Reese Wong, Global Shaper @ World Economic Forum

Rhys, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your career journey so far. I mean, you're different to any of the other guests that we've had on, really. You're 20 years old and you've had over 30 work experiences already, so that's crazy. So just give us a quick run-through of your background and, yeah, how you've progressed through your career so far.

Yeah, so yeah, hi everyone, my name is Rhys. I was born and raised in Hong Kong. Moved here to London just a year ago, and I think I started my career journey even maybe like 4 or 5 years ago now, even back in high school where, you know, I was very academically oriented, but I felt boxed in. So I did an internship at like age 15 at a mental health charity. And at that point I was like, wow, this idea of project-based learning, this idea of experiential learning, learning by doing, really attracted to that. So from that, I built a nonprofit organization in Hong Kong that was all about project-based learning. So I ran that for 4 years now, stepped back as an advisor, but that basically catalyzed, I think, my sort of journey both in sort of social impact, entrepreneurship, but also really personal development. 'Cause I think that opened so many doors to meet amazing people, but also for me to reflect what do I want about, what do I want from my own career and how do I really like get more opportunities as well. So that was really helpful.

Yeah.

And now at the LSE doing a bunch of things, but it's all sorts of different projects that, yeah, I would love to talk more about later.

Yeah, so you, you say you kind of found out that you're interested, interested in this at the age of 15, but obviously you've still got your education and studies to do. How have you been balancing this desire, very passionate to be progressing in your career, with like actually your learnings and make sure you get your education done?

Yeah, and I think for every sort of entrepreneur, every person who wants to work on projects, that's like that big ephemeral question, right? It's like, what's the value of that university education? I think I think about that every day, but I think it's still important just because of the network you get at university, but also just societies as well. So I think by just attending and being in that university network, that already opens the door. You have that student status. I think even academically, so I study international relations, which is I think pretty rare for someone who's like very into business and entrepreneurship. But I think that gives a bit of contrast. It's much more essay-based, it's much more theory-based. It's quite a bit different from what I do day to day as well. So I enjoy it. So I— but I'd say I spent probably only 20% of my time on my degree on like academic components. But I think for this year moving forward, I'm trying to spend more of it just to get my ROI in terms of I'm paying international fees, I want to make my money's worth as well.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the project you're working on right now. It's all about building informal networking, making it a bit more accessible, which is something that I really believe in as well, because I think when you hear the word networking, it's confusing what that actually means in practice. Everybody wants to do it, everyone wants to meet new people, but it's like, oh, How do you even go about doing it? Do you approach people on LinkedIn? Do you go to networking events? And if you do go to networking events, how do you even start a conversation that's gonna be worthwhile and meaningful? So I mean, yeah, just tell us a little bit about your company.

Yeah. So yeah, when I arrived at LSE, again, it's a great network, strong alumni network as well. But one thing I noticed was there's a lack of a campus community, right? The minute people come in for freshers, people break off into social cliques. And when I ask people who graduate, how many percent of people do they know on their own program? They tell me maybe 20%. And I ask like, how many people would you be willing or comfortable to reach out to? And they tell me maybe like 5 people, 10 people. And I think that's such a shame, right? Because so much of the value of university is that network. They're missing out. So I set off to solve these design questions. It's like, how do you build an interconnected campus community? And now I think what we're trying to build is this idea of How do you reduce the barriers for reaching out? How do you give people an excuse to reach out? And it's, I've been again, big networking events, parties. The issue of these is that again, maybe if it's a good event, you can talk to like 5, 10 people at most, right? You're like moving around the room trying to talk to everyone. But these events are, I think, generally very ineffective. People break off into little groups. You're only able to get so much out of it. So I think even of all the communities I'm in as well, massive group chats, lots of different things going on, but there are rarely ever these triggers or again, these excuses to gather. So we're launching end of this month Micro Meetup, and our goal is basically to give you an excuse to reach out through these small, spontaneous, surprising micro events. So I ran like big events before, but I realized actually these small, smaller events, just like 3 to 5 people, these like small-scale activations actually work out super well because you're able to get to know the people better. You're able to form bonds. So the idea is 3 to 5 people, let's say on a Wednesday afternoon, you have like nothing to do, right? Say within an hour you could post on our platform, say, who wants to go to a pub? Who wants to try out this new restaurant? And that will let you, I think, rapidly meet new people. But also for a community like an LLC, you're able to rapidly build these like interconnections, which we think again is gonna be so valuable.

