Nicola Gunby, Co-Founder @ CLIQ

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Nicola. Nicola, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Well, it's a pleasure to have you on, and you're the founder of Cliq, uh, and what you do is you build communities and you help people, other people build communities like nothing else. And I think a great place to start is just in your, your words, why did you start it? You reference that there's sort of a pandemic of loneliness at the moment. What does that actually mean to you, and why was it such an important problem for you to solve?

Yeah, so Click, ultimately what we are is we're a community and social networking app, and it's all about finding like-minded people. Around 3 years ago now, I moved to London. It was actually with my previous business I moved down here. But I wanted to meet people and realize how difficult it was. I was like, how can I be in a city of millions of people but not finding that kind of like true connection? And then I realized what people are wanting now, and it's they're wanting to meet people with similar interests. You don't want to go to an event and just meet anyone and kind of like waste your time and never speak to them again. You want to go and it's all about quality over quantity. I think people are realizing that more now. And now I think we had COVID, and in COVID we were so secluded, and now it's really coming back that people are realizing the power of that community. And I really wanted to tap into the interest-based side of things because it makes people feel more comfortable. So say you're feeling super lonely, you love running, you want to go to a run club, you're really scared to push yourself out of your comfort zone, you don't know anyone, but you go there, and even if you don't know what to speak to someone about, you can speak to them about running, and it opens that barrier. And that's why we're doing it interest-based and also localized. We want people to be able to meet people in their area. There's a lot of apps and platforms out there where you can meet people in Edinburgh, all these different places, what's the point if you're not gonna have that in real life connection? So we really wanted to build communities online but ultimately push them offline. And when I had the idea for Collect+, community was, it was a thing. This was like this time last year. People had started talking about it. And obviously community's always been around. But recently in the past 6 months it's absolutely boomed. And every brand, every influencer, every just everyday person wants to be part of a community now, or they want to start their own. So I just think like if we hadn't have started Clique, there wouldn't be a space for all these people. But also I would be absolutely kicking myself. Like I had this idea over a year ago and I didn't act on it, and now it's the biggest trend ever. Also, health and wellness is a massive trend at the moment. So I think people are realizing more that they want to get up on that Sunday morning and go to the run club or whatever that is and meet people that way. And I think people's perception are shifting on that, which is so interesting to see that we've hit these key trends which people are looking into now. And that's why, yeah, that's why we built Click.

And it's a, it's a big problem to take on, um, and I feel like a lot of people probably think, oh, I would love that, but it just seems too hard. Where do you even start? And I think it is, you know, fortunate for you that this isn't your first venture. And I think one thing that we like to do on this podcast is really demystify like how your whole journey, and I think people that'll be finding out about you as this founder, ex-founder who's built Click, you didn't always know what you wanted to do. You went to Birmingham University, which is not on your LinkedIn, but you dropped out. And talk me through your mindset then towards careers in general, like what you were thinking, how you were feeling.

