Samuel Nicklin, Consultant @ McKinsey

Sam, welcome to the podcast. If you could start off by telling us a bit about what you're doing at uni, what you've planned so far for your future, and what you've done so far in your career.

Yeah, of course. Just first of all, want to say a massive thank you for having me on the show. I've really enjoyed the last few eps, um, and so it's a real pleasure to be invited on. Um, what I am currently doing in my life is I'm in my third year of a degree at the LSE I'm doing maths with econ there, um, and I've just come off the back of a summer internship at McKinsey. Um, I'll be returning to that role upon graduation, which I'm really looking forward to. And the path to where I am now, um, has been laced with lots of really enjoyable different activities, the main one being entrepreneurship, and probably the most formative one and the most pertinent to the podcast. Um, But alongside entrepreneurship, other things that are relevant were my sort of path through the sort of traditional careers, spring weeks, and then a number of sports both at uni and school, which I'm really looking forward to diving into.

Yeah, so you're talking about entrepreneurship there. If you could just tell us a little bit more about that, because I know you created a startup while at university, which is a tough feat. How's that experience been? What was the company about?

Yes, it was actually probably the, the highlight of my uni experience so far. Um, like you, Peter, I joined in 2020 when like COVID was kicking off, and so actually there was very little in the way of like formal activities and formal, um, things to participate in. And so actually entrepreneurship like fit that environment so well because, um, it's something that you actually just do on your own and it's independent of the environment that surrounds you. Um, so I started a food subscription business with two of my flatmates, the people who live just like directly next to me. Um, and that over time pivoted and changed, um, uh, to the point where we then got invested in by a large VC firm. Um, and we were actually more focused on doing fintech for the restaurant industry. Um, And we did that throughout first year and also for the first part of second year. And I'm no longer doing that. We, as fun as it was and as helpful as it has been for my career, we tested our business model using the funding that we got, realised that it actually wasn't going to work in the market. And so we've actually decided to return the remaining funds to the VC firm and hopefully when we have again a good business concept and a good founding team and the right, like, conditions for us personally, we're going to be able to build something really special. But, um, at the moment I'm focusing on joining McKinsey and starting working there when I graduate.

So even though it didn't go maybe the way you wanted to, it was an invaluable experience, you'd say, right?

Yeah, no, it was, and it was incredibly helpful for, um, traditional careers as well.

Yeah. How would you contrast that experience of doing the entrepreneurship route versus your summer internship with McKinsey?

So I think, like, there are two parts for, um, especially for university students who are, like, prospective, who are potentially choosing between a traditional career like consulting and entrepreneurship. I think that the two parts are, first of all, what are the differences between applying for consulting and starting a business? And then the second part is, what is the difference between actually working consulting and starting a business? And I think if you're someone who is potentially coming from a background of sports or is more of someone who potentially takes pleasure in the execution of things or the execution of a process specifically, then I think actually applying for something like consulting is great because it's like the goalposts are clear. You actually know specifically when you're going to be tested. And you know the standard that you have to be at in order to succeed. And I think for entrepreneurship, none of that is there. And the biggest, hardest part at uni is actually trying to set your own goalposts and give yourself purpose. And so I think if you're someone who thrives outside of rules and is actually someone who usually, like, seeks hacks around, like, the traditional system and, like, maybe isn't as focused on the execution of a process, then entrepreneurship is perfect for you. And then in terms of the work itself, I think it's just the scale is different. When you're on a startup, you're making strategy decisions, but it's all bootlegged, and you're not actually doing it potentially with cutting-edge market insights and real data. You're actually just doing it off maybe gut feel and your first 5 customers' feedback. Whereas with consulting, you're doing it for the biggest companies in the world, and you're doing it with the latest market insights from research teams around the world. So it's different scales. One's more personalized, one's sort of more impactful. For on like a global scale, but they're both super exciting, I think.

