Shanil Modi, Strategy @ Moove

Chanel, welcome to the podcast. Uh, if you could just start off by telling us a bit about your current startup and your role within it.

Sure. Well, firstly, thank you for having me on. It's nice to see you again. Um, so the company I work for is called Moov. Uh, they are a mobility fintech startup, and that probably doesn't mean a lot to you, so let me explain. Um, so essentially we are Um, Uber's biggest vehicle financing partner. Um, so we were born out of Africa, um, and essentially we provide vehicle financing to Uber drivers, um, who otherwise would not be able to obtain financing. So many of the drivers in Africa, they can't afford to own the car that they drive, so they rent it. Um, the reason why they can't afford to own it is because they don't have access to credit. The traditional finance system doesn't give them access to credit because they have no credit history.

Yeah.

And so what we do is we say, okay, we'll give you financing for that car, um, and you pay us back through your weekly earnings from Uber over a fixed tenure. So, and then after which you own the car. The reason why we're different to a typical traditional vehicle financing company or any financing company is because we don't discriminate on the basis of past credit history. So we say to them, look, We're going to give you financing on the basis of future productivity. So how, you know, how much you earn, how much revenue you generate from that asset. So that's really been the core part of the business. And then the second piece, that's the mobility part. The second piece is the fintech piece. And that is, essentially, we're using vehicle financing as kind of an entry point into that customer's life. So, you know, after they start driving with us, we collect data on that customer. And on the back of the data we collect, which we analyze, we can essentially use that to offer additional financial products to them, like, for example, banking services or asset management services or insurance products. So essentially, we're kind of looking to become this ultimately this lifetime kind of financial partner with each of our customers. And, you know, we were born out of Africa, but we've grown substantially. And now we're kind of very much a global company.

Yeah, what was the main draw for you to join the company then?

Uh, I think a couple of things. So, um, one of which is, you know, I really wanted to move into the startup space. As you know, um, after uni I worked in consulting and in banking. I realized that wasn't for me. Um, and I knew that, you know, ultimately kind of one of my long-term goals is to become a founder myself one day. And I knew that moving into the startup space generally is a good starting point, you know, a good stepping stone to help me getting there. And, you know, as you know, I work in the strategy team of the startup, so, you know, being in that team means that I work really closely with the founders, which means ultimately, ultimately helps my learning. And I work on some really interesting pieces. But, but so that's, so that's one piece, like moving into the startup space generally. In terms of why that company specifically, I think You know, something that I learned from the interview process is I really like their mission and their vision. You know, they've got a very kind of ESG-focused mission and vision, but then also like the people are super smart and I knew that I could learn a lot from those people.

Yeah, so you're talking about the team and the people they have on board already, like being very important to why you joined them. As someone who's a senior role in it now, who would you look to onboard on your team? What would you be looking for in a person you'd want?

Characteristics, what they're adding to the office, soft So it very much kind of depends upon the role. So if you're looking specifically for my team, I think you need to be analytical by nature, like attentive to detail, all of the kind of standard stuff, have good communication skills.

Yeah.

But I think on top of that, and probably the most important thing, is that you need to kind of, you need to almost kind of be a bit of a hustler. Like, just, you need to be able to find a way of kind of getting things done. You don't need to, you know, know all the answers to problems, but you need to be like a creative kind of problem solver. So like You know, well, creative problem solver and willingness to kind of get your hands dirty. Yeah. Like, you know, really keen to kind of get stuck in, learn. Because the reality is, is that in a startup, what I've found is that no one really knows the answers to any of the problems, but you all work together to figure it out collectively. I think that's the most important thing. I think, you know, being a hustler, having a really good attitude, and willingness to, as I say, get your hands dirty.

Yeah, when you talk about being a hustler, that's something that you've got. And would you attribute—

Well, I hope. I'm developing it.

Okay, but would you say being in investment banking like you were before, how much did that contribute to your mentality and who you are now?

So I think, to be honest, I think my investment banking experience was, albeit like super painful and really difficult, I think it was probably the best experience that I've had. Mainly because Um, how hard do you work there even though you don't do the most interesting work? Like, the people around you, everyone's super motivated, everyone's super ambitious, but like, it, it kind of instills a work ethic inside of you, um, that is like a really important skill because you know that if you've done that kind of job and done those kind of hours, that like whatever else you do will never be as bad, um, hours-wise at least.

Yeah.

