Sam Hörbye, Co-Founder @ Olsam

Sam, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your career so far and your company, Old Sam.

Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, both of you. As I said, I've heard of your podcast, I've seen the previous guests you've had on, so really a big thanks for having me on. I hope this is an interesting, insightful session, so I'll do my best to share, you know, share what I've learned over the last couple of years both from previous work and also obviously Old Sam, which I'm sure we'll cover in a bit more detail. But big thanks for having me on. So yeah, I'm the co-founder of Old Sam, the Sam in Old Sam. So I'm the brother of Ollie, who's my one of my four other brothers. And yeah, essentially, you know, we started our business 3 years ago in COVID and I'll come on to a bit about that story of how it got going and things like this. And prior to Old Sam, I used to live in America, so I spent a bit of time in the US and I worked abroad and I can come on to a bit about why I think that's an awesome I think that's something people should try and do if they can. And then prior to that, I spent a couple of years working for Amazon in their marketplace team, helping UK European entrepreneurs sell on the platform, and saw how, you know, love or hate Amazon, and there are people who are probably listening to this who, you know, who probably sit in both camps, and that's fair enough, but what I saw was a platform that created incredible entrepreneurs, mom-and-pop shop businesses, you know, building profitable companies from their bedroom. Very cool. These are like, highly profitable, growing triple digits every year, with incredible founder stories. So I've got quite a strong affinity with the platform, but appreciate people listening to this might have strong views either way, which is totally fair. And then prior to that, I worked for a startup when I left Durham. So Durham, I read politics and international relations there. Didn't want to go into that when I left uni, and eventually went to startups when I left there. That was back in 2015. So that's kind of a brief, a brief overview.

Yeah, and did you always see yourself as an entrepreneur, which you might be labelled as now, or was that something that came with time in your sort of more corporate career?

So basically my dad, I was going to say Ben because Pete knows, my brother, but our dad, he's worked for himself as an entrepreneur I'd say since his like mid-40s. He's now like late 60s and He's always, he shared the ups and downs with us and the challenges of taking that quite lonely road. And undoubtedly it's super challenging, but he loves it and continues to love it now. But I think what I recognized early on was I had to, I didn't know what I wanted to do at all, no idea. I knew I also didn't want to go, I'm really bad at numbers, not very good at numbers. Ollie's fantastic, my co-founder. He's a qualified accountant, but I'm not. I also didn't want to go to like a formal qualification, like do my accountancy, go into investment banking, a lawyer like my other brothers. I kind of didn't know what to do. So Amazon at the time was a great training in e-commerce. I love— I buy stuff online. I kind of was interested in doing my own thing, but didn't know what. So I think that gave me a great training for the first couple of years there. Then whilst I was there, so I was kind of, I was there at 23, I had my own, I started my own side hustle there, which was a stationery business. So I went to China, saw some products selling notebooks, and actually that became the number one selling stationery brand within its category in the US. So I grew that to about a million turnover as a side hustle, and then sold it after about 3 years or so. And I loved that journey, like growing from zero to one and the challenges you've got there. Of putting all your money into that first shipment of products, and you're like, I literally don't have any more. And then you get customers leaving amazing reviews, and they're like, this is amazing. This is just a notebook, but to them, with the packaging, with the thought, with the brand, it's way more. And eventually, you know, our product became very popular in pregnancy diaries. So women who are having postnatal depression or, you know, challenges with pregnancy, they used it for that. Had never planned it for that use. But anyway, that got the bug going. And then I think, really, I didn't really know what I wanted to do or who I wanted to do it with. And that's where I think timing comes into it as being pretty fortuitous that this idea came up and I found the best co-founder I could ask for in my other brother.

Yeah, and on that, you mentioned— knowing what you're good at and knowing what your brother's good at and, uh, delegating responsibilities and how important that is to the success of a company. Um, obviously you've got a massive team now, um, you know, 3 years on from starting it, but in that initial phase of actually growing your team, you know, similar to picking your co-founder, how did you know who was next to hire based off your skill sets and what you didn't have?

Great question. Great question. So how did I know who to hire? Truthfully, we didn't. And I think I was asked this recently about some of the biggest learnings we've had building our company. So as I said, so my expertise is, I guess, branding, marketing, sales, that side. Ollie's is finance, M&A. He's a qualified accountant. So tick off those two boxes, those two broad categories there. And then you have to kind of think about, right, if we're going to achieve this, achieve the initial goals, who do we need to bring in? And I think we made some early hires very early on who were the wrong hires for us. Not so much just purely because they weren't suitable for startups. And I think one of the biggest learnings I've had is there are decisions that were made 3 years ago. These one or two-way door decisions, have you guys come across these? And essentially, decisions that you can back out of quite easily. And these were decisions at the time I had no expertise in. And we're unpicking those mistakes now, 3 years later. So yeah, big learnings made there. So truthfully, you test for culture and a culture fit, and also expertise. And people who are wicked smart, who are suitable for the role comes across in the early interview process. But at that cultural side, that's very hard to find. And again, people ask, how do you know? And my genuine response is, you just know. When you sit— like, we sit together now. I'm feeling very comfortable. I think it's a good energy, right? But sometimes we've had it where you've met people, and there's just not that— it doesn't initially feel right. And every time we've made the wrong hire, every time, 99% of the time, that good feeling hasn't been there. But we've decided to go for it. Because we typically have had to because we really need to fill the role. And I was always told, never fill the role if you don't have to. And we didn't make— we messed that up.