Yeah, I think when you're in college, sixth form, whatever it is, you're very much pushed to go to uni. Well, I definitely was when I was going to uni. Maybe it's a little bit more different now, but you felt like that was kind of the only option. And I really had no idea what I wanted to do. Even when I was in sixth form, I was trying every single course. I never really did like a full 2-year course. I was doing like year-long courses because I just didn't have a clue what I was interested in. And also had that feeling of kind of like a little bit guilty because everyone around me felt like they had it all figured out and I was like, I just don't know what I want to do. Maybe in a bit of like a negative mindset of thinking like, maybe there's nothing out there for me, maybe I'm not really going to do that much. And then yeah, I applied to university because everyone else was applying, you kind of just follow what everyone else is doing. And I was like, I'm not going to get in anyway, so it doesn't really matter, that's kind of like make the decision for me. And then on results day I got in and I was like, well, I might as well try it, I might as well go. So I'm from Nottingham, went to Birmingham University, and I was the only one out of my friends that went to that area. I started a fashion course. I'm very creative, I'd say. So at school, I was always interested in like fashion, photography, English, anything that was tapping into that creative side. And this was like marketing, PR, all the really exciting things. But yeah, I think as soon as I got to university and got in those halls, I just knew deep down, gut feeling, I was like, I feel like I've made the wrong decision. I stuck it out for about 3 months I'd say, because I was like, okay, it might get better, who knows. Like, you've got to try these things. Like, the course was okay, maybe not what I expected. Also, it's your first time like moving away from home. Like, you've got to learn to do so many things on your own and be your own person. And I was quite a shy person back then. So you're like pushed into a flat with people that you don't know, you've got to get on with them. And then you've got the people on your course and you've just got to go and make friends. And I just felt like there was no one there that was kind of like on my wavelength. Everyone was very different to me, not in a bad way and not in a good way. I just didn't really find people that I clicked with. Um, so yeah, decided to quit. And I remember calling my mom and I was like, I just can't do this anymore, it's just not for me. And I think like university is not for everyone, and that's okay. And there's a lot of jobs and industries that you can go into without a degree, and entrepreneurship is one of them. Like, you're the only one running the business. So no one's going to tell you you're underqualified for this job. You don't need a CV to start your own business. You just need kind of like real world experience. And yeah, I got just like a normal receptionist job, went to live with my parents. I was like, oh my God, why have I done this? Why have I quit university? It's an exciting period, seeing all my friends going on nights out, doing all these cool things, different cities, like living the city life. And I'd gone back to like my bedroom and was like, what am I doing with my life? And I decided I wanted to go traveling, but I knew I need to save up like a bit of money for that. So I worked in that job for about 2 years, and then also alongside that I did a makeup artistry course. So that creative side of me, I wanted to kind of explore that, and I've always been interested in beauty and all these different things. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna make a course. Uh, so I was doing my 9 to 5 in the week, and I was traveling, driving up to Manchester every Saturday to this makeup course, and I absolutely loved it because I felt like I had that university experience and that freedom, but in my own kind of way. And I really like thought of being a freelancer. So for me, I was like, I want to do something on my own. I don't really know what I want to do. I don't want to start a business. I don't want to be a big scary thing. I kind of just want to dip my toes in a little bit. So I started freelancing as a makeup artist and realized soon that it's very, very hard, very difficult, especially I'm from quite a small town. So people typically don't book to get their makeup done. I think that's in mainly big cities. Things that were happening in my area were like people going to weddings and stuff like that, but I was like, I wanna be on photo shoots, I wanna be in fashion shows. So I was driving to different cities across the UK and just trying to get myself work and make a name for myself really. And during that time I was like, okay, I've managed to save enough money, waited for my partner Jason to finish university, and I was like, let's just go traveling. I need to get out of here, I need to see the world and just, I think we did like one of the most extreme things that you can do. It's kind of like you're stuck and you don't know what you're doing, so you literally fly to the other side of the world and get yourself out of it. Because I knew that if I went to maybe a different city in the UK, or if I like, I don't know, did something, I'd still be in this constant cycle of I don't really know what I'm doing. So I knew that I just needed to get away.

And before we get onto your traveling journey and, and I want your next business that you built, which was kind of born out of that problem you alluded to there, I just wanted to ask about your relationship with community in that time when you left university, where there are societies, there are things you can get involved in, and then you've gone back to your hometown. Like, what, what did you think about, you know, relationships and community at the time? And, and what was your, like, initial idea of the real problem that was existing back then?

I think when I moved back home, I was probably pretty lonely because all my friends had gone away, my boyfriend had gone away, and I felt like I took like 10 steps back and I was putting myself back in my 18-year-old self that didn't know what they were doing. So I felt very, very lonely at that point, and it was quite tough to see just like social media, all these different things of your friends going out and having the best time and joining these societies and going on these ski trips or whatever it was, and I just realized that, okay, like, I've took myself out of that, but I need to create maybe my own kind of community and start again. And just going back to— I feel like I've lost my train of thought there. Is that okay?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, no worries.

What was I thinking about saying? What was the question again? It was about—

what it was about your, like, your relationship with community at the time when you were studying, like, when you'd left university, like, how did it feel to basically be taken out of that community? Right. You know, as a student, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to feeling detached. So just your thoughts on that, really?

Yeah. So do you want me to start that whole bit again?

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, when I came back to my hometown, I probably felt quite lonely. I feel like I was watching all of my friends doing all these amazing things and being part of these societies, making new friendship groups, and I didn't have that. I only kind of had that core friendship group that I had from school, and everyone had gone away, so I was kind of on my own trying to figure things out. And I think I probably didn't really know the power of community back then. Like I said in my first intro, community's been around forever. Like, back in the day, like, our parents would go to pubs, they would go to churches, they would go to these places, they had community. And then I think we lost that sense of community. You had community through school and university. When you're in like the real world, you've got to build your own communities or find those communities. And I think for me as well, I didn't really know what I was interested in. I think I was pretty much like a little bit lost, maybe had grown up a bit sheltered, small town mentality, thinking like, I don't really know what's out there in the world. I've only ever really been in my hometown and then gone to Birmingham and come back and maybe visited a few friends in different areas. But I didn't really understand that power of having like-minded people around you, which now I'm so grateful that I've got so many like-minded people around me. But I think I've had to work hard to find those people and to actually learn about myself and learn what I'm interested in and what I want. And you are who you surround yourself with, whereas back then I don't think I really realized the power of that.

And what do you think when you went traveling that did for your, your mindset and sort of how you, how you like felt about building your passions and interests? Like, did it completely reset or change the way you thought about, yeah, building, building your actual self, your identity?

