Samuel Ola, Co-Founder @ Nestwork

Welcome back to yet another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Sam. Sam, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thank you, Peter. Thanks for having me, man.

That's a, it's a real pleasure. And you are the co-founder of Nestwork. And before we get into your whole career journey, you've done a lot at a very young age. I think it's a A good place to start is, what is Nestwork?

Great question. Um, so Nestwork's vision is to build an AI career coach that helps anyone become whoever they want to be. Um, today we've launched a platform that changed the way you search for jobs. So you can use natural language to basically type in, I want a job that has this and has that and that's that, and then it returns a bunch of jobs in like a Tinder format that you can swipe through And then we've built tools to help you track your progress. So we've built an application tracker that's an upgrade from your typical Google Sheets or Excel spreadsheet. And we're building all these tools to help get you to where you want to go. But we're very focused on figuring out where you want to go in the first place. So it's that career discovery and then also improving the chances of getting there. So that's how we like to describe it. It's an AI career coach to get you to where you want to be. We'll help you discover where you want to go to and then do everything we can to help you get there. Um, we launched a year ago. We have 7,500 members on the platform, uh, VC-backed, and honestly just really passionate about what we do. Like, to me, it's more so about hearing someone saying, oh, I got that offer. Um, that's what makes it all worth it.

Yeah, I think that leads me nice on to my next question, which is obviously there's a passion element there. But you've worked at Spotify, you've done internships with JP Morgan, Financial Times. You know, from the outside looking in, you could have gone into almost anything after graduating from Loughborough. And, you know, being a founder at this age comes with its difficulties, you know, being taken seriously. You know, maybe you've not experienced enough to, to be a founder. But why is this, you know, at the time in your life now, like, why is it such a big problem for you to solve?

Oh, good question. Um, honestly, I think it's because of things that I just observed growing up. I realized very quickly that it's, it's not just about having like a dream. For example, I wanted to become a professional footballer from like a very young age, and I had a lot of the passion and motivation but didn't necessarily have all the steps to get there. I didn't really know, you know, where to go, who to speak to, etc. So I pretty much just forced my way to figuring out, like, how do I go pro? Literally would sign up for trials myself, you know, figure out a way to go to these trials or message coaches and things like that. And I made some success. You know, I ended up playing for York City, and as my career was about to start, taking off when I was like 16, 17, I got a hip injury and pretty much had to have surgery. Long story short, my football career ended and I was just like, okay, what do I do with my life now? I don't really know what to do next. So I didn't necessarily want to go to uni because all I was focused on was football. So when I got to uni, it was like, okay, I need to now figure out what to do with my career. I tried out finance. I tried out marketing, you know, I, I did quite a lot of things. And eventually I found what I love to do, which is just building products, which is why I went into product management. But ultimately it was going through that process of not knowing what I wanted to do, eventually then figuring out an idea of what I wanted to do, which was product management, and then figuring out how to get there. There was like, okay, there's so many of my friends who are like, Sam, like, I don't know the first thing to do when it comes to applications. I don't really know how to create a good CV, or how did you hear about this role or this company? I just realized that there's a lot of people that have no idea what they're doing, just like I didn't. And I think that that needs to change. I think that we shouldn't be leaving people stranded because that just means people don't end up fulfilling their potential. And I think having that experience with football where I wasn't able to realize my dream, it was like, I don't know, I think I just have a personal agenda to make sure that every— like, no one has to go through that disappointment of not being able to, to do what they, what they desire or dream of.

Yeah, it's so interesting because, um, I think for you to really actually start building your career and, and really care about it, that I believe there's some— unless you're like incredibly proactive and a serial executor, which not everybody is, there is an element of needing to have your back against the wall and, you know, what, what next, you know? And, and it's very hard to prompt that in first year university, but yeah, football almost gave you that, you know, going into university. It was like you weren't just going to university for this traditional, you know, drinking experience, find out what you want to do there. It was like, okay, if I'm going to do this You know, you've already gone through the whole, like, trials and tribulations of not knowing or not being able to do exactly what you did. Um, yeah, I wonder, yeah, actually at university, what— you've got all these amazing internships and you've got, you know, these amazing jobs, but when you first arrived, what was it that was, like, really difficult about building your career in those initial stages of university?

