Simon Sprague, MD & Partner @ BCG

Hey everyone, welcome back to The Graduate Guide. Today is a very special day for two reasons. I'm joined for the first time with my co-host Fred, and we've got Managing Director and Partner of BCG, Simon, on the podcast. Simon, how you doing?

Hi, it's great, great to be here. I'm glad we made it happen. I feel very fortunate to be, you know, Freddie's experimental first time, so looking forward to Looking forward to the discussion.

Yeah, yeah. If you could just start off by giving us a quick run-through of your journey to BCG. Yeah, and yeah, your education, your— the bit in between, you did a PhD, and then yeah, yeah, just your, your journey through BCG.

Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is it's a story of kind of not really knowing what I wanted to do at any particular stage and just kind of making it up as I went along. So if you'd told me 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I'd now be at BCG, I probably wouldn't have thought that that was necessarily on the cards. So as you say, I studied chemistry originally. In fact, I studied natural sciences because I didn't know which science I wanted to do, thought I'd make that decision a bit later. So eventually wound up studying chemistry and then didn't really know what to do, but really enjoyed the sort of practical side of things, and so did a PhD. That took me 4 years. Then again, I didn't really know what to do, but I really liked research, so I thought, well, I'd do a couple more years of research, and actually did that over in California, which was very cool. Um, but actually towards the end of that was really, I suppose, where I made the big, uh, change in direction in my career because I realized I got very focused on a, a tiny area of chemistry, one, one or two chemical reactions, um, and wasn't really having that much impact. And I have a lot of friends who stayed in academia, which is great, and they love it and they're set out for it. It wasn't quite for me. And so at that point I started actually thinking back to some of the careers events and so on I'd been to as I was coming through and remembered BCG and sort of felt that I kind of liked the culture and liked the idea of solving problems but on a broader range of topics and in a way that would give more impact. So I joined back in 2012 and I've just kind of stayed there and I started off as a generalist working on all sorts of different industries: retail, energy, social impact, telecoms, all sorts of different stuff, but actually over time I've really specialized in what I now do which is manufacturing and supply chain for pharmaceuticals. So you can imagine it's been a really busy couple of years going through COVID, got to get the vaccine scaled up quickly, got to get the therapeutics into patients' hands as quickly as possible. But also, just because there's a pandemic on doesn't mean people stop having cancer or stop having diabetes or stop having all the other things that they need medicines for. So we've got to be able to make sure that we're de-risking supply of those. And so that's what I do. I spend a lot of time in factories, I've been in some factories earlier this week, and really helping pharma companies to get products where they need to be, with the right level of quality, and, you know, making sure that patients get them. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell.

Wow, very fascinating story, Simon. I'm kind of interested in how your PhD really affected your kind of experience at BCG.

Yeah.

And whether it had a massive beneficial impact.

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there are some instances, maybe about 20% of the time, where I can use my knowledge of chemistry and things I've done actually in practical projects. So we're doing one project, for example, at the moment where a company is moving some of its production processes actually to another facility, and that's obviously hugely complicated, sort of regulations and so on, but also a lot of technical side. So occasionally we get to use the science, but really I think for folks who may be doing a PhD and considering moving out There are lots of skills that you pick up or develop further versus just doing an undergrad or a master's. So I think you get to work on problems that have never been set before. You're not working through a set of questions, you're actually doing brand new research. Sometimes you get that in a master's, but in a PhD it's really extended. I think you have to be really good at explaining complicated things in a simple way. That's really important in, in a job like consulting. And you're also able to be really creative because you're, of course, working on things that no one ever has ever worked on. So you've got to come up with a creative solution. And our clients in consulting are not stupid, they're really smart people and they're often leaders in their field. So if they bring in an outsider, it's got to be because it's a really tough problem or a problem that no one else has faced before. And so many of those attributes and sort of skills that you get from a PhD are really applicable in the field of consulting.

Wow, really.

And I think my next question is just on this topic, is kind of the trade-off between pursuing further education and wanting to get into the private sector. For students that might be watching, kind of debating whether to go and do a master's or trying to do a PhD, do you think it's, do you think it's worth it nowadays? What kind of advice would you have for someone that's debating further education of kind of your caliber, if you like?

