Peter Jackson, CEO @ Hill Dickinson's

Welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today we have an amazing episode for you. So I'm joined by Peter Jackson, CEO of Hill Dickinson. Peter, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Yeah, my name is Peter Jackson, I'm the CEO of Hill Dickinson. We're an international law firm, headquarters in Liverpool, but in the UK we are in London, Manchester, Leeds, New Newcastle, just gone into Birmingham. And then overseas, we are in Greece, Piraeus, Hong Kong, Singapore, Monaco. We have about 1,000 people around the world and 160 partners in the business. We're a partnership, limited liability partnership, and we do a full suite of commercial law with particular emphasis on transportation, shipping, And we're also, we do a lot of work in the healthcare sector as well, but we're sector agnostic, we'll work anywhere.

Amazing, no, thank you so much for joining us today. Could you first walk us through what a typical day in the life looks like for a CEO? I know that we spoke a bit before this and it can vary massively, but what would an average day look like?

Well, there's no average day, is the first thing to say. You never know what the next phone call is, you never know what the next email is going to be, and with 1,000 people People get things wrong and do silly things from time to time, and that's, you know, just going to happen. I suppose if I say that my particular responsibilities are really in 4 categories. So I'm responsible for the strategy of the business, devising it and then implementing what we as a business want to do. I'm also responsible for managing our partners, our top talent, our senior people, That falls at my door ultimately. I keep a relationship with a number of our major clients. I'm not hands-on in that relationship, I don't deliver legal services, but I have an umbrella view and deal with some of the senior people. And then events, the things that come from left field that we never anticipate usually end up on my screen or my desk, and that's you know, that's what a CEO does, isn't it? You're the firefighter at the end of the day. So pretty much everything I do will fall into one of those categories. The actual day can be a mix of meetings, a lot of communicating. I meet a lot of people, I talk to a lot of people. That can be people internally, externally, clients, suppliers, intermediaries, whatever it might be. So a lot of talking, a lot of communication, a lot of emails. Yeah, I mean, it's the, you know, it's the medium of choice for the professions these days, and that's inevitable. I tend to get copied in on everything.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Which is just, well, it's just the way it is.

Yeah.

So it's very varied, and that's part of the joy actually, that you never quite know what tomorrow brings.

I was going to actually ask that. I think part of what I enjoy so much about working at an earlier stage startup is that variation from day to day and the fact that you work on completely different stuff. So when you were saying that, I could completely resonate and was going to actually ask, is that what makes it amazing, essentially.

It is what makes it— well, I think there's two things that make it amazing. First of all is the diversity, the variety of what happens, and whilst, you know, the next email could be challenging, there's a challenge in it that I find exciting. So even things that are, you know, difficult, I find engaging. The second thing that makes it brilliant is the people. You know, I work with some fantastic people in my team and in our business generally. And it's a truism, it's an old saying, it's a bit twee, but we are a people business. Without our people, we're nothing. You know, it's the people that deliver legal services, it's the people that develop relationships with clients, it's the people who are our public face. And without them, we're nothing. And, you know, we have to accept it's all about people. And getting the best out of them, bringing them on, developing them, and that, that's great, you know, I really enjoy that.

No, it sounds like you do as well, you speak with a lot of passion about that. I mean, in terms of what you mentioned about often you're spending a lot of your day communicating, over your experience so far as a CEO but also throughout your whole career, you must have learned a lot about what it takes to be a good communicator. Are there any pointers that you would give to students now or younger people listening today about how to be a better communicator, how to be a more effective communicator?

Um, yes, um, choose your medium first. We've got 1,000 people, I can't talk to all of them every day, and we've got thousands of clients, I can't talk to all of them. Um, email is not a very good medium, but sometimes it's inevitable, and if you've got to get a message across to a mass audience, you have to use written, um, a written medium of some description, email, uh, or whatever it might be. But I think that you have to recognize that when anything is serious, when anything really matters, face-to-face is essential. Yeah. And by face-to-face, I mean ideally face-to-face as we are now in the same room, you know, in the arena together.

