Ross Field, Head of Research @ Flight Studio

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Ross. Welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, and you are the Head of Research at Flight Studio. Talk me through what that actually means as a role, because everybody knows how integral the research is to the success of Dara, the CEO, and all the podcasts within Flight Studio. But for you, what does that role actually mean?

Okay, so yeah, like I said, thanks for having me. You have about— we've got roughly 5 shows at the moment under Flight Studio, that includes Dara CEO, And so, you know, each of the hosts, such as everyone will know Stephen, they'll do their research, but this is more of a helping hand and going into the real depth, seeing what's out there. And, you know, a big aspect is reading everything, watching everything, just seeing everything. And that could mean knowing what's been done before the script and then changing that, or, you know, what hasn't been asked before. So it's going into that extra depth that, you know, beyond their initial research, research.

Yeah, and that's obviously what you do as Carbon Autonomy, but having chatted a little bit beforehand, this was not something you always intended to do, it wasn't like a dream of yours, and you've had a bit of a zigzaggy career to get to this point. So I think if we start off at the beginning, what did you see your career initially to be when you were at university?

I had no idea. I didn't even know I was going to go to university. I was just a bit, I don't know, I was a bit lost, a bit annoyed, I would say, like just kind of wasn't, I didn't really find my groove. So I was even thinking about like the military at one stage because I was just, you know, give that a go. And luckily, like my grandpa said, who was a military man, was like, you don't want to do that. So I went to uni and I was just, I had a great time. I had honestly just a really, really good time, met loads of my mates, just really loved the feeling of being there. And I did not, I think I even said to the career counsellor, I'm just gonna go on Deal or No Deal. I had no clue what I wanted to do. And yeah, it did feel like I was almost, when I finished it, I was almost like the kind of left behind. As in, I felt like I'd been betrayed. I said, "Oh, everyone's got like their graduate program or their career coming." I was like, "You could have told me!" I was there and I had like kind of left with no real aim whatsoever.

I find it interesting though that what you do now, from the outside looking in, is inherently academic and it's, you know, the pursuit of knowledge. And at university, did you feel you even if you weren't thinking too much about your career, were you still very much in touch with what you were studying?

So, like, throughout my educational career, I think I've kind of riled a bit against the boundaries and the stipulations of academia. I've always been interested. If I find something interesting, I think it's very— I think it's that common male trait of saying, like, getting obsessed with something, wants to know all about it. And I could do that, but it's— I never liked rote learning. I never liked knowing for the sake of knowing, knowing because I have to pass a test. So I wasn't really a good student, to be honest with you. I didn't really get along with a lot of my teachers at times. The ones I did, I really got on well with. Going to uni, I did International Relations because I purposely wanted that as broad as possible. A big thing is I've hated being pigeonholed and saying just learning this, then this. I've always been a master of none. But yeah, I've always had a little problem with the whole academia's strict, uh, kind of cage of what you have to do and the applicability in some instances.

So what was the difference then when you went back into education to do a master's at UCL? Was that very intentional and targeted then?

Um, that was more with a career in mind, but even then I kind of came up against, uh, some of those boundaries once again. So a good example is, so I basically studied security studies, which was counter-terrorism, rebellion, civil war, all the really, like, nice happy subjects. But I, for instance, interesting, you know, side topic, but there's over, I think, 200 definitions of terrorism. So if you look past the kind of fear, it's a very interesting subject to study, like the social construct of it. So I wrote an essay which was basically saying that you could classify school shooters as terrorists. And I got kind of panned for it because they're saying, 'This isn't— there hasn't been research on this.' And you say, 'Well, you want originality, don't you? You want original thought?' And they're like, 'Well, 'Where's your quotation?' I was like, 'Well, I roughly referenced from XYZ.' They said, 'Well, it hasn't been done.' And I was kind of railing against that. Well, this is me trying to do this. And it felt like you had to go get a PhD and then you had to do this. So even then, I just thought there is that binary, there's that push between creativity and academia, which I've always had a bit of a problem with.

Yeah, and I guess you didn't fully know that a role like Head of Research at Flight Studio would come about in the future, but everything you're saying now, you know, it sounds like it's gearing you up for this, this job where you are allowed to rabbit hole and you're allowed to dig deeper and not just allowed to, you're— it's integral to do so. The success of an episode hinges on that research, I suppose.