Yeah, it is clear that through all the experiences that you've done, that you're clearly like very passionate about different areas of careers and looking into all those different ones. But as it happens, what you're doing right now, I mean, it's really fueled by a frustration, really. And, you know, obviously you're passionate about network and everything, but the problem you're actually trying to solve, your, your main motivation is that what the solution you want doesn't exist, and that's what you're trying to do better. Like, how, how do you think that has contributed to your desire to keep doing this company and will you know, this new learning that you've made that maybe the frustration element is more important than the passion. How are you gonna utilize that going forwards in your career?

Yeah, I think that's sort of guided basically everything I do in a way. And I think that's a great way to really find a problem to solve as well. It's like you're frustrated by it, it's something you face every day, you wanna get rid of this problem, right? And I think that's the core of getting more users, right? You have to help solve their problems, solve or address their frustration. And assess like how frustrated are they, right? How much are they willing to pay, for example? So for me, even back like 4 or 5 years ago for this nonprofit, it was the same sort of frustration. There's a lack of a space for project-based learning for this sort of discussion around sustainable development or social issues. And again, just wanted to solve that, build that network, build that organization. And I think same here in this case, as a fresher arriving on campus last year, saw the sort of, again, lack of a community. Wanted a community, so therefore I'm like trying to go solve it. I think in the future as well, a lot of the venture ideas I have are always like very personal to me just because A, it's easier to sort of understand the pain points, understand what the customer would want, but also it's easier in terms of go-to-market, right? So for example, at the LSE or at these London universities, I have a strong network or I have these different, I run these freshers pages as well. Which gives me easy access to do these user interviews, validate the idea further, but even to launch. And I think this is the same mentality I'll be using going forwards for other ventures, but for my career as well. It's like, what's that frustration? How can I sort of resolve it? And how do I solve more problems, basically?

Yeah. And obviously this is something that I've been learning recently is that you need to utilize while you're being young not just to try new things, but that naivety and ambition to learn, like, that's infectious, and that's what will make people give you that opportunity. And it's clear that you've had that awareness from a very young age. Yeah, I mean, what would be some advice to people in actually, you know, gaining that mentality that, you know, there's all these, like, social pressures and different things that will stop you from, you know, maybe talking about your career in the early stages of university, but ultimately I I think it's fair to say that every person wants to do well in their career. It's just some people find it harder to actually get into that mindset.

Yeah. I think one, two pieces of advice. One is like, say yes to more things and always have this sort of like scout mindset. And what I mean by that is like, always be on the lookout for like new opportunities. 'Cause I think as a lot of people who like build know, it's like, you never know, like what's that like serendipitous encounter, right? Where it's like, oh, it's a new, just like one random encounter leads to like a whole new partnership, right? Or sponsor. And I think students maybe sometimes they may be more tunnel vision. They're like, okay, I only have this one goal, or I just want to study or focus on my academics that closes them off a lot of things. Whereas I think for the past few years, my mentality has always been to say yes to as many things. I have like 4 or 5 coffee chats a week, even if I don't see like an immediate ROI or like immediate reason why I should even talk to them. It's like you never know what may come down, like, in the, in down the line. And it's just this mentality of building a network. So I think reframing that mindset, it's like you can do things that aren't scalable, you can do things that may not immediately benefit you, but just because you make these connections and make these links, they're gonna benefit you down the line. So it's like getting in that mindset. And to your point about, I think, talking about careers, I think this is the thing that I think more people should be focusing on as well. It's this idea that a lot of people don't like sort of self-promotion or don't like, you know, talking about themselves, right? They prefer doing it. I really like this framework and it came across where it's like, how do you increase your like surface area of luck, right? A great framework. And it's basically this like axis where one axis is like how good you are at what you do, but the other axis is like how good you are communicating what you do. I think by posting content or just sharing, you automatically maximize the amount of other opportunities you can get. And I think students are doing this more and more now. You see so many people on like LinkedIn, a lot more like even high school students are like, hey, I can be proud about my career journey. I can be proud about trying to figure things out. And by posting or sharing about my wins or just like things I've been thinking about, I can meet new people, new opportunities, and actually help like build that my career growth like way faster. So I think, yeah, two pieces of advice there.

Yeah. And that all kind of comes under the scope of personal branding, right? And on LinkedIn, I mean, on first, uh, first viewing your profile, you'll see, you know, FutureMinds, uh, award and, and all these different experiences and everything, but What do you actually, what are you trying to make your personal brand? Because, you know, starting as you mean to go on is very important. And like, because you've been doing this so young, you're essentially giving yourself a head start on that personal branding journey. But yeah, what is your personal brand as of right now, would you say?

