Rani Wynn, General Counsel @ LiveScoreGroup

Hi everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today we have Ronnie Wynn with us. She's the general counsel at LifeScore Group. Welcome Ronnie to the podcast.

Thanks Molly.

Great, let's just start straight away. Um, obviously now you are a general counsel at a large organization, but I'm sure back at university you didn't maybe really know what you were going to do. So can you take us back to the those days and explain a little bit what you were thinking your career was going to look like.

Yeah, yeah. I think like I've definitely fallen into this career and it's kind of like a slow process, like an evolution. Um, uh, when I started out at university, my first degree was very general, so I did an arts degree but I majored in sports media. I always loved sport, always, always. And I think if you have sort of a passion, then at least kind of angling towards that route is a good thing to do. And I thought, yeah, I want to work in like a sports kind of the sports area or the sports industry. So majored in sports media. And then my results from my equivalent of A-levels in Australia allowed me to add on a law degree to that. And so I just sort of tacked it on the end. Yeah, not really thinking that law was my future. And, you know, then you start studying and you get into it and you find it more and more interesting as you, as your tertiary career develops. And yeah, when I finished my law degree, instead of going the media route, sports media route, I started interning as a legal paralegal, law intern. And that took me firmly down kind of the legal practice route. And from there I qualified as a solicitor, and yeah, that's the very beginning of my career. So yeah, nice.

So I like, I imagine like sports and law are maybe a little bit at odds. Like you think like sports is more cool, creative, and then law is more serious. How did you know? Like, were you always very open to different disciplines, or like how did you realize that you couldn't combine maybe the two elements?

Yeah, that's so— that's actually really interesting because I didn't know that you could combine the two, really. I didn't even know that I could work in-house as a lawyer. And when we say in-house, that means within a corporate corporation or within industry. I assumed in my head, you know, lawyers were either in court or they were working at a big law firm. And actually, there's just so many careers that lawyers can do. And once you start practising as a lawyer, you realise, oh my gosh, all these different avenues. And I think my career has had like a series of like small things, like a butterfly effect. Where one small decision has actually had a really big impact. The first is that just adding law on, onto the end of my degree and doing an extra few years study, and then I became a lawyer. And I think the next major kind of turning point or milestone for me was I was working in private practice in a law firm in Sydney. My practice was mostly media law, but a lot of court work and a lot of defamation proceedings, privacy proceedings. And I was really burnt out from a big legal case. And my law firm sent me on secondment. And what secondment— I'm sure everyone knows what secondment means, but basically sent me to work in-house at one of their clients. And so for 6 months I went and worked for Unilever. Unilever is obviously a large manufacturing company and consumer goods. And I was like, Wow. You know, like I had no idea you could be a lawyer inside a company and really like help with business strategy, drive things forward in a totally different way. You weren't kind of seen as someone overruling or coming in and not really understanding the business. You knew the business. And so that was another like big milestone for me. And I thought, no, I want to work as an in-house lawyer going forward.

Um, yeah, yeah, actually this is interesting because I think like as a law student, often the first thing you think of, like, I'm gonna just work for a big law firm, and it's usually you deal with like external clients.

Exactly.

Can you explain a little bit more, like, what does it mean to work in-house versus like as a company that gets hired? Yeah, solve a case or work on a case.

Yeah, I think, um, the, the key difference is as an in-house lawyer, you are a business person as well. You are predominantly— you have to wear two hats. You're an advisor, and that's obviously your first job, um, is your, your, uh, responsibilities to the law and your ethical obligation to the law. But your second hat, and it's a huge hat, is your business and commercial kind of brain and your strategy brain. And so you are an employee of the company and you want the best for the company, um, and so it's just a really different way of working. And I think you have I'm a very commercial lawyer. I will always try and find a solution to get things done, whereas external lawyers just operate differently. They're often very academic. They think quite differently in the way that they advise, you know, on deals or structures or, or the way businesses operate. So it's almost, it's almost two different vocations. And I think it takes time as well. Like, I've been an in-house lawyer now for over 10 years. And I think, you know, it takes a long time to kind of really become a commercial strategist or a business strategist. Yeah.