It's obviously something you've learned, but I mean, maybe for someone like myself, I'm looking for a job right now. I'm a student. I've got no experience in the world. I feel like I'm— I've got personality. I'd be able to resonate with you or another, you know, employer. How would I build that sort of How would I make myself more impressionable towards an employer like yourself and sell myself in that way?

So I noticed you guys had Matthew from Jumpstart on the program before.

His co-founder, Kabir, yeah.

Yeah, do you mean— OK, Kabir, yeah. So we've hired a couple of Jumpstarters at AllSap. And I was asked yesterday by someone on the program exactly the question you asked just now. I think the first thing I'd say is, by and large, most people interviewing, it probably will be their first, I guess, formal role, I'd imagine. It might be a second, but let's just say it's the first one. So the thing I'm really looking for and the thing I'm kind of really looking to draw out is, is this company one of many you're interviewing for, which it may be, or is it like, no, I love e-commerce. And I love consumer goods, and this is my passion, because one day I want to be a founder of a consumer goods company, or a founder of an online business, take broader. So what I'm really looking for is, do I genuinely feel they're passionate about this, or is this just a, I'm one of many startups they're interviewing for because they don't know, which is fine, but we do interview people who are very passionate about online. So for us, it's kind of really getting that passion coming across early on. And it could be, Sam, I've got a, I've flogged, I don't know, Stationery at uni for like a year when I first started, I used to sell campus t-shirts, whatever it is. But that very basic, like, bought it for X, sold it for Y, this is the delta, happy days. And that kind of, that principle, that's really interesting for me. I'm conscious of how do you explain what AllSamm is? So you'll probably, people don't know what—

Go for it, shoot.

Yeah, sorry, so I was editing this earlier on, but AllSamm is basically, so we are an e-commerce platform. We partner with entrepreneurs all over the world. And we buy their business 100%, and then we grow it with our team in-house. So we've got a team across supply chain, finance, branding, marketing to take this brand to new heights. We launch it on new channels, we launch new products, we launch on social, and the business owner who we bought it from shares in the upside with us. So we sort of pay them earnouts after, after every year. So it's kind of a, it's a win-win for them and it's a win for us because we get to grow the business and then have our team of experts take it to new heights. So we're a team of 60 now sitting across, or 65 sitting across, you know, UK, America, and California, India, Philippines, South Africa, and all over. And yeah, we've raised, you know, $170 million now in terms of seed, Series A funding, credit, and debt, and equity. And yeah, it's been an amazing journey so far.

Yeah, let's just talk about that journey a little bit. Let's hone in on it. As you say, raised over $170 million, was it? You've got Peter Thiel, I read, as one of technically a strategic partner, the first founder, one of the first investors in Facebook. Yeah. As you say, offices around the world. How has that journey been for you and your brother?

Yeah.

As someone maybe, you know, you just started selling stationery and now this is what you, your life.

So I think where I would start this is like, imagine where were you guys when COVID, you know, just started to, I guess when it was locked down, when you heard the message come out on the news and you watched Boris, you know, announced the lockdowns, where were you at that time?

I was at school, so it was my last year of school. The first, well, it's a similar, this is kind of when it first sunk in, a similar message 2 days before that when I realized my exams were canceled. And that was kind of when it sunk in. That was the lockdown basically when it started for me. It was 18th of March, 2020.

I was a ski instructor in Canada on the slopes when I got the news. Oh. The mountain just got closed. And I was up there.

Seriously?

Yeah, literally, I saw the BBC News notification, had to ski down my last ever one round.

Really?

Yeah.

And then were you by yourself there?

No, I was with other people. We had some beers at the top of the mountain to say goodbye to the world for a little bit.

