Phil & Dom Kwok, Founders @ EasyA

Hey everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. I'm here with Dom and Phil of Eazy-A. Guys, if you could just, uh, start off by explaining what Eazy-A is exactly.

Yeah, so a way to think about us— well, first of all, thanks for having us on, Pete. Second of all, EasyA is basically Duolingo but for emerging tech. So blockchain is like the big focus that we have, Web3, and it allows people just via the app to learn about anything that they want to learn about in that space just very easily at the push of a couple of buttons.

Yeah, and let's take it back to pre-anything EasyA. You're both brothers and You're both going down different routes, and then when was it you realized that the problem that EZA is trying to solve needed solving?

Well, we've been on a, I'd say, a journey with EZA. So when we initially launched it, this was— so we moved back from New York in end of 2019, and this was around mid-2020 when we really launched it. And it was initially a knowledge marketplace, so essentially a way that people could learn about different topics. From people who were just a couple of steps ahead of them. So, sort of like peer-to-peer mentorship, really focused around STEM, so like math, science, computer science. And it eventually blossomed into this thing where we had so many people who were asking questions, very quickly became clear that it was becoming difficult to scale. Like, people absolutely loved it, they raved about it. We needed to find a way to reach beyond just, you know, the tens of thousands of users that we had to grow into the hundreds of thousands and eventually millions. That was where we eventually blossomed into being this more content-based side. So leaning into more of the Duolingo side in a similar way to how like you could have a language tutor, right? And so EasyA was very much more like that in terms of helping for STEM subjects. But then we're like, okay, what if we actually took a leaf out of Duolingo's book and instead of being like a language tutor one-on-one with a real human, what if you could actually do it in a more scalable way, which is like actually having that content there? And that's what became EasyA today.

So you say it's aimed at people in the STEM area, and obviously one thing that your company has progressed into is these hackathons, something that I helped you guys out with, one of them. It was a very crazy and eye-opening experience with some very talented developers there. Why did you think that, you know, that was the next step to— I mean, it's kind of Web3, Bitcoin, hackathon, which are all words that I don't know that well, and nor probably does the audience. So if you could explain exactly what the purpose is behind the events and what people would get out of it coming to them.

Yeah, definitely. So obviously, you know, the EazyA community lives in the EazyA app, in which we have a community of over 750,000 developers all across the world, mostly in the US and in the UK. But a big part of what we want to do as well is get those developers actually building out long-lasting projects in different Web3 and blockchain ecosystems. So when we look at the recent hackathon that we worked together on, the Stacks Hackathon, which was a Bitcoin hackathon at the heart of London, we really set out to encourage people to come in person and actually build out their ideas over the course of a weekend. So we give people 2 days basically to work on an idea that they've built using the knowledge that they've acquired through our app. And so that's a really great opportunity for people to build an idea, seek funding as well. We have VCs often at these events, we have different people from the ecosystem there as well to provide grants for them to continue to take their ideas to the next level. So the IRL events are a really great way for people to pitch their ideas, start building their ideas, and actually use it as a springboard of which they can actually take their projects long term.

Yeah, one interesting thing I noticed when I was there is that there were people that were attending that actually knew like nothing about what they were coming to, and it was like a really good education tool as well for Web3. So for people that didn't attend the event, how would you try and explain and break down Web3 into something, you know, maybe digestible for your average person?

I think maybe the easiest way to explain what a hackathon actually is, it's basically just, it's basically a 2-day event. I think the word hackathon is maybe a little bit scary for people. It's like, You said this earlier when we were preparing, it was like, you know, you're actually hacking into something, right? People aren't hacking into anything and they're just building a project. So it's hacking in the sense of just putting something together very, very quickly. It doesn't even necessarily have to be totally coding related. So it's not like people like wearing these hoodies, sitting in a dark room for 2 days, like hacking into government systems. It's people putting together their ideas into a cool project. And they're also like hacking together presentations. They are putting together a lot of code, of course, but also their business ideas, trying to get their first users even sometimes, hacking social media. It's like growth hacking, right? So there's so much more to it. I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically just coming together with friends and building something that you think you want to build in a very short period of time.

Yeah, it's funny, when I was explaining what you guys did to my producer, she thought I was saying hacking phones or what. They hack phones. I was like, just to clarify, yeah, it's not that, but you can find out in the episode.

Kind of thing.

But, um, yeah, we, we sort of, um, go back to your careers in itself. You both went to Cambridge, you both had, uh, oh no, you went to Cambridge and we had great corporate careers lined up. And then it's a big, you know, jump where you've got all this, you know, you got a wage, you've got, uh, expectations, and you know, you know what you're doing in this corporate career. Then you've decided to completely scrap that and, and go ahead with your own startup. Talk me through that decision as brothers as well, like what was the reasons you would do it, why you wouldn't, and what did you have to overcome?