Yeah, so you've put entrepreneurship to the side for now, but maybe go back into it in the future. Why is it you've chosen to go into consulting as a postgrad and not entrepreneurship?

Yeah, it's really a good question because I think it's something that I've been reflecting on, and some of the people I did the internship with actually choosing to return to entrepreneurship instead of returning to McKinsey. Um, for me, I actually just felt like I was landed in this environment where I was surrounded by people who could explain things incredibly well to me and also were really great at their jobs. And I think what I was saying earlier about if you're focused on entrepreneurship, maybe you're not as, um, maybe you're not as much of a fan of just focusing on execution and just executing on things. I think actually working in a place for 2 years like McKinsey teaches you so much about how to execute and just do things really well. And I think that's going to then be invaluable when I return, hopefully, to entrepreneurship in a few years' time. And I also think it gives me a break from having to give myself purpose, because I think you have to self-motivate a lot at uni, whereas I think there's something appealing actually about being in a workplace where you have a few years to breathe and do what's asked of you and then make a decision about what you actually want to do.

In terms of that, experience at McKinsey itself, what would you say are the main skills you've taken from it, and like, how has that experience doing summer internship, you know, developed you as a person and made you prepared to go into the workforce after?

I guess that's a great question. I think the— I was actually surprised by the end of the internship about which skills are important. I think the skills that were ultimately important were leadership, structure and organization of time. Um, and the skills that maybe actually weren't as important were the ones that you think of when you think of consulting, which are things like PowerPoint, Excel, um, and maybe like the more hard skills, like the hardest skills. Um, because I think the best people were the people who were able to set clear boundaries, because consulting and banking, as your listeners probably know, they they will take as many hours of your life as you can offer them. And so the, the actual skill of it is being able to make a sustainable career out of that. And the people who do a great job of it protect not only their time, but the time of the people in their team. And so I actually came away pretty inspired because I felt like that was a skill that I actually really cared about improving on way more than maybe improving my PowerPoint skills, because I think that actually is one that's so transferable into entrepreneurship, but also just into any any purpose or like any action that you're trying to take or anything that you're collaborating on, it's so useful to have that skill of leading.

And just to quickly dive back into that entrepreneurship experience, you probably wouldn't say this yourself, but you did extremely well managing to get your company Foody to get a £1.4 million valuation. And also you got invested in by one of the biggest VC firms. Could you just tell us about that experience and you know, why that was worth doing, why you would recommend it to anyone to do.

Yeah, I think so. There are two lenses you can look at it through. Like, if you're listening to this and you're someone who already has decided entrepreneurship's for them, then it's clearly a great thing to do because I genuinely do believe there is no better training ground for learning entrepreneurship-related skills than a startup. Um, and if you're listening to this podcast through the lens of wanting to go in a more tradition— into a more traditional career like consulting, then again, it's unbelievably useful because the, the skills you pick up in entrepreneurship are so far-reaching, and it also shows such proactivity. Um, and it means that whatever size company you're joining, you're going to be able to bring something to the table, um, because you've been in the position of your manager at some point. 'Cause no doubt at some point in your entrepreneurship journey, you're gonna hopefully be able to take on sort of an intern or something for the first time. And that actually is such a useful experience to be on the other side of the table and understand like what it's like to be a leader and trying to get sort of assistance from an intern or like have an intern be helpful. And then again, when you are applying to companies, you can sort of with, with a more useful perspective, look at it as like, what can I do to make myself a useful intern?

Entrepreneurship is just one of the experiences you can talk about when you're going into an interview, and albeit a great one, but you've also done a lot of other experience, you know, be it Spring Weeks or internships. What do you think is the importance of doing so much experience at university, and would you have done anything differently?