Yeah. Almost you have a bit of more consulting role within the business.

Yeah.

Figure out strategy. Interesting. And so you were working at Unilever, obviously, which is not sports.

Not sports. They do sponsor quite a few sports.

Exactly. Yeah. So then how, how, how did you end up in the UK and working for Livescore Group? You kind of went back to sports.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah.

So while I was, I can't remember whether it was while I was at Unilever, but in any event, early, early in my career, potentially before I went on secondment, I also did my master's. And I did my master's specializing in sports law, really. And so that's when I was like, okay, I really want to go down this route. Came back from secondment to my law firm and thought, nope, no, no, I've seen the good life. Yeah, exactly. I've seen the other side and decided to pack up my life and moved to London. I was lucky enough to have grandparents that were British, and so I had a different type of visa, made it very easy to work in London. Australian lawyers don't need to requalify, they can just practice in the UK system. And so on my way over, literally on a boat in Croatia, I got offered a job to start work at Sky. So I went from tiny little Australian kind of legal environment to this huge big behemoth of a media organization, which was just humongous. So that was a big learning curve for me. And also under, you know, starting to learn UK laws, the way that commercial operations worked in the UK. And while I was there, even though I wasn't in the Sky Sports team, I managed to do a little bit of Sky iSports work. And I also worked a little bit on the sale of Sky Bet as well. So it's just like dabbling a little bit in terms of sports and betting. And then from there, after, after Sky, I went and worked at Freeview. So the UK's free-to-air platform, it's now called Everyone TV. And that was again, like an amazing experience. I was the sole counsel there. So just me for a couple of years, learning on the job and massive, you know, massive learning curve, managing all sorts of different things. It was a joint venture between BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky, and Archiva, which is an infrastructure company. And that was there for a few years. As I said, huge amount of learning, and we grew out my team by the end. So I was head of legal by the end. And at that point, I thought, okay, this is the time to make make the move, try and make the move into sport. And I moved across to a company at that time was called Gamesys. And it was just, I think with careers, and this is, I'm sure everyone will say this when they're quite senior in their career, sometimes it is just luck. And as I said, like the butterfly effect, and you shouldn't diminish the work that you do or the you know, the, the practice you put in and then the hours you commit and the grind, you know, because that stuff's incredibly important. And I did graft and grind and learn and, and work really hard. But also there's been an element of luck and timing. So I joined Gamesys, and as luck would have it, within a couple of months of me joining Gamesys, they decided to sell off their entire sports division. And sorry, they decided to sell off the majority of their company, leave behind their sports division, and the sports division rebranded as LiveScore Group. And so I went from being a senior lawyer at Gamesys to having the great fortune of becoming head of legal of the LiveScore Group sports division, which has grown. Yeah, from 2019 when that transaction occurred, we were $5 million in revenues and today we're around $200 million plus in revenue. So it's massive rapid growth. In the last few years.

Yeah, I think like when you're more senior, like, I think obviously there's an element of luck, but you also have the experience that, you know, as like you can back up your skills for sure. Um, can you think back to like when you were younger, how did, how did it feel to like navigate your career and just the decision that you were making? Because I think maybe at a senior level it feels very different and you think a bit more strategically, but maybe back in Australia when you were young, what did you struggle with? Like making the right decision, meeting the right people, networking. Do you have memories of that?

