Niall Cleaver, Founder @ Cupsly

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today is a very special day, uh, we're joined by our guest Niall. Niall is the founder of the company Cupsly, and, uh, he has a very interesting story, having built a massive brand on LinkedIn before he's even released his product. So there's so many learnings that students can take from it. Uh, welcome to the podcast.

Cheers, yeah, thanks for having me, excited to be here.

Yeah, so let's start at the beginning because, um, Yeah, you have an interesting route to get into this point now. You actually didn't go to university, you worked a couple jobs, have tried some different projects, but you've, you know, you've found that being a founder is what like makes you tick.

Yeah.

When was it you realized that you have to be doing something for yourself?

Yeah, so I basically grown up really struggling with school the education system. I later found out that I was dyslexic, but I actually left school with no English qualifications whatsoever. And, you know, I was trying to find jobs, handing in my CVs, going into places, and basically kept getting rejected all because of that qualification I didn't have. So I started working for my dad. It was the only real job I could get, but I've never been the kid that wanted to basically work for my dad for my whole life. So that's when I started, yeah, documenting my journey on LinkedIn and just trying to create a bit of noise for myself to give myself the best opportunity, and then I kind of fell into building Cupslee along, along the way.

Yes, and for those that don't know, what, what is Cupslee exactly?

Yeah, so Cupslee is Britain's luxury coffee brand, with Phase One being a luxury reusable coffee cup where we envision a world where luxury, fashion, and sustainability intersect.

So the actual product that you're building, like, what made you feel like this was a problem —like, problem that you needed to solve it? Like, why this product?

Yeah, so I've been a massive coffee lover for the past 7 years, and I was actually standing in my local coffee shop and wanted to do my bit for the planet, be a bit more sustainable. So I actually bought a reusable coffee cup, and they were just ugly. And, you know, it's been sat in my parents' house cupboard gathering dust. And yeah, it was there when I thought, you know, if I were to buy a reusable coffee cup, I would like it to match my aesthetic and kind of match my style. So I remember reaching out to a couple of friends with the idea, and some of them loved it, some of them hated it, but the more I kind of— the more people I asked, the more positive feedback I got. And that's when I kind of reacted to kind of create a statement piece, something that, you know, people would be proud to use and proud to hold, but the main focus being on the aesthetic and how it looks. So hopefully, you know, I think a massive focus point for Cupsy is if we want to make sustainability more popular, we first must make it more attractive. So that's when I came up with the idea to, you know, build a fashion accessory, but, you know, a functional reusable coffee cup as well.

Yeah, I think that's definitely true because I've been given reusable coffee cups as well, and like, I think it's one of those things that when you get them, you're like, oh, that's cool, I'll definitely use it. And then it does— it never becomes quite like, oh, you need your wallet, you need your keys. Like, when you're leaving the house, it's not something that you like remember consciously to bring with you. Yeah. But if it was like something, like you said, that like suited your outfit, like, and even people love, like, you know, cool branding and just, you know, alternative ways of showing off, like, their style. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And one thing I'm curious about in the journey is you've managed to, you know, team up with a very big co-founder, Rachel. Rachel, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, how did that come about? Because, yeah, I mean, she's obviously done a lot in the marketing space beforehand, but have that amazing happen?

Yeah, so I founded Cupslee in June 2022, and Rachel actually came on board in December 2022. But we all met through actually LinkedIn. We were both on similar journeys where, you know, I was building Cupslee from my parents' spare bedroom basically, and Rachel was doing the same. She was building it from her mum's house. And she's obviously built a massive business with— because of marketing. I think she's around 300,000 followers now altogether and worked with, you know, incredible brands. And I basically loved her journey of what she was doing and the knowledge that she brings within the marketing space, you know, someone I looked up to. And I remember thinking in my head, there's no way I'm going to get her to become co-founder, there's no way, like she would never respond to me if I sent her a message. So I actually went and messaged her on Instagram instead of LinkedIn and basically just said, I've got an idea, you know, can we grab a meeting and see if it's got legs? And she was like, yeah, I've got this space, and 2 hours later we're on a call. Basically pitching her the idea of what I wanted Cupsy to be. And yeah, I asked her to help first. It was just to help me with all the marketing, how we can, you know, get the exposure we want with the right people. But the more kind of we went along this journey, it was okay, I could really do with a co-founder, someone whose skills are much better than mine within the marketing space. And luckily for me, yeah, she accepted, which was nice.