Yeah, 100%. I think, like, people say you go away to find yourself. It's very cliché, but I think you actually do, because you're away from everyone that you know, away from your family, away from your hometown. You're in a place where you don't know anything about, you know, anything about the culture. You just literally took yourself in the deep end. And like, the hardest decision that you have when you're traveling is, where am I going to eat today? Or like, what beach are we going to go to? Or where are we going to go tomorrow? And we literally booked a one-way flight and figured it out along the way because I was like, I wanted to give myself that independence of chucking myself into a situation and having to figure out the next steps, which I'd never really done. And I think that it changed me as a person because, like I said before, I was quite shy before I went traveling. But you have to speak to so many people, try things on your own, and push yourself out your comfort zone every single day whilst you're out there. That I do think it does change you as a person. And you also have so much free time to chat about things. So like, me and Jason every night would be sat on a beach on like a beanbag watching the sunset. Like, you're not watching TV, you're not really on social media, not doing all of these things. You're just sat in the moment talking about like what you want, your past experiences, all these things. And I think you start to really understand who you are. Whereas I think when you maybe finish university and you go straight into work, you're just kind of in that rat race constantly and you don't have that time time to figure things out. It's like when you go on holiday and you switch off, it takes you at least 3 to 5 days to actually forget about work and the rest of things you've got going on. And I'm not saying everyone should go traveling after university, but I think if you do have the opportunity to do something, whether it's a month, whether it's 3 months— I mean, we did 3 years in the end— it just gives you that time to figure out those next steps. Also gives that time to be selfish because you're the only person owning your own time.

Yeah, I think if not traveling, I think I've found that you can't really start building a career that you genuinely care about until you have your own sort of personal ducks in order. And I don't think, like, I didn't go traveling after university, but I definitely allowed, afforded myself the time to try different things and sort of, yes, throw things at the wall and see what stuck in, in relation to my careers and explore different things that I never even thought could be like my skill set. So You know, and if we look at, in your instance, you sort of said, I wanted to be a freelancer, but I didn't want to be a founder necessarily. You found that quite a daunting task. And I think both problems, but if we, I suppose, talk about the first one, you're solving a problem that exists around you. You put yourself in a situation and you've identified a problem that is like inherently entrepreneurial.

Yeah.

When did you realize, okay, I actually, you know, when did you accept maybe that you were your entrepreneur and start going down that path?

I think putting myself around like-minded people really helped because where I was from, I didn't really know anyone that started business. I didn't know anyone that kind of like put themselves out there in that way. It was very much the same thing where I was from, like you get a job, you get a house, you get married, you have kids, that kind of thing. And I just knew that I didn't really want that. And then I think when I was in Australia and I saw so many different types of people, so many different, like, ways of life and things that you could, how you could do things. And like, I was in a big city which I'd never been in, living, working, had our own place. It was like we finally had that freedom. And then just also started like learning a bit more like personal development. So I got really into like more reading, like more self-help books, listen to podcasts, all these things, and just opening my mind a little bit more because I think going traveling made me realize how many opportunities there are out there. And that I was so sheltered before, not realizing how many opportunities there were out there. And I think just training myself that, okay, I can do things. But it was definitely like small baby steps for me, like being a makeup artist and being a freelancer was the first thing. And I was like, okay, I'm learning how to be self-employed, do my own taxes, market myself, all of these things. So it started learning those skills myself. But then yeah, like I said, soon realized how difficult it is to be a freelancer because you're the only one marketing yourself. You've got to go out there and get work in it. Doesn't necessarily come to you. And that's where the business idea came from. Like, I was getting some really amazing jobs. Like, I worked at like Formula 1 and like Melbourne Cup and all these amazing kind of like events, and I was doing fashion shows and stuff, but I couldn't get those clients, those kind of like everyday clients, like girls going out on a weekend or like people going to weddings, things that are very much a word-of-mouth industry. And when you're a freelancer, if you don't have any bookings that day, you don't have any income. So it is a lot of pressure when you are a freelancer. And I literally came home to Jason one day and I said like, why is there not a website I put my services on and people can book me? And it sounded so simple. Jason was like, there must be something, let me go and have a look. Had a look, had a Google, was like, there's nothing, nothing out there. And he literally was like, why don't we create it ourselves? And I was like, okay, why not? Like, he's always been very entrepreneurial and wanted to do his own thing. I always had that kind of like deep down, but maybe didn't know it was in me until that point. We were like, okay, how hard can it be to build a business? Like, very, very young and naive, which I think worked massively in our favor because you knew how hard it was going to be, you probably never even start. And we just started with baby steps with that as well, and just like learning as we go. We had no business experience, didn't know how to set up a company, didn't know how to do any of these things. Just Googled everything as we went and listened to as many podcasts and watched as many documentaries and read as many books as we could, kind of, kind of figure that out. But I think it helped that we were so far away from everyone. So it's kind of like our little secret, like we had it and we didn't have anyone in our ear being like, what are you doing? Why are you trying that? No, why don't you go get a job? We were so far away from everyone and the people that we were surrounded by in Australia were quite supportive of it, which was nice. So we felt like we'd built our own mini community and we knew we were coming back to the UK because the visas are quite difficult after 2 years. And we were like, okay, perfect time to start it. We're going back to like live with our parents, no job, no nothing. We're gonna go back, everyone's gonna have this amazing life figured out. Why don't we just go and try something? So spent some of the money that we'd saved up to travel back home on like buying like MacBooks and like building a basic website, and we traveled back for, I think it was about 4 months in total, and we were like working on it whilst we were traveling. Because also we knew from the previous like traveling trip, you have so much free time, like why not fill it with something productive as opposed to just swanning around lying on the beach every day? Which, yes, is amazing. It was like, it was just so exciting to us to have this like work and like travel experience. So Jason was like learning how to code, really basically like through YouTube. I was like building the brand on like Instagram. Like, when I look at the brand, I'm like, oh my God, how did we even get to where I am now with that brand? It was shocking. But just learning everything as we went along, and it kind of really took off when we launched it. We actually launched it whilst we were sat on a beach in Sri Lanka, had like a couple too many cocktails, and we're like, should we just launch it and see what happens? And the whole concept was for freelancers. So this is before COVID All of the platforms out there, like, probably had like Treatwell and Fresha, salon-focused. They were helping salons to get bookings, but no one was helping that independent freelancer that needed the most help. Like, they're the ones that they're their own accountant, their own marketer, and everything. They're the ones that need that support system but don't have it. So it was ultimately connecting beauty professionals with consumers to get them more bookings, but then it kind of later evolved into more things like around community.