Yeah, I mean, I think you have to be guided by a couple of things, right? You have to be guided by where you're trying to go long term. Now, in my case, I had no idea. Right? And I've just sort of done this not completely random walk, but at every point where there was a decision, I looked at all the information and I made the best decision at that point, right? Now, I could have done a much more direct route into consulting if I'd known at the beginning, but actually I'd have missed out on a lot of really cool experiences, so I don't think that would have been the right path for me. My view on PhDs: I think if you love your subject, if you really want to spend some focused time exploring it, whether it's arts, whether it's sciences, and you have a topic that really interests you, go for it. It's an incredible experience, and I would never want to deter anyone from doing that. I would also say it doesn't have to lead into an academic career, don't have to stay in academia. You can branch out into other things, you can go into industry, you can go into something like consulting. So if you love your subject and you really want to do more, do it. But, but I would encourage people to not see it as a sort of strategic move that's going to be a master plan to get into some other kind of career. It's a big commitment. If you love it, do it, but don't do it lightly, and I wouldn't use it as a sort of clever way of getting, you know, the upper hand in careers, I would say.

Doing a PhD is the step after university, and I think by the time you were looking to work at BSG, you would have diversified yourself and you probably look different to the usual person who might be applying to BSG. I think everyone knows that to get into a company like BCG, you need to do the spring weeks, you need to do summer internships, but there's also a lot of other things that you need to do to try and make yourself stand out. So while you're at university, what are some things that people can be thinking about doing that will help them stand out?

Good, good question. I mean, it's interesting to see you say you need to do the spring weeks. I didn't do the spring weeks. You need to do a summer internship. You didn't. I didn't do summer internship. So there are lots of paths, and I think even— because one of the hats that I wear at BCG is I look after our recruiting for the London office, particularly associates and consultants— and we have actively, in the 11 years that I've been at BCG, we've actively really pushed to get more diverse backgrounds applying and then successful through our process and then successful once they join BCG. So I don't think it is true anymore that there is only one route in. We hire people from all sorts of different backgrounds, all sorts of different universities. I mean, our breadth of university intake is totally different from where it was even 7 or 8 years ago, but certainly 11 years ago, and we're really focusing on diversity— of course gender, of course ethnicity, of course making colleagues from LGBT backgrounds feel comfortable and set up— but also looking into things like social mobility, making sure that we're leveling the playing field for universities where maybe the career service is not so set up for helping people to be successful in consulting. So I think this idea that there is one path is just not true anymore. Having said that, what can you do practically to make yourself attractive to a consulting company while you're at university? I think showing passion and focus and excellence in something— of course your studies, but beyond your studies is really important. Does that have to be a student consulting society? Absolutely not. Does that have to be focused on business and finance and economics? Absolutely not. So we're looking for really something where you can focus, take a leadership role, develop some skills and make some impact, and that might be a society, it might be music, drama, sports, it could be volunteering, it could be something within your field that's sort of associated to your degree, We just want to see that sort of hunger, that ability to deliver impact, take leadership roles, and deliver something, and it doesn't have to be purely focused on consulting.

You mentioned that you kind of, you have a big role in the consultancy and the hiring process. So do you think there's any significant changes, you know, for example, AI, the kind of political and economic backdrop, which is, you know, rather turbulent at the moment, is really changing the way that companies such as BCG are hiring? In the next couple of years or into the future?

Yeah, so I think we've definitely— and it's probably started 6, 7 years ago— but we've definitely broadened the scope of skills that we're looking for. So not necessarily within our core generalist consulting cohort, but probably 7, 8 years ago we launched what's now called BCG X, which is our digital and data services arm. So we're now looking for, of course, data scientists, data engineers, those that can build the AI tools of the future. Do we require it across the whole organization? No, but you get to work as a generalist consultant hand in hand with those sorts of folks, so you can do things that are not just Excel and, you know, really push the boundaries of the sort of solutions we can bring to our clients. So for sure, you know, it's slightly shifted, but we're also still looking for lots of core generalist consultants that have sort of intellectual curiosity and ability to solve problems.

Amazing. What kind of soft skills and personalities do you really look for at BCG for people, or is it kind of just a broad—

So I think we're definitely looking for the sort of people that we want to work with, right? The sort of people that can interact with our clients, can get to know and care about the client's problems, and also can help deliver change. Because I think one of the things that clients often struggle with is they've got the technical expertise, they kind of know what the answer is, But actually, change is very difficult for any organisation, and it's difficult for a whole range of reasons. It's different in every situation. It may be multiple complex dynamics within one project, and actually helping to deliver change is somewhere where sometimes external support, such as, you know, a company like BCG, can be really helpful. Now, to be able to help folks change, you require that sort of, I don't know what, secret sauce almost, in the way that you interact with people so that they trust you, so that they feel heard, they feel that you're empathizing with them, and you can actually adjust the way that you deliver something to make sure that they feel taken care of, that the end result is the right thing for the client, but also that individuals and teams within the organization don't feel totally sort of dislocated and broken apart by the change. So I think there's some soft skills in there that we we'd look for.