Yeah, I think it was knowing what to do, as in like we discussed this all the time as a team, like when we're pitching. The founding story was simple. I came into uni, my co-founder Pobo, he was initially going to LSE, and you know, people going to LSE are starting up spring week group chats before they even get their A-level results, so he was plugged into all of that. And he eventually went to Loughborough, was telling me and other people like, guys, let's be applying to Spring Weeks. I was like, what's that? I made my first application. I remember it was to like an EUI position and everyone else, we had like a WhatsApp group chat. Everyone else got in and I didn't. I was like, how dare they reject me? Like, what is this? I think that was the first experience. I just realized that, okay, this is a game that I definitely shouldn't underestimate. So I think it was knowing Poboh who introduced me to that, you know, sense of like going after this and like getting that rejection and then just using that as an opportunity to quickly iterate, get better, and like figure out how to actually eventually get a role. I would say that made a ton of the, uh, of the difference because I literally just know so many people that go into their final year of uni, whether they've done 3 or 4-year courses, and it's like, right, okay, now I should start thinking about my career, where it's like, you should have been thinking about it since day 1, week 1 of uni if you want to, I guess, give yourself the best start. So yeah, it was definitely that exposure to information early that made the difference for me, because if I didn't, I honestly don't know if my journey would have been the same. To be very honest.

Yeah, I think exposure to different thoughts and being a product of your environment is like, you know, you hear it all the time, but you don't really understand the importance of it until you're living and breathing it, right? Um, and I think, yeah, for you, I guess that's a big transition coming from, you know, people that would— the people in your immediate surroundings all really want to become footballers, and then I think a lot of people get lost there In terms of your actual mindset to want to be surrounding yourself with people and actually being hurt rather than— and then motivated rather than put down by that first rejection to you, why— where do you think that mindset comes from for you?

Honestly, I think that is, um, that's something that I think is innate to me. I think I've just always had that idea of like, okay, you know, I have a chip on my shoulder, I have something to prove. You know, if someone rejects me, it's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna prove to you that you shouldn't have rejected me. And I think it's healthy and also unhealthy in the sense that it drives me to become a better version of myself. But then at times it can just be like, okay, it's not everything that you need to be. To be great at. As far as I know, that's just how I've been. I think part of it might be, you know, growing up. So I'm a first-generation immigrant. Family moved from Nigeria to UK when I was 7. And it's like coming to this country, it's like you don't know that many people. I was the only Black kid in my primary school, high school. And it was like, okay, I almost like definitely was always one that, that stood out and also didn't fit in. And I think that might— I'm not entirely sure, but I think that might have given me that sense of, okay, um, I'm not just gonna get things. I have to really go out and, and, um, and be like the best version of myself because like nobody's gonna hand it to me. And also It, yeah, it's just not, um, what am I trying to say? I think, yeah, being the odd one out made me just feel like I had something to prove. I don't necessarily know why that connection was made, but that's, that's my lived experience, really. Yeah.

And then your answer just then, you portrayed an element of storytelling. Um, and, and, you know, so for me, speaking to you now, I'm that bit more bought into your mission because of it. And I wonder, when it came to, yeah, going from EY to then actually landing those jobs, and even now with your business, you're, you know, actually persuading people that this is how careers education should be done. How important is that element of storytelling in, in landing, you know, those jobs?

Oh, and getting those—

yeah, getting the roles, getting the clients.