Um, so you know that you've almost kind of been through the worst. You almost need to like know that when you're in the trenches and you're like doing those really bad hours that like, like once you've experienced it, nothing else can really come, nothing else can really faze you. So even like now when I do longer hours, it's, um, obviously it's not great, but it's not something that I've never seen before. Yeah, and I think it kind of prepares you really well.

Yeah, definitely, it makes a lot of sense. But looking at your LinkedIn, you've been doing loads of work experience from a very young age. Why did you think that was such an important thing to do? What was it in your head that you were like, "Oh, I need to do this for my future career." Yeah, that's a good question.

So I think a few things, one of which is like, you know, pressure from my parents and from school to actually force you to do work experience, right? Yeah. So they're like, you know, you need to do work experience, you need to, you know, have an idea of what kind of career you might want to pursue. And the reality is, is that you do this work experience not really knowing what you want to pursue. Yeah. But at least in my case, a lot of the experience that I had was mainly within finance, right? So, you know, I did like spring weeks in consulting and then in banking. Yeah. Looking back, I actually wish I did more kind of other forms of work experience, more kind of creative work experience. I think probably the best work experience that I ever did was working in a furniture shop in France, in Normandy, which was literally in the middle of nowhere. A 2-week work experience in year 13, just speaking French and like interacting with customers. Like, that was the kind of work experience where I'm like, I've actually learned—

I actually learned more from that work experience than I did in any of my other work Are there things from that work experience you see becoming useful in this job at the moment?

So I think definitely elements of it. Like, I think, you know, when I look back and like, what's the kind of most important skills, like obviously going through uni and school and like some of those other kind of finance work experiences help, particularly like, for example, when you're trying to build a financial model, right? But actually I think the most important kind of skills that you can develop, and it's actually kind of hard to teach, is the people skills, right? So like interacting with customers.

Sure.

Like building relationships with people, working in a team. I think those are the kind of skills that, you know, being confident, being a good presenter, I think those are the kind of skills that are, you know, I value the most.

What does a good day look like in a startup compared to an investment bank? And what does a bad day in a startup look like compared to the investment banks?

That's an interesting question. So let me start with an investment bank. So in an investment bank, I would say a good day is when you finish at 7 o'clock, is the truth. A bad day is when you don't finish until the next day. And on top of that, you're getting harassed by your MD to do so, to make some formatting changes to a presentation. At 2 AM in the morning. So that's the banking piece. Startup, I think a good day is when you feel as if you've solved, like, a real tangible problem. So for example, you know, you've— there's been an issue where one of the products that we have in Mar Markets doesn't make sense for us, doesn't make sense for the customer. You found a creative way to actually make it make sense for everyone, all parties, us, the customer, Uber, and everyone's happy. And there have been days like that. And that's a really good day. That's a day in which, you know, you feel as if you've really achieved something because ultimately it's impacting someone's life. It's impacting the customer's life. And they're super happy. A bad day is when— you're faced with so many challenges, so many blockers, and you haven't really been able to find a solution. And I think a good example is actually kind of a piece that I'm working on right now. So, one of the local markets in which we operate, we're looking to put 200 cars on the road by the 22nd of November, which is literally like a week and a half from now.

Yeah.

There are so many problems, everything from kind of regulatory problems to practical issues in terms of onboarding drivers, just the whole thing, there's blockers all over. And that's when it becomes quite frustrating, quite stressful. But I don't really see it as a bad day. I think it's just, you know, it's another opportunity for you to find a solution to that problem. And I think it'll make the feeling even better if and when we do find that solution.

You're talking about investment banking being very hard on you, like, you know, the long hours, and mentally it's maybe tough to keep doing day after day. And even in the startup, you know, when you're not working, you're probably still thinking about, oh, how can I resolve this? Or this deadline's coming up. Both of them are very strenuous on yourself. What are some habits you do outside of work to keep yourself mentally sane? I know you like a night out, but Other than that, what's important for you to do day to day to sort of make you wake up motivated to keep going on?

Yeah, you're not wrong. I do like a night out, almost as much as you like one. So what do I do? So a few things, right? I think the good thing about the startup life, though, is that typically you have more of a work-life balance. So you know that once you leave the office, you don't have to think about work. And that definitely wasn't the case in banking. You literally always have to be on your phone waiting for the next email. And that really kind of, that was very unsettling, to be honest. That was what kind of gave me anxiety. So you know that you can switch off once you leave the office in a startup. Things I tend to do, go to the gym. I play football on weekends. I play golf on weekends. I've literally become obsessed with golf. Like super addicted.