Yeah, I think core of it right now is like community building. So I think the through line you see across all of my experiences is they're very like people-oriented. So even right now for Micromeetup, even though we're a tech platform, the core of it is like we're solving for how do you build strong interconnected communities? So for my other roles as well, be that for our Entrepreneur Society at LSE or for World Economic Forum Global Shapers, it's still solving sort of similar problems. It's like, how do you bring people together? How do you maximize the value of being in a community? So I think that's what I'm trying to really hone in on is like communities, gatherings, how do you build effective sort of groups as well? I think that's like a big through line, but also social impact broadly. I think I want the things I do to have some sort of meaning or some sort of like broader vision or goals. It's not doing things for the sake of doing things. There's like a wider social good aspect to it. So I think those are the two keywords that I think come to mind right now.

Yeah. And let's hone in on some of those experiences that you've had and maybe which ones were most formative to you, um, and at which stage, but Yeah. What, so you said your first one was just a charity involvement. Just give us a quick run through of, of how you made your next decision and also when you knew it was time to move on to your next charity.

Yeah, that's a great question. So yeah, for context, uh, Bank of Hong Kong, yeah, launched, scaled this youth-led nonprofit, um, that was about project-based learning. So it's called Is It HK. So ran that for 3 years and we got it to 300 volunteers across 80 schools. One of the largest youth-led nonprofits in Hong Kong. That opened the doors for a lot of what I do now in terms of like the networks I'm in, a lot of the visibility as well. But up to a certain point, I was in my gap year actually, and I was spending a bit of that time focusing on like, how do I create a strong succession strategy? So a lot of people in high school, they launch projects that don't really continue on. There's no like succession strategy. It's just purely for university apps. And that's really, again, a loss of value because you miss out on bringing that impact to university. So I spent part of my gap year figuring out how do I really scale that organization to a level that I can keep going and self-sustaining. So yeah, we devised like a whole succession strategy, got like a new president on board as well. But I knew at that point I was ready to move on because, well, firstly I was moving to London, so it's harder to really manage and really do a lot of the day-to-day work. but also I wanted to solve like another problem. I think the nonprofit and charity model is great in terms of like building large volunteer networks, but it's not as scalable. And I had a lot of, I think, difficulty really figuring out how do I turn it into something that is self-sustaining financially and something that really has that momentum for rapid growth. So I think it was good at what its purpose was really, right? As a way to get students involved in building projects, be that magazines, podcasts, all the way to like actual events that gathered these like changemakers. But I was like, you know what, I think it's ready to hand the baton, but let the organization continue doing the great work. So I'm still on board as an advisor, but again, the impact from that organization has opened so many doors for me now where it's like, I think that was like this really big formative experience for me to say, hey, you know, reaching out to new people, sharing about my experiences. So yeah, I think that was a big sort of pivotal, like, moment in my sort of early years. Yeah, yeah.

I wonder for people like yourself— I mean, me personally, like, I've had my own journey with this idea of what working hard actually means. I mean, the outside looking in, it just seems like you've maybe— you've always been working hard and it's almost ingrained within you, but If you look at myself, you might see UCL and doing different companies and posting stuff on LinkedIn, but there are definitely days and periods where I'm just like, God, I'm not doing as much work as I want. Or if it's academics and maybe a module specifically where I'm like, I just can't put my time to this, can't work hard. Does working hard come naturally to you or did you have to really work on that?