Yeah, no, I mean, I always ask that question because everyone seems to remember exactly where they were, and it typically was, you know, really, you know, that moment, it kind of won't— I don't think will leave me for a long time. But I was in I was walking down Broadway in New York and it was dead and the city was in the process of— it took about 3 days to go really quiet and this was kind of day 2. And I was there selling Fever Tree, you know, the drinks business. My job there was to go around. I basically ran the restaurant and bar trade in New York selling this product. So Fever Tree is launching in America. They needed to get presence. My job was to go around and sell it and everything was shutting down. and, you know, a city as loud as that, it was completely quiet apart from the sirens around the city. And this is a time where you've got, you know, Donald Trump obviously, you know, was president, you know, who was denying that it was spreading. So New York was hit really quite badly and really late. And I'm by myself in this city with a pretty basic insurance package. And obviously in the US you need to have health insurance. But at the time Donald Trump announced that, you know, if you were a UK citizen or if you weren't American and it was between a US citizen and a non-American citizen and there was one ventilator, they would get it and one wouldn't. And I spent 8 weeks in my apartment, in this tiny apartment in New Jersey where I was living with 3 others, one of whom got COVID quite badly from a Hindu in New Orleans. She came back And we all got it. And I lost my sense of taste for 9 months. I had no smell or taste for 9 months after that. And I kind of like, I remember, yeah, you're in this tiny apartment and you're hearing these sirens going and there was this big ship coming down the Hudson and it was all like really, really scary. And basically my job, I obviously couldn't do my job anymore. So there I was working in a finance team. They were being really good to me. Basically saying, you don't have to be here. And this, guys, to be honest, like, this was my— it was my dream to live in America. I kind of had left London quite, um, you know, slightly like I kind of wanted to change of scene. And, um, I was gutted. Um, I remember that feeling. I was so gutted that what I'd fought so hard to try and, you know, get after 8 months had been just like gone. Um, and, um, you know, I, I remember like going for these walks on the river with my housemates. But this is so What is going on? You know, really, really, really scary times. Anyway, I flew back to the UK. I remember on the flight, just, it was about 4 of us on this huge 777 plane. Pretty scary if you're in Thailand. No one there, just 4 of us. And really, flying a night flight, it's a scary experience. Wouldn't recommend it. But anyway, I worked for them, for Fevertree, remotely in the UK. They supported me through that, and I worked US hours. They continued to pay me. But, but yeah, then I sort of saw this idea in the US taking off. This US company was buying profitable companies and growing at an insanely quick rate and profitable. So I messaged Ollie, who at this time was doing flying back and forth, still flying. They were making him fly. He's the only one flying on the aeroplane back and forth to Switzerland. And we started exchanging emails. Didn't want to start a business with my sibling. I don't know if you guys or anyone listening to this could think about starting a company with their siblings, brothers, sisters.

Absolutely not.

For the record. So I don't know, have a think, like, if it ever would cross your mind, because it didn't cross my mind. And then you suddenly realise, actually, this could work. And Ollie quite liked the idea, and we were bouncing ideas off each other. And so the first email went out on April 1st, 2020. And from there we had obviously full-time jobs and we were doing pitching. First time trying to put a pitch deck together, send out emails to investors, um, and it took, yeah, about, uh, until December to, uh, to sign. So when the money literally hit the bank account, I resigned from Fevertree, um, and went full-time.

So, um, yeah, yeah, just on the sort of the subject of struggling and the change in lockdown, one of the things that happened to me personally was I went from— I was on my year out, yeah, I went from, you know, school, like boarding school, where there's just a load of structure and accountability, and then having absolutely nothing to do. And that, for me, that really tore me apart, and I couldn't really put my efforts into anything. And I know, looking at your LinkedIn, that you went to Radley College, which is also a boarding school, and somewhere that was very hard deadlines, a lot of accountability, and then Durham, very much the same, and even at Amazon, targets to hit, et cetera. And you start this business, it's you and your brother, nobody to hold you accountable for what you do, and it's very different to everything you've experienced before. How did you find that, sort of not having that accountability, and how do you reflect on that whole experience?

That's a really interesting observation because that's something that, yeah, I think before you've essentially formally taken the plunge and actually have, you know, cash in the bank, you're right, you're kind of slightly drifting to try and kind of You're trying to achieve this goal, but there isn't anyone telling you, you know, what to do, or you should be doing more of this, or exactly the deadlines. It is— it's really hard. And I actually, I realized that I am pretty good at setting my own— what I think are objectives, and when in the absence of a boss or teacher or lecture, whatever it is you need. Um, Ollie and I are pretty good at that. Um, but I have to say, like, exactly right, when we went on this journey, it was hard because you suddenly, you're the one deciding on a Monday morning, here's my list. I've had, I've had 30 nos last week. Um, I've had to pitch to a chair. I'll come on to the story in a bit. Really like brutal and embarrassing and then you've got to go back on the Monday again and try again. And it's hard. It's really hard. But I think that's something that— but it got to the point where I had to prove to myself I could do it. That's what it came down to. I just thought, I have to do this. But you're right, it's challenging for sure.

And in the face of all those rejections, getting out of bed in the morning when there's no real need for you to do so, Does that feeling of proving to myself that I have to do this, does that wane, or does that feeling of self-belief, does that go as well in the face of these rejections? How did you deal, maybe, with that if so?

I think, so yeah, I think we were lucky in a sense that we knew the idea was a good one because companies had raised money, it was doing well. It just was in a different market with a different founding team. But we knew that it worked. And I think one of the challenges— I have massive respect, and I met one of the founders when I was in America recently of this company. But to be the first person to push this and to convince investors that this was a good idea when no one in the world was doing it is very hard. And extremely, hats off to them because that is difficult.