Wow, amazing, thank you. In terms of attracting clients, you know, they mentioned they have large in-house expertise and, you know, they're experts in their field, if you like. I'm quite interested, what's kind of the big value proposition for BCG going to, you know, maybe a big picture company?

Yes, so I mean, it varies and it depends on the problem that they're facing. Sometimes there will be specific technical expertise that we can bring that they don't yet have in their company, and I suppose one area which we touched on a little bit already is brand new technologies. You know, GenAI didn't really exist 12 months ago, actually 12 months-ish ago, and now already we're helping clients to sort of navigate where that, where that sits. Many companies have not really built the muscle in topics like climate and sustainability, so we can help to bring that and help guide them through that transition. Again, a lot of change to be made, so there's obviously a soft side to that as well. So for some, it's the expertise In other cases, they just need more bandwidth, right? They're completely overwhelmed and they need some extra arms and legs to help accelerate things and make sure that things stay on track. And then thirdly, often there's capabilities that they don't particularly have, and what we always try and do is to avoid making our clients dependent on us. So we try and make sure that we're upskilling their people, we're leaving the tools, the methodologies, whatever it is, so that it's not just a book that goes on a shelf, but it's something that their people live and then can then cascade down through the organization. So ideally you're leaving them such that they don't need consultants in that area, you know, and actually you fixed it and embedded the capabilities. So there's a variety of things.

On the topic of AI, so I think one of the problems that might come with AI is you lose authenticity of voice. Maybe it's online or in the actual advice that you're supplying company, for example. If we like talk about this, in a student format. I think when you go into an interview, you're obviously very nervous and you want to make the best impression of yourself, and you would have done all this prep. And how important is it to go into that interview and just still just try and be yourself and be authentic yourself in terms of employer's perspective?

It's so important, right? Uh, and, and I think often, I mean, it's immediately obvious when someone has— and I did 14 interviews last week, right? And the The ones that I remember most vividly and who were the most successful were the people that came in with and were themselves. And it's immediately obvious when people have really over-prepared and kind of wound themselves up so much that, oh well, there's 3 things to think about and it's this and this and this and blah blah blah, and it's almost every word has been scripted in front of the mirror. So I would encourage people to relax and realize that we are not looking for one type of person. We're also pretty good about figuring out the people we want to interview because we don't have time to interview everyone, sadly. We'd love to. And so if you've made it there to the first round or to subsequent rounds, have confidence that we really want to know about you. We've read everything on the paper, we really like it, and so you've earned your place there. And start from there, right? It's not an accident, you didn't sneak through, Imposter syndrome is a real thing, right? And I think it affects people from different backgrounds very differently. So I just want to reassure, and I'm sure other companies would say the same, if we've picked your CV out and you've got an interview, that's not an accident, and we want to hear about you. We don't want you to come in and try and be someone that you're not. I think specifically for consulting, certainly at the more junior levels, We don't expect you to be an expert in economics or business or anything. I didn't have any kind of background like that and I've somehow snuck through, don't know how, but it's really important that people come in and show us how they would solve a problem. We don't want 35,000 people that all solve problems exactly the same way. The way we get to really good answers is by having people with different backgrounds, different experiences, working together to solve those problems. If you put, you know, 5 identikit people who've done exactly the same degree and had it from exactly the same university and had exactly the same experience into a room, they will get to an answer. If you mix together people with lots of different backgrounds, different degrees, different experiences outside of their studies together, you'll get such— so much better answer. And that's exactly what we're looking for. So Authenticity, absolutely critical, and it's so refreshing, you know, in a whole day of interviews, that person that just comes in as is themselves, it really shines, it really shines. You don't have to be the most polished, you don't have to use all the jargon, just come in and be yourself.

Imposter syndrome is something that I end up talking a lot about on this podcast, and because it is very important, and I feel like you can look at it quite negatively, and it can be the thing that makes or breaks you. And if we look at it in a career sense, okay, so you, you enter consulting as a graduate, and then you need to somehow, amongst other people that are more experienced, deliver an opinion and give advice to bigger companies that are more experienced. That's obviously a lot of imposter syndrome you've got to overcome. Yeah. And even if you look at your career, like, you know, coming from a chemistry background and then, you know, rising through the ranks at BCG, what's your advice to, yeah, really harnessing and taking imposter syndrome head-on to actually produce a better result?

