum up in Scotland, the Scottish Rugby Board. These are things that give me tremendous, tremendous fulfillment, and they are based, I think, on my relentless commitment to turning up and being there. And, and so, yeah, success, success for me will be if I could have another 10 or 15 years of that That would be, that would be absolutely terrific at this level. That would be absolutely amazing. But I know I'm gonna have to turn up every day in order to do that.

Yeah, likewise. I think for me, it's— I also accelerated quite quickly, you know, to get an apprenticeship at Google, and it really does fast-track you. So it's finding, you know, where, where those big moments are in your career and really taking advantage of them. And I've made a bunch of mistakes and I've learned and grown, but I've always stayed with the same mindset so early on. And that's just to try and do well, whether that's just for me, because I always move at 100 miles an hour. I hate standing still. Whenever there's a quiet moment, I always think, oh, what else could I do? So I'm always trying to self-learn and things. And I think if I can get to the point now with— I've kind of done that corporate career. I don't want to go back to it. I think I reached a ceiling and it can be levels of restrictions, there's red tape and so on, where now it's, yeah, it's your own business and there are a lot of successes, there are a lot of failures, there are a lot of challenges. So how can I continue to stay with that mindset? And I think overall, if I can continue doing what I'm doing and have that ambition to achieve, and I believe I can get there. And I think for anyone, I think that's what you should stay with. Like, never dwell on the mistakes. I think it only makes you a better person in the long run.

Patrick, Mike, thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks so much, that was great.

Cheers.