Yeah, I can start with mine and then Dom can chip in with his story. They're very similar, so we both went to school together, we're brothers, grew up together. I guess the fork in the path was sort of around university, so I went off to Cambridge and then read law there, and so that was when I stayed in the UK. Dom obviously went over to the US as an which I'm sure he'll talk about in a second. But I'd say actually, interestingly enough for us, it wasn't maybe as big of a leap as maybe it looks like. So on the outside, it looks like, you know, went to Cambridge, then went and became an attorney in New York, and then took the plunge into actually, you know, starting ECA and just like going, you know, full in, dropping basically the corporate life, as you just said, and then coming in and starting a startup. In reality, the whole journey started way, way back. Very early on in school even, just starting to code when I was 13 years old, then first got into mining Bitcoin in about 2013, so this was like 10 years ago. And then, you know, throughout that we're just launching loads and loads of cool products, trying to get people using them, trying to get people to like use a version of Facebook that I originally created, which was just like connecting people at school, so like more of a school-based social network. Then, you know, building off that, iterating, at university we both launched two marketplace startups. And then after that, then we decided, okay, let's finish this off. You know, I had to sort of, you know, just finish that journey as a lawyer, actually get qualified, and then, you know, basically check off that box. And then came and found EasyA afterwards. So it was really more of a progression. I sort of always knew that, or we always knew that we wanted to come back to it. And I think it's probably a similar story to Dom as well.

Yeah, definitely. So I went after doing my high school education in the UK, went to the US. To the University of Pennsylvania, where I studied finance at Wharton as an undergrad, and then briefly after worked at Blackstone in New York. So, you know, similar to Phil, very corporate traditional path. But actually, shortly after working at Blackstone, was hired by Travis Kalanick, the former CEO and founder of Uber, to actually help him set up his new startup, CloudKitchens. So I was one of the first hires there and really sort of, you know, saw how a startup works from the inside out and really sort of had a firsthand view into what it's like to start a company from scratch with obviously, you know, a really well-known and notable founder. And that's really sort of, you know, when I thought, okay, this is something exciting that we could actually do, you know, Philip and myself. And so, you know, obviously we had this experience with some other startups in the past, founding them, launching them, bringing them to the market, but we actually thought, okay, now is the time really to actually do this full-time. Now that, you know, we are full-time humans, we've, you know, obviously have full-time jobs, it's time to leave that behind.

I've always been a full-time human. The revelation.

It's time to leave that behind and then, yeah, and then go ahead and start our own company. So I think that's really, you know, how it all happened for me, and obviously, you know, combined with that past experience really led us down this path, which is, yeah, so far, you know, the last couple years been really exciting, and yeah, sort of, you know, growing faster than we could have ever imagined.

Yeah, one thing that stands out to me there is like that awareness that you had from a young age of like just alternative routes to what you're actually pursuing in education. I feel like it's It's something that is really lacking in universities, that tradition, even that exposure to have the awareness of other routes you can take. I mean, how did you— you say, oh, I just started coding when I was 13, or I just got invited to the startup with the Uber, ex-Uber founder. How do you actually go about getting into those positions where you could get those positions? Or, you know, start coding, whatever it is.

I think, well, Tom has his story about how he got tapped by Cloud Kitchens and Travis, but I guess for me with coding, it was just like, I've always taken this perspective that you just need to start doing it and not think about it too much. I think Richard Branson has this amazing saying, which is like, screw it, just do it, right? And I think that that mantra is something that everybody needs to have a bit more of as well. Some of us take ourselves a little bit too seriously. It's like, 'Coding is so difficult, how am I going to learn?' Even for somebody who's like, you know, in their late teens or early 20s, they're like, 'Oh, what about all those people who started it way, way, like ages ago?' And I've always just taken the perspective that you just need to do it, and if you think about it too much, yes, it's going to be too difficult. Like, you know, even starting something as small as just setting up like an Instagram page, for example, or setting up a website for your business, it just seems like this gargantuan task, And it's like, how am I ever going to get people to visit it? How am I going to get people to follow me on Instagram? All of this stuff, it just seems so overwhelming, whereas in reality, you just need to set something up and who knows what will happen. Like, you know, chances are that it might, it probably might fail, but you'll have learned so much. And the next time, there's always next time, right? And so we're just catching up actually with another team that came out of EZA, that raised from A16Z, and they're now building out their project. They are just students, so they dropped out of Harvard. They're still on campus, so they get the full experience, but it's sort of like they've taken that approach as well. It's like, you know, I'm at university, I might as well just start something, build something cool, and who knows what will happen. I'll have learned a huge amount. They've raised from some of the best venture capitalists in the world as well, and who knows, they could build it into the next Facebook or the next Google, and they will be none the poorer for having actually tried. And yeah, I mean, Dom probably has a story about Travis.

Yeah, I mean, so yeah, not as interesting, I guess, as you may think. But basically, I was working one day, and I got a LinkedIn message from one of Travis's team, who basically were helping him set this whole new team up for CloudKitchens. And they were inviting me to this event, where he was basically going from city to city to kind of find people to join him on this quest. So I decided to go on a Friday evening to one of the events downtown New York and, yeah, met Travis, listened to his vision, was really inspired, and we kind of just, you know, took things from there. So, yeah, it was a LinkedIn message, I guess, that resulted in that.

So make sure your LinkedIn profile is really good.

Phil, you mentioned Richard Branson there. And I think one thing that I always think with him, which is interesting, is he kind of pioneered in a way, like, having your company associated with the person itself, like being the face of the brand. And I think with your content, you are very much the face of the brand as well. You don't hide behind a screen, like, you're front and center in the Instagram videos and everything like that. Why do you think that's an important thing to be doing it for, like, companies in general nowadays, but certainly yours as well?