Yeah. I mean, funny story, even yesterday, maybe it was because of the heat, but I really had that moment of self-doubt as well. I was just like, you know, in my room, sort of like there's like 10 different emails coming in, like there's so many pieces of different work. And I was like, you know what, I just wanna like take a break right now, take a shower, just like relax. I have these like moments as well where like I'm not feeling as productive. That's something I'm trying to optimize for as well. But I'd say I wouldn't necessarily, obviously sort of work hard and put in the time, for all these projects, but I think it's really still a skill that I'm, I'm bu— working on and building. I think it doesn't really, I think I have the motivation and I have ambition, but I think consistency is actually still something I'm working on. So it doesn't come to me as naturally maybe as other people. So it's like really trying to figure out, okay, can I time block to work and focus on a specific project? Can I really like delegate more so I can be more effective in what I do? So I'd say it's definitely still a learning curve, but I think it's, I've gotten better at it. But I also think besides working hard, I think that's exactly what you said. What does that even mean? I think there's also that misconception. It means, you know, putting in like 10, 12, 20 hours a day when I think a lot of it is really making smart decisions that have like, you know, this like exponential effect. So it's like this, like what, 20/80 principle, right? It's like, 80% of the outcomes can actually come from 20% of the inputs. So it's really figuring out what you should be prioritizing and how those activities can lead to greater returns. So I think that's a strategy I've been focusing on a lot as well. It's like instead of trying to just do one thing for 20 hours, it's figuring out, okay, should I be spending 20 hours on that or should I be spending maybe 5 hours, get a lot of the ROI, get a lot of the impact and do other things as well. So I think that's helped me more than say just simply sitting down than like doing one thing for 20 hours, which I think would make me burn out quite quickly.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think from my personal experience, I felt quite behind in terms of my career by the time I reached my final year compared to the other people at UCL. And I thought, you know, doing the podcast and What's To and Graduate Guide, like there was a point where I felt, God, am I bored? My parents are questioning, are you doing too much? Are you gonna like let those 2 years of education slip and not, you know, get a 2:1 or anything? And I actually think that doing stuff like the podcast, and it really fueled my, like, efficiency of working on, you know, studies that maybe I'm less, like, directly interested in. And, like, I don't know, giving yourself, like, that allotment of time throughout a day, it kind of becomes more automated, that, like, working hard and ambitious, like, nature. So yeah, I mean, obviously with you the main thing you're working on right now is this community-based socializing and you're actually having fun and really feel like you've been fulfilled at the same time. So I mean, when you started this, how much did that come into your thought process?

Yeah, I think, I think that's what helps me get a lot of things done as well. It's like, I think this is the case in many entrepreneurs, it's like an advice people give. You have to really enjoy what you're doing so it doesn't feel like work. You know, I've seen people who like do interviews, they say, you know, the best response I want for someone in my team is like when they ask a question about work-life balance, they say, well, you know, work and life to me are really the same. And it's a rare sort of thing to like enjoy work that much. But I think if you found that problem you wanna solve, or in my case it was like frustration, then you're really sort of motivated in a different way. You don't consider it the same way as, okay, like doing a 9 to 5, or doing something that, you know, you're just doing for the sake of it. So I think that has helped a lot. It's like, you know, something I have like ownership over, something I have like, I see the vision translate into like reality and yeah, it doesn't really feel like work. So that helps a lot.

Yeah. And in terms of like actually keeping your own mental right, because you know, you can talk about everything you want about career and everything, but Given that this episode is of a current student and not someone speaking retrospectively, like, you're actually actively trying to juggle a lot of things and yet still socialize, still do the sport you want, still like do the passions that have no contribution to your career. I mean, are you struggling to juggle that right now? And if so, what learnings have you made so far?

Yeah, I'd say that's definitely a struggle. So I'm at a point where I like As I said previously, my mentality was to say yes to everything. I now start to become slightly more selective just because if I don't, then I'll be taking on too much that I can't simply focus or give these projects the right amount of time or dedication. So even now I'm trying to set those boundaries. But I think relaxation is also something that I'm trying to work on as well. So finding hobbies and time for these hobbies. So I'd still spend time maybe a night binge watching TV shows, things that just have no ROI. I think I'm the type of person that sort of still finds time to do these things, but it's just tricky. But I think again, it's what you need to have just to keep sane. I think at the end of the day, you need time and spots where it's like you're not constantly thinking about your venture or these projects. Just because that does definitely lead to burnout. And I think as a person who wouldn't get burnt out, but I'm at that point where I think recently it was like, okay, maybe I'm doing a bit too much. It's time to scale back a bit, time to have a bit more focus and time to like set more boundaries basically. Yeah.

And I think something that would be fair to say about you is because you started so young, like you, like I said, I mentioned earlier, you've had this head start and I think one of the most useful head starts that you may have got is dealing with imposter syndrome, right? You're going into like, you know, US State Department roles and all these things that people work years to gain any kind of experience to have access to that role, let alone get it. And have you— I mean, you must have a pretty healthy relationship with the idea of imposter syndrome. And when did you start, you know, what age, and how did you overcome the idea of imposter syndrome?