Kabir spoke about sort of de-risking entrepreneurship because a lot of people just, you know, some people just go into it and they're like born with this entrepreneurial spirit, whatever, whereas others are like very happy with like, you know, being in their own lane. And then, yeah, for you, you've sort of— this idea has come up and I imagine you didn't leave your job, you had this fortunate opportunity that If it weren't for the idea being one that would work and having the money, you wouldn't have maybe done it. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, so with our idea, the difficult thing with us is that we couldn't do the business without raising money. We couldn't bootstrap it, not a single penny, because for us, we have to buy companies. So for most, you can kind of bootstrap it, have it as a side gig, get it to a point where it's got some scale, and then even then, don't raise money. I'll explain a bit why that's a problem. But go as long as you can by yourself. But in ours, you couldn't do that. And we're lucky we've got great investors who've joined us, but we couldn't do it from day zero. But if I can, I'll just tell you the story. So we were— it was like middle of the way through this pitching process, and this VC we were emailing, who I can't name, but I'd been emailing them asking for a pitch. And he was emailing me back being really, really pretty rude on the email. And I said to Ollie, look, we've got a pitch with this person. Let's, you know, just FYI, these are the emails he sent. I think it's going to be an interesting one. He came on and he started with, um, Sam, just so you know, like, I've had a look at you guys, like, you're not that special. Like, I've seen other people and you're just not. So I don't really know why we're having this conversation, but I'm happy to have a conversation. But to be honest, as I said, we look, we found another team we're going to back. That's how he started the call. So here we already, you're on the back, you're kind of on the side of the back foot. Anyway, we did the pitch, we explained why us, what we're different, etc. And midway through he says, "Stop, stop, stop, just wait a minute." And he gets up and he goes to his kitchen, and obviously he's working at home, it's COVID. So he goes to his kitchen and he shouts out, "Yeah, carry on." So he's now making a cup of tea in the kitchen and we're pitching to a chair in his house. And I was looking at Ollie like, "This is super weird. I don't know what to do here." Anyway, I was like, anyway, he comes back down after a bit of the pitch and obviously I couldn't see him, so he probably wasn't even listening. He was like, "Guys, look, send me your deck and I probably won't be able to look at it." But just send it. We were like, OK, sure. Anyway, didn't send it. The company they ended up backing was one of the first ones in our space to go bust. And I don't wish any badness on any company and any founder. So that's a brutal— that's not what you want. But it was just quite funny that they thought they knew so well and told us that. So yeah, to your point around it, proving people wrong. Um, yeah, super, super, super pleased that we've done that.

Was there an element of— I mean, presumably this person was an established venture capital professional, they've seen businesses before. I mean, going back to my previous point, does your self-belief deteriorate? Do you question the idea itself when these people are criticizing you in that way? And how would you overcome something like that?

I mean, you know, I think it's, um, one of the things I've realized, guys, is that the And I think slightly even now, and I go to VC events in the US and here, and I think Ollie and I sometimes are perceived as being pretty green, pretty young, and frankly, not taken seriously. And I think the reason for that is because this is our first time— it's a first venture. And I think what people— and I realise investors, and having been through this journey, is that this is brutal. It's been brutal on me personally, brutal on, you know, professionally it's super hard. You know, it's— I have a, you know, family. This is 24/7. And what they're weighing up is like, do these people, men and women who are hearing this pitch from, do they have the minerals to stick at this? Through the worst moments, through the highs and lows, and have bring on a team who are better than them to execute on their vision. And so it's not so much they think the idea's bad, it's that they don't think you're the best people to do it. And I almost think that's harder. And so I think, you know, in retrospect, I kind of, as a first venture, I think it's been an unbelievable experience. But I do now see, I guess, why we had so many nos when we did. And I don't blame people for that. But I think it's taken me to go through the process and speak with other entrepreneurs to kind of understand, you know, these challenges that the VCs are seeing. Because obviously most fail, right? Like, we're at a point now, we're raising our Series B, where the odds are we're one of 200 horses who are going to jump the final fence here. That's pretty awesome. But it's been brutal to get here. An amazing experience, don't get me wrong. But like, it's very challenging.

It's funny that you've got to go to all these people and they've got to pick you, and so part of your job is, right, is picking the right brands itself, you know, actually finding these companies and then deciding which ones are fit for your company. So you're actually doing that decision-making. So two questions in this is that, how did your experience and time at Amazon, your previous jobs, how does that actually translate into what you do now? Like, what does that look like? Yeah. Um, and also you've You've got written on Olsam's LinkedIn is that you're looking for a lucrative niche and a quality product.

Yeah.

Just like explain exactly what that means.

So yeah, so your first question about how did that, how did what I did feed into now? So I guess it's, you know, my job there was to manage companies on the platform. Do you shop on Amazon?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

You can't not.

Yeah. Do you know if you're buying from a third, like a small individual merchant or do you know who you're buying from?

Only if I'm on the website, I might notice it.

10% of the time, maybe. Yeah.

So I think, exactly, most people don't know that globally, there are 1.5 million small businesses selling on the platform. And I got to basically manage a very small subset of these. And as a grad, your job was to basically manage their top line revenue. That was your job, to kind of basically hopefully Bottom left, top right, that was the aim across. I worked in the drills category when I started. So DIY and tools was my first ever job, and I had to call up sellers from all over the UK and ask them, "Hey, do you want to sell on Amazon?" And then I'd help them from that first call all the way through to launch. So kind of sales, account management, strategy. That basically, you know, I saw hundreds of businesses trading on the platform. So I got an intimate knowledge of how these businesses run. What I didn't get to do was see the, I guess, backend plumbing of the supply chain, the sourcing, the branding. I didn't get to see that, but I did get to view what success looks like on the platform. And I was just amazed that people don't know that they're buying from potentially people like you, students like we've done, who are selling 7-figure, million-plus businesses. As a side gig. And that's pretty sick. So this is like really like almost like hidden layer in this ecosystem that people don't know about. I was like, wow, this is awesome. And then you get to meet these entrepreneurs and they know people don't know as well. They're like, it's a secret thing. Like I sell, you know, foam rollers from my bedroom and no one knows and I'm crushing it.