Yeah.

Yes, video communication has become the norm, certainly in professions these days and teams and FaceTime and such, you know, became the norm during the pandemic. Pandemic. It's a substitute, and on certain occasions it's a very useful, efficient, cost-effective substitute. But when you're really getting down to the business end of an issue, or a difficult personal issue with an individual, with people face to face in the same room, sitting opposite each other, next to each other, whatever it might be, there is absolutely no substitute for that. And I think that's the best way to communicate.

Yeah.

Another thing I would say, and I say this to all of my partners, if you get to a leadership position in any organisation, whether it's a, you know, startup like yourselves, an established large business like us, body language is really, really important. Because if you're in that position of leadership, you're a role model. People want to be like you. People want to be, they want your job. They want to behave like you behave. And they will look at you, and if you behave in a certain way, they'll behave that way. Because why wouldn't they? They want to do what you do. So you have to be very, very careful about how you let your body language display things that you might not want to display. Let me give you an example. We've got a great guy who's on our reception in Liverpool. Top bloke, been there for years and I know him very, very well. But our conversation generally tends to be pretty shallow, although we get on fine. You know, how are you, Richard? I'm fine. How are you, Pete? I'm fine. When's your next holiday? The weather's cold. It's that sort of relationship. We get on great and we've done that for 15 years.

Yeah.

So, you know, imagine the situation. I went to Anfield the night before and we lost 3-0 to Atalanta and You know, the European campaign looks like it's over and it's raining and the car won't start and the buses and whatever. I'm having a really dreadful day. And instead of, 'Morning, Richard, how are you?' I just walk past him. You know, I've got a face like thunder and I grimace and whatever. Person coming in behind me sees Richard, 'cause she's been here for 15 years as well, and they say the same thing. And Richard says, 'Blummin' heck, what's up with Jaco?' 'He's in a terrible state this morning.' She goes up to the fourth floor, has a word with her mates, and we're going, 'Bust it must be,' because— and by lunchtime we've got a rumor around the building that the business is in trouble, all because of me having a bad morning and not remembering I'm a role model. Yeah, you know, I don't need to mislead people, but there is a, there is a way you behave, you, where you act, uh, the way you communicate, back to your point, as a leader, and you've got to be conscious of that. So take it seriously, I suppose I'm saying, in all its forms.

I guess that must be quite hard though, to be able to kind of completely— not, I guess, block out, but be able to almost put on a— because even though that situation doesn't include that, if there was times where the business is struggling, you almost still have to put on a brave face, don't you? And kind of not allow that to come across to the rest of the employees. How do you do that?

Experience. Yeah, you, you— first of all, recognizing it, you know, um, having conversations like this where I pass that on hopefully to another generation of future leaders. To take it seriously, that comes with experience. Recognising, my chairman always says this, he's a corporate lawyer, you're always on stage. Once you get to a certain position in your career, stage of your career, you're on stage, everyone's looking at you. Whether it's me leading a business or him managing clients, you know, if a deal's going wrong that he's acting for a client on, the last thing the client wants is him going, oh my God, what are we going to do?

Yeah.

You've got to be calm, you've got to be collected, you've got to manage the situation. So it's the same really whether you're leading a business or whether you're leading a client relationship or whatever it might be. Comes with experience, but the first step is to realize it matters. Yeah. And to take it seriously. And if you can do that, then you're conscious of it, and then you can not, as you say, not push things out of the way, but put them into the background for a while.

Yeah. Know when the time is.

Know when the time is, right. Express those emotions. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

I think that's really great advice for students listening. In terms of your journey then, obviously reaching the point of CEO, what does that journey look like? How did you kind of make it from when you first started, whether that be graduating or whatever, to then reaching a point where you're actually CEO of this company?