Yeah, massively. I mean, I would have liked to have known that this was in the future. But you've nailed it on the head there. It's like, it's actively encouraged. And I think a lot of the things I've learned, and a lot of the problems I've had with, say, academia, have led to this. So if I can go into it a little bit, I think one of the most golden rules of research is you should have tattooed in your eyelids, why should anyone care? Just, you know, 'Why should anyone give a damn what you're saying?' Because we all know phones are really fun to look at. There's so much on the internet that I could be— I could do so many other things. Why should you care about this? Whereas I do feel like with academia, it was, 'You have to do this because we say so.' And there wasn't this thing of, like— and to follow on from that idea of why should anyone care and our conversation, I think I like to say there's 3 parts. There's seduce, entertain, and inform. So seduce, you say, look at this, this is a really cool thing, this is, look at this crazy thing, and you're instantly, wow, what is that? Entertain, you know, you're going along, you're doing it in a way that people understand, and then by a side product, you inform someone, but it's never the intention saying, here's a book, read this, learn this. You've got to meet people where they are, and I think that's a big problem.

Yeah, do you think potentially the problem might be the just how blanket education is given to students? I feel like it's up to you to find your own form of learning and pedagogy within the education system, and I'm interested with yourself, like, do you think it's a novelty not actually, you know, sort of being desensitized by the education and career system. I feel like every single person that you see that has extreme, like, great levels of success has always been a little bit, like, different, you know. Otherwise, you just, like, it's human sort of instinct to, to follow other people and just do what you're told. Um, and those that are sort of mavericks and rebellious to that, yeah, are the ones that weirdly end up in places that everyone else wants to be in. Is there a part of you, even though you probably wouldn't say it, that, you know, now you're doing something that you're really passionate about, you're really happy that you just stuck with that mindset of, no, this just isn't me, and you just kept going with that?

I mean, yeah, I would not say I'm successful, classified as one of those, but yeah, no, I am. And I think it's— I have a lot of respect, actually. I was— I think I was saying this to someone the other day— for someone who is they'll do it for the money. As in, I've spoken to people and they say, 'I want a good life, I want a nice life,' and I can't fault anyone for that. And they say, 'I'm going to go down the accountancy route, I'm going to go down the law route, I'm going to go down,' you know, these seemingly safe routes. And, you know, there is an aspect of it's quite honourable to say, 'I'm going to do this, maybe I want to support family, maybe I want to do this,' and to have the discipline and the restraint to actually go in every day doing something that you might not like, want to do. Whereas I would— I think there's been an aspect of Maverick, but also like kind of stubbornness, but also kind of like selfishness, whereas I don't want to do that. Like, I, I'm— and so I've had a lot of balancing that out. I've, in the meantime, I kind of understood the risk or the sacrifice. I've had a lot of bad jobs— not, well, not bad jobs, but jobs I'd rather not be doing. So I've been building, I've been, you know, as a janitor, I've done a lot of things, but I've always thought, I'm going to do what I want to do and kind of be damned otherwise. But that's— I don't think it's always a great aspect, but it's, you know, and at the same time working towards it with not this in mind, but a future of some sort.

Okay, so one thing I'm curious of in this story is that, okay, you have this self-deprecating demeanor to yourself, which is, you know, I love personally, I prefer people that way. However, you at one point became very good at research, and even yourself has to acknowledge that, otherwise you wouldn't have been rewarded with such title of what is the leading podcast in the world, maybe at this point? It's got to be up there.

It's, yeah, it's doing all right, it's doing okay.

So yeah, what was that moment where you thought, okay, you know, not even just within the academic pursuit at UCL, like, that you are actually good at research and presenting it to, you know, someone to then use?

I think it's just I really love doing it. I just really, really love it. I think there's— I love reading, I'm, you know, absolute bibliophile. I think it's just There's also an aspect of, I've seen what people have done before. So if we kind of step back a bit, you do the initial research, you look over everything, you might see the interviews they've done, you've done this, and it's those things where you're seeing the gaps, and that can be like a real thrill, just be like, why haven't you done this? Or like, you could do this and show a complete different side. And it's just this big kind of puzzle at the same time, but I mean, I don't think that's the self-deprecation, but I think there's an aspect, whereas I'm never really fully happy when I've kind of finished it. I always think there's more that could be done, but I, it's honestly, I just really, really like doing the job itself. I like the putting my head down, learning about people, learning the, like, the little different kind of rabbit holes of different aspects. I mean, you can go the craziest roots. I mean, there was something— I was reading something about like diets and junk food and then reading that like it went down to the fact that the Nazis made margarine, like, and it was just these crazy roots I just, I absolutely love. So yeah, that's a long-winded answer to that.

