Shoaib Ahmed, Founder & Director @ Yello Hippo

Welcome back to another episode of Garage Guide. Today we're joined by Shoaib. Shoaib, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, very excited.

Yeah, so the founder of Yellow Hippo and the podcast host of One Rebels, and yeah, I guess you would describe what you do as personal branding. I think a good place to start for anyone who doesn't actually know what that means, what is personal branding to you?

Yeah, so personal brand, everyone has one, firstly, that's the starting point. I help founders, creators freelancers to strategically build their brand to serve their goals. So your personal brand is ultimately who you are, what you're about, what you represent, your values, when it collides with what people say about you when you're not in the room. So it's the perception of you and what you put out into the world, right? So, um, your brand is, yeah, it's just what you're known at, known for, and known as.

And if we take it back to back to the beginning at Durham University, what was your idea of your career then? Uh, what's personal branding on your radar? Uh, was a desire to do something for yourself? Uh, yeah, what was your thoughts on your career while at Durham?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't know the term personal brand until about 3 years ago. So at uni, I mean, I guess I was building my personal brand but without realizing I was doing it. For example, I was getting involved in like societies, I was part of the like uni committees, I was doing like extracurricular stuff, right? All that stuff was building my experience, building my network, creating more opportunities for me. That was me, um, kind of subconsciously creating a brand for myself in that space and becoming known for certain things. But definitely at the time, like, it wasn't an active choice that I'm going to build my brand for XYZ reasons. It was more the case of I'm at uni in the COVID market, um, it's very competitive now more so than ever. Even if you have a degree, like, even if you have a first-class degree from a top university, doesn't guarantee anything anymore. So I realized I needed to be doing more than just the degree at university. So that was kind of the reason for me building brand, but again, it wasn't a conscious thing.

Yeah, and I think, you know, students will hear this term and Yeah, they might even see people on their feed that are personal branding or they're, you know, influencers on LinkedIn, which is a, you know, a whole new world. But they might just think, okay, I don't even know how they even got there, and they won't go any further than that. But clearly when you saw it, you saw, um, however, opportunity or gap in the market. Talk me through those initial stages to actually realizing this was something you can make a career in.

Yeah, so I mean, I started posting on LinkedIn whilst I was at uni. Back when the platform was very, very different. It's just context for listeners who might not be that aware of how the platform's changed. Back then it was known as a corporate jobs board and that was it. It was a space for a certain demographic, senior, typically white middle class people in professional services, whereas now I think LinkedIn is much more of a creator platform, just as much as it is a jobs board, an educational platform, a professional networking site. So Back then I was just posting about myself, my career. I had interest in marketing, so that's what I spoke about. So for example, I would look at a big brand activation that, you know, a company had done, and I'd try to break it down and be like, oh, this is really cool because this, this, and this, these are the techniques they're using. And also talk about what I was doing, so all that extracurricular stuff I was posting about that because I thought if an employer sees this, it's going to obviously hopefully help my application. So that was what I was doing with no intention, and I kept doing it, kept doing it, and then I realized that I started having a very small audience. And at the time it was like 10, 15 likes per post, but I was noticing that people were just inquiring like, oh, like, I noticed you on LinkedIn a lot more, um, like, why are you on LinkedIn, what you're sharing. So I had some interest. So I just, uh, I was working for a marketing and media company at the time and I was put on furlough, so I had loads of free time during, during the pandemic. So I created a PDF guide. It was a very, very basic one, but it was just like a guide to, I think I called it a guide to LinkedIn in, so like help you build a brand on LinkedIn. But it was just like how to optimize your profile, how to upload this, how to write a headline, how to write an about section, how to post, what to post about. It was very, very basic. Like very, like now I look at it and think, oh my God, that's just crazy. Like basic.

What do you think at that time made you think that you had like the right to to do that? Because, you know, was it just you were looking at other people as inspiration and— Yeah.