Yeah, I think definitely having a head start helps because like no matter where you're at with your journey at the beginning, you're certainly gonna get imposter syndrome because especially if you're doing your own project and all of that, it gives you the leverage points and opportunities to just be in so many amazing spaces. So for example, I remember back with my youth-led nonprofit, I was doing a bunch of speaking engagements and one of the ones that stood out was I like called an educational conference. One of these big summits for educators, principals, and all of that. I was like, hey, saw your website. Would love to do a talk if it fits your theme and all of that. And they actually got back to me and they're like, hey, yeah, sure. Would love to have you. Again, I was the only sort of Gen Z or student speaker in that space. All the other principal were like principals or professors and all of that. And I was like, you know what? Yes, I'm definitely not the normal profile you'll see on this sort of lineup. But again, there's a reason they wanted me to be there. Even though if I don't have the same qualifications, they saw the value, right? They saw that I could add value to that conversation. So even at that point, I was like, yes, it obviously looks pretty weird. Yes, this is not usual, but there's a reason why you're there. And that mindset really helped. And again, when I was there, Yeah, even though I didn't have the same background as all the other speakers, it was again, back to this point, the people there really appreciated that I offered something they couldn't find from the other talks, something that they couldn't find from the keynotes. And so it was really well received. And I think even at that point, I saw the impact of like being in these non-traditional spaces, being in like these weird, crazy rooms where people are just like way more senior than you. I think that mindset has helped me for many future things where I'm like, okay, if I'm meeting someone who's like, 50 who's like a CEO and all of that. Again, there's a reason why you're there. There's a reason, like there's the value, um, you can still add. And that has helped a lot. But even now it's like, I try to keep that open mind. It's like, yeah, you, you'll definitely start off with imposter syndrome though. Yeah.

And you mentioned just there, your, your background being a little bit different. I mean, you said you recently moved to the UK, so I guess technically you fall under an international student, like, being educated in England. And a lot of our following now is international students. And I think, like, you know, if I think I have it unfair in terms of, like, where— what I can— what jobs I can get, and, like, applying to loads and being rejected, they're like— they have it 10 times harder. I mean, I mean, because you start so young, maybe it's not like probably you directly face because you've got all this work experience, but what would be your advice to people, to international students, and how they can get ahead and, you know, also just deal with it, you know, that rejection and keep on going?

I think definitely, especially international students, have to savvy about— be savvy about networking, I think, and particularly savvy about their career strategy. And I think personal branding is at the core of it as well. Because again, if you're going in a job market where there's like hundreds and thousands of applicants, even for like really competitive jobs, if you don't have the work authorization, if you don't have that like link, it does get harder. However, if you differentiate yourself with a strong personal brand, you basically aren't competing in the same pool for a lot of job opportunities, for a lot of different like leverage points because you stand out from the student population, you get access to opportunities that aren't even advertised. So I think that makes a big difference because if you're an international student, you're not really trying to network, trying to meet new people, or trying to build that brand, then you're competing with the domestic pool of applicants and students and everyone, and that makes it I think 20 times harder. So I think more international students should be looking at how can I build more connection points and try really to get the most out of the ecosystem, right? Get the most out of different communities here in London or in the UK more broadly. But I think generally it's— there still needs to be a lot of work done to like reduce those barriers, right? Because this doesn't necessarily come naturally. So it's like one hand you have to be ambitious and take an issue, but on the other hand there still needs to be work done to at least make these spaces more accessible.

Yeah. And do you need to know what that brand is going to be before you start building this personal brand?

That's a tough one. I think ideally yes, but that's a big ask, right? If you're a student, and even for myself, it's, I'm still refining and sort of iterating on my own personal brand. So I think it's okay to start off not knowing what that brand looks like. People just enjoy like useful pieces of content. People just enjoy hearing your voice. People just enjoy people who take initiative, go out there, meet new people. So I think it doesn't need to be a niche necessarily unless you're really trying to go right into that content creator sort of category. So I think a lot of students have definitely things to share, just be it like their involvement in university, like different things they're passionate about. But I think they should work towards that niche for sure and work towards like maybe a project or something that much like a podcast, right? Gives you an excuse to reach out to people. And I think that's like a big, big, big like point that I think international students should focus on.

Yeah, and the reason why I started the podcast is because at the time I didn't think like I knew what my personal brand would be, but I knew that the people I'd be interviewing would deliver genuine value, and in turn I could try and discover what mine might be. Um, but yeah, I mean, personal branding is weird because it is a new term, like It definitely wasn't around when my parents were having a company. In fact, like, if there was a founder, there was a company, you very rarely knew the founder. People like Richard Branson, like, pioneered this idea of attaching a name to a brand in terms of, like, growth and marketing and everything like that. But I think first, people with first round, you can take a lot of learnings from branding in itself, because if you look at branding with converting companies, um, it really is a lot of, uh, not stealing, but, you know, looking at what people are doing and just like, like you said, iterating on what they're doing. Whether it's, you saw a LinkedIn post that worked and you thought, I resonate with that, I could try and replicate that. That's, you know, something that I would say would be a good piece of advice. I mean, yeah, what's your opinions on that?