It's good for your career as well.

Yeah. I guess, yeah, I don't even look at it like that. Like, I've literally become, uh, yeah, it's the first sport that I've played I'm like, I'm actually obsessed.

Yeah, that's important. Yeah, something else to be sort of obsessed with other than work.

Exactly, exactly. And then on top of that as well, like, I, you know, I've got, um, some other things I do on the side. So I'm working on a side project in which, um, I've, uh, I've launched an app, um, on the Shopify platform. It's a plugin.

Yeah, well, tell us a little about that.

Sure. I was hoping you'd ask this. So essentially, it's an app. It's called Greencart. It's an app that enables store owners who are on the Shopify platform to donate to tangible charitable causes when their customers check out with them online. So for example, if you're a customer, you put £100 worth of— clothing items from Carhartt, let's say, in your basket, we would basically enable Carhartt to donate 3% of your basket value to one of two tangible causes that are presented to you at point of checkout. So, for example, it might be, you know, £3 going towards donating 10 hot meals to children in, you know, Country X through our partner charity, or to planting 10 trees. And you get to pick where the money goes, but you as the customer don't fund it. It's the store owner that funds it. And the reason why we think that store owners would fund it is because we think that, you know, particularly the modern customer, the younger customer, who's more ethically conscious, you know, is more likely to return to that store if, you know, if they find that— if what they see is that the store really cares, or, you know, the brand really cares about donating to charitable causes. Yeah, we hope it would kind of result in, or our hypothesis is that it results in, higher customer retention, higher average order value, and more customer engagement in the brand.

Yeah, well, I think that's an amazing idea.

Thank you.

Of course, it sort of makes you think about, you know, you've got this really established career path, like, or I would perceive it as that, you know, you've been in investment banking, you've got your job in a startup, you know, you're doing strategy, but you've got this like desire to be entrepreneurial yourself and do something yourself. What is the healthy balance of thinking forward, you know, thinking about how you can progress your career while still focusing on what you're in and sort of being grateful for that?

So sometimes I think that I've kind of got mixed views on this. Like growing up, there were people around me that told me you always need to have a 5-year plan. Right? So you need to have an idea that in 5 years this is where you want to be and work towards that.

Yeah.

Um, now if you'd ask me that question, you know, at school, I would have given you one answer. If you'd ask me that question at uni, I would have given you a very different answer. And now if you'd ask me that question, um, I would hope that in 5 years I'd be, you know, hopefully founded my own business and be running my own business. But who knows, to be honest. I think if you if you're always kind of fixated on planning ahead, sometimes you almost kind of forget to enjoy the moment. Like, yeah, you're in.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, and I think that's something that I've gradually learned, you know, since starting work. I mean, I've only really been working since 21. Yeah, just turned 26. So I mean, that's how much I've learned in kind of 5 years and how, and how many, how many kind of variables change in, well, let's call it 4 years, right? Um, So I can't even imagine how many more things are going to— how my perspective on life is going to change even more in the next 3 to 4 years. But I do think it's important to have some idea or some direction of where you want to go. That's ultimately why I moved into the startup space. I was like, OK, hopefully I'd like to see myself running my own business in a few years' time. Startup seems to be a good stepping stone for that. But obviously, if someone else sees himself becoming an MD in an investment bank or you know, a senior consultant or, you know, a creative director for a fashion brand, whatever it may be, like, they can all explore. It might make sense to follow a different path.

From outside looking in, the appeal of a startup might also be that you're sort of rubbing shoulders with the people at the top of the business where you might not be in a massive investment bank. You're learning from them, learning how to run a company, all those things that are important to you for your future.

Yeah.

What are some learnings you've taken from the people at the top of your company?

So there's two founders, two CEOs in my business, and both of them are very different. I would argue that one is more introverted and one is the showman. And I think there's lots to learn from both of them because they're very different personalities, but they work quite well together. I'd say there's a lot to learn from it. They're both super smart. They— I think the one thing about, um, one of them, the one who I said was a showman, is that I've never ever seen somebody walk into a room and command a room like he does. Um, and I can honestly say this out of— I've met quite a few different people in, you know, people who founded their own businesses, people in banking and finance, whatever it may be. And I can honestly say, for the first time, and I've never seen this before, someone that can literally walk into a room and command the whole room. Um, it's like when he walks in and when he talks, everyone stops and listens.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that's kind of— I would say he's probably the best communicator I've ever seen in person.