It's so hard, isn't it? I think that you, um, I think that you don't know whether you've made a good or bad decision until sometimes years later. Like sometimes it takes such a lot of like personal growth and reflection and development to even know, wow, that was a pivotal moment in my career or my life, or something major happened, um, and I I didn't even know at the time that it was so major. Um, but I think I did do a lot, you know, and I still to this day do a lot of weighing up. There's a lot of pros and cons lists in my notebooks if you go through them for the last 15 years, you know. It— I, I really think, um, finding a passion or your passion, um, is, is really critical. And I don't want to put pressure on people thinking, oh my God, now I have to go out and find my passion, like, what's my passion? I think it's a natural, organic thing. But if you can realize what you are passionate about— and there's lots of work you can do to find, find your passion. You can do values kind of mapping, you can work with, you know, coaches or counselors to try and understand where your passions lie or your values lie. And I think if you can narrow that down to a field or an area or an industry or even something more minute than that, then it does give you like drive and focus. And that's what it was for me in terms of the sports law direction. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you definitely have found your field of sports media and betting.

Yeah.

Can you share like what sort of cases or problems are you working on as a general counsel or as a legal department in-house?

Yeah, this is the big one for in-house counsel. And I would say this for anyone who's considering in-house legal work, you are a generalist. You are— you might have some areas of specific kind of expertise, but ultimately, especially in quite a big company, you are going to be asked to advise on everything. So my day can be betting regulations in the Netherlands, followed by a transaction, you know, buying or selling an asset in the UK. Followed by advertising laws in Nigeria, followed by employee rights in Ireland. So you often— I don't say surface level kind of legal. You're often like, you know, a mid, medium amount of knowledge on so many things and not necessarily the super deep knowledge because you might have to go out to experts for that, you know, external counsel. And that's where external counsel value comes in. But you have to know loads about lots. Mm-hmm. And that— and you have to move quickly at pace, you know, because the business doesn't stop. And so it's about having confidence in your ability to communicate and decision make, I think, is key for in-house counsel.

Yeah, I imagine like betting law in Nigeria sounds very expensive.

It is so specific.

Yeah. Do a lot of research as well, I imagine. Nice. And like for— I mean, obviously you came over from Australia to the UK. But for students that are in the UK, I always imagine anything media and sports is a very competitive industry, and there are not as many opportunities maybe as elsewhere. So how would you say someone who is young can navigate that field if they want to have a career, be it legal or not, in sports media?

Yeah.

What advice would you give?

The media and sports sectors are incredibly competitive. It's— it is difficult. I'm not going to lie. I think— I think there's a couple of ways to have an edge. I think networking and sort of putting your hand up for things that any opportunity that comes to you or that you go and find within those sectors. I know that's easier said than done. And often people aren't going to respond to knocking on doors. Times have changed. You know, I get loads, hundreds of LinkedIn messages, you know, cold messages. I think the other thing is your vocation. So if you want to work in a sports industry or a media industry, then you need to hone your craft and, you know, take those extra courses, you know, finesse your knowledge so that you at interview or within your CV will have the edge. You know, you will be the best. And then it's just a matter of kind of growing your career from there. So Yeah, as I said, I went off my own back at nights, did my master's in law, in sports law. That's an incredible— that's an incredibly big thing to take on when I was also working all hours at a law firm, busy law firm, you know. So it takes sacrifice for sure. But yeah, if you say yes to opportunities and hone your craft, I think.

Yeah. And I think sports law is also quite specific. I've actually never heard of anyone studying that.

So yeah, I was so lucky actually. I was so lucky. There's one one university that offered this particular course, and it happened to be in Sydney where I was working.

So yeah, again, yeah, like, yeah, very small decisions that you make that then end up exactly, um, working out later. Nice. So I think, like, question about Livescore, because I, um, most people probably know it as just an app on their phone where they check, like, sports results.

Yes.

Um, but I think the organization is much bigger than, like, the average person would know.

Yeah.

So can you explain a little bit what does LiveScore Group do? And then what sort of different career avenues would there be for young people in an organization like that?