I think Big thing we like to do on this podcast as well is, is have everybody's sort of feelings and emotions towards their career heard by somebody. And I think sort of alluding to you as a digital nomad back then, I think a lot of people see people, you know, people online being a digital nomad, living this life, and, and they're sort of thinking, oh, that looks unreal, but how do you even go about doing that? And, and from the outside looking in, having never done it, I think you need to be a very certain type of person to be able to actually hold yourself accountable while living that lifestyle.

Yes.

And so, you know, if you're saying to a student that may be thinking, I could go and work in a traditional job, but it doesn't really feel like me, how would you sort of tell them to start finding out if this is something that could be for them?

I think start small. It's not that you have to go straight into it. It's not that you have to quit your job and start something straight away. I think start small if you've got the time to do it. Then why not just try a few things? Like, maybe you're interested in, I don't know, a certain type of industry. Why not get some experience in that industry to figure out if you like it? You want to start a business, why don't you start just like researching things, watching things, and like actually speaking to people that have businesses and see if it's for you? Because I think business is very glamorized. It's one of those things that you see online, people, yeah, working from their laptop in Bali and like all these amazing things. But I think people that don't have their own business don't always understand the graft that actually goes into it. The sleepless nights, the never switching off, the pressure from yourself that you put on yourself, but the external pressure from people around you. And there's so many things that go into it. Yes, it's so rewarding, but there's a lot of risks that you need to take. And I think the hardest thing you can do is start. When I look back at my whole journey of being an entrepreneur, The hardest thing that we did was that first decision of being like, okay, we're actually gonna do this. We didn't really have that much money either, and like, we'd risk some of that on a business as opposed to spending maybe like an extra month traveling. But we just knew deep down that there was a problem and an issue in the industry that needed to be solved, but also really wanted to do something ourselves. Like, we didn't want to go back and fall back into the same patterns as when we left. We kind of wanted to do something extreme to force ourselves to not go back into that situation. So I'd say like the biggest piece of advice is, yeah, just, just try it. Like, what is the worst that can happen? Like, you try something for a few months, you don't like it, it doesn't work out, or you try something and it fails. Like, what is, what is the worst that can happen?

Yeah, I think where people might go wrong with that is, is not actually having your why locked down for doing it. And I think when you say just trying things and experimenting, I think it's very hard to actually build something that you've not experienced the pain point yourself. Like, for me it's very easy for me to do the garage— obviously build a business, like you said, is not easy. But in terms of working on it and being sort of okay with the sleepless nights, everything like that, it's because you've genuinely lived that and you don't want anyone to have to go through the same experience you did. So that is the benefit of putting yourself out there, right? And really just seeing what happens and trying things. Um, I think moving on to the actual, like, building of the business. Um, you obviously, you're— for Click at least, you're the chief marketing officer, so more marketing inclined perhaps than your other— your partner. Um, how did you realize that you were a marketer? Because it's not anything that you've referenced there in your career path. It's, you know, none of your interests lied in that. So was it like, okay, to get us off the ground, I need to do it? Or you— there were things that you identified yourself before? Oh, I could do this.