I was just on there and just, I mean, I was speaking to people like in DMs who were on the other side of the world. That to me at the time was just like a bit wild because I grew up in a city in the north of England and it was just, I didn't travel like loads. And so it was just a bit bizarre that I was speaking to all these cool people and some of them were like 10 years older than me as well, but building these like huge businesses. but because we— there was only a few of us on LinkedIn at the time, it was almost like a little club.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I don't know what made me do it. I think it was also the whole thing around, uh, my career advisor and, you know, school teachers tell you that LinkedIn is a platform to help you get work. And so I thought, well, if I post more and create more content on LinkedIn, surely that's going to help me in the future.

Yeah, I think it is, it's that interesting one where your why kind of changes throughout the whole process. Yeah, initially, um, you know, you might have been motivated by the job prospects that came from it, and I think that's a very accessible term to keep doing it. But then when you realize that there's a business that can be built and, you know, money's being made, uh, I guess your, your why for doing it changes, right?

100%. I mean, from that guide that I created, I actually got a headhunter for a job, um, off the back of it. So somebody else was creating a personal branding agency, actually, and he did a part-time ghostwriter. So he was also a student, he'd set up a freelancing business and realised he was like working at capacity while studying for his degree, he needed some help. I was obviously creating content on LinkedIn just purely for visibility and just somehow the algorithm made our paths cross. He offered me a job, I worked with him for maybe 7, 8 months, actually rejected a grad scheme offer from Johnson Johnson, which is obviously a huge pharmaceutical company, which is the kind of like dream job that I always had. I always thought like a commercial marketing role in a big company in, in the central city of London, I thought that was like everything I would want, and I had it, and then I rejected it to work from my bedroom with one other person who I'd never met in an industry I didn't even know existed 6 months ago.

Obviously you've had all the success that you've had now, but were there times in this journey where you were doubting your decision?

Yeah, I mean, I went back and forth a lot. I actually accepted and rejected the grad scheme offer 6 times.

Wow, that's got to be some kind of record.

I know, like, bless the guy who was like on the other end, the talent like coordinator HR person, because he was just— must have thought, this guy does not know what he's doing. Yeah, but yeah, no, I think at the time I did question it, but it was a case of I had to actually call with somebody who I used to work with. He was a bit older and he said if there's a time to take a risk in your life, it's now. There's never really a perfect time to take a bit of a risk, but at that point, you know, I was just still at uni, I was living at home, I had no major expenses at all, I didn't have any— I don't have kids, I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't have any dependents. So I was like, why wouldn't I take a little bit of a risk now rather than wait 5, 10, 15 years and think, what if, what if I started something and then feeling trapped because of my circumstances that then I wouldn't be able to do that? So I just thought, you know what, like, fuck it, let's do it.

Do you think there's a stigma around the term personal branding or to be someone who runs a personal branding agency, and if so, why?

Yeah, I think there is at the moment. Same with like marketing, if you go back, like, good marketers know that marketing serves a real commercial purpose to business. But there's also a lot of bad marketers, right? And the bad marketers might not necessarily have the skills or the competency to deliver results, but will kind of be good at ironically creating brand. Yeah, right. And same with personal branding, because it was such a fast-rising industry. Naturally, you have a lot of people who jump in it who aren't necessarily that qualified or experienced and don't really actually have an intention to do great work, but see it as an opportunity to make quick cash. I like that definitely exists in the industry, but I think those people just get found out over time. So when I started, it was kind of like quite organic because I worked for a company for a while in the space. I was posting on LinkedIn years before, and then I started freelancing with no real intention to start like an agency. So I freelanced, I worked with maybe 3 or 4 clients and got really good results. I was charging peanuts, it was ridiculous. I was charging like £400 a month but they were getting like everything, like all my time, my energy, content, ghostwriting, strategy, graphic design, everything. But because I charged so low, I was able to win a few clients. And then because I won a few clients, I overdelivered, made great case studies. And that for me was the moment like the business took off because I had proof and evidence that I can do this. And it wasn't just my brand that carried the agency, it was actually results.