Okay, so I think like my— this will be my number one message of the whole podcast. Is like, you should look— especially if you're in first year right now, you should look at your life and you should be thinking, how can I live my happiest version of my life while boosting my career or my CV or whatever it is at the same time? And so I think internships, especially spring internships, are the easiest way to add credibility to your CV, immediate credibility, because you'll have brand names on there. And I think people often make the mistake of in first year, especially at the top universities where Spring Weeks is like a culture there, of applying to the hardest ones that everyone's talking about. But I think actually applying to the ones that are slightly further off the beaten track mean that are actually also ones that you're more likely to get. They give you the same level of credibility at a much lower cost to you and also it's a much lower risk. So that's my number one, like the first thing that I want to say. And the second thing is in terms of like building yourself through university while also having a good time, I think like there are so many hacks you can put into your life that make your normal day-to-day life something that's suddenly appealing to a company. And so just running through like ideas of how to do that, I think if you analyze the things that you take pleasure in doing, you can actually very easily find ways to turn those into things that are going to then be impressive to companies. So I, for example, play in a 5-a-side team every Tuesday evening, and LSE, the uni I'm at, doesn't have a 5-a-side football team. So if you were trying to boost your CV while doing exactly the same thing that you do already in your normal life, you would set up the LSE 5-a-side football team, and you would just continue business as usual and then suddenly be able to demonstrate leadership. And there are so many other things like that. So any, any case of like, if you go to the gym, it's— you're better off instead of training 5 times a week in the gym and having no recognition outside of like a fantastic rig, you should be aiming to have, um, some sort of sport that you can put that effort into, um, be it like the weightlifting club at your uni, because again, that demonstrates to people that you're doing it through the formal institutionalised channels. And I think that's like a massively beneficial way to live your life at uni and get sort of credit for things that potentially other people aren't getting credit for.

Yeah, just to latch on to that point about happiness and how important that is. At university, it does seem at times, especially in Fergie now, that there's so much you've got to do, whether it's applying for internships, applying for graduate roles, or actually just getting the degree done. I mean, how do you keep yourself outside of the work you do happy? What are some habits you do that make you motivated to keep doing what you're doing?

Yeah, so there are the obvious ones, like the science-backed ones, of if you exercise regularly, and especially if you exercise as part of a team sport, you will massively get like healthy dopamine from that. And then again, with sleeping in a good routine and eating a healthy diet, Um, those are all the ones that are guaranteed to make a difference to you. The one for me that I think is super helpful at university, because you have to be so self-motivated at uni, is placing yourself in groups of people where there's a base level of like hunger and motivation, and also just like curiosity about the world, because those people will remind you on a daily basis of like why the world's an exciting place to be and live in. And I think the exercise and the food and everything, that's great. That gives you a baseline level of satisfaction. But if you're looking for purpose, the best way to find it is to just surround yourself with people who are also on the hunt for purpose and also curious about how they can have a positive social impact.

There are a lot of positive impacts that come from that. Yeah. And I think it's a really important thing to do. But there is also, you know, a negative effect that could be that you don't appreciate how well you're actually doing yourself. And I think with someone like you, that's— you've got McKinsey to go back to, you've got this established career path. How do you keep challenging yourself to progress in your career, but like do it in a healthy way, you know, with the right amount of balance, where it's like you're not forever comparing yourself to the people you're surrounded with, you know, you're just doing it off your own accord?

Yeah, I think like, and you actually see it so much, especially in third year with the people who like should have sort of already had it sorted. Like they on paper have it already sorted. And I'm like close friends with someone who just like keeps going back for more and more and more because it gets to the point where like applying for jobs becomes your like niche skill and your hobby. And like, I think at that point—

Can't say that's mine.

Yeah. At that point, like it's something that you should be focusing— like I think there's diminishing marginal returns to it at that point. You actually will realize—

Did you do economics?