Yeah, definitely. So LiveScore Group is, as you say, our probably best known product is LiveScore. LiveScore, as you say, a results media content app, global app, you know, over 50 million users worldwide, regular users. In addition to LiveScore, we also have betting and gambling products. So we're live in 4 jurisdictions and we have 2 different brands, LiveScore Bet, which is, as you can think of, it's kind of like not an add-on, but it's within the system of LiveScore. It's kind of a seamless integration if you are someone who also wants to bet. And then we also have Virgin Bet, which is a, you know, a different brand. We license the master brand from Virgin and we run Virgin Bet in the UK. We're also going to be launching it in South Africa next year. So yeah, it's betting, gambling, sports, sports content, and it is global. We're in, you know, across Africa and Europe, but the actual LiveScore app is used elsewhere, you know, everywhere in the world, basically. So in terms of different careers for young people within the organization, software development, sales, product, product innovation, research, legal, finance, HR, HR, PR, marketing, brand, you know, technology, AI, all different, you know, so vast the opportunities within that kind of technology. We are a technology organization, you know, it is, it's a tech product. And then for the betting side of the business, there's trading and mathematicians, algorithms that we have to build. There's lots of compliance you know, protecting our customers, people, sports writers, you know, sports content, social media managers. Honestly, it's, it's a vast, vast lot of opportunities, actually. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's, that's great because I think when you think about it like that, there's so many different roles that you can have.

Yeah.

You have a legal career, right, in, in that industry, but, or in that organization. And then there's obviously like PR, social media marketing, all like embedded in one.

Designers. Yeah.

Nice. So, um, is there for like young, um, people like graduates, could you go straight away into an organization like that? Or what sort of the avenues, um, to get into a group, an organization like Livescore Group? Or would you say you have like higher chances working for a small organization first, or other organizations like you did, and then you end up there?

Yeah, I think it's a real mixture. So Livescore, we do, um, we take graduates for sure in different, in different kinds of roles. Um, I forgot customer service. Oh my gosh, we have huge customer service teams as well up in Stoke. So we do take graduates across lots of different roles. We have an apprenticeship scheme that we're in, an apprenticeship scheme with the government as well. So we have some apprentices. We work with an organization called the Talent Tap, and what the Talent Tap does, um, it basically goes and works with some of— it's a social mobility scheme really, and it works with some university students or school leavers in really remote parts of the UK and gives them opportunities in cities that they might not ordinarily have. So we do internships with the Talent Tap, and then, and then it's just about the level of the role. So, you know, we've got junior roles to hire and then we've got very senior roles to hire. So you can come into the organisation at sort of any point in your career. In terms of lawyers or legal professionals or legal students that are listening, We have an internal training program, so traineeships are part of, a part of the steps that you need to take to become a lawyer in the UK, uh, to practice. And you can go a couple of different routes now, and we actually work with an external provider called Accutrainee who manages all the administration and allows for trainees to be in my team. And then after a couple of years, they graduate into as a lawyer into my team. So that's once they've finished their studies. So yeah, and I think that we're not the only team within the business that has these kinds of like relationships in terms of graduate to, you know, practicing employee.

Yeah, I think it reminds me a little bit of an interview recently that with someone from the aviation industry, and then you sort of also realize like a very like niche thing has so many different roles that you can in theory work in. And I think with sports media, it's like very similar. You can be like HR, legal.

Yeah.

Social media, customer service. Whether it's branding, like wherever you— your passion falls. Exactly.

I think that's the thing, like you can find your passion in your vocation. Like I could just be super passionate about being a lawyer, right? Um, or you can find your, your passion in the industry.

Yeah.

Um, and, and it's kind of like whether you marry up the two, or like, you know, there's people in my team who are keen on sport, but it's not their life, you know. But they actually really love, you know, negotiating media rights deals. And so that's what they do. And so it's like, you have to, I guess there's so many opportunities out there, but also it's, you got to find them. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's like that you get this mix of people like.

Exactly.