I think that's how these things start. It's like, I think it can be made to seem a lot more complicated, but actually the process of networking, and you hear that term and you think like anxiety, like lots of people in a room that you don't know, and yeah, and really it can just be, you know, I'm naive, I'm young, I'm looking to learn, I think that you can help me do that. And like, that's— I think there are very few people that are gonna say no to that for whatever reason. Maybe it's like it complimented the ego. Maybe it's like, you know, it's good for them to learn from people younger than them or in a different space to them. And yeah, either way, it's, it's similar to a business. You just kind of have to put it out there. And I think LinkedIn, as you've clearly identified, is a really good way to, you know, sort of speak into existence what you are. Like, if nobody else is going to give you that— yeah— checkbox, like, you know, you don't know how to speak English. Yeah, yeah, I know you do know how to speak English, you're speaking English right now. But yeah, you need to, as you said, hype yourself up. How did that actual posting journey start? Because there's a lot of anxiety and like, you know, or even like fear of cringe that comes with that as well.

Yeah. So I actually still cringe now sometimes when I'm posting, but it all started when obviously I wanted to create something for myself and not work for my dad for my whole life. And I remember sitting in the front office of his offices, and I was actually reviewing Gary Vee's first book. And I remember writing it up, and then I deleted it because I was like, I cannot post this, you know, if all my mates see it and all that normal stuff that you fear, you know, I can't do it. So I remember deleting it, and the following week I came back to it and wrote the exact same post and then published it. And it was the worst post I've ever put out, but it was just a starting point. And I think, you know, a lot of people struggle with the starting phase. Where I think that's the most important phase. The starting is always the hardest, the most that you fear. But now, you know, a year and a half from this journey, without that post that I would have done, I would never be meeting the people I am today. You know, the likes of Marc Randolph that's connected with me, CEO of— co-founder of Netflix. You know, Ben Gallagher, Looks Collective, all these kind of people that I'm now connected with. I never would have done that if I didn't press post on that first post.

Yeah, and, uh, I think when I started posting, I always like to sort of hide behind the fact that I'm a student and there's no real expectation for me to be like good at this or understand it at the beginning. And I think people have sort of different motivations for when they feel comfortable to begin doing it. And do you think from what you said there, yours was maybe a little bit more from like that desperation feeling to like change your situation?

Yeah, I 100% think it was that kind of last resort, you know. I've got nothing else to give, really, you know. Couldn't find a job, was my rugby days, because I played professional rugby back in the day as well. And when I kind of broke my leg and stopped playing that, it was— I was desperate. Like, I don't, I don't want to be that person that works for my dad, you know. I've got a twin brother as well. He was at Microsoft smashing it.

And then there was my other brother who ran his own business, and they were just like 'Yeah, not for me to work for someone else, let's try building something for myself.' Yeah, in the same way that you can have different things that fuel your reason to start something, or Pose or anything, the actual concept for a business idea, you can be really passionate about an idea, but I think maybe what's more motivating to keep on doing it and understanding your reason for doing it is to actually be annoyed that the solution that you want to give doesn't exist. And I guess that, that's where, you know, that product design came in. And then actually the ability to take that and then, you know, essentially pitch it to your now co-founder. What was it in the initial days? Because I don't know if it's the same product now, as I'm sure it probably would have changed a little bit. Like, what do you think she bought into in the early stages?

I think she's a massive coffee lover as well, which is always a benefit, but she's had the same struggle of you know, she was buying our competitions kind of reusable coffee cups, and she said the exact same thing. Most of them are not that high-end in quality, and the aesthetic that we're trying to present just wasn't there. So I think she bought into the aesthetic of what we're trying to achieve, but the further, like, along the journey we came, we noticed more gaps within the whole coffee industry that we kind of want to poke at and see if we can make a dent in it.

Yeah, it definitely seems like you're already doing that even without the products out there. I think like obviously when in the sort of lead-up to the release, there's a bunch of different ways that you can market a product. You can go down like paid advertisements, but you've almost, between you and your co-founder, got like what a lot of people and business owners don't have. It's that sort of natural free marketing, um, and You know, one of your posts, they all seem to, like, you know, from the outside looking in, like, completely bang. Like, they're always, like, at least 300+ likes. And you say you still, like, cringe about putting them out there. Does that, like— do you still get, like, that anxiety about how that post is going to perform, knowing that that's, like, your core form of marketing at the moment? If I didn't, I would lie.