Yeah, and to be clear, I still get imposter syndrome even now, right? I've been at BCG 11 years, I focus on an area that I now by this stage know quite well, and I still get those meetings where I think, oh, help, I'm out of my depth here. I think you've got to remember you're not a one-person company, right? And you've always got the team around you to support you. You've always got those experts to pull on, and certainly one of the things I've appreciated most about BCG is we have a culture of not just it being okay to ask for help, but it being expected that you ask for help, particularly at the beginning. But even now, I will ask our experts, can you explain, I didn't quite get this bit, can you explain it to me? So In that way, you've got the sort of safety net of being part of a bigger organization, part of a team, and I think that's, that's one aspect to it. But then I think you've also got to manage your own expectations because you are not the first person that has joined the company with the level of experience you have, and everyone else has done just fine. So some people have stayed a short time, some people have stayed a really long time, but people make it work, so why would you be any different? And just pace yourself. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "Oh my goodness, I've got to know everything immediately, otherwise people are going to find me out," but this is a gradual process. And any career, whether you stay in one place or you move around different places over the course of your career, is a marathon. And so just pace yourself, realise you're not going to know everything at the beginning, but that that's okay, and that you've got a lot of support around you.

So moving on from imposter syndrome, another thing that I quite like to talk about is kind of motivation, finding meaning in a career.

Yeah.

So, you know, first of all, what kind of motivates you to work at BCG?

Yeah, so we have amazing teams, we have a great culture of folks who really look out for each other, and I feel a really strong responsibility to my teams. And so making sure that they are happy, have a sustainable career, are fulfilled, are learning, and are doing meaningful work is what kind of drives me on that side of things. And then on the other side, I think, you know, there are huge problems with being able to get medicines into the hands of patients at the right price, on time, with the right level of quality, without compliance issues, avoiding getting stuck in a warehouse somewhere. And so by solving all of those problems, ultimately more patients are getting the medicines they need and in a reliable fashion and in a, you know, cost-effective— I know there's a big focus on cost at the moment, of course, with the cost of living crisis. So actually helping pharma companies to unlock that flow of medicines, to me, whether it's something linked to COVID, whether it's other medicines that people need, you know, more ongoing basis, sort of drives its own fulfilment as well. And often, of course, there's, you know, financial benefit to companies, But we often measure success in how many patients have we helped, right? And that's a really tangible thing.

Of course.

And I think if you was speaking to an undergraduate student who doesn't really know which— to try and get banking, consulting, startups— what do you think is the key to finding a fulfilling career?

I think you've got to figure out what it is that's going to make— and this can sound really waffly and awful, right? But this is a talk I've given many times to people who are weighing up different options. You've got to figure out what is going to make you happy, right? And create your own sort of measuring stick. And it might be salary, it might be the prestige of the company, it might be culture, it might be the type of work, it might be lifestyle, travel, not travel, you know, you figure it out. And ideally get it down to those 2 or 3 things that are most important to you. And then you can weigh up the options against those. Now that sounds a really fluffy answer, But it's— but people don't split the decision into those two stages. What they do is they look at all their options and they write pros and cons. Problem with pros and cons is you can cheat really easily because, oh, I'll just add some more pros to this one, because psychologically you sort of have an idea of which one you really want to do, but you're kind of blocking yourself. And actually, pros and cons don't really help. So better to come up with your own little measuring stick of what's going to make you happy. And I use that word deliberately because happiness is really important, and ideally this is a long-term thing. And it may be that money makes you happy, in which case no judgment, but just put it on the paper because otherwise you're sort of dancing around. So I think that's, that's how I would think about the problem. And then the only other behavior that I experienced moving from academia into consulting, and I think a lot of folks experience as they're weighing up different options, is this idea of, well, I ought to do something, right? So I've done 10 years of chemistry, I ought to stay in chemistry. Or actually this company really rolled out the red carpet to me and they were so helpful, so I ought to do that. And actually life is too short to sort of rely on this sort of feeling of obligation to do a particular thing. And you need to slightly decouple that. You can still weigh it up, but I would decouple it because it's very easy. And I went through so many cycles of, oh, I ought to stay in chemistry, I ought to stay in chemistry. It's very easy to fall into that trap and end up doing something you're not going to be happy with. So I would just encourage people to try and recognize that behavior and separate it.