That's a great question. It's one I think about a lot, actually. I think that what we've seen people move towards is, first of all, just in terms of growth, right? I think this is really just a progression that's happened maybe over the past few decades. Today, in order to build a company or a business, you need to have a very, very strong social media presence. And so my perspective on it is essentially, you know, you have these Instagram, these TikTok pages, these Facebook pages. I mean, maybe people don't really use Facebook too much anymore, But all these different pages, right, or accounts. And if you want to grow on those accounts in order to grow your business as well, you cannot be just like a plain old brand posting up like company updates or, you know, this new thing just launched. People don't have any affinity to that and they won't follow you, right? So I think it's very, very hard to build a following if you don't have a personal brand behind it as well. So yeah, you talk about Richard Branson, they've done it really well. I mean, looking more recently as well, you know, you've got the whole Kardashian lineage who built this whole, these whole lines of businesses around their brands, like Kylie's lips, that sort of thing. Even if you're not building cosmetics, people just want to follow or see the story behind what's being created. And I think maybe one of the companies that's been able to steer through all of this and through all these different decades is actually Apple, right? And so there was obviously a big visionary, Steve Jobs, but they've still managed to keep a story, right? And so a story behind not just the founder, but also behind why you should buy, for example, the latest iPhone or the Mac. And so it's classic, like, you know, in a similar way to Nike as well. Even if they don't necessarily focus on the founder, or if you're, you know, for anybody who's listening and doesn't necessarily want to be the face of the brand, at least having a story behind why it was created. Like the Mac, you use it because you want to improve yourself, right? You want to gain access to becoming, you know, a better musician, or a better artist, or a better designer, and the Mac enables you to do that. And so sort of projecting that vision, I think it's very easy to do that much easier to do it with a personal brand and as the face behind it, which is very difficult to do it if you're just like a logo that people see.

Do you think it matters which one comes first, the personal brand or the actual product? Because, you know, you see it happening both ways, right? People make a personal brand, people like become attached to that person, and then anything that they set up already has that like interest. Or, you know, with you guys, you know, with your experience in coding and whatever, like it seemed like the product was there already, so it was just a matter of then going up to build a personal brand. So yeah, do you think it's important personally?

Yeah, I think it definitely helps to have the personal brand before you launch the product, because, you know, like Phil was saying, people resonate with a person much more than a brand. And so I think, you know, a lot of times you'll see influencers who first build up their own personal image and then they launch products based off that. So yeah, whether it's, you know, in the fitness space or in the education space, it's really important, I think, across all spheres to have the personal brand. And then obviously once you build up that community, they start to trust you, and then you also obviously have a good distribution channel for getting that product into people's hands, which is really important because, yeah, if you just have a great product and no one knows about it, as you know, there's not much, much point in that.

One thing I'm becoming increasingly interested in as I continue doing the Grad Guide and find out what I'm really passionate about is the concept of how co-founders interact and make sure the right work is delegated, make sure you're compatible. And obviously your story is a little bit different in that you're actually blood-related, but I mean, there's still then a process of Okay, who's better at what? Was that always very obvious from the get-go, all the hurdles that you, you know, oh, it's just us at the beginning, like, I don't want to do that, you want to do that, like, how did that sort of negotiation process go? Was it just, you know, easy as?

Well, I think for us, we've just been working together for so long. Yeah, exactly, easy, eh? We've just been working together for so long, it's sort of been second nature. I don't know, it's hard to point to a particular moment. I think, you know, some Some startups or some founders, they'll say, you know, at one point we just sat down and we laid it out on a piece of paper. For us, it was much more organic, and it was always just like, you know, working on different bits together and then figuring out where our strengths lie. And to be honest, I think that actually when you're an early-stage startup, both of the co-founders should be doing pretty much everything together. You know, it's so difficult to pigeonhole one of you into one or other. There's just so much work to be done. That at times maybe you both need to be focused on one particular area, so building the product. So, I mean, I guess even within that you have a little bit of a differentiation, like, you know, Dom was more on the front end, I was more on the back end when we were building the original version of the app. But then we would always, you know, switch, right? So some days then I would be on the front end. I think it's just important, to be honest, for founders just like not to take a too rigid approach to it and like think about all the time like, okay, this co-founder is the business guy and this one is the technical guy. You know, founded a lot of startups before EZA, at university as well. I think we tried to set that out in one of the startups that we worked on then. It ended up being relatively artificial. Sometimes the technical people are actually really good at marketing, right? And so if you have like a CTO role, it's difficult to say, okay, actually you're CTO, you only do the tech and listen to me about the marketing, right? If I'm the CMO and if I'm the CEO, I overrule all of you guys. I think it's more at the end of the day about having more of a fluid relationship and just figuring things out as you go.

Yeah, I think that's kind of contributed to the rise of this role of founders associate, right? Like, is there somebody who can kind of do everything, is interested in— like, that is the most valuable person to a company, really. Someone who can just— you can give them a task, they get the mission statement, they get your why, and they just they've soaked in what you do and then they just, yeah, do it for you essentially.

Do you find actually a lot of people, I guess, within the Graduate Guide community are interested in that sort of role or are looking at it?

Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's an awareness thing. Like, you don't get told about a Founder's Associate role at university.

Exactly, yeah, I was going to say.

You don't even get told them at networking events either. I feel like, you know, you're so drilled into you whenever you start a project as a business, like, you've got to pick your niche, right?