Yeah, no, I imagine there's a lot of, you know, even you saying that then, a lot of fact-checking that you have to do. I mean, I myself take myself down rabbit holes all the time. Probably more so on YouTube, but yeah, so not directly correlated to my job or anything like that. But no, I think it is interesting with research in general as an art form, as a skill, finding your own way of doing it, because I don't think it's a— I mean, maybe you can go to university for it, but it's not like an obvious curriculum research. It's something you do within history. I did history at university. It's something you might do in other subjects as well, but yeah, I think if you look at research as that art form, what would you give to someone as advice to actually go and excel in it while studying at university?

I think there is— you've got to be curious. I think that's front and centre, and it is that it's an aspect of your life, like, you know, I think it's— they're the sort of person who would be constantly reading a book this week or that, or you see their YouTube search history and it's here, there, everywhere. So I think it is just genuinely— I think we put blinkers on ourselves. I think that's a big part of it as well. Why? Why?

Yeah, why do we do that?

I think we have a lot of ease, and what I mean by blinkers is if— and I've started doing this more recently, this could help. I've got friends in finance, and I'm not scientific, I'm not mathematic, I don't really understand it, I'm a bit of a child in that regard, but they're sort of talking about currency exchange. And, you know, it sounds bad, but in a conversation you can kind of white noise it. You could be talking to me, oh, the gilt market's doing— and the blinkest blinker's come on. But if you actually go, hold on, no, I need to listen to this, and then you say— and questions and say, mate, Wait, so what, like, not to be silly, but what does this mean? And what does that mean?

Active listening.

Active listening, but also this kind of— it's changing your perception of like, anything can be interesting, and actually kind of warping it to you. Because I think a lot of people can sometimes be the blinkers, but also be scared off by certain information. They're like, oh, that's— I can't go into that route. So taking it to yourself, maybe asking, finding an easier way for the information. So I think it's not being scared off by the information, it's finding a way, finding an in, finding accessible, and that's kind of led by the curiosity. So I think it's just read everything, watch anything. I don't think there's anything— the only thing that's wasted per se, because people say, oh, don't watch that, don't watch Keeping Up with the Kardashians, that's wasted time. I think it's just No shame, no shame. I think it's the only waste is doing the same thing once or doing the same thing again.

So you've never rewatched a movie then?

Oh yeah, of course I have, but it's— I knew people who would just say, or the same thing of saying like, I don't want to watch that, that's got subtitles. I don't want to like this or that. It's just being completely open and taking in as much you can. There's that classic Steve Jobs thing where he said, You know, he's bumming around at college and then he went to the calligraphy class and famously that's why that, like, you know, you have different fonts on computers. But I think that's just taking in, going into these weird routes and there is a case of, like, I think people put the horse before the cart and they'll say, "I'm not going to do that because I don't find that interesting." But if you put the cart before the horse, you're gonna, "I'm gonna go into that." And then you go, "Oh, actually I find that really interesting." So I think it's having that and just, like, throwing yourself in.

Yeah, I think it was about fear of, you know, maybe asking a stupid question or something like that. But I feel like, yeah, that must be pretty deeply rooted in— again, go back to the UK education system— but like within class, I remember like, you know, say lunchtime bell's about to go and you've got that question on your head, but like everything is telling you don't be that guy, don't be that guy that asks questions, you know, you're gonna be left behind by your mates if you stay behind after class and whatever. And I think it's just, it's not really appreciated until you get older, the value of like knowing things in depth, you know, like actually asking those kind of questions. And I think those are the kind of people that I love being around. It makes someone that bit more infectious when you can tell that what you're saying is not going, you know, just in one ear and out the other. And yeah, I mean, what For this, this may be a bit more of a question for me than for the graduates listening, but so you deliver this information to Stephen, I suppose that's not just where it ends, and it's like working with him and how he actually then consumes it, um, and then building that relationship of, you know, here's the research, here's what you should know about, here's like very surface level, and then you just talk— do you talk through it so that he can do the best interview? How does that work?

Yeah, so, and to go back to your earlier point just there. I think it continues on that not wanting to ask questions. I think people will then embed that in their brain, and I've spoken to people in their 50s, 60s even, and they're like, that's not for me. Like, that's, you know, I, someone like me can't know that. And so I think that's why I love the work with the podcast, and that's definitely, to go to your latter part of the question, a big part of it, because you've got that telescope Imagine a telescope, you've got the broader public, what do people care about, and you've got the smaller one, it's like, okay, what does maybe Stephen, because as an interviewer he's got his passions and we'll come together, what do you want from this? What does the wider audience want from this? So it's find that connection because you can't, I do think you can't have the passion, you can't hide passion, and authenticity is a word that's thrown around so much, and I think that's one of the big things that people are going to have with AI and stuff. Because you could have an AI media platform, but I think people really love passion. And I think you— so to cover that point, yeah, we will come together and discuss that and his interests, and because he'll have done his research, and then we've got, you know, the other shows going on and talk to them, and we'll come together and say, okay, you know, where's— we want to get to here, how's the route to this, will open this door, find a way around. So yeah, definitely having that conversation of saying, what do we want to come across, how do we get there, what do you find really interesting, and that. So yeah, it's, it's definitely that. And it's great to have that sort of relationship and trust. That's a very big part, trust between each other, that, you know, it's gonna be— what I give you is all good.