Yeah, I think definitely we've come a long way where, you know, previously your CV should be something that's kind of private you shouldn't be talking about like your job or salary, all these different things. But I think, for example, LinkedIn has sort of revolutionized that, right? With this concept now that your CV can be instantly viewed by millions and millions of users at any point in time and sort of in all over the world. So I think that has revolutionized sort of how we see it. And then content creators as well is sort of a whole new category of celebrity in terms of the value they get from filming a 10-minute YouTube video, for example. So I think it's pretty radically transformative, but it means that now is the time to get on board. But I think definitely, even if you haven't figured out what your voice is, you could still make a start. You can still start building things, iterating things. I think why it's come more naturally to me is I've always enjoyed more verbal things versus numerical things. So I like, a lot of the roles was always in like a comms background as well. So instead of doing my own personal brand, it was often like doing marcomms for like nonprofits or edtech companies, startups, or like bigger companies. So it was always like, okay, how do you communicate their message effectively? What are the different strategies to do? Like, you know, press releases, how do you engage with like other stakeholders, like government bodies and all of that. So it took all those learnings and I was like, okay, How do I apply it to myself as a personal brand? And I think that's what helps me a lot. And, but also like something I enjoy, like communications is something I enjoy. So it's like, okay, now I gotta do it to myself and treat myself as a brand, right? And derive therefore a lot of value from it.

Yeah. And obviously you've worked for a lot of companies, but now you are kind of venturing into doing something for yourself and, and becoming a founder and Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a solo founder of this company, right? And I mean, what's the logic behind that? Because obviously a lot of what you're saying is this community idea and being in constant conversation with people, mentors, people that can hold you to account. But yeah, you don't have that direct person to hold you to account to make it happen. Was that on purpose or, uh, yeah, just coincidental?

Yeah, I think it's more like a pragmatic reason. I think Definitely still looking for like the right fit for co-founder, but probably technical. So I think again, I'm a non-technical founder, very early stage. So I think the focus for me was like I would do a lot more like comms, strategy, fundraising work, team building, HR operations and all of that. And again, we're a product that's very low tech, it's no code. So we didn't think it was the right time to bring in like a technical founder yet. The value would not be as much, but I do have a very strong team, so we do have now, like, plenty of people actually, students, part-time basis, like, building out this venture, focusing on these core verticals as well. So it's still like a very vibrant ecosystem. But I think what I've sort of seen is like many people perhaps like rush to getting a co-founder even though there might not be like the best alignment. And I think definitely like most VCs prefer like a— they don't really want to see like solo founders. But I think until you're at that right point where you see the right fit and the right person, I think people should be very careful just because of pragmatic reasons, but also because if the vision isn't very clear or they don't necessarily share the same way, especially very early on, that could be very damaging. So I'm very happy to have a really strong team that I think eventually may even move up. Maybe one of them can move up to co-founder status, or maybe I'll find a technical person that can really help take us to the next level. I think, yeah, it's more pragmatic. Pragmatic sort of situation.

Yeah, and albeit you're 20 years old and I'm 22, we're actually at very similar stages in terms of where our company is and the branding of that company is, in that we've established what we're trying to achieve and people will know our company for that. But in actually achieving that, we've— well, from what you just said, onto the strategy of helping, like, letting students get involved and helping out And yeah, I mean, like you said, you've got 20. We now have roughly a team of 30 people helping out. I mean, my personal driver behind that was two reasons. I think that students are a very untapped resource. Um, there are these really well-educated, ambitious young students that can't get the work experience throughout the year because it's really spring weeks or summer internships or nothing else. And so in some ways, yeah, I feel like, why would you not just get them to help out? I mean, exactly. And the other reason is I genuinely feel like I'm providing something for them. If you're in a position that you put yourself, your, you know, your head on the block, so to speak, and you're the one at the head of it, not everybody has to do that to be successful. You can grow together and people can learn from you and then jump on to the next thing. Yeah, what was your own thinking behind bringing more people into the team?