Do you think you had to charge that lower amount, um, or like knowing what you know now, uh, yeah, do you think it's part of the formative process of building a business?

I think I didn't know what I was doing. I don't think anybody does on the first time. Like every single business owner that I've spoken to, I asked them like, how were your first 6 months? And they were just like, chaos. I didn't know what I was doing. Adrenaline, excitement, which is always all of those things mixed together, but Yeah, I think at the beginning I was charging low because, A, I wasn't that confident. I had a bit of imposter syndrome, to be completely honest, and I didn't have the experience that other agencies had. So I was in the space with, you know, agencies who had worked with loads of clients. So I thought, okay, why would somebody take a shot on me? I put myself in the shoes of my client. What would make them work with me over somebody else? So one of those things was my own brand. I had built my own brand successfully, but then also I kind of negotiated a deal where I was like, look, work with me for a month, 2 months, however long you want, at really low price. You don't even have to publish the work I create if you don't want to. For some clients at the start, I even did like a few freebies as well and didn't charge anything, but I'd proven that I could do the work. So then they were happy to pay me because now they were seeing financial return on the work that I was doing. And since my first client to today, my pricing for the exact same or very similar service has increased, well, it's 5 times what it was. But now I've got the authority and the experience and the proof and testimonials.

Yeah, I guess you now feel, because you said it is a fast-growing business and still in its infancy stages, that, you know, you are, you probably you are sort of a more seasoned person in the space and you're watching people enter from below. And is there anything that annoys you about, maybe annoys is the wrong word, but you know, things that you think, oh, what are you doing? If only they knew what I knew. And what would those be?

Yeah, I mean, there's a few. I mean, there's a lot of different tactics now to generate engagement. So, you know, one of those is paid groups. I know of people, very big content creators in the space, some of the biggest on LinkedIn actually, who are idolized in the personal branding space, who actually work with each other on agreements that they—

Cartel.

Yeah, so you engage with my content, I engage with yours. You've got a big audience, you're gonna help me grow. I've got a big audience, you're gonna, you know. A lot of those people now are selling LinkedIn personal branding courses. And this is how, you know, I grew my LinkedIn by 70,000 followers in a month. Let's be realistic, people aren't organically growing 70,000 followers a month, so look deeply into that and think, why are they growing? And some of these creators, I was invited to what's called a pod, which is an engagement group where it's like a WhatsApp group or Slack where everyone, as soon as they post, they all put their links in and everyone likes and comments within the first like 10 minutes to basically hack the algorithm to push the post out into more newsfeeds. So that's A lot of those people, you know, fair play, they can do whatever they choose, but then I think it's a little bit misleading to then say, I've grown my LinkedIn and here's what you can do, but they never mention their strategy. They still mention good advice, you know, optimize your profile, create storytelling-based content, write universal posts, think about structure and formatting and readability, but they're not mentioning the thing that has helped them grow the most, which is basically engagement farming.

Yeah, I wonder why it is they do chase these sort of vanity metrics of numbers when like, you know, I still think, okay, having a good following is great on LinkedIn, but like for me personally and my journey, it's the ability to outreach to someone and, you know, show that you're not bullshitting when you express an interest in what they do or an expansion expressing interest in chatting with them. Um, and what would you say has been the best product of you building a personal brand aside from the business?