So true. My dad does the same thing. He sells clothes.

Yeah. And I think that's so cool. We've got these like secret side hustles people don't talk about. They're kind of like, they're sort of guilty but super successful pleasure until it goes to a point where it's like, you know, huge. Um, and, um, you know, I think for people listening and yourselves, you know, we get to speak with people who, you know, they said like, we, we, um, we met a husband and wife that own the number one— well, now we own it, but the number one back shaver in America. And they patented the design, the blades, the— they own the term DIY in the shaving category. So that we— the, you know, Gillette can't use it, we own it. Small things like this. And they were running it from their bedroom, two of them doing it for 10 mil, just like, just the two of them together. Side hustle.

Probably a reason why they want to keep that secret.

Probably, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so, so, so your first part, yes, I got, I got to see basically how these businesses run. That obviously fed in very nicely with what I'm doing now. And then, sorry, your second question was around— Peter Wood. It was about lucrative and the niches we look for. So yeah, so it's like, It's in areas where, you know, there's, there's, um, the products are basically not seasonal, so they're constant throughout the year, and they've got kind of a differentiating factor about them, typically with like some good intellectual property that means no one can copy them or they're very unique. So for example, we own like pets, a pet snuffle mat. So do you guys have dogs, cats?

I don't know.

So dogs who have autism Apparently dogs have autism. Some dogs do. And it helps them forage and rummage. And you kind of pour the food inside the snuffle mat. And it has some IP around it. And it's— obviously, pets blew up in COVID. So that's done really well. So it's things that kind of like really differentiated designs or branding or aesthetics in very popular categories.

So are you a venture capital company, in a way?

People say we're kind of like private equity, but with a big operations team. So we kind of balance the two.

On those lucrative niches, how would you actually go about finding them then? So you've got this massive team now for a startup, and actually designating what each person does, and what is the makeup of the company? What kind of employees do you have? And what is your process of finding these people?

Great question. Initially, we didn't know how to get in touch with them, but I remember going to a printing shop near where I lived and I printed out 100 flies, or test ordered 100 flies, sent them out in the post because I thought no one gets post anymore, everyone gets email and kind of, you know, quite sort of cold outreach. So I spent ages designing these flies and we got zero replies to the flies. So I said, oh yeah, it hasn't worked, no replies. However, there was a company. So on Amazon, you get to see when you click on— there's a way you can click on a seller and you see the information. And in the UK, we've got Companies House and stuff, so you can kind of see who the owner is, where they live. And actually what we did was we used, in the very early days before anyone knew about Olsam, a third party who were kind of like— their job is to do outreach for what we call off-market deals, people who are looking to sell. And they approach them directly and go, hey, we've got someone who's interested. Having that sort That degree of separation really helped us, and people don't feel too much pressure. And then actually now, we're now pretty well known. So people come to us, and they know us in the space, and we sponsor events, and we get a lot of inbound. So sellers come to us, and they ask, how do I maximize the valuation? Should I invest more in IP? Should I launch in the US? Stuff like this. So we get a lot of inbound approaches now. So it's changed over time, but yeah, it's a kind of a hybrid.

So what are the employees doing? How are you maximizing what you're doing? And also, just how are you managing them? Because it's always interesting to know somebody's individual management style.

So we have a team who do investments and M&A. So their job is to value deals and then go through the process. And we've got someone who— the first ever application we had at AllSaints was from someone at LSE who is now with us still now, 3 years on. So he's been exposed to over 30 M&A transactions, which is pretty epic for someone who's just— it was their first proper formal job. We've got a team then who do integrations. So they kind of bring on the business. They then bring it into our platform. That's super challenging. Then you've got a team with the finance. You've got the branding, the brand operations team who do a lot of— You know, they basically do the marketing. They're the seller, so they sit in between all the different functions. And then you've got a supply chain team who do demand planning, forecasting, buying, shipping. And then we've got advertising, the social media. They do Google Ads, they do the Amazon advertising. I think, you know, one of the things— I mean, I don't— now we have a management team who are fantastic at managing their respective functions, but I still like to have that proximity to people. And people, I think— I don't know if they like me being too close to what they're doing, but I like being close to what they're doing. I like to know how people are feeling, the challenges they're having. So kind of doing that in a way that I'm not going over, you know, people's heads, but in a way that's kind of— I want to help. So I feel in general As a first-time founder, my management style is very much, to be candid, it's our first time doing this. We've got no idea. Every day is super challenging. Every day, it is new, and I don't know. So when we hired our management team, what we always said in the interview was, we expect you to know. And if you don't know, that's absolutely fine. But you need to help find out, and we'll help you. But very much, you need to help us. And that's the challenge of working with first-time founders, not experienced operators. And they were broadly bought into that. So I kind of, I guess my style is like very keen to help, but also recognising that for me, it's also very new as well. So I can't give you the answer every time type thing.