I still— last year was a massive kind of, you know, I always looked at people, um, that were kind of doing really well in the space, but they were nothing to do with what I'm doing. They were all in the, the personal branding space, the agency world, and I kept looking at them and they were like absolutely smashing it and they deserved it, but it wasn't that the people that I wanted to connect with because I wanted to reach out to startup founders and people like that. And when I started, you know, focusing on me more and starting looking in my direction that I wanted to head in, less pressure was on me. And it's weird because my posts started performing even better when I started looking inwards, not outwards. So yeah, I definitely, yeah, still cringe, but it's getting easier now. And there's not that, you know, I'm just telling my story, so there's not a lot of pressure on me to every post has got to do well. It's if I can help one person, that's a win for me.

It is interesting you mentioned personal branding and people with agencies in the space, and like, absolutely no disrespect to them, like, I know everyone knows how important it is, and like, you know, that they could be working for some of the top clients, maybe just out of the time to do it, but need to build a personal brand. And I think, you know, if you look back at like people like Richard Branson, for example, like, he's in my, like, my eyes, the person who pioneered that need to have like the brand associated with the founder. And yeah, I mean, you could have very easily— and I think even maybe you did go down the agency sort of route— but did you find it a lot more powerful to latch it on to an idea, like, like, you know, to a business, and, and want to be seen as a founder of like a product, a company that someone can use, instead of just maybe the agency sort of thing?

Yeah, if I— I obviously ran a personal branding agency in the past as well, and I think if I'm being totally honest, it was again that desperation. I just wanted to jump on the next trend because it was, it was on the upward scale at that point, but it just wasn't something I was passionate about. And all the time that my passion projects, you know, during COVID I started a clothing line just because I got bored and things like that. I've always been creating something from nothing to something, and I think having a physical product is so more meaningful to me because you see it from, like I said, literally nothing, and now you've got a physical product in your hand that people potentially will buy. And I think that gives me a lot more, a lot more drive to see it to see it succeed than kind of a service-based does.

Yeah, I feel like from what you said, your family are quite entrepreneurial and driven, and you know, at the end of the day, you are a product of your environment. And given that you didn't go to university and, you know, maybe there weren't many people doing the same route as you other than your family, like your family being around you, which I'm sure again was a big support What were your steps to actually surround yourself with people, like-minded people that could sort of motivate you and drive you and feel like, you know, yeah, you're on a journey sort of with them?

I think that was tough because I never really had anyone that kind of, you know, outside of my family really believed in me at the beginning. All my friends were the ones that would always go out partying and everything like that, but I was just really driven to make something. And it's actually funny now because I look back at the journey and no one was there when I started this. And ever since I started on LinkedIn, all my closest mates now are all other creators that are building businesses and documenting their journey on LinkedIn that I would never have met if I didn't. So I think that's what LinkedIn's really given me, is that platform to meet people that are on the same journey as me, that we're, you know, I never have all the answers and the most successful people I've met are there to guide me and help me now. So yeah, I've never really had that supportive kind of system outside of my family that I can remember anyway.

Yeah, we're probably going through a similar thing that happened to sort of the title YouTuber, being a YouTuber. Like, when I was a kid, it like, even though I consumed it, it was definitely like, you know, the Sidemen, they were kind of seen as like, like kind of loser-ish, or, you know, Yeah, definitely the mainstream didn't appreciate them, and now like everybody's seeing, except, you know, growing up going, I want to be a YouTuber, I want to be like that person. And I think, you know, even when I first downloaded LinkedIn at the start of university, just the whole like way you like sort of congratulate people and like the way you have to comment or whatever, like it is definitely a barrier to why people would start doing that, just as like, you know, a normal person who you just, yeah, you don't really ever want to put yourself out there in the firing line to your friendship group, yeah, because there's already enough material as it is. But then I think the really refreshing thing that happened for me is that you realise that, okay, everybody's trying to find their own way to find a career they love, like whether that's like, you know, relentlessly applying to Spring Weeks in the library to get like that consulting job, How different actually is it to, you know, they use that language on CVs and applications, putting out there and actually generating your own sort of career path? I don't see, yeah, the stigma around it anywhere near as much now. I don't know, is that something you sort of have experienced?