Yeah, absolutely love that. I agree. I think students are untapped resource, 100%. I think it's pretty funny. I think all the venture ideas I've had, even prior to this Micro Meetup idea, even back to like Youthland nonprofits, has always been about how do you tap into the student sort of community or pool? Because again, I think the expectations are quite different. A lot of them value like strong work experience, a lot of them have a lot to offer, and therefore you have a lot to offer them. So I think I've always sort of been like, okay, even for different ideas around marketplaces, right? How do you build something that's peer-to-peer? How do you let students get value from each other, for example? So a lot of the teams I've worked with have just been fully youth-led, full student teams. I think exactly as you said, it goes both ways. There's so much value both sides can provide. But I think again, it's also that hunger as well, because a lot of them will be like their first sort of like work experience, right? So there's a lot of like mentorship involved and I find that like really fulfilling as well 'cause you're both still like learning, you're both still sort of figuring things, figuring things out and therefore a lot of times you're also in the same stage in life. So there's a lot of like relatability, right? Between like, okay, we don't know what's going on, how do we solve this, right? So I think that helps a lot, but 100% agree. I think sort of students, especially a lot more startups should be figuring how do you like, get them in, like, even, like, not even, like, post-grad, right? I think a lot of accelerators, a lot of that, a lot of these organizations focus, like, immediately post-graduation. But I think even first years, right, there needs to be something like this to compete with, like, spring weeks and all these, like, traditional corporate paths even way earlier on. And I think, again, a lot of them have value there.

Yeah, it's taken me until the last few weeks to realize this, but Yeah, it's funny because at school when you're doing your studies, a lot of people say, and it actually is a proven way of learning, that if you can teach somebody else something, then you probably know it, right? Or at least you're on your way to knowing it. And you can actually really apply that to careers as well. So a teacher would be your mentor in a career sense, and then, you know, the people below you in years below at university, or even peers that are interested in what you're doing, you can mentor them and you're teaching your learnings and just iterating your own head. And I think that's just a really good process of like making sure what you think is true and just getting new ideas on that. Um, what have been for you some, some key learnings that you've made in terms of— yeah, exactly that. I mean, progressing in your career, having the right influences, because ultimately you are who you surround yourself with, really. I'm a big believer in that.

For sure. I think of that mentorship aspect, like, both ways. Like, I, like, do mentorship for a bunch of, like, edtech companies for students in high school as well. And through, like, the public speaking engagement I do, a lot of it was, like, high schoolers. Like, next week I'm doing, like, a tour in Hong Kong for, like, a bunch of secondary schools where I'm just, again, cold email them. I was like, hey, would love to deliver a workshop on, like, social entrepreneurship, building impactful projects, like, just getting that opportunity to give back. And I think, as you said, these are the opportunities to refine even like what you know, right? Like putting it into something that's digestible, thinking what's the best way to communicate or synthesize your learnings right across like 5 years, for example. So this is like even practice for me, like refining every time I do a talk. It's like, what's the best, most digestible chunk of content? But I think the other side as well, like getting valuable mentors even for myself, like for Micro Meetup, I would several very, very strong mentors. And also for a lot of my other ventures and previous ideas, it's like getting people to help and give you advice. And I think people should be more willing to ask for help. I think that's definitely, I mean, that's the reason I think networking is so beneficial. It's not just because you met these people, it's 'cause at the end of the day, it's a relationship that's gonna be built on like helping each other out, hopefully down the line. So I think that to me has been super, super helpful and like accelerated my journey a lot. It's like knowing people who can like help make intros, knowing people who can like give a piece of advice. And I think it goes both ways. So I think, yeah, surround yourself with people who motivate you, but also surround yourself sometimes with people who are maybe at a completely different life stage just because of like that completely different perspective they can provide. Yeah.

So if that's, you know, who you surround yourself with, The other thing for learning is consumption, whether it's reading or listening or watching. And how have you, you know, that journey of making sure you're consuming the right content? Because there's a lot out there, there's a lot, almost too much, and it can be quite paralyzing at times. Loads of different podcasts and loads of different, you know, Bright Networks, LinkedIn, all these different places to look for your career. What have you done to try and improve your efficiency and consuming the right content?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think still figuring that out. I think I'm a person who like wants to like read everything and like if you see my sort of LinkedIn save section, there's probably like 50 like articles or pieces of content that I still need to read. But I think what's helped for me is like trying to like figure out what has been like the most reliable pieces of content or like what sources do you keep going back to? I think a lot of the content is like new, a lot of them are inbound. So it's like figuring out what has been the most reliable source, e.g., you like 5 pieces of content from them, 10 pieces of content from them. So one good one I think is 80,000 Hours, which if you come across it, but for career strategy, it's great because they do like career guides that focus especially on impact. but they also look at like transferable career capital. They also look at other sort of like leverage points. So that has been great and I go back to it like constantly, but also like just books by the same author, for example. So one of my favorites is like The Startup of You by Reid Hoffman, just because again, I think it's that mindset where entrepreneurship isn't just about starting a venture. You can also apply it to career strategy. And I think students should definitely read it because it, A lot of what like startup founders do can be applied to like even just a job search for like something in consulting even. So finding like reliable offers, finding reliable websites, I think has been my go-to strategy.