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So on a more sort of personal thing, yeah, a question we sort of like to ask all of our guests is, you know, you, when you first graduated out of of university, we were talking a bit outside of here, you know, you just didn't feel like you wanted to do something that was very like straight edge, you know, just like a big corporation where all, you know, something like law or consulting, and you always felt like this entrepreneurial spirit was within you or doing something for yourself.

Yeah.

What were like the steps actually making that come to fruition then? Like, you know, you have this sort of feeling within inside you, but how did you know that this was like the right step other than like talking about the sort of time and COVID and everything, what were the actual like mental steps being like, okay, I feel prepared to do this? Because obviously you went into Amazon and you got your experience there, you know, what did that look like?

Well, the truth is, guys, is, you know, the ironic thing is if COVID hadn't happened, I wouldn't be here with you now and I'd be still in America working for Vividree because I was having a great time. And the reason why I say that is because I was putting a kind of, putting my back against the wall to make a decision, quite an uncomfortable position. So why did I make that decision? Because to be honest, there were two options for me right then. One was I moved back to the UK, living with mum and dad during COVID Wasn't looking awesome. Well, it's great living with them, but it wasn't kind of how I thought things were going to plan out. And I was going to have to get a job. There was a thought in my mind potentially back at Amazon, potentially another company in the UK in e-commerce retail, which was cool, but that wasn't what I had planned. and I kind of thought it is literally this, this is the idea. I'm gonna have a huge swing at it because I have to, or I don't really know. I didn't really know what the option was, and I knew it would always work out, it's always fine, but I wasn't super sure I'd be super happy. And I'd come from a place of being cloud nine every day in America, so kind of quite a change in, in, in, in positioning. So if you'd ask me, like, Sam, imagine, you know, would I have done this if I was in a really comfortable position, job, really happy in America? Probably, probably not. Truthfully, probably not. So I think I admire people who kind of take the leap whilst they're in quite comfortable jobs because I think that's hard.

Yeah, it sounds like something from, you know, what you were doing at Amazon, starting your own thing, and sounds like something that you've always been sort of interested in is the branding of a product and the actual, like, sales of it, right? And I want to ask you, as a sort of expert of sorts on branding, what makes, in your opinion, a brand stand out? Like, when you look at who to take on to Olsam, or just even when you were doing Amazon, what really stood out to you and made you want to, you know, buy the products?

Yeah, so I'd caveat, I'm not a branding expert. People, people, you've got great marketers and branders, but I think, um, you know, with my own brand, what I did was I sort of saw— I, I do— have you heard of the brand, um, Smythsons? That they make— they're a luxury stationery brand in the UK. They're really expensive, super overpriced, um, and they sell— they were opening lots of stores in America, so I was tracking their retail stores where they're opening, and they were expanding New York, San Francisco, LA, outside. There's obviously demand for a heritage British brand. And I sort of took elements of what they'd built and added my own kind of twist to it, stuff that I'd seen from other— I read a lot of magazines, Monocle magazine, stuff like this. I see things that I really like and I save them down. And I kind of pulled them all together and created this. But what I'd say is at AllSound, we hired a creative team. Who, um, the way like true creatives think about brand and to see how their mind works and how they think about buying a brand and then actually turbocharging and taking to a new level is really amazing how some creative minds think and the inspiration that drives them to, to come up with these new brands. And, and, um, you know, we had— we bought the number 2 back shaver in America and we had to come up with a brand for that. And we had a— there's a place nearby here, photo studio near where we used— we had models come in and we created a— we got inspiration from other, other, other brands in totally separate categories and kind of took inspiration from that and added our own twist. So my— what I do is really seek inspiration from, from, from products and brands that I think are pretty aspirational, that are quirky, super different. And then I kind of think, can I apply that from that category to this category? What elements can I take And I think that's fine because, by the way, brands do copy each other. They do. And they lift. And they may call it inspiration. But the fact is everyone's looking at each other. And so I'm pretty open about that. That's how I do it.

Yeah, and for a brand to grow, other than being a standout brand, in my head, one thing that would really help take it to the next level is sort of who they know and knowing who they're selling to, right?

Mm-hmm.

Sort of for students as well, you know, we all see the importance of networking and how that can sort of improve your career and your prospects, but in an actual, like, growing a company, like, how is knowing people and what's the process of meeting more people, what does that actually look like to help grow Olsam?

Yeah, that is a great question. So before I answer that, do you both like networking? Do you like it?

I like doing podcasts, which I guess is sort of networking.

Yeah, that's a great way of knowing. You've got an amazing—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But do you, um, if you went to a, uh, like a drinks, like a sort of a, like a, like a— do you like to go into these, these, these?

No, I find it awkward.

I'd rather talk to them about like football or something. I mean, like, yeah, I feel like a lot of people try and be people they're not in these kind of events, which is why like The more informal, the better for me.

Why is that? Why do you not?

You just actually say, and you get the value you want from them, right? And I think some people kind of come to you wanting a solution or wanting them just to go like, oh, I'm going to make your life better, or I'm going to get you to the next step without actually you offering them a personality they'd want to latch onto or anything like that. So I feel like one of the reasons why I think a podcast is a good way of doing it is because you can kind of show, you can build a rapport just by asking engaging questions or having a chat outside the studio, whatever it is. Um, totally.