Yeah, I think it's getting more, more comfortable, you know. I think we spoke about this a bit off camera, like everyone's now got to try creating their own noise for themselves and give them the best opportunity to like you mentioned, find their own career path. And I think it is getting a lot more normal for people to support others just going for it, uh, definitely in the younger generation, you know, look at the Gen Z, kind of, millennial area. But we, we mentioned it as well about, you know, you've got to show your talents, you know. If you're a creative, create your portfolio, send it to as many people as you can. People think it's bragging, but at the end of the day, you've got to create your own future, create your own career, and that starts with putting yourself out there and finding the right people to attract.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that whole sort of misconception of being a creative as well, you sort of touched on that, like you have to be good at art or an actor or whatever. Like, I think I never saw myself as creative at all. My sister's actually in the audience, and like, you know, I got stuck drawing stickmen. I wasn't— I have a very artsy, like, family. But yeah, for me, I was like, well, I'm just the sort of maybe history student, you know, did okay in exams kind of guy. But then when you actually need to sort of generate that authenticity of voice online and like, you know, maybe even go against the sort of AI that's happening right now, you do need to be creative every day when you're posting. You need to wake up and think like, what's a creative hook, what's a creative picture, what all this stuff. So yeah, I mean, I guess you probably consider yourself a creative more than you started now? Yeah, I think so.

I've learned, I've learned a lot along this journey, um, and I'm becoming more creative because more of the downsides than the positives, you know. I think a lot of people are nervous about making mistakes and going wrong, but I think without them kind of downward moments, I wouldn't be where I am today because they're the, the biggest learning phases that you'll have is the ones that don't perform best. Or, you know, in your career where something goes wrong, that's the moment you can kind of change. As long as you're willing to look at the data and, you know, kind of plan around what worked, why it didn't work, and figure it out and adapt accordingly, I think you can go far in your career. Yeah, sure.

And I guess when you first, you know, finished school and you were looking for a job, you now have a very different idea of what, you know, your dream career would look like. Do you think that like Cupsy and everything you're doing there, like, is— do you see yourself as, this is my, like, baby, this is my, my project, like, that I've found I'm gonna stick with? Or is it just like you're constantly gonna feel like you're on to the next thing?

Like, so I used to be the person who jumped to the next thing all the time, but now, you know, this is my passion project. I've been at it for 2 years nearly now, and seeing where it's coming from to where it is now, you know, I just love it. I just love, like I mentioned, seeing something from nothing to something. So yeah, I definitely want to stick at this for, for a long time, but I also want to, you know, my long-term goal is to be able to help other people, and if I can kind of advise or guide people in the right direction, you know, that's, that's a win for me as well. I think a lot of people don't have that kind of person in their life that can guide them. I'm quite fortunate that my dad's run a business, my brother's run a business, so they've been able to guide me. But the people who don't actually, you know, be brought up with a family that's maybe, you know, have that privilege of being able to guide them, help them, I think that would be somewhere— some people I'd want to help and, yeah, guide them in the right direction.

I want to do a bit of a deep dive into the actual lifestyle and of being an entrepreneur, especially when it's still early stages. And again, like, the product's not out yet, but you need to sort of wake up and give yourself that motivation. Like, I had a phase from when I was a student, you know, I had set tasks to do, dissertation to submit or whatever. And then, and then like there was that gap before I started as head of events at Easy8, like where, yeah, I, I found it really liberating having that free time and being able to say yes to things that I couldn't before and let myself sort of rabbit hole. But actually, like, ensuring you got that, like, consistency and productivity from the get-go every day, I found a really manic depressive feeling. Yeah. So what are you doing in your life at the moment, like, the learnings you made from, you know, in the beginning of the process to actually, yeah, hitting that productivity every day?

So I used to be that person who had that 2-hour morning routine. It was like ice bath, run, and got to go to the gym, everything like wake up at 5:30. I used to be that guy. But now, like, speaking again, speaking to the people I've got around me who are the most successful, no one's life's like that, you know. They're focused on being productive over busy. And when I speak to the most successful people now, it's like if they're less busy one day, that's when they're going to be spending time with family, recharging, doing all that kind of stuff. But but when they are really busy, that's when they need to put, um, yeah, when they are busy, that's when they need to be the most productive and get the work that needs doing, doing. So it's kind of balancing.