Okay.

Um, and I think that's arguably the most powerful thing I've seen, because ultimately, like, you can have all these great ideas, but if you don't know how to bring other people on board with those ideas then it's almost kind of worthless because you need to get everyone else engaged, right? This guy can get everyone engaged in all of his ideas. And he can bring people with him. And I think that's probably the biggest learning.

Yeah, you sort of wonder for people like that who do just seem so confident, like, you know, this idea of imposter syndrome, like, you wonder if that even exists for them because I think everybody feels it. It's like, oh, do I have the right to sort of be telling these people what to do? And where you sort of generate that confidence from. You've sort of semi-recently started a new chapter in your career. How did you sort of find that new environment, you know, this new responsibility role?

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I was actually pretty nervous. I thought it was going to be a very— I thought it was going to be a bigger step up than it actually ended up being. Yeah. And I think part of that is because, I mean, in my other jobs that I've been in, both consulting and banking, Um, as the most junior, you don't tend to have that much responsibility, right? Particularly because you're in a big corporate, so there's a lot of hierarchy, there's a lot of bureaucracy. You get given typically the, um, you know, where someone say the shitty at work, right?

Yeah.

Um, but here, like, you get so much ownership, responsibility, and accountability, um, which ultimately for me is like probably 3 of the most motivating things, right? Like, I'm motivated by by all of that.

Yeah.

You know, people just trust you that, you know, whatever you produce is gonna be right. And that means like, and I guess this is partially why they want you to come from kind of a more kind of established, well-trained kind of background, like the banking and the consulting. But yeah, I think it's, the best thing about it is the ownership, the responsibility, And yeah, I think a lot of it also is about confidence. Yeah. So like, you just need to back yourself because when you're speaking to someone else, it's not like there's one fixed answer. So whenever they give you a problem, it's not like they have the answer to that problem and they're waiting for you to get to say yes or no. They're waiting for you to get it right or not, right? No one really knows the answer. We've got to figure it out together. And if you back yourself and you're confident in whatever it is that you're saying, um, I think that's, you know, that can really go a long way.

Yeah, when you're talking about, you know, having this newfound accountability, obviously I've never experienced it in the workforce and, you know, in a startup and actually having to, like, you know, be accountable for a company and, you know, for other people. But would you say it's more difficult in work or at university holding yourself accountable? Because both are a bit, you know, hard to get your head around. Like, at university you've suddenly got no parents holding you accountable, no teachers holding you accountable, you're doing it all for yourself. At work you can have someone saying, "We need this deadline." At university, what were some things that you did to sort of hold yourself accountable and make sure you were getting the grade you wanted, yeah, so you could put yourself in the best place for your career?

Yes, it's funny you ask that because I actually think in uni was the first time I just kind of let my hair down, and particularly in first year, I did not do much work. At all. I thought I did at the time, but I really didn't.

That's very relatable.

And that was reflected in my grades in first year. I was like, ah, yeah, these are not great. Um, and it's funny because, so I went to a school in which everyone was super smart. I was very average, um, and everyone was super motivated. Um, and you know, that's exemplified by the fact that, you know, I look around at my friends who I'm super close with, like my school friends are my closest friends, and like everyone's doing amazing in their life. So I've always been in this environment where there's been loads of pressure put on you by teachers to like perform to the highest level. Yeah. And so for the first time at uni, when I didn't have that pressure and I could just let my hair down and go out, like go out clubbing 3 times a week, 4 times a week, maybe even 5. You know, I loved it, but I really didn't do much work, and that was reflected in my grades. And then when I saw my grades at the end of first year, yeah, that was for the first, you know, for the first time I was like, oh shit, I actually need to fix up. Um, and so, um, you know, I focused on like fixing that in second and third year. Fortunately, first year doesn't count for anything. Um, yeah, I think it was seeing those, seeing those grades, and then when my parents were asking me, how did you do? And I told them —and their reaction, that was kind of what gave me that motivation again to fix up in second and third year. And then on top of that as well, you know, there's the whole like applying for internships piece, which I'm sure like everyone at your uni does as well, right? And that can be quite distracting. And that, for me, was a really painful process because you've just got to get used to the idea of rejection. Like, it's just about hit rate. So you've got to like apply to as many as possible and hope that you get one or two. Yeah, um, and I wasn't really— I took rejection quite badly at times, particularly at the beginning, because I wasn't really used to getting rejected. Like, at school I did pretty well, and then when I started to get all these rejections, I was like, oh, why is this happening? Is it me? But the reality is, is that you just, you know, it's not necessarily you. There's small things you can do to change your application, but ultimately it's, um, it's just a numbers game.