I think when most people think of the type of person goes into consulting, they think maybe economics degree background, and nope. And one thing that I found out recently is that actually, like, engineering is one of the most desirable degrees, and yeah, for a consulting firm. And I think you know, the, the way the British schooling system is, is that if you're really good at something, you're told, okay, you're really good at that, so pick that university. And then you're doing a university, and say, say it's biology and you go to medicine, then you've got a 7-year medicine course. And it's like you're not really challenged to ever think what else you could be good at or what you could do. And I feel like to become the best consultant, you have to have that diversity of education. So If some advice, you know, we talked about actual work experience for a CV, but actually just in like getting your brain in the best place to be a good consultant, what do you think of some, yeah, some, some, yeah, activities or courses that people could take while at university?

Yeah, um, I mean, I think the reality, to pick up on your earlier point, I think the reality is any subject is a good way into consulting, right? So I wouldn't want people to feel— if you look at our— we have a pie chart of the subjects people have studied, and it really is a very even mix, including some courses that you would expect are super vocational, like medicine, like law. Of course you're going to go into medicine, you're going to go into law. Well, no, actually there is an option, and I'm not trying to pull lots of doctors away from the NHS, but there are options irrespective of whatever degree you've done to come in and do consulting. We need a certain level of quantitative know-how, but I would not say it's much beyond GCSE. Right, because ultimately you're going to be using Excel, you're going to be using Alteryx and other tools, and you'll get lots of training in those. It's really how you manipulate data and think about numbers that is still important, and of course that's part of our assessment process through, through the case studies. What else can you do at university to, to sort of build on those skills? I mean, think about the skills that we're looking for ability to solve problems, work in a team, lead organisations or groups, you can get those experiences from pretty much anywhere, right? And you could just as— there are lots of really great student societies that we hear about where they've set up a not-for-profit and they've run a project in wherever, Africa, to increase access to education because they were passionate about it. But over the course of that, they've had to solve all sorts of different problems and work as a team and overcome various obstacles. All of those things are going to help you in consulting. So that's another unhelpful answer, but I would think about the skills first rather than the specific activities, and then where can you get them, but also where can you get them in something you're going to be passionate about, because it immediately comes across if you're talking about a student consulting society that you joined because you thought you had to to get into consulting, and actually you're kind of not that passionate about it. Could you— I'm not for one second discouraging people from doing student consulting, It's fantastic, some of them are incredible, but also think about are there other places you could get those same experiences and skills.

This is a very simplistic question, but it's one I'm always curious the answer. What do you think is the most basic definition of consulting, the word consulting, to consult?

So I think we solve big problems where the client wants external support. That's a simplistic answer, and some of the factors that we discussed a moment ago are the reasons why they would come externally. They want an independent viewpoint, they want additional capabilities they don't have, it's a new area, it's complicated, they're already really busy running the business, they need some support in changing it, the change management of what they need to achieve is just too much. So those are the factors, but ultimately we are solving a very specific problem for a very specific client.

Do you think the reason why some people might perceive consulting as inaccessible is not really truly understanding what it is? Yeah, because, and actually, one thing I've learned as well recently about consulting, for ages I just thought it's like, you know, the likes of BCG, McKinsey, whatever, but actually it's really anyone. It could be in any industry, huge market, food consultant, you could be an architectural consultant. So Yeah, I mean, when you're actually in BCG and you, you've chosen consultancy, you've graduated, you know, you've started your role, I think what's some ways that people can really find out their sort of own style of consultancy and what they like to consult on within BCG?

Yeah, um, and you're right, the market is huge, and I'm, I'm really only talking about management consulting, and even that market is huge. So you have what we would call boutique players that are focused on one or two industries or one or two types of work. So they might be real experts in consumer products pricing. And if you're a consumer products company and you want to know how to price your products appropriately and do markdowns and all that sort of thing, they're the real experts to go to on that specific topic. And then you've got the other end, the folks who do lots of different industries, lots of different types of work— some of the names you've mentioned, including BCG. So I think really having an idea about the sort of level of certainty that you have about your focus and some other things like culture, which I think really cut across the cultures vary quite substantially— will help to guide folks to the type of consulting. What we've tried to do over the last few years with our recruiting is also to make consulting a bit more tangible, so to give much more detail on a specific project. We do events on climate and sustainability, and we'll have folks talking through specific products with projects with quite a lot of detail so that you understand what we did. We do case study events where you can work through and solve the problem. Obviously it's a simplified version, but you can solve the problem with us, so you get an idea of the sort of things that we do. Because I think you're right, it's very hard, as I've just illustrated, but it's very hard to describe concretely what we do, because unfortunately it's that age-old consultant phrase, "It depends," right? It depends. Well, it depends. It depends on what the client wants, depends on the context, depends on— and that's really irritating, but unfortunately it is the truth.