You're the only one who's given yourself, yeah, that, those tasks though, do you know what I mean? That's, that's what I found it like, I think things you need to do.

Yeah, I think with Rachel as well, it's like we've got, we've got stuff to do, let's, let's do it, and You've got— if you're in it for to build a startup, you've got to have the passion to get up and motivate yourself to do it. I think no one else can do that for you except you, and it's either you're going to have the drive to do it or you're not going to have the drive to do it. And if the most successful always want to see the little checkpoints get ticked off, because you always have that end goal in sight, but then it's about chopping them down into little checkpoints that will move you forward, you know, 1% You know, if you can get 1% better each day, you're going to, you're going to get to that end goal in the end. So I think it's just about splitting them up in smaller tasks and then going for it, because you're the only one that can do it. It's a very hard question because no one else can do it for you except you.

I agree as a principle, that's the point you've got to get to. But I want to ask on behalf of the person who might be listening to this that's like, you know, maybe still in bed, like find it hard to be productive. Maybe they have a lot of ambition and they see themselves as this person that, you know, I could do that, I get stuff done, but actually like maybe going from somewhere where you're not feeling productive to the point where you can be on your own. I feel like there are stages in the middle, like you may not have the answers, but has there ever been a period that you felt you need to get yourself out of a rut?

Yeah, I think I'm quite lucky that my circle is always— they're doing the exact same as me. And I think when you see them doing it, they kind of motivate you to do it as well. You know, there is days where I just slump and I don't do anything, if I'm being totally honest to you. There has been days like that. But then, you know, you might go on Instagram and you see, you know, Izzy doing something, you're like, oh God, I need to be doing something now. And then it just pulls you out of bed and you go and do it.

Um, well, that kind of is the answer. It's like finding that circle, isn't it?

Yeah, finding that circle.

That, yeah, ultimately Yeah, you are the only one that's going to do it, but that accountability does help if you can generate it in other ways. Um, you know, even like the accountability I've given myself with this podcast now. Now I've got a team of other students. I wanted it to live beyond me, and like, and I feel like a duty to, you know, do it for, for them now as well. And I feel like, yeah, the more of those you can create for yourself the better, right?

Like, yeah, I think put yourself in uncomfortable situations. For example, for you, it could be you just hire a ton of guests or ask a ton of guests to come on, and it's like, all right, I've told them that I'm doing it now, I've got to do it. There's no way of backing down from this. And if you can do that in a business sense, you know, say that you say to yourself, promise people that you're going to do something, it's very hard for you to go back on your word if you're going to, going to do something. Put yourself in uncomfortable situations that you've just got to do it anyway.

Yeah, for sure. And I know you didn't go to university, but I feel like at uni you can join these accelerators, right, like startups, and they're great for teaching you the core basics of a business, but they're not actually gonna really compel you to go and go ahead with it and do it. Like, a lot of ideas get lost in like the ideation stage or the validation stage, and I feel like, you know, just starting on something, even if you know it's not going to be directly what the business becomes. Like, that's kind of with the podcast, it was like that for you, sort of posting on LinkedIn and different projects that like preceded this one. Now, yeah, I think there's definitely that element of, yeah, just needing to start something because I think at school, you know, for better or for worse, I know you said like academia wasn't necessarily your thing, but you have those people going, you got this score, you've done well, but you don't have those people after. Like, even at university, nobody cares, yeah, like how you do. Professors, whatever, like they give you the means to do well and it's up to you, yeah, to do that. Um, so I think having that different, like, metric of success is important. Like, what does a successful day look like for you then at the moment?

I think successful day to me is just moving forwards. I think everyone sets a successful day as in they've got to achieve you know, they've got to do 5 or 10 tasks a day and that's a successful day. But I think just getting that 1% better each day is a success to me. You know, if I can tick off the biggest task on my to-do list, that's, that's a win. And that's, you know, it's the compound effect really. If you can just keep getting 1% better over time, it's going to be the biggest reward that comes your way.