Yep, so going back a long time, I was at school in Liverpool in the '70s, Catholic grammar school. No idea what I wanted to do with my English and History A-levels. I didn't want to be a teacher, I knew that. No offence to teachers, but it wasn't for me. And a very good friend of mine was studying law at the time at university, and I spoke to him about it, and it struck me that was a discipline that I might enjoy, that I would find interesting, challenging. And so I applied and was lucky enough to be accepted to Oxford to do read law. Genuinely did enjoy it, found it interesting. Even at that stage, didn't have a clue what I was going to do, but it was made pretty clear very early on actually in the course that, you know, you had to apply for a job and sort of make something out of this. Going back then, 40-odd years, there weren't quite the options available for law students as there are now. It was pretty much solicitor, barrister, or into industry, and I chose the solicitor in private practice route. I didn't think I was quick enough on my feet to be a barrister. And ended up going to the College of Law, which was the only way into the profession in those days. That's changed now beyond recognition, but it was the only way in then. And got what we called articles of clerkship in those days at Hill Dickinson Co. and started in 1983. Wow. Yeah, I know. And I'm something of a dinosaur in two senses there. Yeah, I've been around a long time, which is fine, but also I'm a one firm man, I'm a one club man and I think that is probably a thing of the past. Workforce these day and ages are much more mobile. Yeah. So I don't think you'll see many with sort of my career progression going forward. I was a lawyer by profession, practiced for 20 years after I qualified. I was a shipping lawyer primarily. And then by about the early 2000s, I was gradually becoming to realise that perhaps being a lawyer and practising wasn't really what I wanted to do for the next 20 years. I'd reached the stage where I was thinking, is there something else? And my mentor, a chap who I'd worked for when I was an article clerk, was our managing partner at the time, and I'd you know, was very close to him, saw a lot of what he did, and the idea of going into management I found attractive. I thought that's something I would like, something I could do, and so I, you know, let it be known within the partnership that was something I wanted, and thankfully I was elected to be Managing Partner first, and then we changed the role slightly in 2016 to become CEO, although the principal sort of tenets of the role are the same. And I've done it now for nearly 19 years. Amazing. Yeah, it's— I've enjoyed it. Yeah. I would say advice to all your readers, listeners, followers: never trust anyone who said he's enjoyed every minute, because things do go wrong.

There must be hard times.

And there are hard times. And you're in a people business and you get close to people and things happen, and, you know, that's not nice at times.

Yeah.

Um, but, but the vast, vast majority, 90 or whatever percent of the time, I, I've really enjoyed what I do. As I said, you know, I work with some great people. I work with some great people now, and, um, and that's been, been a joy. I've been very lucky in that sense. So that was the journey so far.

Amazing. Yeah, great journey. In terms of what you mentioned about being kind of a one-firm man.

Yeah.

I know that, and I definitely agree with what you said about that maybe being a thing of the past. Yeah, but I still think maybe there's some insight you may have for students listening when they're thinking about what company they want to commit their early years of their career to, about how to pick the right company. Is there anything that kind of stood out to you and stands out to you now at Hill Dickinson that makes you certain that you— that's a company you want to work for? And maybe something that students can kind of keep in mind when they're, I guess, looking through their different options when they're applying.