Yeah, great question again. So I remember my managers at Spotify, one of the things that they said was the reason why they really, really liked me and decided to bring on board was in my interview I literally made a presentation on all the products that I'd built, the ones that had some success, the ones that had failed, and they loved the fact that I could talk like I could talk with a lot of depth around, you know, what went wrong, what I learned from that, and then also how that's factored into the next thing that I did. Because I'm someone who— I'm very active, like, I love starting things, and I've done quite a lot of— put my hands in a lot of things. And, you know, there's just that very quick feedback loop of failing and then getting better and eventually succeeding that they really liked. And I think even within our storytelling at Nestwork, for investors, it's like, we tried this initially, it got this success, this is what we learned from it, and we believe that based on our learnings, we can, you know, take it to the next level. And same with employers, it's like, you know, currently today, this is the experience for students. We've lived it ourselves. We've seen how frustrating it can be when it comes to figuring out what you want to do, finding the right role, make an application, making a good quality application. And like, it's a very frustrating experience. So it's like, here's a better way to do it. We've seen it ourselves. It worked for us when we were doing applications. It's worked for people that we've mentored and, you know, helped to coach to get roles. And, and we believe that it can help you hire the best talent. So that's, yeah, definitely a big part of our, of our storytelling.

It's interesting, when I was at school, um, I was kind of just told, if you get into UCL, you'll be fine. Yeah, if you, if you tick these boxes, you'll be fine. Yeah, it'll all work itself out. And I think it comes— you get a realization at one point where, um, being as robotic in your attitude towards careers, like, okay, I'm amazing at this, I'm amazing at this, it doesn't, it doesn't add any, like, separation from the next person.

Yeah.

Um, and I think actually opening yourself up to the realization that failure is essential and a good thing— yeah, it's, it's quite a daunting thing, right? Like, you know, putting yourself out there with that social pressure or whatever it is at university, doing something against the grain, obviously. And now in the position that you're in, I think a lot of people will be like, oh well, Okay, that makes complete sense. But how do you actually start becoming comfortable with that experimental phase in your career?

Yeah, I'm definitely not comfortable with it. It's something that is hard to face. You know, you don't want to fail. You don't want to get that rejection. Like, every rejection from a job application is painful. I take it me personally. Same with reaching out to investors. But I think it's more so about like, what, what can you learn from that experience and do better next time? Um, yeah, I think it's, it's as simple as that because I guess I'm not one to dwell on that failure for very long. Like, I'll accept it very quickly and be like, I I'll get them next time. Um, and like a little bit of it is delusion in the sense that you might not get them next time, but if you actually just reflect and think on, okay, what could you have done better, it's like you go into the next meeting, the next pitch, and like at least there's something that you've done that's better. Um, yeah, I think— does that answer that question?

Yeah. Um, and I think not for the sense of vanity? Because I know you made a post when you graduated. Yeah, yeah, with all the accolades, everything you want. But you probably found it quite uncomfortable to, to put that 100% post out. And I think more so this question is related to knowing when something is worth sticking to and really trying it out. Like, how do you know when you've got it good in your career? And how do you know it's like Okay, for this work, like, how, how did you like differentiate it from the other jobs and industries that you tried out? It's like, yeah, I'm gonna put my all into this and not just keep trying other things.

Yeah, I think for that one it just became, it became a deep obsession. I think your point on, oh, if I just go to UCL, I'll be fine, I think like that's changed today, right? Like, you don't just like get things like that. It's not just, oh, okay, do great in your GCSEs, do great in your A-levels, go to a great uni, get a first class and you'll be fine. No, um, the whole game has changed. You can literally become successful monetarily, career-wise, like, without having to follow that traditional path. So I think for me it's an obsession because a lot of people are still sold that narrative of like, you must do this, this, and this in order to become who you want to be when there's like so many other routes you can take now. And I think the danger is a lot of people, you know, they waste a lot of money on trying out things that didn't help them get to where they want to be. They lose a lot of time, you know, doing the wrong things. But then more so, it's just like You know, I was speaking to a friend lately, they're struggling to get a job, and it was just like, I did everything right, you know, I did everything that they told me to do. And like, it's a really smart person, really talented, very like, you know, got a lot to contribute to the world. And it's like, honestly, like, it— when I hear things like that, my heart just like sinks because it's like, I get it. Um, and I, I think For me, until that narrative changes and more people start to realize that, like, you know, they can become whoever they want to be, they just need to get the right guidance and also just start making those steps, you know, with the right knowledge and tools. It's like, yeah, until that changes, um, I think we've got, we've got a big job on our hands. And that's why, like, this is something worth sticking with because it's not fixed yet. And until it's fixed, like, we're going to keep going.