Like, yeah, exactly.

Like, what if you're actually— you can find out your niche by working on something?

Yeah.

Which is kind of the concept, right? I guess. Um, and it's how I would, as a businessman, but like, moving forward, I'd like to bring people onto the team in that way where, yes, I've picked them because they're very good at something, but like, what could they also be good at? What would they like to also be good at? Yeah. One thing I found interesting, like what you said there, and you know, maybe it sounds like a bit of an obvious or simple question, but you said that there's always so much work to do, right? And I find that like an interesting concept when it's— you're creating the work for yourself. So, you know, nobody's setting you these tasks, they were saying you've got to meet this deadline, whatever. And when you were first starting this project, like, no, there's no accountability from other companies being like They don't care if you don't do it, like they don't care if you don't post that day or whatever. So, when you say there's so much work to do, how are you actually setting yourself that work? What does that process look like?

It's a good question. I mean, I think actually, you know, there's a really— somebody put this really nicely, I can't remember who exactly said it, but basically they said if you don't know what you're going to do, like if you have 10 minutes free, you probably haven't found exactly what you should be working on yet. Because when you've really, really found it, that sort of crystal, you know, like we found with ECA, we know exactly what to do. And there's like so much to do. Whereas I think you only ever find yourself with like wondering what tasks you should do if you haven't truly found not necessarily just what you love, but like something that you really should be working on as like a grand vision, right? Because when you have something so big, like, you know, our vision is to reach the next billion developers in Web3. There's so many people, right? There's just like so many things that we need to be doing at any one time. And, you know, if you gave me 10 minutes free, I would have a whole list of things that I need to go through. If you, you know, if I had an hour free, I'd have a different list as well for things that I can do within that period of time. I just think that there's, you know, it's not necessarily like, you know, calculating exactly, you know, that there are these tasks that I need to do in the week and doing them. Things will come up along the way. It's very, very different, as you said, like to being in a corporate where it's like, you know, for example, when I was at the law firm, it's like, Okay, you need to do this, you have these clients you need to meet, then you have this set of tasks, and when it's done, it's done, and you can sort of go home. Because the task is so gargantuan, right? You just need to be doing everything all the time. I mean, probably same with you, right?

Yeah, no, I agree, yeah.

If you use our relationship and how that is materialized as a case study, that, you know, it doesn't come into my life, oh, I need to meet Peter and then develop this, like, before we'd ever met, like, that is not something on the workflow, whatever, but How do you sort of, you know, perceive— I guess it's like allowing yourself to be creative and going with the wind to some extent, which is an important thing to be as a startup where you, you know, something you can't be so like pigeonholed, as you said, like to only doing the work that needs to get done. You need to be open to other people's ideas. Like, do you add that to your working day, or is that just something that like ongoing you spend so much time together that it's just something you chat about throughout the day?

We had this relationship all planned out. We knew that we were going to be doing this podcast too. Uh, no, but in all seriousness, um, yeah, I think that you need to leave yourself a little bit of room sometimes, like not necessarily calculating the whole day in terms of blocking it out. There are some weeks that are like that, right, where it's like literally everything is like back-to-back meetings, you know exactly what you have to do, um, as in like not just know what you have to do, as in you actually have to do it then. But I would say that you sort of want to limit the number of weeks where you have to do that, where you're like, you know, 110% overloaded, because it does lead to you missing out on some things, right? So, you know, when we first met, we just were like, okay, yeah, let's go out for lunch, let's meet, right? If we weren't able to do that, if we just like, you know, got time for like a— well, no time to meet this week, but next week we could do like a 10-minute call. I don't think we would have discussed any of the cool stuff that we discussed or found out about the vision behind what you're building with the Graduate Guide. And it would just never have happened. So I think it's really important actually not sometimes to be like always at like 110%, 150% or even 200%. Like sometimes you do just need to take a step back and honestly, like, you know, I'm not talking about going on like a retreat or anything like that. I'm just saying like just to go for lunch, right? Something small like that. Whereas like I've always been somebody who's like really, really heads down, just like always, always building. I think, you know, having that opportunity just like go for lunch like, you know, once a couple of weeks or, you know, once a week with somebody new has just like been able to open a lot of doors.

Yeah, and I think, you know, meeting new people as well is invaluable because you never know who they know, you never know, you know, what they're working on besides their main job. They might have, you know, a really interesting podcast as well that you could get involved with. So yeah, I think, you know, making sure that you meet as many people as possible and then actually delve deeper into some of their interests can always be really valuable to whatever you're doing. Because, yeah, like you can imagine, the title or the role that they have doesn't encompass them necessarily as a person.

It's the reason we do some of these hackathons. We could do them virtually, right? We could just set a challenge as well and say, "Here, submit via this form," right? And the best technical project wins or the best business idea. Like it just doesn't have anywhere near the same impact where you've got people in person together making new friends. And like there are even times when I look back and think for the hackathons that I went to, I learned so much from the other people who are around me about working in a team. And, you know, even I get notifications for the project that we worked on many, many years ago because there are like security advisories on it, like we need to update packages. But it's still like reminds me, you know, pretty much every week that, oh, this is, you know, this is something I worked on back then. Learned so much about— this was actually a machine learning one or AI one, like at the Facebook offices a couple of years ago— and learned so much about, you know, AI and these different models just at that hackathon that now is relevant today. And so, you know, Steve Jobs always says like, it's impossible to connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking back. And I think that's so true. It's like why you need to have sometimes, you know, these opportunities for spontaneity as well.