Yeah, well, I suppose if I look at Hill Dickinson And what I would say, and what indeed I think it's fair our graduates say, because we do get put forward for graduate awards, trainee awards, and what have you, pick a culture that works for you. Now, there's no such thing as good or bad culture. You know, it's what's right for the individual. Something that you and I might find absolutely awful to work in, others would say, "That works for me," and they thrive in it, and vice versa. So work out if you can in your own mind, what are you looking for? Are you looking for a culture that we would say is Hill Dickinson's and, you know, it's very transparent, it's very supportive, it's collaborative, collegiate in the positive sense of being collegiate, where, you know, we believe we can give pretty diverse training in terms of the disciplines you would find, And we take training seriously, so we realise we're a legacy business, you know, we recruit trainees to retain them, we recruit graduates to retain them. We believe they're the partners of, you know, 20 years' time, or whatever it might be. If that's the sort of thing you're looking for, then Hilldicks would be for you. If it's not, don't come near us with a bargepole. Why? You know, it's not what you want. If you've got a particular bent in life, So, for example, if I use us again, you know, if you find shipping law absolutely fascinating, well, get out more first. But having made that point, which is obvious, then there are a number of firms that do that. If that is really something that is going to turn you on professionally, don't go to a firm that doesn't do it. Do your due diligence, do your homework, find out more. When I started 40-odd years ago, the ability to actually find out what happened in firms, what didn't exist, you know, the internet was, you know, infantile, it didn't happen. Graduates these days have got a wealth of information at their fingertips, literally. Make sure you're doing your due diligence first. Make sure the culture's what you want it to be, whatever that might be, but what you want it to be. Yeah. And pick and choose carefully. I think don't rush into anything. You can, you know, if you're not going to enjoy it, you're not going to last.

Yeah, no, I really love the point you made about kind of there not being a good or bad culture and actually just finding the culture that works for you. I have this, this debate very often with people, for example, like I said, I work in a startup with people that work in corporates, and sometimes I have been guilty of telling them, oh, that culture sounds way too slow, and that's not, that's not what I would enjoy.

Yeah, yeah.

But they're not realizing maybe for them that's actually exactly what they want, if they want that kind of slower pace versus maybe what I would like. So yeah, I think that's really amazing, amazing advice for our listeners. Moving on from that slightly, in terms of during your journey, you also studied at Harvard Business School, am I correct?

I did. It was only for 10 days, let's not get carried away. But it was what they do, of course, they still do it actually, called Leading Professional Service Firms. And it was recommended to me that I go, because when I started as managing partner, there was very little learning available for people going into the role, certainly at our level of firm then. But I was persuaded this would be a good thing to do, and fortunately the firm backed me to do it, and I went off and studied for 10 days at Harvard. It was absolutely fascinating. Yeah, you were being taught by some pretty clever people, as you would anticipate, but people who had done roles in professional service firms. This wasn't academia. This was hands-on practical advice. And also the— and I'd never encountered this before, naively or not, but I hadn't. It was case study orientated and it was firms that we knew. You know, you could really see proper issues, proper challenges being dealt with in law firms, accountancy practices, whatever it might be, recruitment agencies that we all knew. And they were written by the people who were in, or with the collaboration of the people who were involved in the issues. So it really was practical.

Yeah.

And I suppose it taught me a number of things. First of all, that my sort of gut feel of going into management would be something I would enjoy was right, because I found this absolutely fascinating. And whilst I learned a lot of new terminology and perhaps wouldn't have identified the issue or called the issues that we saw what the law school, what the business school called them, we'd identified that they were issues. So whilst, you know, I might have naively been thinking, I don't know what I'm doing here as a managing partner, actually we'd got somewhere, we just didn't recognise them in quite the way that Harvard might. Yeah. And we might not have had the same solutions or potential solutions that Harvard was able to point us to. So it was really, really helpful from that sense. It was also comforting to know that if I was describing myself as not really knowing what I was doing at that stage in my career, there were lots of people in the room who were in my shoes, you know. And again, that was comforting because I'm not a manager by trade, I'm a lawyer. I've ended up managing because that's what really happens in law firms and many professional service firms, not just law firms. But of course the training for it is, well, when I did it, non-existent. Even today it can only get you so far because you've got to learn on the job Yeah, I think that's some—

there's some really kind of useful underlying advice there for students. I think right now in terms of the workplace, it's very, very fast-changing. There's a lot of skills that you're forced to learn on the job, like you said. Would you say then that what you've learned from that experience is that the way to learn those skills is through practical advice, not just reading textbooks, for example, but by actually applying what you need to apply and learning in a more practical way?