Yeah, I don't know if you can relate to this, but I always feel, um, it's quite easy to, uh, to get really better about the problem that you're solving and think it's like, oh, this is like, how are more people not caring about this? But generally, somebody's career is their life, it's their mental health, it's their financial well-being, it's all like— and if you look at it like that it kind of adds that a whole new layer of purpose and why to build on what you're building. And, um, and I think, um, one thing additionally to, to finding out what's right for you, um, I was told a pretty hard truth. I used to always just say to people, like, I do the Grad School Guides to help people find, like, a career that they're passionate about or their dream career. Where I think the truth is that really what needs to happen is that the allocation of the right person and the right skill set is allocated to the right, you know, role and the right industry. And that starts at awareness, right? Um, and I think for you, obviously you've had an eclectic amount of experience in some more traditional names, and now with using sort of Nestlé as a case study, the jobs and roles and industries you like to platform. What would you say to someone that might think that um, you know, the education system does a very good job of making people feel bad for rabbit holing in their career. Like, you know, and, you know, if it's not in the textbook, you shouldn't do it. But like, in careers, you have to do it, right? So what would you say to people for, you know, why rabbit holing and actually being curious is— can be so important, even if you come back to the same point in your career?

So as in, like, why rabbit holing is good to like deep dive. Yeah, before you expand, or if you could just like summarize.

Yeah, I think it's— for me it's like obviously with all the different jobs you're platforming and saying like, okay, I've— these corporate jobs still exist and we're going to help you get there. But in terms of like creating that like allocation of people into the right industry, why is rabbit holing So important.

Oh, okay. Again, you know, yeah, I think like rabbit holing, niching down, and just figuring out, like we like to say, your edge, like what that is, is so important because you need to be able to, to sell why you're the right person to be doing a specific job. Like especially with AI now, I was listening to like, um, like an MIT piece on it, and it was like, with ChatGPT and all these different LLMs, you can now make an average CV an excellent CV. Anyone can do that, you know, now for very cheap, meaning that it's going to be a lot harder for people to differentiate themselves. So like, I don't just want to— if I was an employer, I wouldn't just want to hire, if especially in this market right now where there's budget cuts, there's less roles, you obviously want to hire the best person with the most potential for the role. And it's like, if there's someone who, you know, has general skills and, you know, general experience and things like that, and you can't really pick out something that's like special about them, um, you're a lot more likely to pay attention to the person who's done something that's like a little bit more odd or different or just, you know, unique. So it's just all about like standing out. I think, you know, even recently one of our investors was telling us that, you know, with our approach to fundraising, like, just be a bit more free, be a bit more authentic. I think we wanted to fit the model of, you know, what it's like to be a tech founder and, you know, coming across as super professional and things like that. It's like, you know, you guys just came out of uni. Like, use that as an advantage because that's what makes you unique. And I think that is, you know, similar to like rabbit holing in terms of if you want to become a data scientist, don't just become like a general data scientist, become a data scientist that's, you know, really, really passionate about building AI products for, you know, analyzing credit risk within the housing market, like super niching down, just nerd out about something and opportunities will come to you because people can see that you're super passionate about something. And it's like when they have that specific problem, they'll come to you for it, as opposed to just being like, oh yeah, I can do any type of data science project. Like, no, I want the best person that can do specifically what I want.