Yeah. And for someone who's had so much experience at the age that you have, um, in so many different fields, you must feel like, you know, maybe compared to the people that you work with, like not to say that you've got a superiority complex, because I don't believe that you do. You seem very grounded, down to earth. But then inevitably it's going to be an element of, I want everything to be done my way. Like, I know how I want it to be, I have a level of consistency and things I want to be put out in a certain way. But you're building this team, you've got these students working with you.

How—

that process of delegation, how are you making sure you get that right?

Yeah, for sure. I think that's also a tough one because it's like, yeah, like, what's that threshold for quality control? And again, I think I'm still that big believer in like 80/20. Like, I don't think I'm like necessarily a perfectionist. I like set a threshold. It's like, okay, if it's effective or good enough, I think that's like, we need to just get it done. So that has helped a lot. And as a result, I think even students, a lot of them, like their first job experience, again, a lot of it is just mentoring. So it's like a dual learning process. So I think that's, that's been fine. But I think there has to just be more of a mentorship mindset. You can't expect everything to be like 100% perfect. You also can't expect, especially students, to be dedicating their full working hours on this, right? So I think one skill I've developed is figuring out how to like leverage the most out of people with limited working hours. So it's like if you're only doing like a few hours per week even, right? Like how can you most effectively use their time and use their passion? So I think working with students is quite different to like say you're a full team of 5 full-time completely focused. I think is that like just setting clear goals, KPIs, but also really adjusting your expectations, like figuring out, okay, how much value can they provide? What are they particularly good at? What do they want to learn? And then again, being much more of a mentor than say like a boss or someone who's like simply trying to like get their 10 hours a day, you know, checked off and tick a box, right?

Yeah, and I think some of it is probably more of an apt name for this episode would be the Undergraduate Guide because, you know, really as much as like you will actually, actually act as an inspiration to people who already graduated, like it's— you're helping people in those earlier stages like come to university and hit the ground running and everything. And on that, I mean, obviously it's because it's a slightly different episode, I'm particularly interested in your own idea of success. I ask all my questions all my guests this question because I think it's fascinating, that idea of when you first go to university and start your career, like, oh, this is what I think will be success— money, this, whatever— and then however many years down the line, it's, it's completely different. There's different drivers and different things you want to succeed. But for yourself, what is your own idea of success?

Yeah, I think right now, at least, it's this big vision of like making an impact or leaving sort of a legacy. So I think oftentimes, like, for people, if money is their North Star, that often sort of like drops down in sort of their priorities list after their like 30s or once they reach a certain point, right? There's that sort of study where it's like after a certain point of income, your happiness sort of drops down. But I think this idea of legacy, which is so much harder to capture, it's so much harder to put a KPI to it. It's like going to be a constant driver for you. If your goal is like, okay, for the time I have on this earth, what are ways I can make an impact? What are ways I can benefit, influence, or add value to as many people as possible? So I think that's been a big driving force because again, I consider myself to be a community builder. I work with people more than numbers, more than anything else. So again, it's like, how many people can you impact? And I take different approaches to that, whether it's my own ventures, whether it's like supporting these bigger networks and institutions. It's like, How can you, yeah, benefit the most people? So I think that helps ground you, but also gives you something to keep striving towards versus something, say, like money, a certain job title, a certain like amount of material success that, you know, once you hit that KPI or once you hit that mark, it's not as a big or a grand sort of motivation. Yeah.

As we come towards the end of the episode, I wanna ask you one final question. And that's in 5 years' time, if you were to look back at this podcast and want one key learning that you've made at this current moment in your career, in your life, what would that one piece of advice be for your future self?

I think definitely try to relax more. I think at that point hopefully if things have settled down, I have even greater clarity about what I'm doing, even less so in that sort of explore stage. So I think my advice to future me would be sort of relax, take things slowly, but keep doing what you're doing. But just like be mindful about, you know, how you're spending your time. And hopefully at that point, you know, you've built the life you want for yourself.

Great, thanks so much, Kanyal.

Thank you so much.