Yeah, I think there's, there's two 2 things I'd say to that, Charlie. Yes, I think there's no substitute for being in the thick of battle and having to work out how to fire the gun, definitely. But secondly, what I've found is this: they say that the leader's role is lonely and, you know, it's the loneliest job in the world because at 3 o'clock in the morning it's only you and there's only you who's going to make the decision. I think that's rubbish, I really, really do. Yes, at 3 o'clock in the morning it is you, but the trick I think is not only to learn on the job but surround yourself both internally and in your external network with people who know their jobs far, far better than I'm ever going to. Yeah. So, you know, my HR Director, for example, my Finance Director, they are far, far better at what they do than I will ever be. My job, I think, is to empower them, to let them manage, to develop them, to take advice and counsel from them, to mentor them, but ultimately to realise that they know what they're doing. And in some areas I don't, and I'm never going to. But if you surround yourself with enough people like that, you're getting good counsel and you're learning as you go along. And that's the same externally as well. I mean, I was taught a lesson very early on as a managing partner that Although we are competitors, other law firms talk to each other, and, you know, managing partners will get together and say, have you ever done that? No. Why? Because I, you know, I need, I need an answer to something. I don't know what it is. And, and within reason, because we've all got proprietorial issues that we've got to protect, as long as we don't go over the line, people will help. You know, that's, that's, um, that, that comes actually naturally. I didn't realize it did, but it does. And I've found, but talking to other CEOs, managing partners in law firms that are competitors of ours, you know, we compete for clients, we compete for people. Actually, we're very generous with our time. You have to, it's got to be give and take, you know, you can't just go and take in that rich relationship. But if you are prepared to give and you're prepared to help and counsel others, then you find that you get it back. And that again is a great source of learning because it's, you know, there's nothing new. Yeah. Pretty much every problem, it might be packaged differently and it might arise in a different set or different context or set of circumstances, Every problem pretty much has been seen by somebody previously, and if you can find somebody either in your own organisation or amongst your network who's had it before, then don't reinvent the wheel.

Yeah, gives you almost like a leg up.

You might need a bigger wheel or a smaller wheel, and you can, you know, change the wheel necessarily, but don't reinvent it. Yeah, it gives you a start if nothing else. So yeah, learn on the job, but surround yourself with people who are better than you are, and that will take you a long way.

Yeah, no, I think that's really great advice. In terms of your journey, are there any kind of major setbacks or mistakes that you've made throughout which really stand out to you as kind of pivotal moments in terms of maybe learning or development?

Yeah, well, if we did the mistakes list, we'd be here a long time, so let's not go there. Let's focus on setbacks. As I said earlier, it's all about people. I genuinely mean that. And what— where the setbacks come, I think, are when something with you people goes wrong or a market changes beyond recognition. So, you know, you've had people die, people leave you when you don't want them to, people don't live up to expectations. They're always a setback to a certain degree, an extent, and they can cause great upset on occasions as well. But Also, I think I say that a market can change. Business, you say it yourself, businesses are changing so fast these days. Markets change so fast, sectors change so quickly. And we had an example of that which actually we were able to turn into one of our greatest triumphs, I think it would be fair to say. And it's public knowledge, so I can talk about it. The insurance industry we were in, we had a very large division that focused on claims, particularly low-value claims, commoditized claims, and the market for that changed dramatically over a very short period of time from it being one that was profitable, very cash generative, to one that within our organization was no longer profitable and really was bringing the business down. Yeah. Because we're a partnership, so we share equally, and that was causing us significant difficulties and we really tried everything to put it right, we just couldn't, you know, and we got to the stage where we realised we had to lose it. Yeah. But we were able to find an acquirer, a business that wanted all of our business. We were able to persuade our people it was in their best interest to go, and that's 350 people. At the time, and we were able to do a deal that meant that we got out of it what we needed as Hill Dickinson. And it all had ended very, very happily. That could have brought the firm down. If that had gone wrong, we'd have had to look for an acquirer ourselves or merge or, dare I say it, you know, we might have gone bust. I suppose the moral of the story is you're going to get setbacks in any career, any business, you know, you've got to get setbacks. Don't panic. Face them, face up to them and devise a solution. And if you've got, as I said earlier, you've got a team around you that knows what they're doing, use them. Take counsel, take advice as the manager, the CEO, whatever it might be, the leader. And don't see a setback as a failure, don't see it as fatal, don't see it as existential. See it for what it is, but then how are you going to use it to your best advantage? Is there a way? If there isn't, fine, but how can you use it? How can you deal with it? How can you get over this obstacle? How can you get through it, round it, whatever it might be? Because it's going to happen. You're going to get setbacks and some of them are going to hurt. But that's going to happen. Accept it.