One thing I really like doing in this podcast is sort of demystifying whatever I can really in the world of careers. I think a lot of thing is, it's like, I've been noticing, you know, like quotes that you thought, oh yeah, whatever, or like they're a bit cringe, and then you start saying them yourself because you understand the context of it. Yeah. I feel like, you know, when you started, you probably might have listened to someone going like, get better 1% each day, and you're like, oh yeah, yeah, whatever. But now you are like saying it. Yeah. What do you think maybe that, that context is for being able to say that? Like to actually really go from hearing it and understanding it to genuinely believe— believing it and living it every day?

I think it's that moment where you see a shift in the results that you're seeing from, you know, like I said, a year and a half of building this, and now I'm just starting to see a big spike in kind of the people I'm meeting, the results I'm seeing. You know, it— I think a lot of people expect it to happen very quickly. And I've been guilty of it in the past, you know, you listen to it, 1% better, and you do it for like 2 weeks, you're like, why have I not seen anything? But then when you, you know, open your vision up and you look deeper, it's okay, a year later now, these effects really have been having a massive change on my life and other people's lives. And I think that's when you really realize the 1%.

And you are, you just raised investment. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about that as well, because I guess that's the thing that's really going to elevate your, your brand to the next level. And, and, you know, I guess that's what one of the shifts you're referring to is that you've done all the groundwork and things are in a really good place, but then that shift happens. The actual process of pitching to investors, what's some, like, key tips there for students listening?

Well, I can't give you any advice on that because mine's kind of a weird situation that we started working with the design and product agency back in March, and we've gone through all the process with us, and we were looking to finalize our packaging design and everything like that. And it was actually then that they offered actually there to invest in our company. Where they've been through the whole journey with us, kind of watching what Rach and I've been documenting on LinkedIn, YouTube, all the things like that. And it was actually them that came to us. So I think the advice I could give was, you know, document your journey because that gets you in the eyes of so many people that might not have seen you. So yeah, I can't really advise on that.

Yeah, no, I mean, that's, I think, in itself a really unique and Well, I think just shows a different way of going about doing it because, you know, you do hear some horror stories about, like, how again, like, quite mad depressing it can be. Just like, you could have the best CV ever and the best product and, you know, do 50 applications and just not get it, especially in this climate right now. So the ability to bring people to you is, yeah, it's a really cool one, and I think people can learn from it.

Yeah, and I think It's again like showing people what you can do, because they've known you've been at it for a year now and you haven't stopped and you haven't given up. It's not a case of, you know, we can do this. It's you're showing them that you can do it, and they really buy into that. And they, you know, they realize more about you as a person, um, because a lot of, you know, when I speak to people who have raised investment, the reason they are investing is yes, they've got a kind of a good idea and a good kind of starting point, but it's always about the founder or the person that they're buying into, you know. Qualifications aren't everything, but they look at you as a person, your attitude. Can you continue to learn? Can you adapt? You know, AI— can you start learning AI because it's getting massive? You know, so it's always about, yeah, learning as you go and showing that you're the person that they can buy into.

Yeah, I think LinkedIn is a really good way to build that reputation so that, you know, if it's not an investment, like, means reaching out to someone without having ever posted, you can have like all these experiences and you look great, but like now when someone reached out to me and whether I reply or not, it's a lot to do with like, you don't even need to necessarily put up content, it's what they're interacting with. It's like just showing that you're not bullshitting. Yeah, like, and I think that's again why the investment came about, it's like you built that reputation for yourself. And yeah, I think As we sort of near towards the end of the episode, there's a question I really like to ask every single one of my guests. And when you first started out on this journey, and that I normally ask about career, but let's use it as a specific example being your company. You would have had a certain idea of what success would be for that, and then fast forward, you know, so many things have happened. You've met people that unlock new doors, like, broaden it to different horizons. Where do you actually see the success of this reaching? What has it become from where it started?

Oh, that's a good question. So where I see Cupsy going, really, yeah, is we want to be the most luxurious coffee brand in the world. That's, that's, that's the vision we, we see as, as a brand and as a business. So yeah, and that's coffee cups, coffee stores, that's the long-term vision. So we've got a 3-phase build and we're at phase 1 at the moment, and then, you know, grow the brand and then hopefully, yeah, go global, which is the plan of the Selfridges. I love it. If they're listening.

Yeah, and I mean, I'll definitely be a user when it comes out and look forward to it.

So thanks very much for coming on, mate. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you very much. Cheers.