I think it's definitely that creative side of me. Like, I do love every aspect of business, but I'm not shy to say that I'm not the best at everything. Like, the thought of sitting down and like doing our accounts like fills me with dread and I put it off for like 2 weeks. But to do something creative, I'm like, yes, straight away. I've just always had that creativity in me. And with the first business, like I said, we had no business experience, didn't have a clue what I was doing, was just figuring out and was trying a little bit of everything. So when you are a founder, you do typically wear all of the hats, especially if you're a solo founder. You wear all of the hats. Lucky that I had Jason to kind of split that workload with and split those skills with. But I think in the first business, neither of us really knew what our skill set was, and we'd be doing every single pretty much meeting together. Like, I'd be on all the tech calls and I'd be thinking, what the hell is everyone talking about? I know nothing about tech, nor am I really interested in it. And he would be on kind of like anything marketing-wise and and we just realized that one, we were wasting so much time overseeing everything, but two, that we have such different skill sets and strengths, and why not play to them? So with Click, yeah, I've taken more of the role of the marketing, the partnerships, the social media, the community side of things, which I love and I'm so passionate about. And even though I've had like no marketing experience, I don't have a degree in marketing, I've never had a marketing role, I think the best thing you could do is chuck yourself into something. And like I said, just try something. Like, the branding of the previous business was absolutely shocking. The branding of ClickNow is so much better because I've learned and I've had those years of experience of trying different things and figuring things out and seeing what goes well together and how to do things. I've been so much more equipped with running the marketing for Click, but it only comes with experience and time and learning. But you've got to be willing to put that time in and willing to learn and willing to fail as well. There'll be so many things like I probably look back on and be like, oh my God, I was so embarrassed that we put that out. But at the time I thought it was the best thing ever. So you've got to be willing to learn from those moments and look back and be like, okay, like, look how far we've came. But yeah, I think it all comes from experience. And actually, like you said, having a business that solves a problem that you've been accustomed to is where the best business happen. And with the first one, it was, yes, I was a beauty professional struggling to get work, but I was also a woman living in a city where I didn't know no one. I need to get my hair done, I need to do all these things. Like, where do you go? How do you find people to go to? So I came from both sides with that. And then with Click, moving to London and wanting to meet people and realizing how hard it was and going through those situations myself, you can build such a better business because you've gone through it, as opposed to being like, oh, I've got this idea, I think this will work really well, but you've never even been in that kind of situation.

I think with marketing, obviously it's, uh, a lot of it nowadays is on social media, right? And in an interview of yours that I read, you were saying that a big reason you do cook is that you could have as many views or as followers as you want on social media, but at the end of the day, that doesn't mean you have your people around you. And I wonder how you, how you actually balance growing your brand through social media and like the sort of manic-depressive nature that can come with, you know, ultimately your business is dependent on it doing well socially. But then also, like, I guess, does having that community around you anchor yourself? Um, does it, does it really help you balance, like, your job and trying to build a social media with wanting that in, in real life connection?

Yeah, I do sometimes feel like, are we frauds for, like, trying to get people out from behind the phone but building an app that keeps people on their phone? And the whole concept of Click is, yeah, trying to get people to realize how much time they're actually spending on social media, how many hours of the day they're actually wasting, why they sat behind a screen, why are we comparing ourselves to everyone we see, why do we follow all these influencers where we don't know them. Like, we're in a society now where you feel like you know the people that you follow. So you could follow 2,000 people, let's say, you feel like you know them, but you actually don't. And it's like when you see someone, you're like, oh, how was your holiday? And they've never even told you that they've been on holiday, but you've seen their stories, so you know. And it's like we have such this wide lens of what everyone around us is doing. But at the end of the day, is that actually fulfilling us? Do we actually really care what people are doing? But we're so caught up in this system and society, and it's just an addiction to our phones. Whereas with Click, we're very, yeah, community focused. So we're all about how do we provide in real life experience to people that are going to push themselves out their comfort zone. And with the app we are building features that are so community-focused. So like when you download the app, you find what communities you're interested in, then we have group chats. In those group chats, people are getting to know each other and just having conversations. And then you know that when that community puts on an event, you're gonna feel so much more comfortable to go to it because you've bridged that gap of that awkward first meet of turning up to an event and being like, "I don't know anyone," because you've met people online before. With events, every single event has its own group chat. You can see who's going. And we're just creating a really kind of like, community-focused platform in everything that we do. And with our marketing, we really want that show. We really want to be an inspirational platform of someone looking at our social media and we've got like a real story of someone that has never been to an event on their own before, but they've showcased going to that event and how many amazing things happen and how they walked away with 5 new connections that they're going to meet up for with coffee next week and is showing those real-life experiences so people can look at it and be inspired and be like, okay, 'If they can do it, I can do it too.' And that's what we're trying to do through our marketing now, is we're all about the community and the individual. Like, yes, we're an app, but we're trying to portray a feeling, a feeling of how you feel when you've gone to that amazing run club and you feel great after it. We've also met new people, as opposed to showing all the different app features and this is what we do and making it really techy. Yes, we are a tech platform, but we're all about the inspiration, and how do we actually connect people and make people have an amazing experience, but then ultimately come back to CLEC to have that experience.