Yeah.

And always try and think positively as to how you can use that in some way to move forward.

I think that mindset is really important. It's something that I learned kind of along my journey already, and it's something that's really helped me, is just kind of always reframing it rather than seeing it as a negative, seeing it as a positive. It can be really, really impactful. So yeah, I think that's great advice for students listening.

My COO at the time called it the judo technique.

Oh nice, I like that.

So, um, and I think what he meant, uh, was that, you know, you're on your way back, but throw it back at somebody.

Nice.

Um, and I, I believe in that.

Yeah, I'm gonna steal that name for now.

Okay, it's yours.

But yeah, in terms of a bit more then about Hill Dickinson.

Yeah, sure.

I'm sure there's a lot of students listening right now, a lot of young people that are thinking about applying for graduate roles, maybe interested in law. What entry-level roles does Hill Dickinson offer at the moment?

A number. So the obvious one, the traditional one, is what we now call training contracts. So that's for those students who have the necessary qualifications or are getting them and want to become solicitors, and that can be a two— well, Classically, it's a 2-year training contract. It can be less now if you've worked in a business, and we can talk about that in a second. But at the end of it, you will qualify as a solicitor. There are other roles now available. Well, let's just stick on the lawyer bit for a moment. And for those who aren't sure yet whether they want a training contract or can't get one, either with us or elsewhere, we employ now paralegals and what we call legal administrative assistants. And that can be a bit of a mixed role between administrative and legal, but it will give someone who wants to think about it an opportunity to see a law firm in action, to be in a law firm and practicing, and perhaps then move on to a training contract or one of the other routes into being a solicitor that are now available. Apprenticeships, now we do both legally and for— sorry, for lawyers and for all the disciplines within our organization, because obviously we've got an HR department, finance department, business development, marketing, whatever, IT. There are roles there for entry-level graduates to come in. The legal ones are more relevant probably for us, but there is, there are a number of ways now that people can come into the profession, and we do take a number of people every year through one of those routes.

Yeah, no, that's amazing. I think there's so much, so much opportunity out there right now for students to get involved in different areas. In terms of applications, what would your advice be to students about how they can actually make the application stand out a bit from the crowd? Because I'm sure that you must get tons of applications every single year. How can students actually make sure they stand out from the crowd?

Okay, well, let's just think about the process first. So it's all online for the first two stages. So there's an online application, then there's an online assessment. So you are restricted to what you write first thing. So, you know, make it as distinctive Make it as relevant, make it as— not necessarily differential, because differential can work two ways, but make it distinctive.

Yeah.

Really make sure you get across your best points, your good points. We then have an assessment day, and that's about us getting a feel for who you are as an individual, you know, face-to-face. We don't necessarily look for extroverts or introverts, there's no type that we're looking for, and there's nothing really you can do other than be genuine, be honest, be yourself, and give it your best go at that stage, I think. Whether it's the online application or if you're fortunate enough to get to an assessment day for a training contract, make sure you know what Hill Dickinson's all about. And this is a general point about any law firm, practice, business that you're going into. I know it's stating the blindingly obvious, but I'm stating the blindingly obvious.