Yeah, definitely. Nice. So for yourself, like, or personally for someone who's a general counsel, where do you see a career sort of going from, from here? Obviously you already have quite a senior role, but someone who is a general counsel, like, do you stay there for the rest of your life? Or like, what sort of like— does anything come after?

Oh my gosh, existential. Yeah, my employer might be listening. No, I'm joking. Um, you know what, I have no plans to move. And I actually have to say this to senior people in my team as well, you know. I want, I want everyone in my team to follow their dreams, be successful, um, you know, get what they want out of their life. And so that is the one thing about in-house roles. The seniority at the top, it's quite hard to— there's a bit of a ceiling, right? If I— if your general counsel is not going anywhere, then you've got nowhere to move. You know, you can only get so high. And I don't have any plans to move. So, you know, the senior people in my team, I have to say to them, if there is an opportunity that screams to you, like, I can— I don't— I do not begrudge you to go for it. Yeah. So yeah, I have no plans to move. Livescore Group's my my baby. Yeah, I feel like I've really grown with it. I love the people, I love the things that we're doing, and I'm sure we'll get on to that. But yeah, I love the things that we're doing as an organization. I think we're, you know, I think it's just an amazing place to be. So yeah, for me, this is my— this is— I feel like I've been very lucky to kind of reach a pinnacle relatively early in my career. And I think there's so much growth within this organization and potential. That like every day my, my, my role grows anyway. So I'd never feel stagnated. If I ever felt stagnated or I felt bored, it would be time for me to look elsewhere. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's maybe the beauty of having a more generalist role is that like new challenges and tasks come up anyway. And let's say you're expanding into South Africa and then you know more topics are going to come up there and you can develop more expertise as you go. Nice. Amazing. So yeah, I think like My last question would be for you, like, looking back, like, from when you started to, like, now, what sort of has been, like, a defining definition for you of what success means, like, personally? I know we just touched upon it a little bit. And yeah, any, like, definitely key takeaways that you, you have from, like, all these years of working, I guess, as an in-house lawyer that you would give to students, like, studying law?

I definitely feel so proud of where Liveschool, the things that we've done at Liveschool Group in the last couple of years, and there's been a little bit of press about it, but basically I think I came back from maternity leave. I had a very short maternity leave. It wasn't meant to be so short, but it ended up being very short. And I felt really a bit discombobulated and I wanted to do something to kind of bring women together more together in the business. And so we created an internal women's network and we went about really trying to foster change within the organization, which is predominantly men. At that, at that time it was around 80% men. And I really wanted to make inroads into getting more women into the industry and the organization. And so we as a collective, this internal group, changed all of our policies and our hiring processes and the way we spoke about things and the way we present to industry and everything. And we have really moved the dial in terms of getting more gender diversity into the business. So that's something I'm very proud of and very passionate about. And I think Livescore Group's done an amazing job of supporting me in that and, and changing the way that we think. I know I'm also, I'm really proud of moving country, you know, like I think people who are expats, yeah, obviously probably feel, can feel this in their soul, but it is a huge thing to always live a little bit out of your comfort zone, you know. And your heart will always be in two places. And I've got a lot of people that I love in Australia and a lot of people that I love in the UK, and I never quite feel whole. Um, but at the same time, I just try and flip it and feel positive that I've got so much in so many places, you know. Yeah, citizen of the world. And so I think I think they've been big things that I'm kind of personally proud of, um, in terms of that decision to move to the UK. My career straddles, you know, stratospheric— is that the word? Had a super incline, you know, it was a massive amount of growth. Um, so career-wise, that was such a pivotal move for me, um, even though it impacted me personally. So yeah, I think there's been a few things, but I I think where I am now, I'm incredibly positive and happy and very proud. Yeah.

Nice. Actually, that's an interesting point to touch on, like the hiring strategy that you have and like including more women into like sports media or like your organization. Obviously, I'm a woman as well, and I think there are industries that you may be shy—

Betting too.