Yeah, I, I've— yeah, I said that before the podcast that it's ironically hard to research the researcher. However, one thing I did get from my research is, uh, there was a clip I saw where you were referencing an inspirational interviewer who, uh, amongst like, you know, rappers, it was, you know, the best into the game because of his research, right? If we use that as a case study, you know, and maybe where you want to progress and who you want to emulate, What do you think makes a really sort of game-changing interview regarding research? What kind of emotional cues and prompts do you want to give the person you're interviewing that maybe they're not used to?

So the person you're referencing was Nardwa, and he's a good one to check out, but he uses research like a battle axe. Because he'll say to someone, I know the name of your first dog, or— and the big thing that trends on YouTube is people reacting and going, oh, this is crazy. That doesn't really work longer form because I think what it's got to show is— and it shows to a lesser extent with his— but it's trust and respect. It's showing we've done our work. This is, um, you know, this is a— we're taking your story seriously. Because actually, if you think about it, I know celebrities and experts get interviewed a lot, but even like now myself, it's very like charming to be asked to talk about how you feel, what you feel, because how often do you have that in everyday life? Or someone's genuinely like, I'm going to give you the space to completely talk your mind. So it's having the trust and respect to say we actually We're telling you about, we're showing you we know about your story, but we're handling it very carefully and we're giving you the control to take it where you want to. And we can kind of understand that and we can align it so we're both going the same way. I'm not going to screw you over. And so that could be, we've started, you know, for instance, Dive SEO use props and things like this because it's very emotive. Smell is like, I heard it somewhere described as like a time machine. If you're going to time travel, smell, because it's that straight to that part of your brain. So yeah, it's using those to really bring a story to life for that person, and then they can communicate it and bring it to life for the listener.

Yeah, I'm sorry we've got no smells for you.

The coffee smells lovely.

But yeah, I'm curious in terms of, you know, again, looking at what makes great research. I imagine you also have to adapt it to, say for example, you have a really well-known person like Thierry Henry who you're looking to maybe get clips out of things he'd never have said, you know, on a BBC post-match interview. But then you might have someone who is a lesser-known person but an expert in a really interesting field where you're looking to— and sometimes I've seen on Da Lí Séo, for example, they have even more viewership than the famous people, and I guess that comes down to like the quality of the content being discussed? And is even, you know, if you see what I'm asking here, there's two different forms of research, two different—

Yeah, there is.

Is that right?

Yeah, so you can kind of split it between celebrities and experts. So yeah, in broad terms, that is true.

And how, I mean, without going into the full process of it, like, how do you sort of treat them differently?

Yeah, sure. So let's take celebrities first because everyone likes celebrities. That's— shout out to the booking team, they're second to none, the best. So they'll get them in, we'll have talks, and the way you would approach that more is exactly as you said, that you want those responses because actually no one really— it's— if we go back to first principle, why does anyone care? I don't want to know about you've driven up here in your Ferrari, everything's great, you're handsome, you're rich, you're like footballer. That doesn't connect. There's a great book, I can't remember what it's called, it's like about storytelling and it's written by a guy and he won this thing called The Moth, which was a storytelling contest. And he's had this bananas life and there is a point to this point, by the way. And he's had a nuts life and he you know, he died, he's been brought back from the dead twice, he talks about how he was like shot by his mum or something like this, these crazy stories. But he said the best one that ever— story that ever did for him was— that's not correct grammar— the best received story was he told a story about how he was having dinner with his wife and his children and his daughter brought up the fact that you always pack too much food in my lunchbox. And then he realised that his wife takes the food out, and it goes back to the time when he was quite poor growing up, and he didn't have enough food, so he wanted to give the food to his daughter. The point being, everyone can connect to that, you know, a family feeling hungry, these things. So to bring it back to the celebrity aspect, what really does really well is the human aspects. People want to know, oh, you know, I had quite a difficult relationship with my father, or like, I didn't— I still don't feel like I'm great, because everyone can feel these same emotions, you know, it— but then you just take out the aspect of like, you've seen me bang it in the net, you know, a million and one times, but it could be that, um, I didn't get like the props I felt I deserved, or something like this, and it just brings everyone relatable, and then you can identify with it, and then it opens up a lot more, and for that kind of, uh, those points, a lot happened a lot more organically. It's a lot to be said for— and shout out the production team— it's a whole team effort of creating the environment, creating the whole ecosystem that you do feel as if you have a space to open up and you have the timing. Steven is second to none for giving that space of expressing what you want to express. So we might give you know, trails along the path of saying, okay, maybe you say this and it might lead to this. But Stephen's instincts are second to none. So that's celebrities. Experts are more, you know, bashing some more on education system. I do think there's a problem with isms and schisms. I think we can hide behind grammar and language to a certain extent, sort of like realism, liberalism, da da da da da. These grand-sounding words. And the whole point of this, and it's a really pinnacle point of like why I love doing it, is we're breaking it down for anyone to understand, anyone at all. So it's— we're not shaming you for not knowing this. It's— there's that thing of, you know, if you can't explain a point in a sentence, you don't understand it, it's not me. So that can be helpful. We start bringing in, say, props, because the way that works is you bring something you know, and the way your brain is wired, something you don't know can then become connected to a synapse that you do know, and then that comes together. So if you think of something like, we use a water glass to explain consciousness, that's a simple term, and it just, as we said with celebrities, everyone can relate to a water glass, everyone's felt it, everyone's understood it, but it's in your brain and then it becomes connected to a more difficult thing, which then hopefully people can go away with a foundation and then add those connections. So that's a very brief overview.