Yeah.

Do your homework. It's back to the point we made earlier. You've got it all at your fingertips these days. You can find out anything about me, the firm, whatever you want these days. Do it.

I think in a weird way you say it's blindingly obvious, but I think because it's so obvious and because people get told it so much, they often forget how important it is. And so like, I've spoke to people before who've said you would be surprised the amount of people who have no idea in interviews what their company does.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spell Hill Dickinson, right? Seriously, how many times do we get Hill Dickinson? And I personally, I just say, well, I'm not interested at that point because that gives you a— it's a very unfortunate, it's prejudicial, it's unfair, I know it is. But on the other hand, we're a business that thrives on attention to detail. We're a business where if we get things like that wrong with our clients, A, we lose business, B, we may end up getting sued for professional negligence. And it's not too much to ask that at that stage of your career, detail is really important. So find out what's going on, find out about the business, and do focus on the detail and make sure you get yourself over to the best advantage. Yeah, probably what I would say.

In terms of, in terms of, you've already kind of given a lot of advice there for, and I mean that applies to anyone, but previously to people that want to enter law at Hill Dickinson. How about for people that maybe want to or aspire to be in business leadership positions one day? What advice would you give to those students?

Yeah, okay, okay, well let's look at this from two lenses. Really, I mean, these days— well, no, it always has been the case. There are people who believe at a very early stage of the career that management of one description or another is something they want to be in. It's not sector-focused, it's not about law firms necessarily, it's not about retail, it's not about— but they want to be professional managers. And there's a wealth of things they can do at the early stage of their training career there to learn that project management, courses, an MBA if that's available. Many major employers now run graduate management schemes, don't they, in various sectors. If an individual, if a student has got that in their mind now, that management, managing people, managing a business is something they want to do, then go down that route. Don't waste time studying politics or English or history or law. If that's what you want to do and you're absolutely sure about it, go for it.

Yeah.

The second way is, you know, how did I get into management? You know, you're in a business already and you decided that you think you want to go further in management. That's about, I think, first of all, really getting involved in the business, make yourself stand out, not necessarily by being the best or the biggest or the most profitable or whatever it might be, but by getting involved, getting engaged. Make sure people know who you are within the business. It's what we say to all of our younger people coming through, you know, you get out of it what you put in. And if you put in a lot of engagement and time, then you'll get things out of it. That certainly applies if you want to be a leader. Yeah. You know, get involved in things, get stuck in. And also, if you start to have those hankerings, if I can put it that way, tell somebody. You know, if somebody came to me or our HR director, any one of my business group leaders, and said, actually, I'm thinking about maybe one day, you know, doing a bit, we would help them. Yeah, you know, we can start to point them in the right direction. I would say if you're in a— I'll use a law firm as an example and forget the professional manager, you know, MBA route. At the early stages of your career, about learning how to do the day job, You know, you're unlikely to manage Barcelona if you've just got your coaching badges. And you've got to really work out what football's all about before you go on to manage Barcelona. Sorry, that's a— well, actually, no, it's a good analogy.

No, I love that analogy. I love that analogy, yeah.

Anyone who knows me know I use those analogies quite a lot. But seriously, you know, you've got to know your business. The early stage of your career, you're learning how to be a lawyer, how to be a solicitor, how to be a barrister, whatever it might be. Don't be sidetracked if that's the way you go.

Yeah.

If you want to be a manager and you know that, go somewhere else. If you want to go into a business and flourish in the business, learn about the business and the trade, the profession that you're in. If then you start to think management could be for you, great. At that point, start to branch out, start to get involved more, start to ask and what have you. Don't be sidetracked in the early stages of your career. You know, you've got to know how to play the game. Yeah. You might not be very good at it, not all managers were great footballers.

Yeah.

But you've got to know how, you know, how it works. You've got to know how the people work. You're managing people if you do go further, whether it's 1,000 people like me or, you know, a trainee, an article, you know, a trainee, an assistant, and a secretary. Yeah. You're still managing people and you've got to know what makes them tick and what the job means for them and how that works for them.