Yeah, I think I want to look at through the lens of a student going to these events because, you know, at The Graduate we put on these networking events, and as much as we try and foster and cultivate this very welcoming and different sort of environment for people to network and meet each other, I think ultimately I'm interested, um, actually something you said earlier about your approach towards business being sort of youthfully naive and sort of blissfully unaware. I think in my opinion that's actually an unknown superpower when they're young, to actually go into conversation and events and really embrace their like natural curiosity and their line of questioning and that authenticity that comes with that. So, you know, obviously you, you're, you have all these events hosted If you are a young person that's just moved on, there would be that for university or work, how would you encourage them to actually approach these events and take the most out of it? Because even if it's not for work, you never know when a, you know, a connection will become valuable for your— for building your career as well, right?

Yeah, 100%. I think when I first moved here, I was like, right, I want to meet people. And then you go on your phone and you download all these apps and you're like, what do I even do? Where do I even go? I was like Bumble BFF, or these very much like friendship apps where you're swiping through people based on how they look, and then it's that one-on-one connection. It's like, hey, how are you? Do you want to go for a coffee? And then the next minute you're going for a coffee with a complete stranger you know nothing about, and you're thinking, what if I don't get on with this person? Which is why we wanted to lean down the community things and making people feel more comfortable. I'd say my advice is to go for something first that you know you're super interested in. So like for me, when I look back, I kind of didn't really know what I was interested in at that age, but I knew that maybe, okay, I was interested in going to the gym. So maybe if I was joining a community, it would be a fitness-based community. Then you see what happens from there. And what's really cool with Clique is that the community kind of drives the users for us. So we have, say, like a run club join, they bring their users with them, and then them users actually realize, oh, I want to build my own community. So they go ahead and start a book club or something, and we get that kind of feedback effects from our user base. So I think just starting with something that you know you're interested in and then seeing kind of where it goes. That is so difficult to push yourself out of your comfort zone, especially when you don't know anyone. But I think once you've done it once, it gets so much easier those times afterwards. It's always going to be the first one that's so daunting. And like with your networking events, I bet you have people that kind of like stand in the side or they're in the toilets for like 10 minutes, and I've done it before. When I first moved to London, I was going to every single networking event that I could find that was for like females or female founders. Some of them are amazing, some of them were like an absolute waste of time. It was like so corporate, so just like not fun at all, having conversations with people that I was like, I really don't even want to be here. So I think like going to ones that you know you're going to have fun at, at the same time, and just going in with an open mind. Like when you go to a networking event, or even when you go to like a run club or a book club or whatever it is, so many people there that are actually on their own. And even though they look like they're talking to someone, they probably literally just met 5 minutes ago. So I think knowing that everyone's in the same position as you makes it so much easier, because it's not like you're going to go up somewhere, a networking event, and they go like, sorry, I don't want to talk to you. Everyone's open to it because everyone's there for the same reason. I think having that mindset really helps.

And I like the meaning in your name, where obviously in some degree it's that, that click with another person, like in-person interaction. But then the other, the other side of it is actually destigmatizing the cliquiness that can come with events sometimes. And when I put on events, it is frustrating to see sometimes that you either have someone coming by themselves feeling like, yeah, it's difficult to interact, or you have people coming in a big group that don't let anyone else in. So I think, is, is that a solvable problem when it comes to events? Like, I mean Obviously, I think that you have to sort of, you know, things like run clubs and everything where it's a bit more dynamic, it's easier to break up. But with these more traditional networking career events where people are just inherently scared to go by themselves, or if they do, like I said, it's difficult. Is there any way that can be solved from your experience building?