Yes. Funny that, isn't it? I speak in maths. I think that the main problem with that is that you actually are just sort of jumping from similar job to similar job. And I think it doesn't really provide you with the same satisfaction. And the hard part of that is basically shifting your personality away from being like a careers personality. And actually thinking about things that sort of ignite curiosity within you that isn't necessarily like related at all to your career. And it's completely okay if it is related to your career. But I think that the great thing right now is that you can, like for me, like you can spend time basically just chasing or like pulling the thread of curiosity on different topics. So like at the moment I'm really into lab-grown meat And like, I can basically just like Google lab-grown meat for hours a day because I'm not applying for jobs.

For people that don't know what that means, like myself, what does that mean?

So at the moment, like, we have early stages of technology which let us take a cell from a cow, for example, and then put it in a bioreactor and just grow essentially like a clump of beef without having to kill any animals.

Wow.

And it has the exact, or almost exactly the same, flavor profile, like nutritional profile, everything. And like that itself will basically— I mean, not solve climate change, like there's so many other things that contribute to the climate crisis, but it's going to massively decrease CO2 emissions. It also just like eliminates animal suffering in the agriculture industry because we're no longer having to kill animals for for their meat. And then the more exciting edge cases that I'm into at the moment, slightly off topic, the more exciting like edge case at the moment is that you can create meats that like are not traditionally farmed in bulk. So quail and alligator hybrid meat, for example, is a meat that like tastes apparently better than chicken, beef, any of the others. But at the moment it's impossible to farm, obviously. And so we're going to be able to grow that.

Does feel like it's become a bit of a Joe Rogan episode in some ways. But no, I mean, obviously I think what I would take from that, and obviously I think it's a great idea, but it's the idea of having a passion outside university. It's very important, and I would say a lot of people struggle to find out what they're good at. Like, you know, to some people it comes naturally. I mean, I don't know if you have any natural skills with— that's why you're like, okay, I should be a consultant, but In terms of, like, if you do know what you're good at, how do you keep finding out, you know, what would you recommend to people to find out what you're actually good at so you can translate it into career?

So I think for this, there are, like, two approaches. The first one is if you already know what you're good at, or roughly the component part of what you're good at, so whether that's, like, the fundamental part of being able to work hard or being able to think on a big scale. If you think that you're— if you think that you've got one of those core skills, then you can apply that to lots of different things and you should think about the potential applications of that. If you don't really know what you're good at, something I've been doing actually this year is every week I try out a different sort of way of living my life. So the reason I got so into lab meat is because 2 weeks ago I went vegan for just a week just to see what it was like, and then realized like actually like how problematic it was for vegans to not be able to eat any meat. And there's so many things like that where if you actually just push yourself in a slightly different direction, your whole perspective then shifts and you can actually see things for potentially what they are. And so you start seeing things instead of from 2D, as you start moving around more and moving your perspective, you start seeing things in 3D. And so I think that's like The best thing you can do is just like every week do like a different version of your life, like one slight tweak, and then you'll start to figure out, okay, that was actually really easy for me to study nonstop for 9 hours a day for an entire week.

Yeah.

So I should go into something that's like endurance-based.

Yeah, I think a lot of people, you know, this idea of like rabbit holing, you know, whether it's like on YouTube or social media, like everyone's guilty of it because but you can actually do that with things that can be productive to your career. That's a bit of a life hack in itself. There is nothing wrong, it's not a waste of time if you're genuinely thinking this could translate into a career somehow, or everything you're saying now, that might be something you end up doing in the future, you have no idea. So I think it's a great thing to do. You start university, like you said earlier, in lockdown. It's a weird place to find yourself, and you've just come off the back of school where you've got all this accountability from your teachers, you know, your parents, and you're just at university, nobody's holding you to account. How have you developed a work ethic, and how have you taken yourself out of any of the habits that might have, you know, started in lockdown and, you know, found the drive that you've got right now?