One relationship I'm quite interested in is kind of the relationship between the public sector and the private sector. And you mentioned kind of COVID and then sustainability. Do you think the public sector and the private sector could work better together to solve these kind of big problems, especially sustainability?

Yeah, I'm quite sure. And, and, uh, I mean, to pick up on sustainability directly, I mean, you, you may have read, so we're one of the consulting partners for COP28, also 27 and 26, uh, before that And we've done a lot. I think we've taken a multi-prong approach on climate and sustainability. So some of it is work with not-for-profits through COP20, the COPs, but also through partnerships with World Economic Forum, World Wildlife Fund and others. But then we're also doing a lot of work with the private sector. And if you look at where all the emissions come from, I mean, yes, some is attributable to the public sector, but a lot comes from the private sector. And so they are the folks that need to decarbonize. And I, you know, nearly all companies see this as a major priority, but it's just complicated. So if I take the industry I work in most, which is pharmaceuticals, you may be aware there's different scopes of emissions, right? So you Scope 1, which is what you generate when you do your activity, you manufacture something, that's your carbon emission. Scope 2 is the energy that you use, so you've used electricity from an external support source, that's Scope 2. Now those two are kind of under your control. The problem, certainly for pharmaceuticals, is Scope 3. So the Scope 3 is all your raw materials or your inputs. And you can imagine for something where you're making a pill or a syringe, a huge amount of the emissions is tied up in that Scope 3. And that's really complicated for private companies to have to deal with. So pharma, it's between 70 and 90%, might be there, and therefore not fully under your control. And so then you've got to work with your suppliers and you've got to have a whole rethink about how you buy stuff— chemicals, solvents, all these building materials, all that sort of stuff. It's really complicated, particularly when you're right down in the long tail of suppliers where you're buying hardly anything from them. Why are they going to work with you, right? So you've got to totally rethink how you work with your suppliers to be able to decarbonize. Otherwise, you can only touch this tiny bit at the top, which is sort of 10, 20, 30%. So I think therefore, you know, the private sector does really need to focus on this. It's good to hear some commitments coming, perhaps not quite as much as we would want. But then, you know, I don't think we're ever going to feel that we're going fast enough. But I think it's really vital that all these parties work together, but also focus on their own emissions.

Yeah, I think one thing that I'm quite curious about as well is the UK is not a massive emitter in global terms of, you know, in terms of contributors to climate, the climate disaster. How do the companies like yours that so focus on climate change kind of deal with the fact that most of the polluting is, you know, happening elsewhere? Is there kind of a long-term plan at BCG about how you can resolve that?

Yeah, so I mean, we work globally. I suppose we are including in big polluters, you know, some of the bigger economies in the world. We've put our money where our mouth is, so, you know, we've made a strong commitment on our net zero ambitions. Which we did back in 2017, I think, so we've— and we're hitting it, you know, and that's translated into really practical things. So every single week I get a report with my carbon footprint, right, and it shows which flights I took, what the carbon footprint is, how it compares to the rest of the company, how it compares to me 2, 3 years ago, which was our baseline. You know, we're really trying to be very pragmatic and practical. I also think though, when you specifically talk about the UK, without getting too political, The UK has a strong voice. You can argue about how strong a voice these days, but we have a strong voice and I think we need to be championing by our words and by our actions global decarbonisation in forums like COP28, but also in other forums and using that diplomacy to encourage others to do the same.

This podcast usually focuses on more alternate career paths, uh, just try and, yeah, raise that awareness of what you can do with your degree, for example. But actually, within consulting, I feel like there's some new roles that have come about that actually need some awareness to be shed on them, such as, you know, head of ESG. Every big company now has one of those. Um, and I feel like if I use my, um, my housemate as a case study, he'll be joining BCG. He's gone to a climate tech startup in the meantime before he joins. And, and, you know, he's clearly got his passion, yeah, for climate, and he's going to be entering into BCG. What is the, the path then from, you know, you graduate to actually maybe becoming a head of ESG at a company like BCG?