There's a term that I'm pretty obsessed with right now that I think is like genuinely your superpower. In building your career while at university, and that's youthful naivety. So the ability to be naivety in your youth, not just in your career and your outlook towards that, but in conversation, right? When you think that you're not worthy of being in a room with someone and all you have is a degree next to your name, how can you use like your curiosity and your different line of questioning as that, that USP and the reason you should be in that room having that conversation? Um, I wonder with you, is there, is there something that springs to mind in your career where you were so naive to the consequences and potentially you were— if you had known what it might— the, the end of that might be, you might not have done it, but it's been the best thing for your career in the end?

I can talk about two concrete examples. So the first one being, before uni, I started like a health a health tech business. It basically was building a mobile app to help you scan your medication, review it, and then get rewarded for reviewing your medication and talking about if you experience any side effects, etc. Before that, the idea was solving the problem of counterfeit medication in Africa, and then we pivoted to that idea. That's a story for another day. But starting off with the first thing, I was like, okay, how am I, who's based in at the time Leeds, UK, 17 years old, just finished my A-levels, how on earth am I going to solve the whole problem of counterfeit medication in Africa? But I was just like, it can be done. Like, you know, there's a problem to be solved here. And that curiosity just took me down a path that, you know, steadily I started learning more and more. Like, people started believing in me more. And eventually we pivoted to this idea about scanning your medication. And still within that, like, I didn't have any pharmacy experience. I didn't have any pharmaceutical experience. I didn't even know how to build a mobile app. But I had this idea and I was just like, you know what? This can be done. And people believed in me. Like, you know, I found a co-founder. I found amazing CTO who's actually now working at Nestworks. Um, and, um, you know, we just had this belief that came from a super, super naive— well, not a naive insight, there was a real problem to solve. But like, who on earth was I solving that, not even being in uni yet? Um, but eventually, you know, we had investment offers. People gave us, you know, around £60,000 in investment and You know, we're partnering with universities and things like that. And yeah, it was just like, I didn't know what I was doing, but I figured it out eventually. And then the second example was with the Black in Sports Summit. So I started a conference to basically change the narrative around, you know, Black people in sport and the fact that, yes, there's a lot of, you know, racism and also discrimination and things like that. But we don't want to always focus on that. We want to celebrate the achievements and also just, you know, really just change the way people think about, like, athletes and then also just breaking into sport. It's an industry that's not really got the most traditional routes to get into. So I just had that initial idea in Loughborough. I was just like, I'm in the best sporting uni in the world. All these other universities, you know, they have like— Cambridge had their Motherland Conference, LSE had their like Africa Summit, you know. Um, there was this— I forgot what it was called— is it the LSE AIC, like Alternative Investment Conference thing that was huge? I was like, all these universities have these great events, they bring in speakers, you know, presidents and whatnot. I'm just like, why can't Loughborough just bring some of the world's, you know, most, most famous artists I mean, artists, athletes, and focusing especially at that time, there was, you know, the whole backlash with the Euros final in 2020 and the missed penalties. It was just like, okay, yeah, let's change this narrative. At the time I was like, yeah, we'll get Sterling on here. You know, we'll get Anthony Joshua. Like, we can do that. We can reach out to them. But eventually, you know, last year we had Lewis Hamilton. We held the event at the London Stadium, and it literally all came from that initial, you know, like, this can be done. Um, and I think it was a very, very naive thing to pursue, but we made it work.

So yeah, and I think the real skill then becomes how you can actually cultivate that youthful naivety into being like productivity. And with Nestwork, it's obviously there are so many learnings you made at a young age that you're able to actually put into practice from the get-go with Nestwork. I mean, obviously there's still constant learnings, but how do you— with, you know, Flynn's in the room, um, for this interview, your co-founder.

Yeah.

What are some things that you've armed yourself with this time round for entrepreneurship that, that you wish you knew in your first times around? And, and sort of just additionally to that, how do you still live with that same naivety even when you, you know, even when you know more?