Yeah, like collaboration, I think, just in general is so important. I mean, I think, yeah, just on that, I guess each person works better in different situations. Like, some people do, uh, do like being lone wolves and just getting stuff done or whatever, but I think if you feel like you're not working as hard as you could be, then you kind of have to start questioning if you're allocating your, your time into how you're actually working the right way. For me, I, I know that I realized from a very young age that I need other people around me. I need to be either teaching someone or being taught by someone. To actually digest the information and then go on to do something. Like, yeah, it's kind of like, I guess they're like sponge people, right? Yeah, there are some people that are not like that. Um, let's talk about your education a little bit more. Um, not to be too presumptive, but given that you both had like, went to great unis and had a good education, one might think that education might have come quite naturally to you and like it was easy, you know, your brain was just like, you know, it was easy for you to be good at maths or STEM subjects or anything. Is that true? Like, what was your experience of Cambridge, for example, actually like? Like, did you find it overwhelming? Because people talk about Oxford being like, you know, very intense, and, you know, some people, you know, you either— you live and die by that sword, right? It makes you or breaks you. So what was your, like, experience at university?

Yeah, I mean, definitely very different to Dom's. US college experience is very different. UK, yeah, I'd say at Cambridge— I mean, I was just up again on Monday evening and we were chatting with a couple of the, you know, current undergrads because we do still do a lot with my old college Pembroke, you know, chatting with the master as well about the differences that he sees with students. And I think, yeah, I would say the biggest— the best way to describe it is what somebody told me in my first year, which is that it's really hard but it's manageable, right? And I think that that dichotomy is so, so important. A lot of people think, oh, it's really, really hard, I'm gonna fail, or I'm not gonna be able to get through it, but it genuinely is manageable. And I think that applies to so many different tasks in life. Like, no matter how hard it is, most of the things, like, very, very few of them are actually gonna break you. Very few of them are actually unmanageable. And, you know, again, there's that saying, like, you know, the mind will break 100 times before the body does. I mean, I'm not saying that, like, studying is that hard, but it's like, you know, that sort of concept, right? It's like, you know, it's really, really manageable. And I think, to be honest, like, yeah, obviously, you know, I won those scholarships at Cambridge, you know, came top of my year as well, but it was really just like, you know, just having that idea that it's manageable, you work hard, and you can also have a lot of fun along the way. But in the US, they focus a lot less on the academics, or not necessarily less on the academics, but just more on the other sides of life as well.

Yeah, I think the US university experience is much more well-rounded compared to the UK. I think, you know, there's a focus on academics obviously, but at the same time there's, you know, also a focus on meeting other people, networking, thinking about, you know, pursuing your passions, whatever those may be. So I think that's one of the reasons why I chose to go to university in the US, and I think there's also a big focus on careers afterwards, both in terms of jobs but also in terms of startups. I think there's a very big startup culture in the US, which is really cool for a lot of young people who are looking to start their own companies as well. So yeah, I think, you know, in my perspective, I think the US was a really great place to study.

Though I've not studied in the US myself, I completely agree that, you know, in the UK it's just not really good enough right now. The idea that you go from school where it's all very regimented, you have a structure, to literally nothing when you go to university, it's like professors don't care if you submit your work, and they don't really, you know, other than like offering, you know, some career coaching for your CV or brochure. Yeah, it's basically everything's left up to you as a student. So yeah, I think you've got to work with what you've got, right? I mean, and my biggest advice to anyone listening who is a student is, you know, get online and start, you know, for example, if you were interested in anything to do with coding, whatever, like try and find things like EasyAid, try and attend the hackathons. Like, you have to be proactive with doing that, or you'll just get left behind. And that's the sad truth of it. Um, I mean, I, I— a lot of the, um, founders that I have had on this podcast, they, they will have a different relationship with how they see the benefits of starting something from a young age. Like, you guys did start things from a young age, you know. For example, uh, really interesting, Tom just saw it as nothing more than just a head start that he needed. Like, he was always someone that had extra time in like exams, whatever, and he saw the fact that he started his company when he was 16 as just like having that equivalent of extra time in exams. In a business sense, you can try and fail and you know, nobody really has any high expectations of you at a young age. So yeah, what's your relationship and how do you look back on starting at such a young age?

For me, I don't think I ever really thought about it too much in a meta way. I think it just started off even just with stuff at school, like, you know, first business, you know, looking back is really just like, you know, was making paper planes and then selling them because I had like a cool way of making them, right? Just in the school parking lot and like, in primary school. And then stuff like that, you just learn it. And I feel like it just became a habit of just starting stuff and, you know, making little businesses, you know, making a bit of money here and there, seeing like, okay, you know what, if I bought this much paper for a paper plane, or— well, I definitely didn't take it from the art gallery and just steal it. But, you know, if I had this amount to start off with, you know, would it add up at the end? Yeah, that's definitely not a confession. But yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, it just became a habit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, well, Dom, for you, I guess, uh, I want to hear a little bit more and dive into what you were talking about in the US there, that startup culture. If you talk about the failings of the UK, what is it you think that the UK can learn from the US?