So that, I guess that would apply then even to people like you said who are maybe from an earlier age understand that, okay, management is a career that I want to be in when I'm older, they still have to kind of understand and be patient in the fact that you can't just go into a business and immediately be a manager. You need to first understand the business, you need to understand the people and learn that before you're ever capable of being a great manager, essentially.

Yes, I think that's right. And certainly we talked earlier, didn't we, about sort of graduate management schemes that I know a lot of big employers do. As I understand those schemes, obviously never done one myself, but spoke to people who have done, You're exposed within those schemes to various parts of a business. You know, you will go and work in HR, you will go and work on the shop counter, you'll go and work in the warehouse, whatever it might be, in addition to learning people skills and IT skills, whatever it might be, so that you are exposed to how the business works in all its facets. And if you do then aspire to manage bigger things, you know how it works, you know what it's like on the shop floor. You're not just going in as a professional manager, you've actually done the day job.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important. It's really important on my route as well, you know, the lawyer who decides to go to management, you've got to know, you know, how the nuts and bolts work together before you can actually sort of, it's a dreadful idea, put them together, forget it, let's go back to football. Yeah. But you see my point.

Yeah, no, 100%. I think that often as young people— I've been guilty of this, I'm sure many of our listeners have been guilty of this— you can often be a bit impatient and want to fast-track things, but actually sometimes you just need to do the work. You need to put that groundwork in until you can really reap those rewards and enjoy kind of managing people, essentially, in this case, but outside of that, in other cases too.

Yes, I think that's right. And if you're that impatient, you go into a startup.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, you know, you have that option.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but even there, as you grow You're going to have to learn on the job. That's what I said earlier, because, you know, you may have you and your mate on day 1. You'd like to think by day 1,000 you've got people around you and you've got to lead them, you've got to manage them, you've got to motivate them and cultivate them. So I don't think there's a fast-track route.

Agreed. Um, but yeah, I mean, that kind of wraps it up. In terms of one final point for, for the students listening, is there any final piece of advice that you'd like to advice to give them that you would maybe have given to your younger self?

Oh yes, it's back to some of the things we've said earlier, to develop a little bit. Insofar as you can, because you're young and you might not necessarily know where you want to end up, but have a reasonable idea of where you want to start. It's back to picking the right business for you, the right culture for you. You know, at whatever stage it is, where might you end up? Where might you want to be? And be very clear about that as a starting point. If you're going into any professional service firm, and obviously I'm, you know, law firms, I know a lot about that and other professional service firms. Yes, you've got to learn the day job, you've got to learn how to play football, of course you have, but also start building your network. It's never too early to start recognising that You know, the boys and girls you play fiveside football with on a Tuesday night could be clients of yours for life. Yeah. You know, they could be the next chairman of PwC. They could be, they could be. They might not, but so what? They're people that you enjoy spending time with anyway. Don't lose sight of that.

Yeah.

It's difficult. I know it's hard. We ask trainees these days to be Superman and Superwoman. I get that. But, you know, you've got to learn the day job. At the same time, you've got to start building a network around you that you can rely on if it works for many, many years to come, either as clients or, you know, as I've said, people to lean on when you need advice. Never too early to start that, I think. Yeah. So yeah, learn the day job, really work hard on the day job, become, you know, a master, mistress of what you're doing, but at the same time build your network, build people around you, and see how it goes.

I think that's amazing advice. Thank you so much again for coming on, Peter.

My pleasure.

And if any of the students listening are interested in law or any other areas, then definitely take a look at Hill Dickinson's offers. And if you do apply, make sure to spell it right.

Yeah, and seriously, and I'm not— I'm hoping inundating me with 70,000 emails isn't going to happen, but if anyone wants more, get in touch. You know where I am, I'm on the website.

Amazing, thank you very much.

All right.