It also levels the playing field. So if I go to a networking event as a student speaking to loads of people who have done loads of great things, yeah, I don't even feel within my rights to act in a personable way. I'm feeling— I'm acting the most— asking the generic questions that I feel that, yeah, I won't feel embarrassed in asking these, but I will not extract anything really meaningful for anyone.

Yeah.

Um, so I guess Yeah, that's kind of one of the main reasons I really hate networking events.

Yeah, no, I think it's because you're kind of asking people for things. You feel like you're asking for something in a way that's kind of with a person you don't even know. Do you like— do we know each other? Yes. And to your question, I think if I look back and think about how have we got to where we are now, there are people and individuals who we met very early on— even now, we're still very early on our journey— who helped us, I think, because we really got on, and that personal connection was super important. And I think— I'll give an example. So I was on LinkedIn, and we posted our head of M&A role, so head of doing the acquisitions. And this individual reached out to Ollie and I. He was like, hey, guys, I can see you're doing this kind of roll-up. I've been following it in the US. Looks pretty interesting. Would love to chat. Learn about it. And we started— this is really— we're in stealth mode on LinkedIn. You can't see who we are. And we started chatting and had a few emails, and then had a call, and we just got on really well. And this person is super senior in technology investing in Europe. And purely because we genuinely get on really well, and we were just asking him, literally just for advice, he has literally opened doors for us that we couldn't have possibly imagined, both in terms of hiring, in terms of connections to other people to get advice from. And I think, you know, one of the things, you know, I think where I'm going with this is like, if you are, to your point, like just really genuine, you don't go with, you're very open about your intentions and very forthcoming about it, people by and large are really, really helpful. But the hard thing is getting those, getting those introductions and getting those opportunities. And I would say that Ollie and I typically about— if asked that question a year and a half ago, I'd say I hate networking, I'm never going to go. And then I went to America, and I was invited— Ollie and I were invited to a couple of events there. You know, I sat next to one of the co-founders of— sorry, he was the CFO of Revolut, you know, the banking— banking app. And yeah, and I met other people, super senior entrepreneurs, founder of TransferWise, and they are amazing networkers. And it's not just like, you know, they're just like chatting like we are now. They just are very good at meeting people and getting the feel of people because actually, you know, the relationships that you forge in startups, they last for years. Investors, it's 10 years. Employees, hopefully, to exit. So people, you need to like you. And what I'd say is I'm trying to get better at it. I'm still not very good at it, but it's super important to your point. And if you have the opportunity to do it, and do it in a way that's light touch, so whatever feels most natural to you, do it, because you never know when they're going to come and help you later on.

In my opinion, I think when you know that they are there for the same reason as you and you've kind of established, let's cut the bullshit, we're both here to meet people. I feel like once that sort of barrier has been broken, you can actually just start having the conversations you want to have. Because I feel like that's a very— sounds easy, but it's very hard to come across genuine when you know you're going there to play the in the networking game.

Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Super hard. Super hard.

If you've got that contact then at this event or anything like that, how do you develop that and keep that safe for the years to come and almost for a rainy day when you may need it?

Totally. You've got to know— exactly, you've got to update them and share the highs and lows. And one of the challenges as a founder is what do you share and not share? What's appropriate to share and what's kind of, hey, I kind of need your help, we've got this challenge. That's hard. We're still getting that balance right. But you're totally right, because some people, they will help you when you need them absolutely most. And you might only have one option to use that calling card. And we haven't had that. I can't think of any tangible examples of that for me. But you're right, you need to kind of continue just to— but it should feel like, literally, let's grab a— let's grab a coffee, or like, let's, um, you know, grab a beer, whatever it is that feels natural for you guys. Go to a VR game, whatever is like the most normal thing, just do that. And it should feel like it should be fun. It should never be like, I've got to bring my PowerPoint, or I need to like prepare something like that. If it feels like that, probably is not the right, um, the right, uh, the right match. Um, it should be really fun.

Yeah, it feels like a long time ago in this conversation that you said this, and you sort of mentioned this networking event that you went to in America, and you said how good it was for you going abroad and how you would advertise that experience. So what are your thoughts on moving abroad to work? Yeah. And how has that opened your eyes?

So I'm really passionate about this topic, and I don't know if you guys have thought about it or people listening to this have ever thought about— so let me just explain my thought process. So you finish uni. And you're coming to the end of uni and you're kind of like, okay, I, you know, I want to do a job in the UK, I think, but not a big company. I kind of want to, you know, maybe like do a startup. Um, but you know, you don't find anything here that you like and you kind of want a sense of adventure. Where do you go? How do you— what platform is there out there to help you find opportunities abroad? Um, for temporary, not for years, but let's say I want a year. Well, let's say you've broken up with your girlfriend, your job's not going well, I need to change the scene. I think what I learned and what I wanted was a kind of a change of scene and a new adventure, a new challenge. So I went on this program that basically places you with companies, kind of like, I guess, kind of like JumpStart, but in the US. I wanted to get international experience so I could put on my CV I've worked in a US company.

What's it called?