Yeah, I think, well, number one, it's just the structure and the ability to take time off. At university. So I think in the UK, traditionally, it's quite hard to, you know, take a year or two out. Definitely, I know, you know, Cambridge, when Phil was there, it was, you know, basically impossible to take a year out or even take a leave of absence unless for a serious medical reason. So I think, you know, the US does a great job of allowing you to do that, which then in turn allows you as a student to really think about, you know, what you want to do business-wise You can literally take a year out and then come back after a year or two, just put your studies on hold without too many ramifications. Obviously, your friends might be gone in the meantime and have graduated, but other than that, you can come back and just, you know, click play and resume where you left off. So I think that's something that could really benefit students in the UK, so it's not such a drastic decision to drop out, so to speak. Because you know you can always come back. It's not like you drop out and then you have to say bye to university forever, which I think is the case for a lot of students in the UK. And then I think, you know, just encouraging people to think about doing other things than, you know, go into banking, consulting, law, or, you know, potentially becoming a doctor as well. I think, you know, letting people know that there are these other opportunities, inviting speakers, I think that's what the US does really well. Is inviting alums back to the universities, people who have been successful in different fields, not just pure career days, but actually letting entrepreneurs, and maybe young ones too, come back and share their experiences on their paths. Because ultimately, students at university really just kind of tend to gravitate towards what other people are doing. And if they see these role models who have been successful in the fields of entrepreneurship, startups, etc., that's really where they're going to also consider giving their attention to. So I think the UK can really do a bigger job of making those founder success stories much more well known.

And in the meantime, we're doing it. We together, right?

Well, yeah, I mean, I think one thing that's interesting you said there is like, you know, people coming back to speak at their university, and it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently where If you can teach someone something, right, chances are you, you know it pretty well at that point. It's a, it's a really good process of learning by actually teaching. And that's actually exactly what, you know, you're doing on a daily basis at EasyAids, like making these Instagram videos, making these, you know, little pockets of knowledge. And even though that's actually work for you and you're doing it for other people, like, is that really helping you develop yourself as, you know, even a developer?

Yeah, definitely. I'd say You know, when I make a video, for example, about a study hack or productivity hack or a tip, right, I feel like obviously I already know the tip, but it's the way of teaching it, right, a way to distill it into something that people actually teach. I think that there are too many professors who know their topic really well and they think they're able to teach it, but half of the lecture hall is asleep, sometimes more than half of the lecture hall is asleep because they're not even turning up, right, because the lecture is so boring. It's like an hour long, they expect you to sit through it, and technically you're a captive audience. Maybe they require you even to turn up, but actually having to make that into something where nobody is actually forced to watch it, right? They're on Instagram, or they're on TikTok, or they're on YouTube. They're just one swipe away from the next insanely entertaining video. If you can make something that people will watch when they could just be watching like an episode of South Park, or I don't know what's hot right now, it could be like, I don't know, Whatever stupid video is on TikTok or, or Instagram Reels or YouTube, if you can make it so that they don't click away, that's a massive achievement. So I'm not necessarily learning about the tip, right, but I'm learning about how to convey it in a way that actually captures people's imaginations and at the end of the day helps them to learn as well, because then that's what's valuable for the community. And that's what I continue to learn about on a daily basis.

Yeah, and on that community, are you finding that you're having to interact with them in a different way on each different platform, whether it's like your own platform, your app that you speak to them through, or LinkedIn, Instagram, but they all require different attention spans and personalities to manage.

Definitely, 100%. Yeah, mainly because I'd say when people are on different platforms, they're in a different mindset. So if we're interacting with people who are in the EazyA app live, they're really in learning mode, right? They want to learn, and we can be a bit more direct. We can basically tell people more about the technical nitty-gritty right up front, like even getting them to code stuff. If it is on TikTok, right, that's totally different. They're not even watching 5 seconds of the previous video. Like, average watch time is probably about 7 seconds for a particular video, might even be lower now. It's very, very different. You need to really have a very, very good hook to get people excited about the video. Whereas on LinkedIn, again, it's different, right? As you all know, people are there because they're looking for new opportunities, they're looking to learn, they may be looking to get recruited. And so people are again in a different mindset. So I'd say definitely, you know, when you're creating content for different platforms, you've got to have that in mind. You can't just put— people say that you can upload the same thing onto all these different platforms. In reality, it's very different just because people are in a different frame of mind when they're on each different platform.

Yeah, that's a great point. I think It's interesting with your, your hook, so to speak, on Instagram. It's something that I feel like as a student I maybe just missed out on this whole ChatGPT era where, I mean, I wish I had it earlier, but like, you're— it's very clever in that if, if you're like, you've got students that are scrolling through those, you know, the stupid TikToks or like, you know, very numbing content, and then all of a sudden like a cheap you know, a hack, like a life hack, a cheat sheet comes up, that's the kind of thing that you would, so your brain would pause to watch. And then what proceeds from there, like, you know, whether you use it or not, it's like less important, right? It's that 100% exists. Well done for doing that, I guess. Thank you.

No, it's, yeah, it was, it's very, very true. I think the interesting thing actually for me was, I think a lot of people don't know the story behind TikTok and how it was originally created. Obviously, like TikTok, I'm talking about the original one, which was basically Musical.ly and the idea that the founder had before then. So he basically started it off as an edtech app, right? And also, have you heard of that story where it was like starting off as basically education?

I didn't.