What I found particularly interesting from what you're saying there is that I remember at school, so I've not had as long a career as you, but I can relate to that feeling of being told to do all these things. Some people will do them, some people will struggle to do them, but generally it's not coming from you. You're being told to do them, so you're doing them, but it's not until you've got that penny job moment, until that motivation is coming from yourself, that you actually fully put your whole heart into it. The work you're doing now, you're doing it because your own prerogative, it's like what your own ambitions in your career, yeah, the lifestyle you want to lead, you know, whatever reason it is, you're doing it for yourself. And sure, what was your sort of penny drop moment at university other than your grades? You were sort of saying, when was it like, okay, this is the career I want, this is a lifestyle I want, and these are my drivers?

I remember in first year, um, I wasn't doing much work, you, like, academically, but I was applying for internships. Yeah. And, um, I managed to land 3 spring weeks, one at KPMG, one at HSBC, one at Barclays, and did these spring weeks. When I saw who I was with on these spring weeks, yeah, I felt out of my depth. I really did. I was like, I don't know anything compared to how much these guys know. They were asking all these complicated questions. I had no idea what anyone was really talking about, and I only ended up converting the KPMG one. So the Barclays and HSBC one I didn't convert into a summer internship. And then on the back of that, I was like, hmm, why has this happened? Yeah. One is probably the confidence. So like, I didn't feel confident in a room when everyone seemed to know a lot more than me, even though that wasn't probably necessarily the case when I look back at it. It's just about how you portray yourself, right? And I think that kind of intimidated me a bit. And then the second is, obviously, I've just found out that I haven't actually got what I expected to get. I almost kind of didn't appreciate the fact that I got spring weeks, which in itself was really hard to get. Yeah. And I didn't appreciate that. I didn't really know much about what they were. And so when I found myself with only one— I got one offer for a summer internship, but I didn't really want to take it. When I found myself in that situation, I was like, oh, I now need to fix up my grades and make sure that I try and land a good internship because ultimately I wanted to be in banking. And then that's kind of what led me to become obsessed with it. And so with a friend, I co-founded a society which was focused on— it was basically called Market Watch. It was basically a society which allows people to kind of be up to date with kind of financial developments, like a journal where people could write about all financial developments, as well as we'd debate it in person as well. And so we started this society. It was a good kind of CV filler. But it was also actually quite good because you learn something from that, right? Like, you lead a society, there's like implications with that, you get sponsorship, et cetera, et cetera. And so that was a good experience. But as I say, coming back to it, like, the penny dropped when I got my grades and when I didn't land my spring weeks or convert them into summer internships.

When you were at university, did you sort of have an idea of what success looked like to you? And then— Yeah. Has it changed to what it is? So much. It has changed a lot.

So much. Um, so success to me, and this is probably the case, um, with I imagine some of your friends, particularly ones that probably do economics at UCL. Yeah. But, um, I did economics at uni, so, um, what I found was that everyone became obsessed with, um, like a banking job or a consulting job, at least from, at least from most of the people, from what I found, from who who did economics, and I'm sure many other subjects as well. And so at uni, I thought, you know, success was landing an investment banking job or a consulting job, and then becoming an MD one day, or maybe moving into private equity. Yeah. Where you literally earn loads of money. At like a super young age, you retire by like, I don't know, 40 or 35, whatever it may be, right? So it's like, who can get to the top the quickest in the finance space. Um, rat race. Yeah, literally, literally. And since leaving uni and since actually, you know, grinding to try and get some of those jobs, um, my view on it's just changed so much. Like, I mean, there's a lot of my friends who still have the view of like, you know, they want to stay in finance, move into private equity. A lot of them, a lot of them have moved into private equity, for example, and they all earn loads of money. But for me, like, my view of success is, like, the people I'm most inspired by are founders of businesses. Like, the idea to me of creating a product or service that adds value in society is to me the most awesome thing that you could do. Like, if you can find something to actually add value to other people's lives, I don't think there's any better feeling than that. So it's definitely something I'm still looking to try and do.