So my advice is different for depending on what stage of uni you're at. If you're in your sort of like later years of an undergrad, um, and you haven't secured career experience that's going to make it easy for you to get a job straight out of undergrad, then this advice is not relevant to you. But if you're earlier on, I actually think if you're going to university to get a good career, a 2:1 is so close to a first in terms of what doors it unlocks that you should be— your goal academically should be to minimize the amount of hours you spend on your degree to get a 2:1. And so it's not a case so much of self-motivating in the respect of like, how can I push myself to work really hard? The actual hack is how can I optimize my current routine to work as little as possible to get a 2:1? And then outside of that, follow your curiosity like I'm saying, and, um, focus on setting yourself up for a career. 'Cause I think you do get so much free time at uni that you can do that.

Were there any atypical experiences you've done that have become very helpful in your career that you wish to pursue now?

The one that comes to mind is in my first year summer, I worked for 2 months as a summer camp counselor at a US summer camp, and I lived like in a tent in the woods for the entire time. And I think the ability to like fake enthusiasm and fake high energy to try and get buy-in from kids is actually something that's incredibly applicable when you actually are doing something, um, in the traditional career route. So I think like showing up to interviews or showing up to team meetings when you're an intern and exuding like enthusiasm and curiosity and energy is such a useful habit And it actually isn't something that will always be natural for people because your energy levels throughout a day will vary. And so having it on tap, I think, is a really useful thing that I picked up when I was working there. And I think I bring that actually quite a lot into my normal life. So yeah, I actually do really recommend doing something in your summer, especially in first year, that's slightly off the beaten track, especially if it's like a job where it's something where you actually will earn money and you'll have a good time while you're doing it.

In terms of your actual career now, you've done that McKinsey summer internship and all these, all these skills you've developed thus far have helped you out there. How did you not get imposter syndrome while you were there though, despite all the confidence you had in yourself?

I think there were two things that I found super helpful when it came to combating imposter syndrome, because it is something that I think like everyone will struggle with at some point. The first one was I heard a quote by Jimmy Carr on a podcast where he speaks about imposter syndrome, and he makes the point that actually you really do want to have imposter syndrome when you're young because you're putting yourself in challenging environments where you're actually just learning more and you're surrounded by inspirational people. And that's usually the environments in which you get imposter syndrome. So I think like The first point is like really make the most of it because it's like a really useful feeling to have. And then the second thing is that actually you can sometimes prepare your way out of imposter syndrome. Because I think imposter syndrome, um, it's a— it can be like a useful pressure for you to like really try and study the people who seem to be doing really well and try and figure out what the secret sauce is that you can then copy. And I think like showing up to McKinsey, like the first few weeks, I was like, okay, some of these people are really like top-tier communicators. And I think like I then had to consciously make the effort to be like, what do they do that's better than what I do? And then try and incorporate that actively into my own life. And then over time that becomes unconscious. So I think like, yeah, imposter syndrome actually is a really good thing. And if you're experiencing it, recognize that it's positive and then also work really hard to try and not feel like an imposter because that's gonna, like, that's where progress is made.

On this podcast, I'm trying to get on people that I deem have been very successful, and whether you are going to admit or not, you know, I want to try and emulate success like yours. Is your definition in yourself of success the same as when you started university, or has it changed now you're at the end of your university experience?

Yeah, I think it hasn't changed massively. The main thing that's changed is now that I kind of feel like I've got like the stamp of approval that I think I was seeking and I think like lots of people seek when they're like starting out in careers. I think I'm more open now to doing things that are like potentially less conventional and potentially less traditionally celebrated career paths because I think It's very easy when you see celebrities be like, ignore what people say and like follow your heart. Like, it's very easy for them to say that because I think they have proven themselves in like the conventional arena. Um, and so I actually think it's like actually a good thing to do to try and prove to yourself that you can make it in the conventional world of careers. Like, chase down like a typical career path that has a clear structure for maybe like the first year of your career. And then when you have that sense of like, okay, I've done this thing and I can always return to it, then you really are able to open your mind to things that again, like you're curious about or that you think are actually going to be like socially beneficial and socially impactful. Because those are the things that I think recently I've suddenly like, like a light bulb's gone off and I'm like, now that I'm no longer trying to like prove to anyone anything in my career, like I can actually use this career as a vehicle for good. And I'm just going to shout out a website website that I think is super useful if you're a listener. Um, it's called 80000hours.org, I think. Um, if you search 80,000 Hours on Google, it'll come up. It's this entire— it's like a foundation that's well-funded, and its entire aim is to help people who are university educated typically to use their careers for social good. And they have this entire guide that basically walks you through how to analyze like what career fits your skill set and fits your passion. So like, it's genuinely like a game-changing resource. So I definitely Google that.