Yeah, so I think I quickly realized, because like I initially sold sweets and chocolates and drinks in school and whatnot, and then went on to the health tech business, etc. So I had like a range of experiences from like marketing to like product development and whatnot. And I realized very quickly what I wasn't good at. I realized what I was good at and what I wasn't good at. And I remember in my first startup, I just realized that, um, essentially because I didn't know much about the industry, I didn't know much about how to tackle this problem. Whatever I was doing next. And so yeah, the other thing was I didn't necessarily have such a strong why when it came to that problem that we were solving. I just thought it was a big problem, it was an innovative idea, let's pursue it. Going to Nestwork, it was like, one, I need to work with people who feel, you know, who are better than me at key functions so they can fill in that gap, because I know I'm not Superman. And then second of all, working on something that I knew a little bit more about. So I think like the naivety is still there because, for example, selling to employers, it's our first experience doing that. You know, we ran societies, we helped employers recruit and whatnot, but like actually going to them with a new idea and being like, hey, 'Give us a shot.' It's like, okay, what do we do? And also even in product management, I worked at Spotify for almost a year, but I'm not the most experienced product manager. I don't know everything. When it came to launching, it was like, okay, cool, how do we set up all the analytics events and what should we focus on tracking? I had to learn all of that stuff from scratch. I think that naivety has definitely led to some mistakes, but like I said before, if you quickly realize those mistakes and just like learn from them, you can, you can move pretty quickly. So the naivety is still there, but like having a team that's better than me at many other things, it just helps.

Do you have a message for someone who's listening to this that might be in a similar position to you when you've just found out football's not going to work, you've just been rejected from EY and you're thinking this whole career stuff is very daunting and maybe it's not for me, and a lot of self-doubt is creeping in. Obviously with everything that you've achieved now, it's, it's easy to reflect and be like, oh okay, like I didn't need to worry. But what would you say to somebody that is like to actually reinstall their faith in careers and to be optimistic?

Yeah, um I would say there's hope. Don't give up. But even if you do give up, eventually you'll pick yourself back up. I think that was one of the things I realized from uni, right? Like, I have ADHD and like uni was a struggle for me in many senses, but like eventually it went, like I did it. And in the moment it felt like this is never going to end, but eventually it did. So same with applying for jobs. Like, you know, I know a ton of people who have been searching for grad jobs all year, you know, and they've literally just got on a roll last week, yesterday. And it's like, what you're going through right now won't last forever. Like, I'm a Christian as well. And I think that my faith has definitely installed that in me in the sense that, you know, a scene— this season that you're in now isn't always going to last. Like, seasons come and go. So my message would be like, yeah, it sucks. It hurts. It's painful. But there will be a time when it's over. And you will have a story to tell. Like, almost think about what story you want to tell. Like, do you want to say, "Oh, I gave up and like I was just there, just existing," or like, you know, "I worked super hard and, you know, look at me now"? I know it's a lot easier said than done, but my main message is that the time will pass, and I guess you have to be a bit patient.

So yeah. Sam, my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is when you first started out with all your previous business ventures, or, you know, football or Loughborough, you might have had a certain idea of what success would look like to you back then. And then fast forward to now, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

I would say my definition of success is one, how How much more of a loving person are you being? And how much, like, joy do you just, like, exude? Because I think even if you're making a lot of money, but what you're doing, you're burnt out, you have no time to spend with your friends, and you're just, like, socially isolated, like, to me, that's not success. To me, it's like, I'm doing something and it makes me so happy. And like, you know, I'm becoming someone who just like exudes love to other people. Like, I see someone, I'm just like, you know, I want to help you, or, you know, I just enjoy spending time with you, or, you know, you're just a joy to be around. So it's almost like, how much happier are you becoming as a person? I think that's like, for me, my measure of success. Yeah.

You do have a very infectious personality. And yeah, I mean, I think that is your definition of success, then you're definitely currently hitting it. So it's been a pleasure having you on.

Thanks for having me.

Cheers.

Love this.

Yeah.