Yeah, and I think you do a very impressive job, and I know you said it's a team effort, at allowing for and enabling these hard-hitting questions and the ability to play devil's advocate, maybe with an expert, or the ability to bring out a story that they wouldn't normally talk about on camera, and I think, yeah, a lot of that has come down to, yeah, I think research is a massive part, and I think we've covered nicely, you know, what you do, why you do it, and I think one thing I want to focus on as we get towards the end of the episode is you mentioned earlier that you just never really felt like you were achieving much in your earlier career, let's put that way. You weren't working jobs that you loved. And I think, you know, especially if you go on LinkedIn or some of these platforms, you'll see people like you, people that are also feeling lost, and, and it almost in disbelief. That's how I felt when I didn't know what I wanted to do. Like, oh yeah, sure, they say they didn't know what, but do they really? What would you say to like reinstall sort of some faith and hope in the people that are currently feeling lost and demotivated in their career to and getting to a point where you are now, where, you know, even if you don't consider yourself successful, you're doing what you love on a day-to-day basis.

Yeah, and I don't think enough credit is given to how low you can really feel. Like, when I remember leaving university and I felt completely lost, completely lost, because it's not just, you know, you study so hard, you've got this mission, but also you're leaving your friends You know, I had a very close group, so I did feel completely lost. And then it does seem an impossible mountain. I think it's just, it's that classic thing of like, how do you eat an elephant? And it's like one bite at a time. It's, I think there is an aspect of have a sort of long game, but at the same time, I'm gonna do that again because that's not good. Because it is a good question because it's, you know, important. I felt like shit. Yeah. So I think it is a case of just keeping the faith. There is— that doesn't help, you know, someone watching it and saying, you know, "Oh, that's easy for you to say." But it is that case of I think you've just got to keep going, but maybe have something burning on the side, you know, making those small incremental progress. So I remember I would You know, I love reading, but I was never really that big a reader until I left uni, but I'd read and then I'd write and I just kind of didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I thought, this is really interesting and I'm going to keep doing this at the same time as doing these other things. So I think it's just, it does get better. You don't really understand what your future could look like and it could be completely something completely different but it could be something great. And that's that thing of like just jumping in with curiosity, seeing what happens. And so it's just, I think, keep it ticking along and it will all genuinely work out well.

And it leads nicely on to my final question for you, which is something that I ask every single one of my guests. And when you were in that period where you were lacking that faith and, you know, you weren't passionate about what you're doing in your career, you might have had a certain idea of what becoming successful would look like. And then, you know, fast forward with everything you've done and where you're at now, I imagine your definition of a successful career might have changed. So what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Uh, to be honest, I don't think it's changed that much. Like, I'm not money motivated. I genuinely am doing what I want to do with my time, with the people I really like. And yeah, I think that for me is successful. I've never, I never wanted the fancy car or the— I'd like a down payment for a house, but that would be nice. But no, genuinely, it would be I'm doing, spending my time how I want, I really like the people I work with, and I feel that I'm doing pretty good stuff. So that's, I'm pretty chuffed.

That's a pretty accessible definition of success. And yeah, um, mate, it's been a pleasure to have you on and all things research and inspirational messages in the career. So yeah, thanks again.

Thank you.