What I took from what you were saying there is that you sort of, when you look at your idols, you think, God, they're doing so many cool things all the time. Like, how do I ever get to that place in life?

Yeah.

But people don't see that initial hard work they've done to get that like foundation of success. Like, Once you've got that, you've got, like, in yourself, you've got so much more freedom to, like, justify looking into other things that you may deem pointless before, or, like, you know, waste of time, but, and then enjoy them way more in turn. Sort of to wrap up, I want you to give me 3 words to describe your university experience so far, and what are you most excited for about being a postgraduate?

So I think 3 words that can sort of sum up especially like in a career, from a career perspective, my time at uni. The first one is people. The second one is probably curiosity. And the third one is arbitrary, because I think the first one, people, um, the biggest thing that you can do at uni that's going to be game-changing is just like, just drop yourself in a group of people that you would put money on having like a successful life and having a happy life. Like, it's so incredibly easy to do and also will just make your life great.

That's what I'm trying to do with this podcast.

And then the second one is curiosity, because I think that actually is the essence of life, just chasing things down that you are naturally interested in. There's something like— usually when you keep digging, you hit a bedrock of genuine truth. And then the final thing, uh, arbitrary. I think one common misconception amongst uni students when it comes to their career is that like anyone really knows what they wanted to do. Like, I actually at the start of second year just completely arbitrarily picked consulting because I just thought like I have to pick something because you actually can never really do everything really well. And so my final thing with arbitrary is like arbitrarily pick just one thing, especially if you're in first year or second year, do it really well, prove to yourself that whatever the subject matter is, you can do really, like you can execute on it really well. And then once you've done something really well, not only is that a great signal for the next thing you want to do, but also you'll know for sure if that was something that you enjoyed or if that was something you didn't enjoy.

And what would be the key underlying messages you'd like listeners to take away of them from today?

So I think, like, if you were going to listen to one minute of the podcast, it'd be the next one minute, because I think the, the three key messages that I'm trying to get across here, um, number one is that when you're in your first or second year of university and you're thinking about graduate careers, you should really just arbitrarily pick one thing, apply just to that one industry, proved yourself that you can be successful regardless what the subject matter is, and then test the hypothesis of whether you'd like it or not. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, if you're really going to university and you're just focused on getting a good career out of your time at university and having a good time, then I think you should be trying to academically optimize for a 2:1 with the least amount of time input as possible. And then the third and final thing is what I was speaking about at the beginning of the podcast, where you can hack your life and all of the things you do already for fun, you can make them into a career-boosting activity. So if you're playing in a 5-a-side team already, start that as a university club, and then you're demonstrating leadership, um, in a formal way that you wouldn't really be able to speak about otherwise, uh, in an interview on your CV. So those are the 3 key messages, I think, for the listener at home.

And 3 very important messages, in my opinion. So thank you for coming on today, Sam. I think it's a little bit of a different one where you're not actually graduated, but I found it really refreshing as someone, you know, in the exact same position, both in third year, just to sort of talk about how we're feeling about our future, the work we've done so far, and just being curious about the careers, being excited for it. So that's what I'd takeaway from today. And yeah, thanks for coming on, mate.

It's genuinely been a pleasure. Cheers, Peter Wood.

Cheers, mate.