Yeah, obviously it's an ongoing thing throughout everyone's life, you know, this definition of success. Everyone sort of battles with what it is. But yeah, what is something you would have told yourself at university then about, you know, not just like defining success, but generally just like how much you should sort of look forward into the future about, you know, your career? Because I think a lot of people sort of close off options, you know, they've got this degree which, let's be honest, they've usually picked because they go to the A-level without ever actually considering what else they could be good at. Yeah. What are some things that you think you'd tell yourself?

I think the first thing is just enjoy the experience more, like enjoy the present more. Like you get university once, you get that experience once, stop worrying too much about the future. Like things will sort itself out. Mm-hmm. It might not be perfect in terms of the way you want it to go at the beginning, but you'll get there in the end, you'll get there eventually. So like for me, you know, I was obsessed with getting this banking job. I didn't actually get it whilst I was at uni. It was only while after, once I, um, started in consulting, that I reapplied for banking. And that was a painful experience, but I got there. Um, but there's just so much more to enjoy about uni than, than like work. Like, you're like, you, if you really deep it, you're like 20 years old, right? 21 years old. You've got your whole life ahead of you to work. You'll— everyone will get there eventually. Like, everyone, you know, everyone, everyone has a different path. Some people get there really quickly, some people take a bit longer, but you kind of got to let things happen naturally. So I would say like enjoy the moment more, and it's something that I definitely didn't do at times. Like I used to get really upset about when I, you know, when things didn't go my way and I didn't get what I wanted, and I used to really let it get me down. But like reflecting back, I would just say enjoy the moment more.

Like you're at uni once, I think, well, there's some that I, you know, I'm in my third year now and obviously I had lockdown and it wasn't the ideal uni experience, but I feel like it's very easy to forget just how much you get offered, like, you know, in terms of what you can do. I mean, 100%, like, it's actually mental. I mean, you know, sport is one thing, but like all societies, and this is from someone that, you know, I would never actively seek to do more work, whatever, but You find that things that you've built in your head to be work and hard, when you're actually doing them, they're really fun and rewarding. And I think just even doing stuff like this, just getting the ball rolling in some kind of direction, I think is a great thing. Can I ask about 3 words for your last 5 years in the industry and what would be most exciting about your next 5 years?

I could give you 3 words for each of my jobs because they're so different. Go for it. Um, I'd start my first job, which was consulting. I'd say exhausting. Exhausting because I was traveling all the time. I hardly spent any time in London. Um, I remember being on a project for 9 months in Bournemouth, staying in like 3-star hotels, like in the Travelodge basically. Um, and coming back on the weekends like tired, stressed out, but I didn't even want to do the job. Um, and it was times like that that make you realize, like, okay, if you really hate it, you've got to go and find a way yourself. Like, figure out yourself a solution to this problem. Yeah. Like, when you're growing up, you've got your parents there to find solutions to problems for you. When you're actually— when you're, when you're working, it's just you on your own. Like, if you hate a situation, you've got to get yourself out of that. No one else is going to do it for you. Um, and so that is when I reapplied for banking and then eventually got into banking. Then Barclays was difficult, and not in terms of like challenging work, but just more just the workload generally. I mean, I've still got the worst memory of my life, which is like during COVID working like 110 hours in a week for like 3 weeks in a row, and I was like, oh God, what is life? I was literally on the verge of just being broken. And then before, I was obsessed. I thought banking was, as I say, as I've said multiple times, like the be-all and end-all. I did it and I was like, this is not it. This is not it. This is not the one. You can pay me whatever money you want. I'm not doing this job. The work's not interesting. The day-to-day wasn't interesting. Yeah, you could pay me whatever. I'm not staying in this job. I wouldn't do it for double the money.

Yeah, I think it's important to know that that could be, this career could be for someone, that could just be what they want to do. For sure. But the reason why this podcast is fascinating and why I'm doing it is for the people that, you think you should do something and if it isn't what you want to do, it's not the end, you should always see, you're being successful right now and you're happy.