So many things. Like, I feel like my entire— the last few years of my life have fully just been from the opportunities I've got from LinkedIn. Um, just like whittling some off, um, my best friend— I actually met my best friend through LinkedIn, and we met at a couple of events, uh, offline, but we but we didn't actually speak to each other. And then we were just chatting via DMs, and I was just like, oh, we should meet up at some point. And she's based in Glasgow. I was like, oh, we should meet up. And it was like, we were just talking, talking, talking, talking, and then we were like going to meet in the middle. And then I just said, why don't we just go on holiday? And so the first time we properly spoke to each other was on an airplane to Gran Canaria for 7 days. And she's actually staying with me like as we speak right now, but That is one thing, like the network. Also other business owners. I think my like social circle has just been completely elevated because I've got such ambitious people, all driven by obviously business, but also have their own unique values. So health, wellbeing, personal growth, mindset development. And I'm kind of getting exposure to these people I would never get exposure to because when you— wherever you grow up, whether you go to the school, uni, whatever, you've got like a those friends you might outgrow or they might outgrow you. Whereas I think it's always important to keep meeting people who are maybe 1 to 2 steps ahead of you or in the current space you're at in life who push you. So you're no longer the kind of most qualified in the room anymore, or, you know, people have different insights, different perspectives, different backgrounds. That's one thing. Another one is I started off the back of my own brand being— I've been getting a lot of invites to kind of creator-led events. So I got invited to kind of like some creator influencer getaways and stuff like that. I got invited to Paris, um, which I went to a few months ago, which was a fully paid-for trip abroad.

And that's across all, uh, Instagram, TikTok, or is it just exclusively?

So that's exclusive to LinkedIn. I don't actually build— I don't have a TikTok. I don't— I post a little bit on Instagram. Yeah, I've got like 700 followers on there though, but obviously on LinkedIn it's like 41K. So that's a huge audience. And also LinkedIn's the best one in my opinion for people who are wanting to go into business because it's full of key decision makers in senior positions with budget and influencing power, right? So it's like 40,000 on LinkedIn is like, I think, the equivalent of like 500K on Instagram because it's the quality of that audience and what they can offer you.

They're all real people. Yeah, I mean, like, everyone is engaged in— they can't really be bots.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I, I think, um, Given that this is a podcast for students and graduates, especially ones that might be feeling a little bit lost in their career journey, you mentioned you did get that offer to take that big corporate job that normally gets put on a pedestal by universities, you know, get the brand name and then you can do whatever you want, but I think, you know, what's interesting just hearing your story is I think you kind of missed out the part of the social confidence to go ahead and do any of this. I think a lot of people are restricted by caring about what people think of them, even though they know how much it's benefited you now. What would you say back to maybe your younger self or somebody who is thinking, okay, okay, this all sounds great, it's clearly something I should start doing, but yeah, doesn't find it very accessible?

Yeah, I think the best advice is work for a small company. So before the personal branding agency that I worked for, I did like a placement year, which is like a year in industry between second and third year of uni. I worked for a marketing and media agency. No, I studied geography at uni, so it's like completely different to what I do now. But that year that I was with that company was like the biggest confidence-building thing that I've like ever had because it was a small company. I got lots of responsibility. I was working directly Like, literally sat next to me was the head of copy, head of creative, marketing director, digital marketing manager, head of events on the same table. If you go to a massive grad, like a corporate company, you don't get that level of exposure to those people with that kind of influence and experience. So I was sat with those people and just absorbing information, asking questions, and just putting myself forward for anything and everything. So if you don't feel confident, it sounds kind of oxymoronic, but put yourself in more uncomfortable situations because that's the only way you're going to get more confident.

Yeah, no, I hear that, and I think having the confidence to go ahead and do anything different to what you're told at university is actually, I think, something that's holding a lot of people back from finding a fulfilling career, right? Um, but yeah, I mean, I guess this all sort of stems a little bit further back with all your society activities, getting involved in everything, and I mean, were you always really conscious of, you know, wanting to have a great career? When did that career consciousness start for you?