It's called the Mountbatten Program. Amazing experience, but there are downsides to it and upsides to it. Downsides are you share a room with someone. Upside is I shared with an awesome guy. He was wicked. Who was just recently divorced and wanted a change of career. And with him, it's so expensive in America, it was the most appropriate option for me. But they take care of the visa, they place you with jobs. And it works for some people, doesn't work for others. And they're very open about that. But for me, I went for the experience. And I love New York. And as a city, there is just so much going on, amazing opportunities, bigger than London, amazing startup hub. And you get to work in the US, a US company, and see how they do things.

Yeah, how did you— I mean, in different countries, I imagine there's almost a different approach and philosophy to work.

Yeah.

I think I worked abroad for a bit in Canada, in Spain, and for me, I just— it's not evidently clear what you take from them, but just that diversity, diversity of workforce and knowing sort of different brains and different approaches to everything. I imagine that's really paid off for you as an entrepreneur now.

Yeah, I think— I like to think I had a bit of an exposure to how American companies think. And as I said, we've got a US company we acquired. We acquire a lot of US brands, and one of the teams, they still work for us in California, they only have 14 days holiday. With Olsan, they get 20, which is obviously still not quite what we want in the UK, but amazing for the US. And the work ethic is pretty impressive, extremely commercial, the way they think, the way they think about, and this is actually, this is where I get into this, the way they think about numbers and growth and scale, I would never— if I were doing a consumer goods product, I wouldn't launch it in the UK. I'd just launch it in America to begin with. Because to give you the way they think about— for in our space, we're doing over $30 million now in sales. And for them, they're thinking like $100 million is kind of the equivalent. It's just the sense of ambition and scale. And the second thing is the way they look at risk and failure. I'm sure, I don't know if you've heard about this before, but the way they think about failure is like, it's like you've taken loads of learnings and it's a good thing. Obviously, ideally not fail, but it's like, don't worry, Peter, you failed, but tell them about it, like why and what went wrong. Whereas in the UK, it's like, it's not great. It's kind of a bit of a bad smell. And that's such a shame. But in the US, they celebrate in success And they all celebrate failure. And that's so energizing. And that's what I love about these founders is a lot of these entrepreneurs, they fail, fail, and then boom, to the moon, smash it. And that's what I kind of wish we had a bit more of here. But that's why it's so energizing. If anyone listening wants to do their own company or wants to kind of see what I'm talking about, just do try and get out there and see that.

And this conversation, we've covered so many topics and so many different stages of your career. The way we like to wrap up the episode is asking the question of, when you first graduated from university, what did success look like to you then? And now you're actually, you know, you're an entrepreneur, you've got your own company, and you look into the future, what does success look like for you now and going forward?

So I think when I left uni, success for me was getting a job in a sector that was growing, that was going to matter in years to come. E-commerce wasn't going anywhere. Back in, I think, 2014, 2015, Amazon wasn't— I mean, it was still huge, don't get me wrong, but I knew this company was going places. All the news was covering it. So I wanted to ride a wave that was going to be part of an explosive sector, was number 1. And then 2, I think, just like at the time, success was riding behind a really supportive, successful boss and finding someone who was like, if I stay close to him or her, I'm going to go places. And I call it success because finding those individuals, it's not easy. You've got to navigate. It's not easy to do. So those are the two things. Now, success is because of what we're trying to build, and I think success for me is having a constant need learning is the main thing. I would like to— I obviously would love to succeed, but if I don't, I know I have learned so much from this, I will be successful at some point. So if it's not this, I will be. This will be successful. Will it be the most successful thing I do? I don't know. But I know the learnings have been so valuable and will continue to be valuable. That for me is important. The day that I'm kind of like, it's just repetitive, that isn't ideal. And then I think the other thing, success now is like, I think I want to build a place where people love working and really, really are genuinely happy what they do here. We have like employee surveys and stuff. And success is building a company where people generally are like, this is awesome. And I am happy personally working here. That's hard to do. But if I can do that and make people genuinely enjoy it, I'd be pretty pleased with that.

Amazing. And one last thing, we're just introducing it, piloting it today for this episode.

All right.

Each episode's guests share amazing advice, but what about learning from each other in terms of the guests? Would you want to share one piece of advice for the next guest? We don't even know who that's going to be yet, um, that they can maybe take into their own life.

Oh, it's probably the first one. Um, yes. My advice would be, and it's pretty trite to say this because it's obviously pretty obvious, but, um, you know, it's, it's, um, don't enjoy the ride. Because I look back on the last couple of years and there are times where it's worked out and I wish I'd enjoyed it more. It would have been more fun for everyone around me if I just slightly, um, As I said, things do work out. They do. Everyone has a vested interest to make sure it does. So even when it's tough, assuming they're an entrepreneur or a business owner, but even if they're not, just enjoy the journey you're on. It does work out.

Thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I think students all around our listenership will take so much from this. And so yeah, thanks so much for the chat. And it's been a pleasure.

Cheers, mate.

Thanks very much, Peter, for having me. It's been an awesome, awesome experience, and I hope it was of any value. If anyone is interested in a career at AllSam, please do reach out. We're always looking for, you know, exciting, exciting individuals to come join our company. So please reach out. It's Sam at AllSam Group.