So it started off as essentially an educational app where people would upload videos and get and learn actual content off them. Obviously, he quickly realized that people don't necessarily want to sit through and watch lectures. And so that then became Musical.ly, which was like lip-syncing and dancing, and then, you know, got absorbed into TikTok. But it's always made me think, like, you know, in some ways TikTok was originally created, or what was previously before TikTok was originally created in order to teach people. And I feel like that is exactly the sort of medium that we can still tap into. That people at the end of the day do want to learn and they don't want to feel at the end of like watching TikTok for an hour that they haven't learned anything. So that's why a lot of the how-tos, the tutorials do really well, even if it's just like makeup tutorials or like, you know, how to make whatever, you know, and like, you know, cooking tutorials. People just want to learn and it can be satisfying, but you've got to make learning fun. And I think, you know, when we think about like TikTok versus learning, obviously I wouldn't categorize TikTok as being anywhere like close to university. But I feel like you can still get a lot if you follow the right people, as long as you've got the right creators who are, you know, giving you the right information as well. And I think that university could actually take a leaf out of TikTok's book and just be like, make something that people actually want to go to. Like, don't force people to come to lectures if the lecture's no good. You're not doing a good job, as opposed to the students being lazy.

Yeah, I mean, I think that story of TikTok is quite interesting because, you know, nobody can argue they've obviously done very well in terms of numbers or whatever, but I mean, it depends how you perceive your business. If you start off as an edtech and then you became lip-syncing, and then you, like, as a founder, like, personally, I think you'd lose a little bit of credibility to— or like, maybe you've lost your mission to why you were doing it. He was just going for like how to become the biggest social media platform, whereas like, I think you got— you guys have a clear mission statement and a why for what you're doing, what you're doing. I mean, is there some process of checking like the content that you're making is like aligned with the impact you're trying to make?

Yeah, definitely. So we typically, I guess, look at two metrics. Number one is for every challenge that we release, we track how many people have actually started that course. So if you go into the EazyApe app, which is available on iOS and Android stores, you can basically get straight into learning about pretty much any blockchain you want to learn about. So once people click on that, you know, homepage tile to select which blockchain they want to learn about, we track exactly how many people click on that. And then we track as well how many people actually get towards completing all of those challenges within that particular module. So for example, if you want to learn about Solana, you click on the Solana tile, which then gets logged in our backend. And then we also follow the user throughout the whole journey in those individual challenges. So we track completion rates as basically one of the main KPIs in addition to the numbers of people who are actually clicking on those different tiles. So obviously, you know, higher completion rate is better. And right now the completion rate for most of the challenges is 70+%. Sometimes, you know, even as high as 90+%, which is really good to see, obviously. And, you know, if you compare that with traditional MOOCs or different online courses, it's, you know, multiples higher. So I think that's something that we use just to track basically how we're doing relative to other online learning platforms. And because it's all short-form content, it's very much like TikTok in the sense that you can just literally hop on for a couple minutes, do some learning, and then hop off on your own time, as opposed to having to sit through a lecture or a long bootcamp, for example.

Yeah, and I'm curious, in that case you say that 70% always go on to finish it, And that's a very validating thing of your products and what you're doing, right? But there are different aspects to what you do at ECA, and I guess my question is, in a general scope, like, how people perceive ECA, what are the most validating things of your products and why you're doing it?

Definitely in terms of outcome, it's when we see somebody come out and basically very tangibly we can see what they've learned. So it could be, for example, people who then get recruited. It might be just an internship, it might be a full-time job, and they start working on literally the project that they were then, that they were learning about. So for example, if it's about a particular blockchain, maybe they started working for the actual blockchain themselves. And we've had people then who also gone to found startups, right? So it's like they've come, they've learned, they've learned, and they've learned about all the opportunities available, and then they started like a fintech, for example. A fintech startup, or they've started a Web3 startup, or they've started something that brings together Web3 and AI. That's the most validating thing for us. Like, we can talk as much as we want about, you know, the numbers, and at the end of the day, also like the completion rates. What's really, really tangible for us is all of the fact that all of that, it really does add up into something extremely meaningful and just shows that, you know, we're on our way to achieving that vision of getting those billion people actually learning about tech, because it's still like, we're obviously still just scratching the surface. And even in the world, like, we're just scratching the surface in terms of people who actually really understand technology. Like, most people, you know, just about know how to send like an Instagram message or a DM or an email. But, you know, as soon as you start getting into anything relatively technical, yeah, we can just see that there's so, so much room to grow.

Do you think everything technical is good for society? I mean, it's a bit of an existential question, but Obviously you're very heavily involved, but I guess one of the things that you're also educating people on is how to use it in the right way and not letting it become over-consuming or take away from other learnings that are still important outside of tech. What do you think about it in general?

Yeah, I think, you know, obviously technology as a concept is really important, but I think people don't always need to know why things happen behind the surface. And I think that's something that a lot of companies in the blockchain space currently are grappling with right now. Because they have really advanced technology and they really make it known that, you know, we have all this different technology available to people. But ultimately, they don't really explain why that technology is actually impacting people and why people should care about it. So I think, you know, what Apple does really well and what a lot of successful Web2 companies do really well in today's day and age, or just companies in general, is make their products really simple to use. You know, you don't have to know why the iPhone takes such good photos. You just know, okay, it has a great camera and that's all that the end user really cares about. And you don't need to know, you know, how does AirDrop work? You just know that you can send photos to someone else. So I think, you know, technology is obviously important and it really has tangible impacts on everyday lives. But it's not that people need to actually know how that technology works per se. Obviously in blockchain and Web3, we're educating people on that because it's still so nascent and people still need to build those use cases. But our goal is really to teach people so they can build things that are then easy to use. It's not, you know, we're just teaching people these things because it's cool for them to know. It's so that they can actually go on to found companies, they can go on to actually build long-lasting projects in different ecosystems.