—a little bit away, more away as a woman. Like, how do you sort of look at your own organization as a woman in it? Like, do you have sort of an explanation for why there's not a lot of women in it? What you can sort of do for it? I know you said you're like very passionate about it in your organization. What have you sort of done to change it a little bit, especially attracting younger women as well?

Yeah, I think betting, gambling, and sport are historically and still today unattractive, often unattractive industries to women. I think they've got a bad reputation and they've probably had a bad reputation for a reason. I think they've been, you know, been quite closed and it's been a bit of an old boys' network traditionally. And also, as I said, we're a tech company and tech roles do just skew naturally, very naturally to men in terms of software development, etc. So there's some things that are out of— a little bit out of control, but there are some things you can definitely control. And so in terms of our hiring practices, the kinds of things that we've changed. You know, we gender neutralized all of our job descriptions. We don't pay any attention to gaps in CVs because we know they're often related to caring, you know, roles. We make sure we have women on every interview panel. We have done a complete rewrite of all of our policies. So, you know, much more enhanced family leave, menopause policy, period policy, fertility policy, lots of things that affect women and men and families and people who identify as women. So we've just done a lot of work to make sure we're speaking to a much wider audience. And I think I've said, I've said this before on, on another podcast, like I actually am not going for 50/50 gender parity. What I'm, what I want is the best people. And you only have the best people when you're getting a big pool to draw from. And you're only going to have that big pool if you're speaking to everyone, you know, and you're attractive to everyone. And you don't want people to be daunted to work in gambling or sport because they think, oh God, you know, men's club, you know, I'm going to feel uncomfortable there. So that's, that's what we're doing to change it. And the culture within LiveScore has changed. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's not really about hitting that exact 50/50, but more about trying to think, okay, the people that are also already here, like, right, what can we also do for them? Exactly. And they're here, and then like new people that come, and I think that's great. And I think as a young person, if you feel like the organization also speaks more to you and like that branding is sort of like, and the company culture like can accommodate you, then I think you are automatically a bit more drawn into this organization. You feel more comfortable applying as well. So I completely— yeah, good.

I completely agree. It's word of mouth as well. Women tend to have more women in their network, right? So you want the women in the organization to be saying this is a great place to work, you know. So yeah, it's osmosis.

Yeah, that's how it happens. Great. So very, very last question. We ask this to every single guest who comes in, and it's very broad question, but how would you define success, and has that definition changed for you as well across your career?

Oh gosh, that is a very broad question. Um, I think success is actually mostly intrinsic I think you can get value from— you obviously get value from absorbing other people's views of you, and it's good for your confidence. And promotions and recognition and words of affirmation and feeling valued is incredibly important to building an idea of success. But really, you'll only know if you feel successful, and success success doesn't have to be climbing the corporate ladder. Um, if every— if that was success to everyone, the world would be crazy, you know. No, it's too competitive and it wouldn't work. Success has to be you feeling like you've achieved your, you know, what you wanted to get out of life. And also, ebbs and flows. There are days you won't feel successful, you know. There are hard times. No one feels positive about about their life all the time. But I think overall, looking back, it's like, yeah, I am proud of myself, or I, I am happy with where I'm at, um, is a, is a marker of success. So yeah, I think people put too much pressure on themselves, and I just say to, to young people particularly, it will, it will work out. Like, it will find a way, and you don't have to kind of just, uh, have all these markers of expectation and think that will be what is success, you know, or think that that will make you happy. It, it, it's an iterative and intrinsic process. Yeah, for sure.

I think like as a young person, maybe now even more, because you see so many really successful people at a young age on social media, and then you feel— or LinkedIn even— it's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. I think once you age, you realize a little bit. Okay, I can relax. And definitely also been the case for me. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been lovely speaking to you.

Thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. Yeah, I've loved it. Have it here. Perfect.