I think the features that we've got on Collect massively help that. So even just being able to see who's going to an event, because like, for example, say you buy a ticket on a ticketing platform you don't have any idea about any of this event. You've literally bought a ticket and then you're waiting around to turn up. People get so nervous, like, who's going to be there? How many tickets have been sold? Like, you could literally be the only person walking in that room. You don't even know who's the organizer. All of these things you don't have any visibility on, whereas with Clikki you can see the whole picture. So you can see how many tickets been sold, see exactly who's going, and you can see faces and pictures and names, and like, you can see their profile, what they're interested in. So when you're going to an event, you know, okay, actually these people look really nice, they don't look scary, they look similar to me. And then having that chat functionality, like what we find with a lot of events in London, people are chatting beforehand and they're like, oh, where's everyone coming from? And someone like, oh, I'm coming from Shoreditch. I'll be like, oh, me too, let's get the tube together. And people are making friends before they go, which ultimately makes them feel more comfortable to turn up. And you know what it's like, like you've had that conversation online beforehand. One, you do feel more comfortable. Two, you also feel accountable because people expect you to be there. So then if on the day you're super nervous and you don't turn up, you've got all these people that know you are coming. So I think having those features on Click has made a massive difference, and we've noticed that the dropout rate for events is so much lower than on other ticketing platforms. Like, I do it all the time, sign up for events on these ticketing platforms, you forget about it, you get that reminder in the morning, you're like, oh, I'm so busy, I can't be bothered to go, or even feel a bit nervous, maybe not feeling great today. But if you knew exactly who was going to be there and maybe you're like, oh, I've seen that person before, oh, I know her, oh, I really want to get to know her, whatever it is, then you're more likely to go. So building these features that make people feel so much more comfortable to go to events is like what we're all about at Click.

I love it. And when I look at your career journey from the beginning where, you know, you didn't know what you wanted to do, I think, like I said, I think a lot of people from the outside looking in would, would sort of put you on this pedestal of like, oh, it looks like you've just always had success, and the first business you found, it went really well, and, and everything like that. But that's not always been your feeling. And, and I think I want to hear from you, if you can sort of cast your mind back to when you were feeling, um, you know, lost and not optimistic about your career going forward. And thinking about the other people that might be feeling like that listening to this, what would you say to them to say, like, okay, yeah, there will be difficulties, there will be bits where you're scared, but actually say no, you should be excited for your career. Like, it is a really exciting thing to think about how you can find your reason for living and working.

Yeah, I think like realizing that no one actually even still has it figured out. Like, I probably don't have it figured out now. I bet you have things that you haven't felt like you figured out. But people actually don't have it all figured out, even though you put these people on this pedestal. And like, I do it, like I look at influencers or like female founders that are doing like amazing things that have raised loads of money and all this stuff. I'm like, wow, like I'm so small compared to them. And it's that comparison. And I think the worst thing you can do is compare yourself to others and you've got to put yourself on your own path. I get it all the time now. People are like, oh my God, you're smashing it, you're killing it, like you're doing podcasts or events, you're doing all these things. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I show you on social media, whereas like 90% of the time I'm sat behind my laptop like probably haven't even brushed my teeth, it's midday because I just don't have the time and I'm like stressing about something. Whereas people just see that kind of like glamour side of it, and I think that just knowing that there's so much time ahead of you and you don't have to have it all figured out in your early 20s. When we started the first business, I think I was 23, 24, but literally had no idea what I was doing. I felt like such an imposter all of the time. And I went to a talk recently and they were talking about the reason you have imposter syndrome, and the reason you have your imposter syndrome is because you've never done something before. So it's like, you could have imposter syndrome coming on a podcast, but if you've never been on a podcast before, of course you're going to have imposter syndrome. So I think you need to put yourself in situations that make you better and scare you a little bit, because that's the only way you're going to learn to take those risks. Um, but yeah, just learning that everyone's still figuring out as they go. And there's some mornings I wake up and I'm like, I do not know how to do this. I don't know how to reply to this email. I don't know how to have this meeting, especially with like the investment landscape. That was a whole other ball game of— I didn't come from a school where they talked about investment or they talked about anything like that. I didn't know anyone that had a business or had been through the investment journey. I was living in Nottingham where I was so far away from London where typically all the investors are and the events, and had to build that network up from nothing and learn everything. And I'm still not an expert on investment, even though I've raised investment. So just knowing that you don't need to be an expert in everything is super helpful as well.

Actually, let's, let's talk about that a little bit, that— because one of the posts that went really viral that you did was about, you know, female founders and how difficult it is for them to raise, and the really sort of damning percentages of, you know, female versus male investors. When you put that post out, it was somewhat of a call for help. Um, what was the response and how did it change your mindset and attitude towards, you know, what might be happening going forward and, you know, giving hope and optimism to current, you know, female founders that are just starting out?