You mentioned that goal there. Because the career space and even the tech space, there are such big problems within it and so many problems that could be solved. There is a temptation, I imagine, that, you know, you've done what you've done already, like, just in 2 years so, so well that you're like, oh, we could probably do the recruitment bit better than everyone else as well. Like, we could probably do this. And but then, you know, I mentioned earlier, like, you'd have to pick your niche. But I think in a business sense, and not like, you know, scaling too quickly or like, you know, losing what the— why you're doing it That's important. So, I mean, what's like the sort of 5-year, I mean, if there is one, you know, 5-year plan of EazyA? You say in numbers terms it's like that, a billion people consuming it, but is it, do you think it stays as just like purely sort of educational and enabling, or is it like actually like the whole shebang?

Yeah, we're definitely focused on the education part. I mean, there's just so much still to do, and we, you know, we're just laser-focused on doing this one thing extremely, extremely well. It's how we've been able to become the best at it as opposed to anybody else. And we've just, like, got this, you know, full funnel all the way, like, thinking about the whole, whole user journey. And, you know, I think that from the startups we've seen succeed as well, it's where actually people become laser-focused on one particular thing, and it means that literally nobody else can even, like, come close because they're focusing on one single thing. So obviously there's a ton to do, but, you know, as they say, like, it's about the things that you say no to. As opposed to the things that you say yes to, you know, that really make a difference. Like, you can't say yes to everything, you know, it's 90% saying no, and like the couple of percent of ideas that you really should do are the ones that, you know, you should just be laser, laser, laser focused on.

And to wrap up the episode, there's a question that I ask all my guests. When you first graduated from your respective universities, and started Eazy-A, you would have a certain idea of what success would look like to you in a career sense. What is it now? Like, what is your definition of success? You know, take maybe Eazy-A out, but just in general for yourself, what does a successful career look like to you? I'll start with Philip first.

Me first? Okay, pressure. Yeah, I would say, to be honest, it's changed a little bit over the years, as you rightly alluded to, right? When you graduate university, you might think it's one version of success, success. You know, when you flash forward to today, it's another version. And when you're studying at school, like, you know, I remember GCSEs were the definition of success, right? Or A-levels. It's like, if I get these GCSEs, if I get these A-levels, like, my life is, you know, I've completed life, right? And then you get to university, it's like, if I complete these exams, if I get a first, if I come first, I've completed life, right? I think, you know, for now, what I've really realized is that it's about working on something that you know, as you said, isn't just about numbers, it's about the real tangible impact. And, you know, we're lucky that we found this just amazing niche in a way where we're able to be making such a big impact on people's lives and actually to be able to see that and meet those people in real life, right? Previously, when we've been working on other startups, it's like you see impact, but number one, like, sometimes you don't get to meet the people in person. Like, you know, that's why we have these hackathons You know, number 2 as well, there isn't necessarily a clear progression, right? You mentioned social media. With social media, you have huge numbers, but it's like, is it— can you say that there's a net positive, right? And I think that we are just in this amazing niche where it's very, very clear that it is a net positive, right? It's like we were chatting with another founder the other day. It's like, you know, he was talking about AI and ChatGPT. You know, is it a net positive? But, you know, for social media, it's like, you know, with TikTok, are we actually better off having TikTok and having this entertainment, or would we be better off without it? And I think it's actually quite hard to tell. Whereas with ECA, you know, my definition of success is really just, you know, are we having an impact? Are we changing things? And are we actually a net positive in the world? Are we going to leave it at the end of, you know, not just beyond 10 years, but at the end of our lifetimes? Are we going to leave the world in a better place to how we originally started? And for me, like, you know, when I wake up every day and I see what we're doing, It's very, very clear that that's the case, and we're on the journey to just increasing that impact even more.

Yeah, I think, you know, building on that, really, it's about being remembered. So I think, you know, if people can really point to, you know, someone and say, okay, that person was, you know, the best scientist, you know, they found the cure for AIDS, for example, then obviously that person is hugely successful. If someone is, you know, the best surfer in the world, then you know, that person's obviously successful. So I think, you know, if you can be remembered in a certain field for doing something, then you are by definition successful because it means you've achieved the goal that you set out to do. Because, you know, you don't become the best at anything without a tremendous amount of work behind it. So I think for us, you know, it's about being remembered or even being known rather, if you're still alive, as the people who brought people into Web3. And so, you know, just as Tim Berners-Lee created the internet, brought everyone into the Web 1 or Web 2 space, we want to be the people who have been known to bring everyone into the Web 3 space and into blockchain as a sort of, you know, creating that gateway and that on-ramp. So I think, yeah, really, you know, success boils down to being known for something and actually being remembered for doing one particular thing.

Love it. Thanks so much, guys. Thanks so much.

Thank you very much, Peter Wood.

Cheers.