Yeah, so we— I tend to think we have quite a, um, a fluid career path. So yes, if you stay in generalist consulting, there are various layers that you, you move up through. So associate, Senior Associate Consultant. They're doing roles—Project Leader, Principal Partner. They're the sort of management roles, and then the Managing Directors, which is the sort of senior leadership that, that own client relationships. But as you say, we've also got lots of other paths, and actually mobility within a company like BCG, I think, is pretty good. So people do switch office. So I went to New Jersey for a year in 2016, for example, But folks will also move into particular areas, and it's very possible to move out of consulting into what we call our business services team, as many people do, and then move back in. So they might move into our teaming— team coaches area, they might move into another role, for example, looking at BCG's own ESG commitments and supporting that. So it's absolutely possible to move fluidly around the company and around the globe for that matter, if you want to sort of chart your own career path that's a bit different. Folks also go away and then come back, so we sponsor, for example, MBAs. They'll go to an MBA and come back. Many folks will go into industry for a bit and come back. Some people even go and do a PhD and come back, so it's not a sort of one and done for the whole of your career. There's plenty of opportunities to move around within BCG or go away and then come back, or, or go away and move on something else. We have something like 25,000 alumni and very strong connections to them in their new roles. And for example, our Careers Service is open to all alumni, so even 10 years, 15 years down the road, we've still got a Careers Service that can help folks to navigate and think about their careers.

There's going to be a bunch of first-year, second-year students maybe at London University right now sitting there thinking, wow, this sounds amazing, like, I really want to go into this industry, I really want to work for PwC. But then there might be someone in their third year, yeah, they've not done much work experience, maybe they had a breakup in first year and they got— they lost themselves for a bit.

And it's quite a specific example, for example, yeah.

All of a sudden, you know, you're sat there in third year, you've got a degree, it's finished, you're like, I didn't even— you know, it's— I think it's too late for me to go into consulting, or at least into the company that I want to. And then one thing I think maybe people don't really think about is that you can enter that at any point, absolutely, as you did. So what would be your advice to someone that knows that maybe that's an end goal but they've just missed the mark of like the traditional summer internship graduate scheme?

Yes, um, so you're right, it's never too late. Um, we get a lot of applications from folks who maybe graduated 12 months ago So broadly, early in your career up to 2 years after graduating, you still go into the, what we call, our milk round. So in the autumn, we have a big hiring round for university graduates, also PhDs and postdocs and so on, and that takes place in October. So I would say, look, look at next October if you haven't been successful this time, and think about what you can use that year 4, people will go off and get another job, maybe do some voluntary work if they can afford to, go traveling, you know, really help themselves to focus, think about how they can build their skills, and then consider reapplying. We also get a lot of applications for folks who go and do something else for a couple of years, maybe they got a job offer, they was considering consulting, or, you know, they went to another consulting firm but actually had, you know, really wanted to join BCG, and we welcome them, you know, again with open arms, Again, up to 2 years they'd come in with the university round, after that they can come in as a Senior Associate or a Consultant, and that's a bit more of a rolling basis. So I think there's lots of options, and I would encourage people to keep their options a little bit open and not pin all their hopes on one or two options and think, oh my goodness, if I don't get either of these, you know, I'm really failing, because I think sometimes you will, whether it's within BCG or whether it's between different companies, you will find that the thing you thought you didn't want actually, when it sort of comes to pass, is actually a pretty great fit. So I would just encourage people to stay open-minded as they're thinking about different careers they might want.

So BCG's got an amazing alumni network, you know, people like John Legend and big CEOs, you know, the breadth is enormous. What kind of skills and experiences do you think sets these people who have left BCG, or even people like yourselves who have remained at BCG?

To such amazing career, I guess, the entrepreneurship especially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we're not all singers as good as, as good as John Legend, but I think, I think a career like consulting teaches you how to think, how to structure problems and solve them in a systematic way, and then how to work in teams, often in complicated environments. And so I suppose that sets you up for, you know, success in those sorts of fields. I also think it encourages and forces you to be quite creative, and so you see a lot of folks, including a lot of my former colleagues, who go off and start these startups, and they're hugely successful because they've sort of been thinking in the back of their minds as they're doing consulting, ah, that's an interesting unmet need, or that's a problem that people have that perhaps a startup could address. So I suppose it gets the creative juices flowing as well.