I'd say it started at kind of early university, maybe end of like A-levels and early university. I didn't know what I wanted to do career-wise, um, you know, I actually, uh, whilst at uni I got like internships and stuff in teaching, I got an offer with the civil service and like the Department of Defence and Security. It's like loads of random things, but I think that's like a good thing. I think you should try different things at least. Like I did 2 weeks of teaching, I went into a school in Manchester and I taught some like lessons there and that made me realise actually I don't want to teach. Yeah. So if you don't try stuff, you're never going to know. And then when I did the marketing media placement year when I worked for that company, I realised, yeah, this is what I want to do. And if you're stuck in that in-between phase of like you've got a few options but you're not 100% committed to any, just try a little bit of everything. Like message people on LinkedIn who work at those companies, ask for work experience even if it's, you know, like shadowing someone for a day, or ask for a coffee call with somebody who's in a position you want to be in and get some insight into their experiences. Just immerse yourself in that world. And also, if you don't have experience, I don't see that as a valid excuse anymore because you have access to things that will give you experience. So if you say you want to become a copywriter, you don't need to work in an editorial company or in a marketing department. You can start a WordPress blog, right? And create content online and build following and build community and refine your skills that way. You can learn SEO organically online. Same with like social media. If you want to be a content creator, start TikTok, start a community page, start a forum, start a Reddit thread, you know. There's so much opportunity out there. Obviously it's a bit hard in traditional subjects, maybe if you're going to go like investment banking or law, for example, but if you're going to work in a more creative space where it's often ironically harder to get internships and work experience, create your own.

Yeah, I think Yeah, it is interesting because I bet you're pretty used to people now reaching out to you from who didn't understand any of it at the beginning. It's like, it's the classic story, but I think it still doesn't, you know, I think there is still that blocker though, and people actually going ahead and creating their own thing. And I think, you know, it comes on to debate, I mean, even though the audience is mainly for university graduates, I feel like it probably does stem a little bit further back and trying to, yeah, trying to have that, uh, wherewithal to really think about why and be intentional with why you're doing something in your career, whether that's going to university, starting your own thing, doing an apprenticeship, or, yeah, and understanding yourself, what your own form of learning is and your own form of self-improvement is. And I guess you've probably found that for yourself now within this world.

Yeah, I mean, at the beginning it was like like just trial and error. Like you try something, it works, you do more of it, and then you get lost in it. Typically that's what happens, right? And then you become addicted to it. And that was definitely me in year one of business. I was like, growth, growth, growth, growth, more clients, more money, bigger headcount, grow the team, grow the brand, more marketing. And then actually recently I've kind of been on the opposite journey where I've like, I'm de-scaling the business. I'm actually like shrinking the, the scale of the business, um, and that's because I found things that, like, I'm really passionate about within my space. So I've been doing a lot more coaching, one-to-one consultancy, strategy work. I've been doing a lot more kind of fractional CMOing, so, um, I guess more diverse work, going into schools, universities, employers, and speaking to them and doing, you know, talks and sessions with them about branding diversity and inclusion, employability, all those things. So I think now, like, my— I've kind of overcome that pressure of chasing growth in a monetary sense or like a career sense, and I'm more chasing personal growth. Like, okay, how can I build a lifestyle, a work lifestyle, that then allows me to do all the things I want to do? Obviously you need financial security, no doubt, but I also want time freedom. I want flexibility in my schedule. I want to be able to travel and work. I want to work on things that I enjoy, I want to work with people I like. So I think those considerations you don't really think about when you're a student, you think like the best company name I can get and the most money.

Yeah, and I think what's interesting in regards to the place that you're in in your life now and a student is that they're both, in terms of lifestyle, you know, self-employed or, you know, self-motivated to do anything, and I think at uni I definitely was guilty of getting that wrong a lot in terms of prioritising things that weren't conducive to being productive. But ultimately, like, I think the times that I felt most fulfilled in my life, or, you know, really happy, is when I have that perfect balance. So, you know, with students in mind, what would you say is your tips to actually, yeah, being good at working for yourself and, you know, motivating yourself?