Well see, that's a really key point and I think, Yeah, I think the happy point is probably the most important point, right? So like, how do you define success? Like, if you'd asked me at uni, I would have told you top job, earn loads of money, retire by 40, whatever it is. And I used to have this joke with my dad that I'd retire by 30. I'd make loads of money and retire by 30. He's like, nah, you're a dreamer. I'm like, no, trust me, I will. I look back and I'm like, yeah, I was talking absolutely nonsense. Um, but now how do I look at success? I think Success is about really kind of enjoying what you do. Um, obviously you want to make money and you want to like, you know, you want to, you want to make enough such that you can live the life that you want to live, right? So, you know, if you want to spend, if you want to be a bougie big spender, then you know that you've got to, you know, you've got to find a job that's going to facilitate that, or find your own business and, you know, sell it for millions. Yeah. Um, but really, and what I've particularly learned over the past couple of years is that success is about, like, feeling fulfilled within whatever it is you do. And with— and I don't think work— like, work can contribute to you feeling fulfilled, but it's not the be-all and end-all, right? Like, fulfillment comes from within. So you need to be happy within yourself. You know, typically, at least what I've found, is that loads of people— and to be fair, myself included— like, when you're super motivated, ambitious, you want to achieve different things, it can be quite difficult to feel fulfilled because you achieve something and then you're like, well, actually, I'm looking for the next thing to achieve. Yeah. And it's always— it's that kind of never-ending cycle of, oh, I'm always looking for something else. And you need to kind of get to this stage where you just feel fulfilled, like whatever happens, happens. I haven't reached that stage yet. I'm hopefully on my way there, but I think that for me is the most important thing. That's how I would define success. 3 words for my current job, I would say exciting, intellectually stimulating, I'll call that one word. Um, and that's the first time I felt that way in a job. Um, and like genuinely enjoyable, like I actually enjoy going to work. Before, you know, I used to hate Mondays. I'm still not the biggest fan of Mondays, but like on a Sunday knowing that like I can go to work, I really like the people that I work with, and that like the office culture is fun Yeah, that makes things a lot better.

My last question is, you were talking about how competitive it was at school and so how that's made you into the man you are today, but explain a little bit more about that.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's a really interesting one because looking back on it, I feel very privileged to have gone to the school that I did. Uh, it was like a— so it's a, it's a grammar school in North London and it's like really hard to get into. I don't know how, but I managed to get in somehow through a lot of tutoring before for my 11+ exams. And, um, I think being in that environment was great because I was— as I mentioned before, like, you're constantly surrounded with people that are smarter than you. And so, like, if you surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, they're also really motivated and ambitious. And on top of that, the teachers force you to kind of work hard. Like, you're going to become smarter yourself. And I was also really lucky because my year in particular was really good. As I mentioned before as well, some of my best mates are still my school friends. And from that perspective, it was really good. It forces you into this really good work ethic, which is arguably why at uni in first year, I was like, "Oh, I don't have anyone putting pressure on me anymore. I can just chill." Yeah. But the reason why I probably fixed up in second and third year, after seeing my grades in first year because that was something that I wasn't used to. So, and that came from school, right? You know, when you don't get something you want, you're like, okay, I need to be better next time. So, I mean, those are the really positive sides of it, but then the kind of, I guess, negative sides of it is that you constantly feel this pressure on you, right? This pressure to do well. And that can be quite exhausting, to be honest. And it comes back to my point before about fulfilment. Like, if you always are surrounded by people that are smarter than you, you're always looking to do better. Sometimes that can stop you from becoming fulfilled because you're always looking for the next best thing. You don't, you don't ever sit and appreciate, oh, I've just done really well on something, I need to like celebrate that. You know, that's something that I could have done a lot more growing up and something that like now, having seen that and like having that perspective, um, I value a lot more. Like, you know, if I've got a success and I've achieved something, celebrate it, why not, right? Um, And I guess it's just about enjoying those kind of moments more.

In terms of who you surround yourself with, I think that's so important for literally every facet of life. I mean, agree, you should look at a person and be like, not in a mean way, but think, how can you positively influence my life? You know, some people are better at making you confident on a night out, or exactly, you know, talking to girls, or, you know, you don't need that, do you? And then some are people that academically stimulate you. If you're not someone that likes working, surround yourself with people who make working fun, who make work more efficient because they want to get it done. Think about who you are yourself and then how you can better yourself and then find people that you think are better than you in that. And there's no shame in thinking you're not good because it's not as cynical as that, it's just being aware of what you're good at and what you're not. People talk about in a company, that's the most important thing, delegating responsibility, all this stuff. I think everything you said today about holding yourself to account and just going for what makes you happy and then not stressing too much, just finding that whole balance, I think it's all been really useful. And for people like me at university or at school, all really great stuff. So thanks so much for coming on today, Stuart. No worries, man. Yeah, I appreciate it a lot. Cheers, mate. Cheers.