Yeah, one thing that I'm curious about, uh, with, with the whole sort of world of consulting is that I think people think when you pick, say, startups as your first route out of, um, university is that you, you'll be able to do a load of different things like branding and marketing and, and, you know, basically just get a more well-rounded experience of what— yeah. Career options there are. But, but I feel like actually having spoken to some people within the consulting world, and maybe this isn't necessarily how it always comes across to people at university, but consulting really is a broad, you know, thing to improve your skill sets. And, you know, if we use, okay, let's say branding as an example, how does that aspect come into consulting that people might not have anticipated?

Yeah, so I mean, it will slightly depend on the type of consultant that you're working with. But certainly we do projects where a client is looking to launch a new product and wants to understand the brand that's appropriate and that's going to speak to customers and how to sell it to them. So what are the key features, how does it compare with the competition, that sort of competitive analysis, so that you can then get into a brand that really speaks to people. And, you know, it's not an area— it's an area I touched on very early in my time at BCG. I haven't worked in much recently, but, you know, we're also involved in that primary research to understand what consumers really want and to cut through. We've got all sorts of techniques to cut through to what they actually want rather than what they say they want, which is obviously often not the same thing. Not that they're being just deceitful or anything, but sometimes there are sort of subtle thought processes going on around why someone is attracted to a brand that they may not even realize themselves. And so we try to help cut through to allow companies to sort of channel that. So again, I'm afraid it depends on the specific project, but there are certainly projects that we would do in that sort of area, thinking about how you market a particular product, which may include branding as one aspect of it.

Yeah, so when you were doing your PhD, you might have had some preconceptions of what consulting was like before you went into it. What do you think is the biggest misconception that you had before that was proven wrong from your time there?

So, I really thought it was very high level and fluffy and waffly and sort of you schmooze and then it's all fine, right? And actually, I went to a, I think it was called the Strategy School, I don't think it exists anymore because this was 15 years ago or whenever, that BCG ran. It was just before my PhD, and it was a 2-day thing, and actually we got to work on some real problems, and I realized quite how analytical and specific and targeted it was. And I think one of the difficulties that folks have sometimes with working out what consulting is, is they don't have a specific project to focus on. And so then, of course, because every project is so different, it feels very vague and nebulous. But actually, in the context of a very specific project there's a really laser-focused question to be answered, some very specific things that we need to deliver to the client, and, you know, we work on that and we refine those over the course of time. But of course, in the context where you haven't got a specific project to think about, it can feel like, oh, well, they sort of do whatever, and actually that's just not true. It's just that you need a specific example to crystallize on and then be really specific about. So that's certainly something, even before I joined BCG, that I became aware of, and actually through the interview process, because our interview process involves these case studies where you work on a real problem that your interviewer has solved as a case, and so then it's immediately laser-focused on a specific question, and I think that helps to explain a bit more what consulting really is.

I think you've been really great at giving a really well-rounded sort of assessment of the type of person that might want to go into consulting, what to expect, what to be good at, you know, how to improve yourself to get into it, but I just want to know from you personally, you know, in the position that you are in now and even on your way up, like, why did you just love it? Like, what made you just come in every day and just want to keep doing it? You know, just take everything else out of it, just what made you love it?

It's the people I get to work with, and that's both in the BCG side but also on the client side. You get to work with really smart people who I think in the BCG culture take the commitment to each other and the commitment to the work way more seriously than they take themselves. So I have a very early memory, I think it was we'd just all received our job offers and they'd brought someone into the office to sort of welcome people and congratulate them, and the then partner, who's still at BCG in fact, walked in and said, 'So, anyone feeling there might be an administrative error and they don't really deserve to be here?' 'And every single hand went up.' And that told me I'd found my tribe because— and of course it was a joke— but I think what you have is a room full of really awesome people that are not going to spend every 2 minutes telling you how awesome they are. And that's a really great culture to have because people just work and support each other really effectively, and there's no sort of competition in terms of pointy elbows and people trying to push others out their way. Because that's not how our business model works, and in fact it's better for me if you are also successful, and so people lift each other up, and that's a really great culture, I think, to live in. So it's a mix of the culture, but then the people are what make the culture, of course.

My final question to you, I ask all my guests the same question, when you first graduated from, you know, maybe your PhD and you entered BSG, you would have had a certain idea of what a successful career would look like to you. Now, however many years on and being a managing director and a partner, what is your definition of a successful career?

I think it's something that's fulfilling in the long term and allows you to have an awesome life outside of work.

You've been great, thank you.

Thank you so much, well done for your first time. But it was great to meet you both, thanks for having me. Simon, thanks so much for coming out.

Thank you.