Yeah, when I did that post, yeah, it was very much like, LinkedIn, I need your help. And that was coming from like my marketing mindset of like, to make a post go viral, which I didn't even expect on LinkedIn, is to either be like asking for something or have that like catchy hook. But the post was so important and something that a lot of people are speaking about at the moment, and it is that, yeah, female-founded businesses don't get the same opportunities as male-founded businesses. I think it's like less than 2% of venture capital actually goes to female-founded businesses, which is absolutely crazy because there's so many females out there doing absolutely amazing things. They just don't get the recognition because we're not typically in these rooms where white men in suits are that have all of the money and are very stuck in their ways and don't really understand what it's like to be a young female trying to make something of yourself and running a business. So there's so many kind of like stats on that which I integrated into the post, and I didn't expect for it to kind of take off as it did. But I think it's one of those things that people want to support people and people want to make a change. And it was surprising how many men commented on it and was like recommending for different founders for me to speak to speak to different investors, trying to give advice, all these different things. It was amazing and also gave so many other people, like you said, like hope that, okay, there is people out there that will help you, you've just got to go out there and find them. And I think like I've learned to push myself out of my comfort zone with stuff like that. I think with the first business, if you told me to write a post on that I'm actually looking for female investors and I need people to recommend female investors to me, I'd be like, no, that seems so desperate. But it's just reframing your mindset of, no, you've actually got to put yourself out there for people to find you. Like, how can you expect people to invest in your business if they don't know who you are? And that's that whole personal brand side of things as well, which I'm starting to kind of like work on. I've realized how important it is, and like, just knowing that that little bit of time that I do spend building my personal brand will actually help me so much, whether it's getting users for the app because it's relatable, whether it's bringing communities on board because they know me, whether it's getting investors on board because they understand my story. Just because putting yourself in front of your business, I think, can do so much. So I think to like young people that are wanting to put themselves out there, just try it. Like, what's the worst that can happen? You create a post and it flops and no one likes it. It happens all the time. Like, I had so many views on that post and I did one yesterday, didn't really get that much. It just happens. It's just an algorithm. But you don't know until you try. You don't know who's going to see it. And I think LinkedIn's such a great tool for that because if someone comments, it goes to their whole network as well. Whereas on Instagram, it's— or TikTok or whatever, it's a lot harder because it's so segregated. Whereas on LinkedIn, you can reach such a wide audience, and I think the audience of people on LinkedIn are people that genuinely want to help and want to network themselves. So just push yourself out there a little bit.

Yeah, I think my, my co-founder, it's Marlene, she actually wrote her, um, her dissertation that she just finished on the lack of funding in female getting female entrepreneurs. And I think she would have really loved that message. We were actually having a conversation yesterday about— honestly, I think what we're building, at least, like, I don't know how I could be building what I'm doing without her sort of female brain and attitude towards entrepreneurship. And it kind of blows my mind that there are some things, some companies, industries that would really benefit from the sort of diversity of thought towards it. So No, I mean, I really love the message and appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it. So, and my final question to you, which I, I ask every single one of my guests, which is when you first started off your career journey, you might have had a certain idea of what a successful career would go on to look like, but fast forward with everything you've learned and experienced in your career, what is your definition of success in a career and how has it changed?

I think my definition of success now is happiness. I feel like when I was younger, I would think success is money, flashy lifestyles, all these things where, yeah, it's amazing to be able to have these things, but ultimately, if you're not happy, then what's the point? And I think just being successful in that way isn't enough. Like, I think we're all realizing now that we want to do things that do good in the world, that fill our cup, that make us feel amazing. And whether that is like you've got a full-time job but you've got like a side hustle and it's your passion project, your hobby, and like maybe you're building a community, maybe you're a content creator, whatever that is, and that fills your cup. I don't think we need to have a pressure that every single thing that we do in our life needs to be successful. And I think it's that whole comparison thing that we've spoke about quite a lot. Like, your chapter 1 could be someone else's chapter 10, and learning not to look at that, which can be so difficult with social media. I think you've got to look at what ultimately makes you happy what you want to be doing in your life, what you want to portray in the world, what you want to make a name for yourself as. And most of the time it's not for having X amount of money, it's for making a change in this industry, or it's for inspiring people, encouraging people to put themselves out of their comfort zone. Whatever it is, making a difference is ultimately what a lot of us are striving for. And then obviously the money comes secondary to that. And it's actually funny, when me and Jason, in between our businesses, we went to Bali, didn't know what we wanted to do. We're like, switch our phones off for a little bit and just like, just figure it out. And we went to see like a shaman, and he basically like projected like our future and our energy and all of these things. And he was saying to us, you two are so conflicted between what you want and you're pushing for success. It's like, if you find out what makes you happy and what your passion is, then success will follow. And I've remembered that forever, because before that I was like, you need to have the best of this, you need to have the the best house, all of these things. Ultimately, you're just in that rat race of just trying to get the best things constantly. Whereas if you focus on what you're passionate about and what you're happy about, then that success will come ultimately.

Nicola, thanks so much for coming on. You've been great.

Thank you so much for having me.