I think, like, honestly, finding— figuring out what you want to do, that's the first step. Because when I didn't have an end goal or like a, like a particular objective, everything kind of went into chaos mode. So I was chasing kind of business growth and revenue, and what that meant was my health and well-being was at the worst it's ever been in my life. My social life was the worst it's ever been. Like every other element collapsed. And I realized actually, if you want to build something successful in business, that, you know, you've got to work on yourself as well. And I know sometimes it sounds a little bit wishy-washy because I thought the same thing, but there's a reason why so many entrepreneurs are really invested in like health and fitness and mental health and resilience as well. And that's because the stronger you are, the more disciplined you are, the better habits you have, those translate naturally into your business. So like carving out a routine for you, for example, if we're talking like actionable things, have a specific routine that works for you. Is it the most effective thing to wake up, snooze your alarm 5 times, then get out of bed and just open your laptop and start working? Probably not the most effective way to be productive and get work done. Wake up, my routine is like, I wake up, I exercise, I go outside for a bit, catch some sunlight, I have a coffee, and then I have some breakfast, and then I start work, right? And when I do work, I'm way more efficient, and I say that based on actual data as well. Seeing the performance of mine, I can now do the same amount of work in half the amount of time than I did 2 years ago because I've got really good at eliminating procrastination. That's another big one. Like, it's so easy to procrastinate now. Like, so I use like lots of different techniques. You can lock your phone away, uh, the Pomodoro technique. So you sit for 25 minutes and focus on one specific task. I think multitasking as well is like a killer of productivity because you say, oh, I'm doing loads of things, but you don't really finish anything. And so I hate carrying tasks into the next day. One technique is I have a little piece of paper and I write down 3 things in the morning that I want to get done today. Like, these 3 are my non-negotiables, and I don't go to bed until I've done them. And that then forces you to not, like, get distracted. Oh, this email's coming. Oh, I could do this. Oh, I've seen this, I'm going to do this. No, focus on the 3 things that you set intentionally in the morning, get them done, and then move on to the next because otherwise you just get loads of noise.

Yeah, I think if you apply that in a student context, I think if you're applying for jobs, like, instead of scattergunning and not really knowing exactly why you want to work for the company or why you want to work in that role, use all that time you would have spent scattergunning on really, like, understanding what they do, raising your career awareness, reaching out to people, having coffee chats. I mean, it's the stuff I wish I did, but, um, you know, Luckily, I started this podcast out of desperation because I left it all too late. But my advice back would be very similar to yours in that sense. Um, and my final question to you, which I, I ask every single one of my guests, okay? And it'll be interesting, uh, knowing it based on— yeah, since you've been scaling back your business and trying to understand what makes you happy a bit more in a career sense. But what is your, your definition of success in a career sense?

Definition of success? Ah, that's a big question. I'd love to wake up each day and think I can do whatever I want with this day and not think I've got a meeting at 8, I've got this at 9, I've got this at 10, oh shit, I forgot to do that, I need to do that, I've got this work to do. I'd love to— for me, it's all about freedom and flexibility. Where I have choice, where I have control. So I'm not like, I have to get into the office for X amount of, you know, X time. I can wake up and do things I enjoy when I want to do them. And obviously this is like very— for some people this will seem like unrealistic or idealistic, right? But I think it is completely possible if you go through that initial chaos. I went through it in the first 2 years of my business. Even now I'm still semi going through it, like the chaos of stuff where I don't have choice and I'm like a prisoner to my business, but I'm getting out of it, out of that now. And I think being success— you become successful when you realize that the version of success that you were given is not actually success. And you like redefine it on your own, and that's when you get successful. You say, oh, actually, I don't have to do all these things, I can do this. And now suddenly I'm happy, I'm healthy, I enjoy my day-to-day. Pump success. Love that.

And, uh, and I think, yeah, you've given a really great overview and, uh, done a great job demystifying the world of personal branding. And, uh, I think we kind of forgot to mention that you are also very good at your job and what you do, uh, you know, one of the best, if not the best, that I know. And, um, and yeah, and I think if anybody does want to, after this conversation, go and find out how to sort of excel in this industry, uh, or leverage what you've been saying and check out your LinkedIn. Do you want to plug it?

Yeah, no, I'd be more than happy to. Like, if anyone's got questions, feel free to DM me on LinkedIn. Yeah, I mean, there you go. Everything on the website, 175 million impressions.

There you go. There you go. All right, cheers, mate.